Option to view updated sprites differently

[Andalusian]

Hello all, this is my first suggestion, so my apologies if it's not a grand post. Also my apologies if somebody has suggested this before.

 

As we all know about the new Sprite updates in July and now December of this year, which included updates to Nilia Pygmies, Hollies, Male Horses, Splits and Silvers. Many users, old and new, fell in love with these changes, however as we know there is controversy because there are those who have had love so much to the original sprites that it's upsetting to see something so beloved changed. Many lineages with tons of hard-work that have been put into them for years now don't work like they did. Now believe me when I say this is not at all pointed towards the Spriters, or TJ, or anybody for that matter. This is down to a matter of personal taste and/or how close are to the originals or the updates. And there's no way to satisfy everybody.

 

Now, here is where the suggestion comes in. We all know how we have the option to change our game backgrounds easily and to suit everyone for themselves, for their own personal tastes, without interfering with anybody else. What if this was the same with the dragons who've gone under sprite changes? An option to view the certain sprites as new or original. Only affecting the individual scrolls who set it to see what they love.

 

Hopefully this is possible to implement and simple to use. This option could either be under Account or the dragon Action page, and would be as easy as selecting your background as you can do now. And it would only affect that particular sprite, for example if you set it so you can view female silvers as the original, you would still view males as the updated unless you set them to original as well. This would make it so you could see every dragon you select to view as original, as the original. Your own or anybody else's. You change your mind and want to view them as the updated sprite? Simply switch it to the new ones as you please.

 

Once again I hope this is a possible addition, as I believe it would satisfy everybody, and leaving no one feeling upset to see the old sprites leave anymore. My apologies if this wasn't written/explained clearly, I will edit this post a lot if need be. Thank you for your time.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Mmm, while it wouldn't really solve my issues with the newest update (I wanted new silvers, but not THESE new silvers, lol), yah, I support this.

 

I can see some people getting annoyed because if artists want their dragons viewed a different way, then everyone should view them that way, but I don't think that's fair considering DC's nature as a public game. Modifying artwork in your portfolio or online galleries is very, very different from after-the-fact changes to sprites diligently collected, fussed over, and planned around by literally thousands of users, and I don't think it's fair or balanced to dismiss user's concerns because an artist no longer enjoys their old artwork. Trust me, I AM an artist, and a writer to boot, so I know all about self-doubt and wanting to change or retcon old art / ideas. But on a publicly played game like this, overhauling sprites to meet our own changing opinions isn't fair to all the users who love them as they are.

 

I would, however, suggest one small limitation: changes made within one week of a sprite being released (maybe one month?) are permanent and can't be turned off by this setting. I know there's been a few releases, such as Shadow Walkers and Spirit Wards (lol, both breeds by Fiona... you have no luck, huh? ), have had sprites that were slightly incorrect versions released at first, only to be almost immediately corrected to the proper ones. I don't think it's unreasonable to let artists make sure they have the proper dragons uploaded before we all settle in and consider them permanent.

[Obscure_Trash]

Sorry, but I am absolutely against. Not everything needs to be optional, sprite updates least of all. I personally would consider that a waste of time and resources. I get that changing sprites changes lineages and that people really like specific sprites, but sprites are updated because as artists grow, they gain the ability to better communicate the design of the dragon to us. There is no reason we need to be able to see the old sprites.

 

As well, I think this point from TJ is quite applicable here: https://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showt...dpost&p=8964244

 

No, I would not complain or be upset if this was added. But I see no reason why this does need to be done.

[RainDear]

I'm afraid that the battle/hope that the users might have some say in sprite changes has been lost. I am out of the fray and much disappointed.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

And I strongly disagree, Sock. I think Syphoneira said it very, very well:

 

"There's no point in wasting a lot of time and energy in obsessively collecting a whole lot of what I like or breeding lineages when they're only going to be changed into something else at some point."

 

I don't care about "better communicating the dragon to us." The dragons were already communicated to us when they were released. If I liked what I saw, I collected it, traded for it, worked for it. I've spent literally years working on literally dozens of silver dragon lineages. Countless hours trawling for bloodswaps, sticking lineage tiles into SAI for comparison, making excel sheets to track progress. And now, I feel that much of that hard work has been ruined. Many dragons that I have worked hard and diligently to collect now look like something I would not have bothered collecting. If other people disagree, they have the right to. But if many users (and it is many, simply look in the news thread) feel they have had something taken from them, then that shouldn't be as easily dismissed as it continually has been.

 

What is there to do on DC? I often struggle to explain this when telling other people why I like the game. There's not mini games, or customization, or much interaction with our beasts. Really the main things are simply collecting sprites we adore and making pedigrees with them that we are proud of.

 

And when you retroactively change the things we have strived for into something else, you are KILLING the game for us. Much that I have done has been undone. That is not a trivial thing.

 

(Also, let it be said, I am not against updates in general. I enjoyed the purple, whiptail, gold, split, and neglected updates, and those are just ones I remember offhand--there are probably more. Change is not inherently a bad thing. But changes DO have consequences, in this case I believe significant ones, and I regret all that is lost every time myself or someone else wakes up to find a dragon they once loved now being something they detest. A choice to keep what we had already collected hurts no one and would soothe many who have grown jaded about all the recent updates.)

Edited December 3, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[stagazer_7]

Even though I like that we're all seeing the same sprite, not several different ones in light of the recent update spree I wouldn't mind this option - but I don't think it has any chance of being implemented at all, just like the Museum idea before it was shot down almost immediately after being suggested... I still firmly believe old sprites have their place in the Encyclopedia at the very least, because it's nice to see how the sprites evolved over the years.

 

I don't care about "better communicating the dragon to us." The dragons were already communicated to us when they were released.

I feel this way too - flawed or nor, every sprite released is complete... unless they're being regularly picked from the WIP section? As far as I'm aware that is not the case.

Edited December 3, 2015 by stagazer_7

[Tango]

Nah, people need to hush up and get used to it. There are going to be artistic choices that not everyone likes, pretty sure everyone has a dragon they think it butt ugly, people will get used to this choice.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Nah, people need to hush up and get used to it. There are going to be artistic choices that not everyone likes, pretty sure everyone has a dragon they think it butt ugly, people will get used to this choice.

I need to just hush up and get used to everything I work hard to collect being able to suddenly become ugly on me?

 

Hm, no, I don't think so. There is little fun in playing a collecting game when everything you like collecting can suddenly turn into something you don't like.

 

I still haven't gotten an answer for that, because there isn't a good one. What's the point of collecting things you like if you can abruptly have them replaced by something else that you don't like?

Edited December 3, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Tango]

I need to just hush up and get used to everything I work hard to collect being able to suddenly become ugly on me?

 

Hm, no, I don't think so. There is little fun in playing a collecting game when everything you like collecting can suddenly turn into something you don't like.

 

I still haven't gotten an answer for that, because there isn't a good one. What's the point of collecting things you like if you can abruptly have them replaced by something else that you don't like?

There's no point in collecting these things. At all. If you want to look at pretty lineages with old silvers there are probably a few screenshots saved somewhere. If TJ had actually changed the species I'd understand but the species is still the same.

[purplehaze]

Nah, people need to hush up and get used to it. There are going to be artistic choices that not everyone likes, pretty sure everyone has a dragon they think it butt ugly, people will get used to this choice.

No, you don't understand.

 

If I consider a dragon butt ugly I simply don't collect them or collect the minimum number to fill my scroll goals and certainly never spend years building lineages with them.

 

The problem comes in when something that once was beautiful to my eyes is changed in a way that to me makes it much less attractive, especially in the lineages that I so diligently worked to build.

 

I'm not sure this suggestion is the answer to that problem. I would prefer that dragons be considered finished when released and no further changes be allowed after that. But telling us to shut up and get over it is not the answer, either.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

There's no point in collecting these things. At all. If you want to look at pretty lineages with old silvers there are probably a few screenshots saved somewhere. If TJ had actually changed the species I'd understand but the species is still the same.

That depends on what you consider in life as things "having a point." There's no real point in eating cookies, singing, or drawing dragons, but that doesn't mean they aren't lovely things to do that make life worth living. I've played this game for over eight years and gotten a lot of joy out of collecting dragons I like and using them to build lineages I like. Having the things I worked hard to collect and much enjoyed suddenly changed to things I don't like has taken something from me, even if it's not something that can be measured in money. It can certainly be measured in happiness and time invested. Having to go off site to see things that were in MY collection yesterday is not a solution.

 

Honestly between this and a lot of other stupid things on DC lately I wish I could just pack my bags and quit. I'll be forthright and say that I'm too deeply invested to actually do so, but a bitter little part of me hopes other users do start leaving until this game gets its act together.

 

I'm not sure this suggestion is the answer to that problem. I would prefer that dragons be considered finished when released and no further changes be allowed after that. But telling us to shut up and get over it is not the answer, either.

 

I'm all for this for breeds that have been released over the last six or seven years, but I feel that changes with some of the older sprites--those made either to quickly find replacements when DC was undergoing the fog, or made shortly after that when color palettes were still forcefully limited--are understandable and, in come cases, stunning to see (I liked the split update and hollies are pretty good looking now too). I mean, remember how the old golds and neglecteds looked? Some of the oldest sprites were in bad shape.

 

But, yah, changes like the sudden nilia overhaul or horse dimorphism I'm not as fond of.

Edited December 3, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Ahimsa]

I disagree with this suggestion for all the aforementioned reasons. Whereas some have some seriously strong feelings for this suggestion and generally keeping the old sprites, I quite adore the new ones and think that these changes are nothing but improvement.

 

Which then forms my opinion on this -- I don't think this would be an efficient use of people's time.

[Syphoneira]

There's no point in collecting these things. At all. If you want to look at pretty lineages with old silvers there are probably a few screenshots saved somewhere. If TJ had actually changed the species I'd understand but the species is still the same.

 

 

 

 

Just to mention, if there's no point in collecting on a collecting site, what's the point of having a collecting site?

 

 

No, I don't think this Suggestion would go through, as we weren't permitted viewing options for those of us who had lineages ruined when our hard-won Golds changed. It's been made quite plain that the members don't matter, as long as new ones keep coming through to replace them, so there's actually no need for it to be further emphasized by other members who are so far OK with things, as much as the effort's appreciated.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Hi, Ahimsa, just to point out, it wasn't a very efficient use of our time to spend years collecting dragons we loved and creating lineages which are now no longer the same. Nonetheless, we wasted all that time and effort and it's gone.

 

I suppose it serves us right for actually investing the time and emotion in the site and dragons, when it's only a game and should never have mattered in the first place, but it makes me absurdly sad, nonetheless.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Syphoneira

[TJ09]

Alas, the old sprites have been removed from the code. They're gone and aren't coming back. The ship has sailed.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Alas, the old sprites have been removed from the code. They're gone and aren't coming back. The ship has sailed.

Your lack of empathy for user concerns it not exactly soothing. The dry humor with that last little catchphrase is all sorts of not appreciated.

[NotBambi]

I keep seeing both sides of the fence. But... I can understand that some people do not like the new sprites, I can understand a bit less the ones that do not wanted updates period.

The fact was, we were never told that things were not going to change, we were not told that rules would not change or that sprites would not change. Maybe this would be a good opportunity for everybody to consider compromising instead of just saying "no".

[Nine]

The great thing about optional features is that they can make a majority of the people happy with few to no drawbacks. Like the new updates? You can pick to view those ones. Don't like the updates? You can pick to see the old ones. Just about everyone ends up with the choice they prefer and is up happier for it.

 

When it comes down to the bear purpose of the site as a whole, isn't it to make users happy? To provide entertainment with the best possible feedback? (If that's not the purpose let me know). I don't find that a waste of time or resources at all, especially for a site that seemingly has very few different avenues for resources to go towards to begin with.

 

I support suggestions such as these because all they'd do is provide more people with satisfaction and positivity than before, and I see no downside to that.

 

Alas,

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Nine

[TJ09]

The great thing about optional features is that they can make a majority of the people happy with few to no drawbacks. Like the new updates? You can pick to view those ones. Don't like the updates? You can pick to see the old ones. Just about everyone ends up with the choice they prefer and is up happier for it.

 

When it comes down to the bear purpose of the site as a whole, isn't it to make users happy? To provide entertainment with the best possible feedback? (If that's not the purpose let me know). I don't find that a waste of time or resources at all, especially for a site that seemingly has very few different avenues for resources to go towards to begin with.

 

I support suggestions such as these because all they'd do is provide more people with satisfaction and positivity than before, and I see no downside to that.

That's not how that works. I am quite confident in saying that the cost-reward ratio of this being an optional feature is not worth the effort (especially given the general infrequency of sprite updates), because something such as this definitely adds a lot of complexity to all parts of the process (each of the three categories I mentioned in the linked post).

 

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

I see what you tried to do there, and it's clever, but not quite. The implication that I used a word with a connotation of grief or concern in an insincere manner is making assumptions about my mental state that cannot possibly be verified (and thus justified) by anyone other than myself. The fact that I have no intention of bringing back the old sprites in any capacity does not logically correlate with a lack of caring for those who are unhappy with the change.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

TJ, I want an answer to this. How do you address users feeling like this?

 

"There's no point in wasting a lot of time and energy in obsessively collecting a whole lot of what I like or breeding lineages when they're only going to be changed into something else at some point."

 

Someone PM'd me, deeply worried, that their beloved tsunamis or dark mysts might be next on the chopping block. I, personally, feel that my silvers and my lineages with them no longer look beautiful at all, and am upset about time wasted. Lots and lots of time wasted. Others have expressed similar concerns, most notably for this silver update and for the drastic nilia overhaul before it. It's not fun collecting things and planning lineages that take months to breed (often due to horrible breeding odds...) to have them suddenly look like things we wouldn't have collected. Yes, I have enjoyed some of the updates, but I've also been hurt by others, and it's been that way for many.

 

Can we get any assurance that we needn't fear having everything yanked out from under our feet and replaced by odd looking mimics, or is the only answer we're going to get a nonsensical "the ship has sailed" remark when bringing old sprites back is certainly within your capabilities?

 

 

[Nine]

Just going off of your tone in other, similar threads regarding old sprites and in-game options to view them. Generally the resulting replies have been less than favorable towards such suggestions, very definitive in their wording, and wholly unsympathetic towards users who remain frustrated. I could never claim to know the emotional implications behind a person's words, so I am only able to make connotations based on tone towards other situations and posts. Whether it's intended or not, again, I can't say.

 

That's not how that works. I am quite confident in saying that the cost-reward ratio of this being an optional feature is not worth the effort (especially given the general infrequency of sprite updates), because something such as this definitely adds a lot of complexity to all parts of the process (each of the three categories I mentioned in the linked post).

I wasn't referring to the inner workings of code and such, just the end result of said work and what it provides. I find it worth the time, I see you don't. Ok.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Nine

[diaveborn]

Would a museum aspect to the encyclopedia be better, cost-reward-ratio-wise, than having the sprites be optional in lineages for everybody? Pull the sprites from the wiki if needed, and just leaving them in one place must be less complicated than having people be able to pick. Even if you don't think an encyclopedia is needed, could that be a good compromise? (edit: I'm tired so I don't know if I'm coming across as the genuinely curious that I am - sorry if not.)

Edited December 3, 2015 by diaveborn

[TJ09]

"There's no point in wasting a lot of time and energy in obsessively collecting a whole lot of what I like or breeding lineages when they're only going to be changed into something else at some point."

 

Someone PM'd me, deeply worried, that their beloved tsunamis or dark mysts might be next on the chopping block. I, personally, feel that my silvers and my lineages with them no longer look beautiful at all, and am upset about time wasted. Lots and lots of time wasted. Others have expressed similar concerns, most notably for this silver update and for the drastic nilia overhaul before it. It's not fun collecting things and planning lineages that take months to breed (often due to horrible breeding odds...) to have them suddenly look like things we wouldn't have collected. Yes, I have enjoyed some of the updates, but I've also been hurt by others, and it's been that way for many.

 

Can we get any assurance that we needn't fear having everything yanked out from under our feet and replaced by odd looking mimics, or is the only answer we're going to get a nonsensical "the ship has sailed" remark when bringing old sprites back is certainly within your capabilities?

Look at the number of sprite updates relative to the number of releases. We have on the order of 150 breeds, and there have been on the order of five big sprite replacements (probably a few more, but it doesn't change the numbers that much). That means the naive estimate is that 3% of breeds get replaced.

 

That said, that's assuming an even distribution of replacements, which is patently false. In fact, most (almost all) of the replaced sprites are from way back in 2008—the original sprites from the big replacement project that happened. Those sprites were created to a much more limited set of criteria (strict color limit, smaller size expectations) that they simply can't compete with sprites created even a few years later.

 

Which means that any "newer" breed—or really, any of them released in the past four or five years, which can hardly be considered "new"—is extremely unlikely to be changed, just by raw statistics. And they're not just empty numbers; there's simply no real reason to consider drastic updates to the newer sprites.

[HeatherMarie]

Personally, I've learned to live with this. Would I *like* to be able to keep the old silvers? HECK yes. I much prefer them to the new updates. But I've come to understand that sprite updates are just a way of DC, now. From what I've heard, especially in this thread, TJ isn't going to budge on this issue and me whining about it isn't going to get anywhere. I'll miss the old silvers, and I won't be collecting anymore, but.... Hey, they changed other sprites that I was completely against, and I'm still here, so I guess that says something.

[KageSora]

Would it be possible to do something like the old/new pinks in the future? That would allow for people who have lineages to keep them intact, would allow people to keep something at least of what they loved, while still allowing the evolution of the art.

Edited December 4, 2015 by KageSora

[FireMaster13]

Would it be possible to do something like the old/new pinks in the future? That would allow for people who have lineages to keep them intact, would allow people to keep something at least of what they loved, while still allowing the evolution of the art.

We're all being told "no", to anything with the old sprites. That would be a nice alternative, but it sounds like it won't happen.