Option to view updated sprites differently

[skwerl56767]

Hm, my position hasn't really changed... the lineages you guys just posted all still look fine to me. Sure, the focus was moved from the paired dragons to the Silvers, but I trend toward an optimistic view of the dragons they were paired with getting updates later on, effectively rivaling these new sprites. And even if they don't, I still don't see the loss.

As for the poll, I was referring to the fact that the option that received the most votes was this: "Total overhaul with completely new lines and shading [likely the same pose as the originals]". As an artist myself, I interpret that as it says; a complete overhaul where most of the fumbles of the old art are lost, including the things other people may have loved about the dragons(like the specific scale coloration), keeping only the essentials so it's not like an entirely new species of dragon. Of course, if you lump together the other two options, that would be the majority, but those options aren't together. Also I was counting out anybody who didn't vote for any reason. This does make polls less valuable, but they're not entirely inaccurate; their accuracy simply relies on who votes and who doesn't.

 

I can agree that the beauty-to you guys-was lost because just enough changed that what you were trying to showcase in the lineages were then removed. All I can say to that though is to wrap those lineages up and start making new ones, so you're not disappointed in your work. There isn't really a better option... maybe a simpler solution would be to ask LadyLyzar/Pokemonfan13 if they're willing to edit the new Silvers so they preserve some of the features of the old ones? I doubt that would happen though, and even if it did, if it would help with the lineages in any way.

Again, still think the lineages are still beautiful, but the best thing to do-as much work as it is-would be to start even more pretty lineages that the Silvers compliment, instead of "ruin".

 

Edited to answer PK13: I mentioned you because I saw your name in the credits. I figured you and Lyz had cooperated on them, but I wasn't involved in the process so who knows.

Edited December 6, 2015 by skwerl56767

[Pokemonfan13]

I have no idea why my name is mentioned above. They're Lyz's babies and if I touched them I couldn't do anything but harm. ^^;

[Fuzzbucket]

Edit: Thank you, Herk, you hit it on the nail. Objectively the new silvers are a lot prettier than the old--even to me! But at the same time, they are a much more drastic change than the hollies / splits were, and my lines no longer what they once were. Most of my female silver lines relied on her pink mane, which didn't change much, and those lines are fine--but most of my male silver lines relied on the previous color heavily and that's totally gone now. I could have enjoyed making new lines with the new silvers if only they hadn't totally replaced what I'd already built with something else. Where others see pretty, I see loss.

Exactly this. While some new lineages would now look better than they would have before - several older ones look - much less attractive. And maybe we build new lineages with these new silvers - and 5 years down the line there's another update that changes the look of those in a negative way.

 

The issue is primarily the linage view, and I'm sure that could be fixed to a degree by shifting the dragons a bit in the tiles. Some colour issues would remain, but still, much better..

[Twilight Dream]

I have nothing to do on this game but work on my lineages, and I build those on the dragons I find the prettiest. Silvers used to be my favourites and I had so many gorgeous lineages with them...they were the only ones I reliably bred. Now I hate at least half of my lineages if not more because they are NOT what I bred in the first place. I hate the new Silvers next to just about any dragon that isn't overly shiny. I would love to be able to enjoy DC again through being able to revert back to having the old dragon on my scroll.

 

Don't get me wrong, the sprites are lovely. They are just not what I fell in love with, not what I invested my entire gameplay on.

[SharonLilly]

I've been on DC for a bit over 4 years now. It is kind of a record for me to stay on one game for so long. I can confidently say that the only reason that I did stay on for so long is because of 'lineages'.

 

I know that this is not the case for everyone, not just from reading posts on the forums, but also at a Korean DC fansite that I hang out at. I've seen people collecting dragons just because they like how a specific sprite looks, people who tend to raise only 'gifted' dragons, and others who play it sort of like a role-play game by giving dragons personalities and such.

 

Now, I am upset at the silver update because it directly affects my lineage projects with silvers, and I have quite a number of them. As a player who played solely for making lineages, I believe I should be allowed to feel upset at such changes.

 

On previous posts, I've read the comments to ADP's lineage examples, and I am really disappointed at the posts that seem to say 'it looks good why are you complaining?' . Everyone has a different way of viewing things, and as many maaany people are stating, art is subjective. Saying that art is subjective, but the older sprites were ugly and that is a fact, is a contradiction. If I spent all the time and effort collecting and breeding in order to make that lineage, I think I would feel pretty justified in saying that I am not happy with the changes. If I did not think the pairing looked good, I wouldn't have started it in the first place, spending years to make it.

 

Yesterday, I showed my some of silver lineages to my friends (with moonstones, blue nebulas, purple nebulas, blacks, pinks, reds, blusangs - my goals are always 6th-gen or higher, so the ones here that are of a lower-gen are unfinished, and most likely have a bunch of 2nd-4th gens to be bred). Some of them, I think can get used to the change, but they still don't look right to me. When I started them, earliest being over 3 years ago, I had specific images in mind, and now they look different. I wouldn't have started them in the first place if I knew this was how they would look like in the future.

 

I find that saying that others tastes are inferior because they do not like how silvers look now (whether as lineages or not) is just rude. Please don't do that.

 

 

To the main point of the topic. I thought of something similar, and if such a function actually is implemented, I guess I would use it, but I don't think it will be implemented. And I am not entirely sure as to how much successful it would be to calm down the upset users. Plus, I believe there will be people wouldn't like the function, so it may just cause more unease.

[Keileon]

Mmph. Honestly, with the coding involved, the infrequency of updates, and the wondrous ability the internet gives you to save an image on your computer, I don't find this necessary.

 

I understand lineage woes, but it's so much work for so little return that it's just not worth it. Coding is hard, harder than a lot of people really like to acknowledge. The more complex your code, the more likely something is to break, and the more variables you have to consider when changing any one thing even remotely related.

 

And I may not be a sprite artist, but I am a digital artist, and seeing my work from even two years ago makes me cringe to the point where I will actively redraw the image if I liked the concept enough. When it comes to sprite updates in general, artists should never have to justify their reasons for wanting to update a sprite. The Silvers are an interesting case as the rework was done by someone other thn the original spriter, but the original spriter more likely than not gave her permission.

 

In the end, it's the decision of the artists and TJ.

[Ashes The Second]

I would like this option and can't imagine it being too hard considering things like leetle trees have automatic updates. a toggleable one shouldn't be horrendously impossible, since the site wouldn't need to generate the new image all but one time, and that's because it's not stored in the cache the first time its viewed.

[NotBambi]

I would like this option and can't imagine it being too hard considering things like leetle trees have automatic updates. a toggleable one shouldn't be horrendously impossible, since the site wouldn't need to generate the new image all but one time, and that's because it's not stored in the cache the first time its viewed.

I'm quite puzzled by your "can't imagine it being too hard" and I must assume you never coded in your life. The cache isn't the point, the images databases are. The OP's suggestion assumes that every one of the several thousands of users would be able to decide which sprite would be shown for each breed. Not just the coding but the relative maintenance would be a nightmare. Considering how many suggestions are out there, many of them requested years ago, how do you justify prioritizing this one? And this is ignoring what TJ already stated: old sprites are gone.

 

Edit: by the way do you realize that little trees show the same image on EVERY scroll?

In case someone forgot:

That's not how that works. I am quite confident in saying that the cost-reward ratio of this being an optional feature is not worth the effort (especially given the general infrequency of sprite updates), because something such as this definitely adds a lot of complexity to all parts of the process (each of the three categories I mentioned in the linked post).

[Agwyn]

I can see where TJ and the coding side comes from, it would be very difficult and add tones of variables; a logistics nightmare.

 

That all being said, let me toss my Canadian 2 cents in here.

 

I feel 'meh' about the 'updated' Silvers right off. I logged in today and was like 'what happened? This was not what I picked for my Silver X Black & Silver X Shadow'. So I poked into the forums and noticed a few people seemed to feel how I did and for the same reasons, thank you ADP & SharonLilly. I can skip over my argument, don't want to beat a dead Horse Dragon. I thought to myself, 'what if there was a way to just change it for the user? Let everyone see what they like, excepting of course the stuff before the fog and whatnot. That will keep everyone happy.'

 

So hey, look there is one! Problem is it appears to have shut down as essentially unfeasible. All right, I can can concur with this. I LOVED the horse update. Splits? I almost want to collect them, so pretty. The others? Not gonna lie... Never noticed. Sorry. Never owned a Holly or neglected, kinda also 'meh' on the Old Gold and New Golds. I own em, but no passion for em. Silvers, I'm not as sore as on getting changed, it was just a shock. I am not a forum user even though I've been around DC since early 2010.

 

I think, in all honesty, the logistics of the thread is preventing these kinds of situations from being a thing to start with. For ADP, Silvers were very important. What if the next update is a dragon you (the reader of this comment) love, invested years of time into only to have it changed in such a manner that it ruins the experience for you? I got lucky, Horse Dragons got changed and I love them. Some users in regards to the Silvers were not so lucky. I bet most people are in my position 'Meh, doesn't bother me enough to upset me'. I also bet some people hate the Horse update or various other updates that have happened.

 

This feature, is not insomuch about the now, though it is applicable to the now, as its about preventing more of this. If this is too difficult to code, how could we make it less so? I've read about an 'all or nothing' fix, which personally I don't agree with. TJ mentioned he's dumped the code for the old Silvers, fine I understand. Could this even be implemented next update or not? If not and I guess TJ might have to confirm, as what I do is different and so I do not want to assume, it could be done to prevent this community from even having to feel like this in the first place?

 

About the Artists and their feels: I very much understand that you own your rights to the images and that at anytime you could pull your art and walk. I understand that you want your art to grow and showcase your skills, I am a writer. Some of my old work from '07 is utterly terrible! I have some people though, who love it over my current works and tell me my new writing style is god awful. Do I pull it down? Nah. I understand their feels. I'm not proud of it as much as I used to be, but it gives my readers a sense of where I came from, how we got to today. I would never want to say 'you can't edit anything you did from 2010 or anything you think looks terrible'. Anatomy, light shading, minor tweaks, sure! I've had to edit my old work for spelling, grammar and just awkward phrasing that was brutal to read. Somewhat like your art. What I would never do, is pull my work and rewrite it to match my new style because the old readers would be upset.

 

I guess what I admit to be driving at is please do not forget where you came and who supported your art by in this case, collecting it and making pretty lineages out of it. We had 'bright' pinks when the 'old' pinks got retired. I almost feel like we could have done something like that, with the old silvers getting updated anatomically, light shading etc. with these new 'Polished' Silvers as a new release. Honestly, independent of the Old Silver I think they are utterly fantastic! If I compared to 'you replaced my lineage breeding Silvers?' Its meh, I'll use em but I don't love 'em.

 

I might be hi-jacking the topic the little, my apologies if so. I just wanted to explain my side more fully as I came late to the party.

 

 

 

[KageSora]

Mmph. Honestly, with the coding involved, the infrequency of updates, and the wondrous ability the internet gives you to save an image on your computer, I don't find this necessary.

And if that's all that mattered nobody would bother with making lineages because they'd just put them together on their computer using a third-party program.

 

Why, exactly, should players of a game be forced to use a third-party program in order to actually use a functionality built into the site because an update destroyed all the work they put in?

 

 

I understand lineage woes, but it's so much work for so little return that it's just not worth it. Coding is hard, harder than a lot of people really like to acknowledge. The more complex your code, the more likely something is to break, and the more variables you have to consider when changing any one thing even remotely related.

I would counter with "people put countless hours into their projects across months and years and suddenly had the end results turn into something they never would have started in the first place" being a serious case of "way more work than the return was worth".

 

Though I will agree the amount of work is quite enormous. But then, so is the work collectively put in by users who will no longer continue various lines because their work was undone in mere seconds with no hope of recovery.

 

And I may not be a sprite artist, but I am a digital artist, and seeing my work from even two years ago makes me cringe to the point where I will actively redraw the image if I liked the concept enough. When it comes to sprite updates in general, artists should never have to justify their reasons for wanting to update a sprite.

 

As an artist, I understand this.

 

However, there is a significant difference between removing an old work and putting a newer one up on your own blog/art website/in your portfolio/what have you and giving over art to the public with the express knowledge that said public would create things making use of that art and then retroactively altering all the work they've done by removing the old work and replacing it with the new.

 

One I put a thing out there for public consumption it is no longer something only for me. I cannot grasp why people still enjoy my older works, yet they do. It doesn't actually harm me to allow them to keep enjoying my older work, and it serves as something of a record, a sort of "hey, look how I was when I first started sharing my work, look where I am now".

 

Fuzz shared a great (in a terrible way) story of reaching out to an author--only to have said author tell her that she should never have read her book because it was old and terrible and as a result of being reminded that the public still has access to it she was going to ask libraries to pull their copies so nobody could read a book that had been published and distributed unless they owned a copy.

 

That's what this feels a lot like. "You're only allowed to still see my old work that I don't like anymore if you saved it somewhere, it's to be removed from other places so nobody else will be able to see it."

 

 

The beauty of a suggestion like this is that the creators don't have to see their old work if they don't want to. Much like I don't have to read my old stories or view my old art even without taking it down so those who like it may enjoy it, this would allow users to enjoy what they like without forcing the spriters to look at their old art either.

Edited December 7, 2015 by KageSora

[Omega Entity]

So... let me get this straight. People are throwing a fit about a change in a tiny percentage of content of a free site, that provides free entertainment, and are demanding that a metric crapton of time and work (and quite potentially, compromising the functionality of the entire site in general) be done over a handful of aesthetics that they don't like?

 

I do believe I've read more posts tonight reflecting an overblown sense of entitlement regarding a free service than I have in a long, long time.

[Twilight Dream]

And I may not be a sprite artist, but I am a digital artist, and seeing my work from even two years ago makes me cringe to the point where I will actively redraw the image if I liked the concept enough. When it comes to sprite updates in general, artists should never have to justify their reasons for wanting to update a sprite. The Silvers are an interesting case as the rework was done by someone other thn the original spriter, but the original spriter more likely than not gave her permission.

 

In the end, it's the decision of the artists and TJ.

As an artist, I really disagree with you. Yes, I might desperately want to redo work I did even a few months ago sometimes, because I've learned more in the meantime. BUT I also know that if I have allowed that art to be used somewhere, then I cannot just do that without possibly hurting people - and shock horror, I was kinda hurt - all those lineages I put hours into now suck because they are not what I worked on in the first place. Artists should ALWAYS have to justify a change when they have allowed their work to be used for something like this, something where there is more to worry about than just them wanting to randomly change something. And yes, there is more to worry about than just wanting to change old work. People love their dragons. The art is the entire reason people play the game - if the dragons didn't look nice, who on earth would want them in the first place?!

 

Look. Every spriter knows that when giving their art to a game like this, it could be in use for a while. So if you get tetchy or cringy over the idea of seeing your 2-year-old art sitting there in front of you, loved by millions on an internet game? There's a simple solution = don't let the game use your art.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Twilight Dream

[KageSora]

So... let me get this straight. People are throwing a fit about a change in a tiny percentage of content of a free site, that provides free entertainment, and are demanding that a metric crapton of time and work (and quite potentially, compromising the functionality of the entire site in general) be done over a handful of aesthetics that they don't like?

 

I do believe I've read more posts tonight reflecting an overblown sense of entitlement regarding a free service than I have in a long, long time.

Last time I checked, this entire sub-forum was designed so users could voice suggestions to fix complaints they have and add things they would like to see.

 

Forgive us for doing exactly that.

[Pokemonfan13]

I understand why some users feel that the old pink method was better. But there are big problems. There was a big debate over this back when the golds where updated. The biggest hangup there was the rarity of the species, and it would be the same problem with the silvers. Pinks, especially back then before influence, were common as dirt. People could collect new ones really really easily. Whole different story with golds. And what of those who wanted the new sprites? People suggested having the ability to update the old sprites rather than keep them the same, user by user basis, perhaps even dragon by dragon. That seems like a lot of coding to me... But there's also the problem of having something that can't be collected any more. Completionists who join after that form of update? Sorry, out of luck. It's bad enough that we have frills and old pinks, we don't need more dragons like that. We aren't the type of site that specifically gives out things that are limited edition just so players who were there for it have something special that others won't. Even the older holidays can be obtained, even if it's only as bred dragons. Basically it's opening a whole can of worms, especially with the rares.

[Omega Entity]

Last time I checked, this entire sub-forum was designed so users could voice suggestions to fix complaints they have and add things they would like to see.

 

Forgive us for doing exactly that.

But as I recall, this is the exact same argument that was suggested with the first batch, which was summarily shut down by the owner of this site, for legitimate reasons.

 

It serves no point to continue suggesting something that has already been explicitly explained as to why it won't be done. It has ceased being a suggestion at this point, and has crossed into the realm of entitled whining. Complaining about it won't change anything.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Omega Entity

[KageSora]

But as I recall, this is the exact same argument that was suggested with the first batch, which was summarily shut down by the owner of this site, for legitimate reasons.

 

It serves no point to continue suggesting something that has already been explicitly explained as to why it won't be done. It has ceased being a suggestion at this point, and has crossed into the realm of entitled whining. Complaining about it won't change anything.

And yet, wonder of wonders, this thread remains open.

 

Despite the owner himself posting in this very topic some pages back.

 

If TJ believes there is nothing left to gain from allowing this thread to remain open, he can shut it down himself or have one of the mods do so.

 

So, until such time as that happens, I fail to see there being a problem in continuing to express problems with the current situation and to support or discuss a way around said problems.

 

Additionally, TJ is human. This means he is entirely capable of changing his mind. I don't think he'll necessarily change his mind this time around, but as this is still a thing that can happen I feel that "but it was shot down last time" is an invalid reason to say a topic should be let alone.

 

Besides that point, this thread can be a good way to see both user and artist responses and desires, and to allow more information to be had for future decisions about this sort of thing.

 

Telling users to shut up and stop complaining does nothing to address their concerns, nor does it do anything to prevent the exact same complaints from being raised in the future when the problem strikes again.

[Obscure_Trash]

Everyone is allowed an opinion. Until such a time as this thread is shut down, everyone is allowed to share what they think about this suggestion. So, please, stick to the topic and either post if and how this should be implemented or don't post.

 

Thank you.

[Agwyn]

I understand why some users feel that the old pink method was better. But there are big problems. There was a big debate over this back when the golds where updated. The biggest hangup there was the rarity of the species, and it would be the same problem with the silvers. Pinks, especially back then before influence, were common as dirt. People could collect new ones really really easily. Whole different story with golds. And what of those who wanted the new sprites? People suggested having the ability to update the old sprites rather than keep them the same, user by user basis, perhaps even dragon by dragon. That seems like a lot of coding to me... But there's also the problem of having something that can't be collected any more. Completionists who join after that form of update? Sorry, out of luck. It's bad enough that we have frills and old pinks, we don't need more dragons like that. We aren't the type of site that specifically gives out things that are limited edition just so players who were there for it have something special that others won't. Even the older holidays can be obtained, even if it's only as bred dragons. Basically it's opening a whole can of worms, especially with the rares.

In keeping with the with my original post section on OldvsNew:

 

Silver/Gold have both been updated, everything else is practically common/uncommon (exceptions apply) so lets discount uber rares now that they're possibly done?

 

I missed the bright pink era admittedly, history tells me there was a lot of drama about it though. I was around for the Frills retirement though. As a completionist, that to this day is a bitter pill to swallow, as I will never be able to do that: CB 1M, F1, bred hatchie M/F/UnG. I got over it... Took a few years though. I see your point PF13, I really do. For argument sake though, say if the data for the 'old' sprite image was still available, then during the Christmas Holiday event it might still be possible to pick up a sprite as an Honourable Mention Prize. I think that was done for Frills one year? I vaguely remember it at some point. I dunno, it could be an option? No DC is not, you make a fair point and I've always been grateful that that's how it is. I would not like to see that become a further issue, in our attempt to prevent future and current problems.

 

What I wish I understood, coming from modding (assisting with plugins and databases) a Minecraft server (which yeah I know is limited in scope and all that), is how much is 'too much work/coding'. Its hard to know how to implement a solution when all we see is the skin and not the bones of the beast. Not asking for TJ to tell us his secrets but, it might help us stop devolving into guess work and focus on a solution within his scope? I know he's a very busy gentleman.

 

 

[Fiona]

Actually, I think it's because of what happened with the old pink/new pink thing that there's no option to keep the old sprites now. The furor we have over the silver update is nothing compared to what that was, and people still request getting old pinks back. People are still upset at not being able to get them for themselves when they can see them on others scrolls. I think TJ learned from the old pinks not to do it that way again.

[Riverwillows]

Speaking of old pinks, as Fiona said, TJ learned from them, not to keep the old sprite when changing from new, and I agree. I love my old pink, but sometimes I wonder if the hassle to keep them, when other want them too, is worth it.

 

Does anyone think TJ may rectify that and take away the old pinks?

[Fiona]

I don't think he'd take away something we've been allowed to have for so long.

[Fuzzbucket]

ACTUALLY - the lineage thing has a possible solution posted - I would feel a LOT better about all this if it were implemented.

 

https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=9041615

 

I am resigned to the new sprites as such, but the current lineage view just doesn't work in SO many cases. The suggested changes I've linked do make it a whole lot better.

 

I can't support optional different views, I really can't. FAR too much hassle all round.

 

 

edited for terrible grammar !

Edited December 7, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[Dracaena]

I really wish there was a way to keep the older sprites. I remember when original Everquest did a player character model update, you were able to chose the new face of your character or keep what you had (least I think that was what happened, been so many years ago..). But Everquest had a lot bigger budget and staff than what this little game has and I know I would be silly to expect the same thing.

 

And I already had to hide my scroll from the bomber hitting me for posting my unhappiness with this update. (Wish there was a cure for that too but that's another topic.)

 

I'm puzzled that this thread is even still open, I thought the shut up and deal with it crowd had pretty much won.

 

As a stand alone sprite this new one would do quite well. As a replacement for my beloved silvers, I find it lacking. The male bothers me especially, to borrow an expression from another user in the update thread, he looks like a frightened horse. What lends to this impression is the shape of the cheek/jaw line and the ribcage/waist of the body. Whoever heard of an eastern dragon with a waistline?! Along with the reared back head and stiff forelegs. He does look more like an arsani (who I realize now has seahorse characteristics) to me than the silver dragon he replaced.

 

Over all they are both too bright for my tastes, I much prefer my silver jewelery have the antique look. For years I wore a coiled dragon pendant and didn't take it off, the details of the pendant darkened from exposure to the air and the high points stayed bright from wear for a very dramatic and beautiful look. I wore that pendant until the loop holding it to the chain wore so thin I feared losing it and put it away in a box. The bright shiny silver jewelery either needs constant polishing, is coated so the air can't reach it, or really isn't silver. The jewlery market is very much buyer beware.

 

I also wonder how much is TJ's imput on this. When I joined Dragon Cave it was said there wouldn't be eastern dragons as TJ didn't like them, which didn't explain the anomaly of the silver dragon. If I remember correctly, TJ did later make a post saying it wasn't that he disliked them but nobody made suggestions with them. But I still wonder if there isn't a grain of truth to the old rumor. What we are given now for silver eastern dragon replacement isn't what I would consider an eastern.

 

Getting back to the shut up and deal with it aspect. We're told to go look at the wiki or our old screen shots if we want to see what was. I did save screen shots of my favorite lineages and I could use them for wallpaper for my computor and I would still have my old lineages. To continue that train of thought, I could get a paint program to make my lineages and then I wouldn't have to deal with the hassle of trading for mates, hope they don't refuse, look for replacement mates... and so forth. I could "play" dragoncave without having to worry with scroll bombers, failed trade negotiations, refusals, hatcheries or any of that. It could be a solo "game" on my computor. Is that really what you want us to do?

 

That would solve some problems for me. Like trying to catch rares in the cave with my new ISP that is so slow I frequently see the guilt tripping banners to buy a subscription before the google banner ad loads on top of it. Wish my old ISP hadn't gotten bought out and shut down but I can't change that either.

 

Losing my silvers is close to a game breaker for me. I still enjoy my lineage group, going to try to have fun with the holiday dragons minus the silvers. Might take a hiatus after the holiday as we all know the cave will be dead until valentines. And somewhere try to find the motivation to punt the silver lineages to the back of my scroll so I won't have to look at mutant invaders. They are demoted to trade fodder generators, like my golds.

[NotBambi]

But as I recall, this is the exact same argument that was suggested with the first batch, which was summarily shut down by the owner of this site, for legitimate reasons.

 

It serves no point to continue suggesting something that has already been explicitly explained as to why it won't be done. It has ceased being a suggestion at this point, and has crossed into the realm of entitled whining. Complaining about it won't change anything.

While, personally, I'm not a fan of venting or ranting (aren't there rules about that?) threads, I think that people should be able to express their displeasure with whatever happens in DC. In particular if there is a good chance that what they are upset about is here to stay and/or their suggestions will not be implemented.

[Pokemonfan13]

Dracaena, the problem with the male silver really came down to the fact that an eastern body really did not fit in the pose that was given, so it was either shorten the body and the neck to allow them to come together at a natural angle (even though it left him looking very different than the long-bodied female) or make a new pose entirely that would allow him to be properly eastern. Even the idea of a new pose was very much not popular. Basically a huge catch 22 that had no good answer.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Pokemonfan13