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Option to view updated sprites differently

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For people who are pointing out that the thread was left open: I think you're not seeing every possibility there. Maybe TJ is just letting us vent. Maybe he forgot or just doesn't care. Or maybe he really will change his mind. Regardless though, only soft pushes will work; the longer people go on and on about something the less support they will eventually get because then everyone else is sick of their complaining, and this includes the developer of the site(speaking of development, I don't think the coding side is necessarily hard or difficult, only that it is frustrating and tedious to dig through everything which may be why we only get updates every other month).

 

Back to my position, I'm still sticking to "find a way to get used to them." So maybe you don't like the aesthetic of the new Silvers for X reason, but how many people aren't commenting on this thread, or other threads, that do like them? You guys said so yourselves that polls aren't reliable simply because not every Dragon Cave user is a Dragon Cave Forum user, and there might be tons of regular players who are completely okay with the new Silvers, maybe even love the snot out of them. But of course, not everyone can be satisfied, and I doubt any further updates will be made to them, so finding ways to love the new Silvers or even finding new dragons to "replace" them with is the best option, in my opinion. Yes, lineages will have to stop and projects may have to be scrapped, but this happens in real life too. If your boss suddenly lays you off work because he can't afford having so many employees, are you going to complain about how you can't work there anymore and that your boss has some time of grudge or annoyance against you, hence the layoff? Or are you going to get a new job, perhaps an even better one now that you have the life experience?

 

We can all appreciate older works of any kind, and give them respect and love. I can agree that some things need to be stiffened up against, but I'm not so sure this is one of those times. That, and you guys are forgetting that just because the old Silvers are no longer in this site's cache, they've been saved in other things as well; the wikia, in banners, on local drives. So it's not like they've been completely pulled and only those special people who have joined the game in time know what they looked like, it's just more that they won't be seen on the actual Dragon Cave site now and collected normally.

 

Oh, and as an additional note, I did try to think of some ways my favorite dragons(Guardians, Tri-Horns, Blacks, Graves, etc.) could be changed or updated in such a way that I would hate them, but I think I failed. I can only think of things the artist would only do as maybe an April Fool's troll, or things that are inappropriate for the site. So unfortunately that argument falls dead on me.

 

So that's all I have to say. Find a way to love the new Silvers, just like how people who joined later like I did are getting over our inability to collect Frills or Old Pinks, or people are learning to enjoy the new Golds, and it won't even be a concern anymore. Or, learn to not like them at all and find a new dragon the hoard and love. Or even better, suggest a new dragon similar to old Silvers in coloration and just maybe it will get through!... That would be pretty cool, actually.

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I'll be honest--saying "just get over it" is probably the most useless and slightly insensitive kind of response to this.

 

It's not strictly a matter of "it's different and I don't like it"

 

It's a matter of "Something happened that, in an instant, undid months or years of effort completely and utterly. And, worse, this exact same thing has happened before. And it very well might happen again."

 

That's why a way to preserve your ability to view the sprites you'd like--doesn't even have to be forcing other people to see them the way you want, just YOUR ability to see them--is something that's important to a number of people.

 

I personally would prefer if everybody could see it the way you intended, but I concede to the argument against that for lineage unity--unless it was coded so the displayed sprites would be determined by the displayed sprite of the dragon who's lineage you checked. But that would add in a lot more effort for the coding, so it's just not feasible even compared to the rest of this idea which admittedly would take a good bit of time and effort. (But, I argue, a good bit of time and effort was just collectively ruined by this update changing lineages negatively for multiple people.)

 

 

The best part of a pick-your-view, though, is that it doesn't make any sprites unobtainable. It's simply essentially a "skin" for your dragons and could be an option open to anybody--regardless of if they had a dragon before the update or not.

Edited by KageSora

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I'll be honest--saying "just get over it" is probably the most useless and slightly insensitive kind of response to this.

 

It's not strictly a matter of "it's different and I don't like it"

 

It's a matter of "Something happened that, in an instant, undid months or years of effort completely and utterly. And, worse, this exact same thing has happened before. And it very well might happen again."

 

That's why a way to preserve your ability to view the sprites you'd like--doesn't even have to be forcing other people to see them the way you want, just YOUR ability to see them--is something that's important to a number of people.

 

I personally would prefer if everybody could see it the way you intended, but I concede to the argument against that for lineage unity--unless it was coded so the displayed sprites would be determined by the displayed sprite of the dragon who's lineage you checked. But that would add in a lot more effort for the coding, so it's just not feasible even compared to the rest of this idea which admittedly would take a good bit of time and effort. (But, I argue, a good bit of time and effort was just collectively ruined by this update changing lineages negatively for multiple people.)

 

 

The best part of a pick-your-view, though, is that it doesn't make any sprites unobtainable. It's simply essentially a "skin" for your dragons and could be an option open to anybody--regardless of if they had a dragon before the update or not.

My apologies, but what are you suggesting exactly? View-by-sprite isn't worth the coding and maintenance efforts. What else?

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I've noticed in today's gaming world that custom skins are becoming more and more common as a means of expanding gameplay. All of the newer games I've purchased offer them as some manner of perk or reward. It's an easy way for game designers to get more use of of pre-existing models rather than make entirely new ones.

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Just to clarify... If the choice is between implementing suggestions that have been requested for several years and "showing-whatever-sprite-a-few-prefer", there is no doubt on my mind that "showing-whatever-sprite-a-few-prefer" has a very low priority.

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My apologies, but what are you suggesting exactly? View-by-sprite isn't worth the coding and maintenance efforts. What else?

I outright stated in my post that I recognize that it's more work than would be willingly expended to allow my ideal--a "each individual dragon has a toggle, and that dragon is viewed however the toggle is set by anybody who sees it". But just because it's more work doesn't mean I can't wish it would be feasible even while acknowledging that, at this point in time and for the forseeable future, it just isn't.

 

I support the idea, however, of what essentially would be a filter. When the "retro filter" (or however it's named) is picked ALL sprites show their original sprites.

 

Ideally it would be something you could toggle on each breed, but again I acknowledge that's beyond the scope we could even hope for at this time. It would be enough to simply be able to switch between views.

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My apologies, but what are you suggesting exactly? View-by-sprite isn't worth the coding and maintenance efforts. What else?

Unless TJ says that it isn't worth the effort, as I recall we are not supposed to say "derrr coding too much work poor TJ; mustn't ask". Only he knows what is too much work - I think his coding skills run rings around anyone else's here. So that's not a valid point to raise. You may say it's too much work. He may say sure - no prob.

 

I don't particularly want this "solution"; I'd rather see a a change to the lineage view - but bringing up an argument that cannot be "proved" until TJ responds as a reason not to do something is not helpful.

 

 

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I think it's a little different matter having a custom skin on your avatar in a game and being able to choose different skins for multiple of the game assets, and the second could descend into madness as the number of sprites that have gotten updates rises - sometimes multiple updates. If it were a possibility to go back and give the option on sprites that have already gotten updates you would already have quite a lot of options.

 

I get that there are players here who would like to have that option.

 

I agree that saying "Too much coding" isn't a valid argument against, as we don't know the limits of TJ's coding ability. I do think it's fair enough to say I don't think it's a good idea for the game, but that's not my call either. Anyway, the ones who want something like that have the freedom to say what they want.

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Well, tossing in my slightly rusty two cents. I think this would be a nice idea. I'm not that upset over the current updates - I preferred the old male silver (the old one may have been less anatomically correct, perhaps, but I thought it was more aesthetically pleasing), but I can live with it. The one sprite update that I was actually quite saddened over happened a long time ago, when the Neglecteds were updated. Yes, they definitely needed work, but the old Neglected hatchlings were heart-meltingly adorable, and the new ones are not. I've long since gotten over that, but it has opened my eyes to the possibility of a sprite change being something I could strongly dislike and change my goals.

 

So, if it's not possible - I understand, and that's too bad. There's a lot of pressure against it; extraneous coding, everyone seeing different things, disgruntled artists. It might not even be particularly feasible with the way sprites are viewed; I don't know how dragcave is put together, but it could be a lot more complicated than a simple if/else on viewing. But if it is possible, I'd love to have the option.

 

I agree that saying "Too much coding" isn't a valid argument against, as we don't know the limits of TJ's coding ability.

 

Well, it can be. Only somebody who's worked with Dragon Cave's coding (ergo, TJ) would know just how difficult or tedious this is to implement. From an outside perspective, even an outside coding perspective, it might not sound like a particularly difficult task, but it might not be very compatible with the way things are set up. This is frustratingly common. Or it could be possible, but doing so would have a massive overhead that could damage performance or do other messy things.

 

Not to mention that TJ's under no obligation to make anything, so any coding is too much coding if he doesn't want to do it. Technically. But that's his call to make and not anyone else's, yes.

 

I might just be particularly sympathetic on the coding end of things right now. Spent the past two weeks dropping teapots onto space stations and trying to get them to stop slowly jiggling into each other and doing a little fusion dance. And let's not talk about the runtime exceptions.

Edited by Dianacat777

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Unless TJ says that it isn't worth the effort, as I recall we are not supposed to say "derrr coding too much work poor TJ; mustn't ask". Only he knows what is too much work - I think his coding skills run rings around anyone else's here. So that's not a valid point to raise. You may say it's too much work. He may say sure - no prob.

 

I don't particularly want this "solution"; I'd rather see a a change to the lineage view - but bringing up an argument that cannot be "proved" until TJ responds as a reason not to do something is not helpful.

Actually he did. Otherwise I wouldn't have brought that up. See also the post he quoted.

That's not how that works. I am quite confident in saying that the cost-reward ratio of this being an optional feature is not worth the effort (especially given the general infrequency of sprite updates), because something such as this definitely adds a lot of complexity to all parts of the process (each of the three categories I mentioned in the linked post).

Bold is mine.

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Coming in way late as RL has been a bear.

 

I just don't understand why we can't have both versions of the sprite on our scrolls.

 

All dragons have the date their egg was created (stolen or laid) attached to them in the database. Why not just have any egg created before the date of the update link to the old sprite and any afterward show the new? I think it would be neat to have the dragon equivalent of 'The March of Progress' on the scroll.

 

Granted those with lineages who don't like the way the new sprite would look would still be forced to stop breeding those lineages, but at least they wouldn't feel as though their existing lineages had been flushed down the toilet overnight.

 

Personally, I'm neither here nor there on the adult silvers and wouldn't mind having some of both the old and new sprites displayed on my scroll, but the hatchlings, which used to be adorable and I loved having on the scroll, now look like aborted fetuses or something and I'm fighting the urge to just kill them and be done with them.

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Coming in way late as RL has been a bear.

 

I just don't understand why we can't have both versions of the sprite on our scrolls.

 

All dragons have the date their egg was created (stolen or laid) attached to them in the database. Why not just have any egg created before the date of the update link to the old sprite and any afterward show the new? I think it would be neat to have the dragon equivalent of 'The March of Progress' on the scroll.

 

Granted those with lineages who don't like the way the new sprite would look would still be forced to stop breeding those lineages, but at least they wouldn't feel as though their existing lineages had been flushed down the toilet overnight.

 

Personally, I'm neither here nor there on the adult silvers and wouldn't mind having some of both the old and new sprites displayed on my scroll, but the hatchlings, which used to be adorable and I loved having on the scroll, now look like aborted fetuses or something and I'm fighting the urge to just kill them and be done with them.

I have more than 10 CB silvers and 0 time to hunt for more of them. As someone who prefers the new sprite to the old, I would very much not appreciate being forced to hunt or trade for the new sprites simply because someone else was enjoying a diet too high in sodium chloride.

 

In addition, there is the issue of sprite retirement which is generally less popular of a prospect than wading naked through a vat of razorblades and raw sewage, so.

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I have more than 10 CB silvers and 0 time to hunt for more of them. As someone who prefers the new sprite to the old, I would very much not appreciate being forced to hunt or trade for the new sprites simply because someone else was enjoying a diet too high in sodium chloride.

 

In addition, there is the issue of sprite retirement which is generally less popular of a prospect than wading naked through a vat of razorblades and raw sewage, so.

This. Especially the line about the retired sprites.

 

People STILL get really fussed about the Bright Pinks, but generally no one gets fussed anymore about the Golds. People still lament it, but they don't start "Bring back old Golds" threads.... and one about the Bright Pinks crops up about every other year or so.

 

Cheers!

C4.

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Yah, sprite retirement is no bueno. I still kind of liked the idea of slowly phasing old silvers down to 'rare, but less ridiculously rare' (think a bit more rare than a CB Copper) while introducing new shiny silvers (probably with a new pose) as a new breed. They'd be rare, yes, but they'd mass drop as a new release too, so people'd have an easier chance at them at the start then they ever did with the old rares.

 

Although overall I simply prefer the choice to view sprites as you originally got them bit. No one can feel anything got taken from them because they'll never see anything but what they originally got, while of course those who love the new can go full speed ahead with them. No new breed intros to fuss over, no sprite retirement, hopefully no hurt feelings.

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Why can't we have both sprites, old and new, for two different breeds?

You'd think this would really be the easiest solution, wouldn't it? Why not just introduce the new silver to be the new rare "flagship" or whatever; leave the old ones as "throwbacks" that also occur rarely in the wild; and give people the one-time option to update their old silver sprites to the new species if they prefer (this was done with old pinks, so I know the coding wouldn't be too much of a hassle.) Once they've chosen, each of the two species of silvers would breed true, so lineage people could all go about their merry ways.

 

The downside is that we'd run the risk of some of our lineages being messed up as the owners of some progenitors chose to update their sprites and others didn't. But I don't think that's any more of a problem than the damage that's done by completely removing the sprites some lineage fans prefer. I think it would be a fine compromise.

 

I would not be at all opposed to bringing back old golds as a "throwback" species either. I think most people prefer new golds, but I don't see how it would really hurt anything to have the wonky old ones occasionally popping up in biomes too. People who find them ugly could just trade them or drop them to the AP, right?

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You'd think this would really be the easiest solution, wouldn't it? Why not just introduce the new silver to be the new rare "flagship" or whatever; leave the old ones as "throwbacks" that also occur rarely in the wild;

Not sure about that being the easiest solution. While I love the new sprites and am quite happy about the update, I would love to see a bunch of new rares, not just the "Bright Silver". At the same time, I would bet that, if TJ had implemented that solution, we would be reading a bunch of people complaining about the new rare, starting during the release. Considering the ratios, the release of a top-dog rare would not be a big flood like the ones we saw lately with the commons but, instead, Copper-style, just worse.

 

Edit: Anyway, considering TJ's post on the Museum thread, I'm assuming that the old sprites are gone for good.

https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...0entry8964244

Edited by NotBambi

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Why can't we have both sprites, old and new, for two different breeds?

Because TJ feels that the cost to reward ratio isn't worth it. This was on the first page. If he doesn't want an option, then he sure isn't going to add in a "new breed" that will only complicate things further. (Note that Old Pink changes have only been Old Pink and this happened years ago.) What about people like me that love the new sprites and think the change was much needed and acceptable? Now I have a reason to collect Silvers because they don't look like mangled cousins of the Storm Dragon.

 

No seriously. Sit down and really take a good look at the old sprites. Their limb attachments don't make any sense and the male's neck was nothing short of completely broken. And they were dull. They didn't match the description at all and their spines looked metallic, rather than soft.

 

If the artists wanted their original sprites on the site, then they would have allowed them to stay and or/would have updated them differently. But they didn't. So it changed. It happens. But change isn't gonna undo itself, so you might as well strap in and get comfortable. They're not coming back. Ever. TJ has already said this. He even shut down the Museum Thread and made a point to reply here.

 

"I didn't agree to any drastic changes!"

 

And when you sign up, you automatically accept whatever is in the T&C.

 

"Art Usage: All art and text used on the site is used with the permission of the artist(s) that created it."

 

Which translates to the artists created their art and I was given permission to use it for DragCave. Which, by law, gives full end power to the artists. If they feel their art is inadequate tomorrow, then they have full power to update their art and change it as they see fit. If the artist signs rights off to TJ, then TJ has the rights to change the art as he sees fit. Agreements like this don't happen often and I do not know if there are any agreements like this between TJ and the artists. That is between them.

 

My lineages look fuzzy!

 

Then bring attention to this. It is a post showing how resizing the image using the correct algorithm for the situation improves the image quality. This as a change is a good change because it is a flaw, rather than an opinion. I can see now how the image appears a bit blurry in comparison to the end image and I feel this as a slight update would improve the quality of lineages.

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You'd think this would really be the easiest solution, wouldn't it? Why not just introduce the new silver to be the new rare "flagship" or whatever; leave the old ones as "throwbacks" that also occur rarely in the wild; and give people the one-time option to update their old silver sprites to the new species if they prefer (this was done with old pinks, so I know the coding wouldn't be too much of a hassle.) Once they've chosen, each of the two species of silvers would breed true, so lineage people could all go about their merry ways.

 

The downside is that we'd run the risk of some of our lineages being messed up as the owners of some progenitors chose to update their sprites and others didn't. But I don't think that's any more of a problem than the damage that's done by completely removing the sprites some lineage fans prefer. I think it would be a fine compromise.

Except that the "update ruin" is subjective, the "update individual sprites" ruin is not. Some people think the new sprite ruins the lineage, some think it makes it better, same lineage. I think all would agree that a lineage where all of a sudden there are two different versions of the dragon in it, placed randomly, is truly ruined.

Edited by Pokemonfan13

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If the artists wanted their original sprites on the site, then they would have allowed them to stay and or/would have updated them differently. But they didn't. So it changed. It happens. But change isn't gonna undo itself, so you might as well strap in and get comfortable. They're not coming back. Ever. TJ has already said this. He even shut down the Museum Thread and made a point to reply here.

And you may as well strap in and get comfortable with people being very vocal about things they don't like, because we won't simply stop bringing up complaints when we don't like something.

 

The old sprites may never come back, but we may be able to prevent having things ruined in the future by more drastic changes. The artists may have the right to change their art as they see fit, but we have the right to express that we disagree with this practice and that we find essentially ruining potentially months or years of work in an instant to be very unfair. We won't stop. Ever.

 

You are correct that the old ones had anatomy issues--but that doesn't always matter. Artists ignore broken anatomy all the time for plenty of reasons. That said, I don't think most of us here would have protested minor updates to fix the broken anatomy. The issue is with the changes the sprites now look too far removed from the originals, and this impacts lineages in a big way.

 

Some find this to look better, others find the shift in colors to now work less well with their lineages. At the end of the day it's a subjective thing, and telling people to essentially just shut up and accept it isn't going to do anything. TJ himself left this thread open despite posting in it, and what reason he may have we don't know but as such we can continue to use this thread to discuss the problem and try to find a solution that, just maybe, TJ won't think is too much work for the payoff.

 

 

 

 

Now, I saw a few things about having the new silvers as their own breed?

 

One idea could be to decrease the general rarity by a bit (not so it's raining silvers mind you, but just a little more common) and to have both sprites from the same egg. We already have some breeds like this with different colors coming from the same eggs. In the case of something like this, I think both should have an equal chance of coming from the eggs--a 50/50 chance. That would prevent a situation where one is very hard to find.

 

There could be a one-time option to change your dragons back to the old view (instead of changing the existing ones back to the olds and then letting people opt in to the new ones), which would help deal with lineages.

 

It would be a pain about lineages across multiple scrolls, but the same risk could be run any time if a person kills a dragon and puts a tombstone in that nice lineage. Thus I still prefer the idea that there be a toggle switch.

 

Or that all dragons generated before the update are reverted to the old and going forwards the change to get the new sprites would in place.

Edited by KageSora

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I really like tjekan's suggestion. Yes, some lineages may be ruined by people's choice, but isn't that where we are now? Some people have had lineages ruined by TJ's choice and lost years of effort. At least if we had a chance to revert, there would be the possibility of reclaiming some of what was loss.

 

As far as the "strap in and get comfortable" comment goes...No. I am not a sheep and there for am not required to just quietly accept when someone does something I don't approve of. The issue may not get resolved, but future ones may be avoided. By ignoring people's concerns, the only thing that occurs is a rise in player dissatisfaction. Some players will leave because the game no longer fulfills their entertainment needs. Some who have been long time supporters of the site become disenchanted with it, and may still play out of habit, but they no longer encourage new people to come to the site. If this trend continues, you begin to see less add revenue and the site itself begins to suffer.

 

A wise admin will always treat customer concerns seriously and attempt to find a workable solution instead of brushing them off with "suck it up" styles of thinking.

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One idea could be to decrease the general rarity by a bit (not so it's raining silvers mind you, but just a little more common) and to have both sprites from the same egg.  We already have some breeds like this with different colors coming from the same eggs.  In the case of something like this, I think both should have an equal chance of coming from the eggs--a 50/50 chance.  That would prevent a situation where one is very hard to find.

 

There could be a one-time option to change your dragons back to the old view (instead of changing the existing ones back to the olds and then letting people opt in to the new ones), which would help deal with lineages.

 

It would be a pain about lineages across multiple scrolls, but the same risk could be run any time if a person kills a dragon and puts a tombstone in that nice lineage.  Thus I still prefer the idea that there be a toggle switch.

 

Or that all dragons generated before the update are reverted to the old and going forwards the change to get the new sprites would in place.

Paragraph 1, please no. There's no point in updating the silvers if it leads to something totally strange like that. I can't even describe how horrifying I find that option because the idea of it just makes me start babbling incoherently in horror inside.

 

Paragraph 2, that is the worst way to deal with the "ruined lineages" problem, bar none. It only helps people who have the entire lineage on their own scroll, down to each and every CB. Many people cooperate or trade for elements of a large lineage project (I know, I've provided 2nd gens for many people). Any lineage cooperatively built like this would be instantly ruined by an ability for each user to select which sprite the silver displays. Imagine a large, gorgeous lineage built like this where it is a random mix of sprites because the different contributors think differently on which version is better. I think every single person here would agree that the lineage is ruined. There is no consensus on the "ruin" of lineages the way things stand, IE some people say ruin other people say better. Just because some people do not like some lineages with the new sprites does not mean we should categorically ruin lineages.

Edited by Pokemonfan13

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I'm not sure we can be considered "customers". At minimum, we are not paying customers. Even the ones of us that pay for the ads-removal, are paying for that specific feature, not for the Dragon Cave service.

BUT, more important, the majority of the customers is quite happy with the free service that is provided. I'm one of those, very happy with the way updates are introduced and the way obsolete and wonky sprites are replaced with what I think are better ones... And I would not be a happy puppy if, because some complain, those improvements were taken back. There are always two sides on a coin and, if I insist on posting, is because I think all voices must be heard. And I'll keep playing and inviting a bunch of friends to join. Others will be doing the same. So I doubt that the site will see less revenue or that the add revenue will be suffering. TJ has the numbers, we do not, so I trust that he knows very well, for sure better than any of us, what he is doing.

Edited by NotBambi

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Except that the "update ruin" is subjective, the "update individual sprites" ruin is not.  Some people think the new sprite ruins the lineage, some think it makes it better, same lineage.  I think all would agree that a lineage where all of a sudden there are two different versions of the dragon in it, placed randomly, is truly ruined.

Yeah, but that's already a risk we run whenever we make lineages out of ancestors that belong to someone else. I've had a dozen lineages ruined because somebody else decided to kill their dragon or rename it some long obnoxious all-caps garbage that destroyed the look of the lineage. I'd rather trade off having to worry about that than having to worry about all my own sprites and homebrewed lineages being in danger of changing at the drop of a hat.

 

(Note that I'm actually speaking in general on this one. I personally don't find this silver update especially disruptive. I just wish there were a better way to handle these things rather than just replacing everyone's sprites and undoing all their work.)

 

Because TJ feels that the cost to reward ratio isn't worth it. This was on the first page. If he doesn't want an option, then he sure isn't going to add in a "new breed" that will only complicate things further.

 

That's not necessarily true. Implementing personalized gameplay options for each end user is WAY more resource-intensive than site-wide changes like releasing a new breed and allowing a variable to be added to a dragon. I'm only a low-level programmer and even I know that much. He still might not find it worth the time investment, but it's not the same idea he's already rejected.

 

At the same time, I would bet that, if TJ had implemented that solution, we would be reading a bunch of people complaining about the new rare, starting during the release. Considering the ratios, the release of a top-dog rare would not be a big flood like the ones we saw lately with the commons but, instead, Copper-style, just worse.

 

Yeah... except that I have sympathy for people who are complaining because they spent years creating something on a game and it has just gotten deleted when it didn't really need to be, and I DON'T have any sympathy for people who are complaining because it's hard for them to catch rares so they think nobody should get to. I think the former group has a valid point and the latter group needs to suck it up, sorry. *rueful grin*

Edited by tjekan

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There's a rather huge difference between the chance of a ruined lineage and a guarantee of many incontrovertibly ruined lineages, lineages that pretty much every single person would agree are ruined. I'm not even a lineage builder or collector (other than prize lineages) and I'm horrified. (although, now that I think about it, I would be massively pissed if my 2nd gen shimmer from silver was ruined because the prize owner chose the old silver, and so would everyone who traded for a 3rd gen) Since I thought of it, pretty much every prize lineage built with silvers would be ruined because each gen is on a different scroll and the chances that every person who is a part of the lineage would choose the same is very low.

Edited by Pokemonfan13

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