Holiday Rereleases

Tehya Faye · June 13, 2015

I think that would be a pretty fair trade-off.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Tehya Faye

AppleMango · June 13, 2015

I love this idea!!

As for limiting the Halloweens, I've only read the first page, so sorry if this has been suggested already, but maybe for the limit, instead of having a limit of x amount per scroll, we could maybe have a limit of X new ones per year or something like that?

AGYK · June 13, 2015

Ehhhh. No longer support this idea. I like being able to catch holidays in the AP; without multiclutches, I just don't see that happening. More than likely we'd have CBs basically replacing the APs.

Laugh · June 13, 2015

I'm okay with going to 8 as max with CB Halloweens like Tehya said with her suggestion, but unlimiting it is really pushing it. I know some of you said that you give up egg slots if you do that, but that's why there's trading. I currently have 104 CB Desipises and even traded off some of the hatchies when they had a few hours left for 2g metals at the end. Best part is that I didn't have to sacrifice any egg slots/hatchie slots/lineage goals. I filled up my slots as much as any regular player could have (with lineaged halloweens of course) if they bred themselves eggs /while/ incubating/influencing straight. You don't need more than 8 and the only reason I got to 100 was as a feat/challenge a couple friends on here said they'd like to see me do. I made no deals whatsoever prior to the desipis release and I don't doubt I could have made it to 150 if I wanted to.

I feel that making all the Halloween breeds unlimited will deter the market into "I want more CBs of this rather than lineages of this". Not everyone's going to all rush it at the same time, gradually other players will want to do the same and you will always have people asking for more Halloween CBs in trading threads if there is no limit placed. I think the reason why the economy is more lineage oriented during Halloween is because the only CB you can get is when the new Halloween comes and when that comes people hop on board to either sell some CBs or get more CBs. 8 per breed is more than enough.

NotBambi · June 13, 2015

Personally, I find the trade-off acceptable. If CBs were available, I would prefer them. I assume that would be the same for other players (I'm not saying all players, many people go after lineaged eggs) so the demand for bred eggs would be lower and the need for multi-clutch lower as well.

This is assuming that I understood correctly, on my sleepy state, what TJ is saying.

Naruhina_94 · June 13, 2015

I wouldn't mind the trade-off either (even if I'm a bit worried for 2nd gen from spriter alts, which will be even more rare). I don't mind losing a 2nd gen holly x red if I can have a CB Holly instead

Still support. Maybe only 3 eggs produced per pair would be enough to balance? Sometimes when my holidays multiclutch I get even 5-6 eggs, I think that if we limit it at 3 the situation could be more balanced

Laugh · June 13, 2015

I'm okay with the trade off as well. It wouldn't hinder anyone's ability to swap lineages, just makes it a little harder to find what you're looking for in the AP is all. o-o

@Naru: I didn't know you could multiclutch as high as 6, I've only had a multi as high as 4. But then again I've only been here since Graves. x.x I'd at least like it at 2 if possible though.

FoxintheBox4 · June 13, 2015

I support this because when raffles will be happening ~ there will be no Holies etc. in there anymore and you will have more chance to obtain a prize dragon or CB hybrid

And I really want to have past CB holiday dragons, especially Marrows!

Naruhina_94 · June 13, 2015

I'm not completely sure about 6 but 5 is more probable! I'm sure there were a lot of them and more then 4 I've always found the holiday multicluch a bit excessive but I don't know the mechanics behind to judge it properly

dragongrrl · June 13, 2015

I've had to struggle to get the Marrows I want every year, because I don't have the CBs to breed for the lineage swaps I want. I feel like my wishes are mostly ignored in trading or gifting threads, so I've pretty much given up on them. Pumpkins have been a problem, too, but I'm not quite as interested in them as the Marrows.

I can live with TJ's suggestion, if I can get the CB Marrows. <3

@ Naruhina - I've never seen a clutch larger than 4 either, and had no idea they could get to six.

And Saynna, 104 CB Desipis? ;blink: Do you take students?

Edited June 13, 2015 by dragongrrl

Tehya Faye · June 13, 2015

Bringing down the multiclutch to 2 would be pretty painless, I think. More CBs would mean more 2nd gens, and while initially it'll hurt over the long run I think it'll work out fine.

NotBambi · June 13, 2015

I'm pleasantly surprised: was expecting someone coming up with something along the lines of "if CB Hollies drop next Christmas, the babies of the CB Holly actually in my scroll will lose value and will not be tradeable for 2G Prizes". Yes, I'm evil. But sometimes it almost seems like everything in DC revolves around Prizes. /me looks for hiding place

olympe · June 13, 2015

That would be a pity, I think, and I'd rather do without extra holiday eggs during the drop.

Although it's true that event eggs seem to clutter the AP during the breeding window, many eggs sit there for prolonged periods of time. It's usually the least favorite breeds (of that particular event), or eggs with non-special lineages (messy, inbred, you name it). However, thanks to multi-clutching, there are countless gems to be found, even for players with less catching aptitude. Gems like this one, which I still consider my best catch ever. Especially if people could opt out of holiday multiclutches, I think these special eggs wouldn't hit the AP any more, much less in quantity. After all, every "extra" egg that the owner couldn't trade away just might decrease the value of next year's offspring. And, let's be frank, more and more of DC revolves about trading power and stock-market value, especially in relation to 2nd gen prizes.

Also, it's thanks to the massive holiday wall in the AP that I often manage to not only raise 3 scrollfulls of eggs, but 4 - which gives me way more options for my various holiday breeding projects on top of gaining new dragons to continue my lineages with. One of my favorite examples is my Val '09 x Red checker, which was stalled at 4th gen for a while, but which I will be able to continue to 6th gen after V'Day 2016 without any further trading - all thanks to a number of lucky AP catches (and stalking the congrats/nice lineages found in the AP/trading threads). Thanks to that, I'm also able to breed 6th gen Yule x White checkers. I have neither CB yules nor CB Vals of '09, and none of this would have been possible without the surplus of eggs in the AP. Personally, I'd hate to see that reduced.

The overflowing AP during event breeding windows is like a wonderful gift to the community, even for the slower players. Let's not take it away from them so that the fastest can have even more CBs, more trading power, more everything!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another thing I find rather iffy personally is the suggestion of a "no limit" rule for Halloweens, or a "2 extra CBs every year" rule for the other events, as has been suggested. I'd much rather see a hard cap on the CBs you can have at all, like 2 for Winter and Valentine events and 8 for Halloweens - whereas the Halloween cap only gets implemented about a month after the original release to allow for excessive trading, as that has become a bit of a tradition - even though it's one I'm not too fond of.

Handing out (pretty much limitless) extra CB holidays will mostly serve the faster players, for it's them who will get all the valuable breeds that everyone else will also cherish. This suggestion will only add to their ability to catch "special" eggs. I can already see it happening, people offering hollies for 2nd gen prizes and the likes. The big majority, however, will be just as disappointed with the extra old holiday dragons being released as they currently are with CB golds.

The only thing that might potentially save the suggestion of re-releasing old holidays as uncommon drops is a hard cap on the amount of CBs you can get the years after the release, in case of Halloweens, so that those who've already had their fill cannot gorge themselves any more. This would help make this suggestion from someone that benefits only the fastest or richest to something that benefits the newer players - or those unlucky souls who didn't manage to catch anything during the older events.

The way this suggestion seems to go right now (no hard limits/caps, eventually endless CBs for some), I cannot support.

Would I love to add a 3rd, 4th or 5th CB [insert favorite Event Breed here] to my collection? Yes, definitely.

Would I be able to do so? Lol, no. Not with the way the cave works at the moment. Things would all go to the fastest clickers - or those using "little helpers".

Would I enjoy this suggestion? After hours of fruitless cave hunting, and finding all that I'd love to have seen offered for 2nd gen prizes that I can't produce? Do I really have to answer that?

Tehya Faye · June 13, 2015

I believe the unlimited discussion was talking almost purely about CB Halloweens. I personally don't think we should be allowed to get higher than 2 CB Christmas/Valentines day dragons, or if we can get more it still needs to be a hard cap (4 at the most, imo).

Edited June 13, 2015 by Tehya Faye

Cinnamin Draconna · June 13, 2015

I would fully support reducing the multi-clutches to 2.. that's one for the breeder and one for the AP.

Catching 3 different versions of the same ugly egg has never made me like the holiday multi-clutches. I'd rather see fewer bred eggs and more caveborns.. especially if those caveborns included Hollys (which is the only caveborn Holiday I'm missing.. re-releasing the others means nothing to me, but having a chance for caveborn Hollys would make it worth a fortune).

shanique · June 13, 2015

I'm pretty sure there'll be a lot of people who will be in favor of multi-clutches. Sure, there's a lot to be shared, especially people who AP stalk for Prizelines/Spriter's Alts. However, there's a handful of people who'd probs like to limit the eggs falling into random hands due to lineage/naming/sentimental reasons.

Plus, if the holiday rerelease is implemented, I see this only as a problem on the first year, because by the second year it runs, more people would have enough CBs to offset the losses during the first year, giving the same, if not more variety to lineages, parents, and more choices for swaps. Or, having the same amount of multiclutches in the past for the first year so that it doesn't feel like there's a lack of offspring for the newer releases, then change the multiclutch average on the next year.

_______________________________________________________

@Olympe

I don't really see this as a problem!

More people owning more CBs means there's gonna be more breeders in the next months/years to come. Even if the multiclutches are reduced, in general, I think the number of new CBs would be roughly enough to compensate for the smaller multiclutches.

Also, it only said, lowering the multiclutch average, not removing the multiclutch system entirely! It even lessens the possibility that you'll get an egg whose lineage is related to one you own, because there'll be more breeders to pitch in their own pairings that may be similar to yours~

________________________________________________________

Personally I'd LOVE having 2 more CBs of each egg every year BUT in the long run, I think it's still gonna be pretty much a fast catcher slow catcher problem. The 2-holiday-per-scroll rule being lifted was nice enough already, and if we can get ahold of more and more CBs of each egg per year? Nifty, but if I have to take ratios and such in consideration, there'll be a massive surplus which might lead to, if we consider TJ's post, complete removal of the multiclutch system.

Having a hard limit of 2 CB per scroll on valentines and holidays, I think, is more than enough. We're not even supposed to have new CBs in our scroll, as it is now. Being able to rerelease them, even now, is already a HUGE thing to be thankful for. When people had only two of each holiday dragon on their scroll, some even froze hatchies for sprite-collection purposes. That is having. Owning. Having more is just, I daresay, greed. I mean, that's a personal thing. There's people like me who hoard. But we have to understand that holidays are still supposed to be limited. Want more 2nd gens of the same pairing? That's what swaps are for. If it's the sprite a player wants, the new unlimited number of holiday dragons in the scroll can help that. If it's for breeding purposes, there's trading for that. I don't know, I just don't see the point of needing 2 more CB per year.

If the original intent of rerelease is to give a chance to those who missed out, I don't see why a hard limit of 2 CB for each dragon is enough. How many members have joined DC since the Holly release? Thousands, I'd bet. Even making them uncommon and having only a few hundred actually online during the breeding period, that's already enough to get competition. Then, consider the number of breeds that will be available for rerelease in a particular year. That's already a lot. As it is, giving people a chance of getting 2 CBs of each dragon is good, but it's not even guaranteed that they'll actually get 2 CBs of each dragon in that year. Throwing back those who already own 2 CBs into the catcher list just dwindles the chance of people being actually able to collect CBs.

But for Halloweens, I'd agree on putting a cap! Like, maybe, 8 (as suggested). Let's be honest, if we release the cap, it'd still be pretty much invisible to slow catchers/people with slow internet because of how fast they'll be snatched up, plus the number of people and scrolls to be filled. I think it's important to remember that the rerelease is suggested to be uncommon, not caveblocker common. And like what Saynna said, there'll be less interest on actually getting lineaged ones, but more into CB hoarding, if there isn't gonna be a limit on it.

_____________________________________

TL;DR:

Agree on TJ's post, in favor of less multiclutch average to balance the eggs hitting the AP

Disagree on first part of olympe's post. More breeders meant more variety, more owners and less possibility of having inbred/related dragons especially to older lines. More owners offset the losses of smaller multiclutch.

In favor of a hard 2-cb-per-scroll limit of older eggs, in consideration of TJ's post, proposed rarity (uncommon) and number of potential catchers. Not in favor of having 2 more per year, in accordance to the original purpose of the rerelease.

In favor of putting an upper cap on halloween dragons, for reasons above, and to maintain interest in lineages.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Pandalf

RecycledHeart · June 13, 2015

After each year caveborn holidays are going to drop in value. Like seriously drop. Everyone is going to have them. And I would love to have cb holidays because I want them. For myself. You saying dont do this because prizes and cheaters isnt fair to a lot of us. I have plently of rare and desirable dragons on my scroll which I caught myself. Didnt cheat didnt trade for. Cb golds, cb silver, cb spessartine, cb coppers, dinos, cheeses, papers etc. Very few coppers and unbreedables were traded for. Are you going to call me a cheater? So many people who are able to catch nice things are not cheaters or obsessed with prizes. Frankly im I'm tired of people bashing on fast clickers and invalidating what we want because everyone is afraid we're either cheaters or prize hunters.

I would love cb holidays and making the multiclutch go down to 3-2 eggs does not seem game breaking to me. People are still going to breed their holidays no matter what. The ap will never have a shortage of holiday eggs imo.

Edit because of typo.

Edited June 13, 2015 by RecycledHeart

Sir Barton · June 13, 2015

No support for the rerelease because of this. I like that the holidays are about giving, and that's what the AP is about. Sure, not all the lineages are pretty, but there are gems in there that people have put thought into creating with the purpose of "sharing the joy of the holiday". I hate to see that diminished. The focus of normal dragons is on CBs so people can build lineages. One of the things that makes holidays stand apart, to me, is that the focus is generally shifted to finding a pretty lineage that you want to continue. The multi-clutch feature is not only unique to these dragons, but it also greatly increases the hunter's success of finding something nice.

I happily give up my chance at a CB Holly, Yulebuck or 09 Val to have three or four second gen holidays from various Thuweds, prizes, or spriter alts floating around the AP as special gifts for people who many never be able to obtain those dragons any other way.

So, yeah. Not willing to sacrifice multi-clutching for reintroduced CBs.

Syphoneira · June 13, 2015

Speaking from my own selfish viewpoint, I would hate to lose the Holiday Walls - and as has been pointed out, the likelihood of most players being able to catch desired dragons in the Cave would be pretty much nil, if dropped as UnCommons...

The success of this would so very much depend on how it was handled, as to whether it worked for the membership in general or wound up being 'trade fodder time' for a few and a disappointment for many, on becoming a frantic and potentially fruitless ordeal rather than the relaxed Holiday fun we've been enjoying in recent years, especially considering that many have family commitments at such times and may be able to spare very little time for DC.

I hadn't been thinking about CB Hollies (grossly over-tired these days, lol,) but this would indeed be a way of preventing their eventual extinction if they're not to be distributed in the Raffle.

General thoughts/fantasies:

We were previously discussing raising the cap on Limited CB Holidays to 4 in total, which was generally agreed on that thread to be reasonable.

If we do not have annual limits on past CB Halloweens, however, the fastest will have plenty and everyone else will be out of luck, although this is likely to happen anyway, if they're Dropped at unCommon rates.

If the previous Holidays (older than 3 years back) were to be run in a Cave Flood during that breeding week, there would be a lot less Holiday breeding done, due to room issues, also giving everyone a chance to catch at least something they wanted/needed.

I'm lucky enough to have my current limit of all previous Limited CBs apart from Hollies so that even with postulated increased CB limits, there are only specific sprites I'd want as CBs, at least initially, and there are many others in a similar position, so there would likely be a much higher demand rate regarding certain more-widely desired/less obtainable sprites.

At Christmas, (this being my fantasy, and that being Christmas and all) I'd like to see a far higher rate of specifically CB Hollies Dropped than of the others, giving everyone a chance at DC's iconic Christmas sprite.

We're mostly here to collect dragons, not support trade values over their sprites and uses, after all, and the '07s and HMs would always be special anyway.

I'd personally rather see potential clutch size reduced to 3 than 2, especially as most people would breed far more selectively and probably later in the week as well, and many of us try to breed lineages that other people would like and be able to use, which can only be obtained at one brief period each year, although many checkers and others can be bred through the year for lineage progress toward the following year and for gifting - assuming that they've been able to get what they needed to proceed throughout that year or at the next breeding season, either from the AP or from swapping, something far less likely achievable with few or no extras hitting the AP.

Although if we have to have a trade-off bringing the Holiday clutch potential to two in order to expand lineage start/continuation potential for so many in that area, I expect it would over-all be worth-while.

But if the older Holidays were to be Dropped as unCommons in a mixed Cave and there were to be fewer Holiday breds in the AP, I'm afraid that Holidays would become dreaded again by a large portion of the membership...

And while some people might especially hate having everything devoted to Holidays only during these period, it would be only for these periods a total of 3 times a year and would make an awful lot of people very happy, and so, over-all, be worth-while.

Edit: Hi, RecycledHeart,

olympe would have just been trying to keep the Holidays fun for everyone, since a high percentage of people can't afford/access fast computers and connections and therefore get left out of both catching and breeding ability whenever there aren't enough dragons to go around in Releases.

I think everyone's aware that some people are faster catchers than others and will naturally get more and that this is entirely different than cheating, but in a game of this type, it's nice if everyone has a chance and can participate fruitfully and have fun.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Syphoneira

Pixxelation · June 13, 2015

Idk if that feels necessary, at least IMO. The CBs would only be an uncommon-to-rare drop, anyway, so it's not like there'd be a super high chance of finding them, and for Christmas and V-Day, there's a limit of 2-per-user. If anything, just a reduced chance of 4-egg clutches seems like it would compensate fine; anything more runs the risk of undersupplying.

Lurhstaap · June 13, 2015

Well, I can't speak for others, but I do want to let you know that even if multiclutches went away I would still breed my holidays for the AP, because many of them I got mates for solely so I could do exactly that. I have the holidays themselves, I didn't get them to breed for myself, but so that I could contribute to the breeding madness with pretties of my own. If multis go away, I'm sure I won't be the only one who continues to breed stuff into the AP. Plenty of people do that now with non-holidays, including rares.

With that said, though, I don't necessarily think the removal of multiclutching is necessary for balance anyway. The 2 (possibly 4) limit per person on Winter and V-Day eggs will keep people from excessively hoarding them by definition, and Halloweens will be controlled by variety and demand as I described before. People breed multis of Holidays not for their own benefit but for that of others anyway, so I'm not sure what the one really has to do with the other, anyway? Why does the return of CB holidays mean bred holidays need to be reduced in number? I mean, I'm personally still willing to accept that as a trade-off, but speaking as a game designer I just don't see the necessity. If anything, having more CBs around will mean more breeding of those species and more fun for all. Isn't that the idea? Holidays are still only available once a year for a week at best - that's plenty strong a control on their numbers, honestly.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Lurhstaap

djengis · June 13, 2015

I would love this!

djengis · June 13, 2015

Nooo, then i prefer clutches over CB holidays.

I love scavenging the AP for goodies

olympe · June 13, 2015

That may or may not be true - but I dare say that the number of holiday eggs will be greatly reduced. There will be fewer eggs in the AP if multiclutches get resized to 2 or 3 eggs, period. There will be even fewer eggs if, as was suggested on this very page, the old holiday dragons drop during the breeding window - because quite a few people will favor catching old CBs over their breeding projects.

Of course, sifting through numerous eggs of the same handful of breeds is tedious - but also very rewarding. Because it's not only the ever-present fast catchers who get all the good stuff. Checking lineages takes time (thus the tediousness), but also helps to give people more of an equal footing.

That's why I'd like to see very strict scroll-wide limits for CBs. 2 of every V'day or Winter Holiday breed, and (maybe) 8 for every Halloween breed (starting the year of the re-release). I could also accept limits that are twice that, as long as they affect all the CB dragons on your scroll. But I'm very strongly against a "+2 per year / 2 growing CBs of each breed" limit.

Edited June 13, 2015 by olympe

RecycledHeart · June 13, 2015

Ah I'm sorry then. I jumped to conclusions and that was wrong. I apologize.

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