Make CB Golds **slighty** less rare

[cyradis4]

This is the reason you don't see many common x common lineages:

http://dragcave.net/progeny/WshmX

(There are more than 30 there, and many were killed over the year+ I was breeding them, and I didn't get any no interests at all until the weeks just before I got the Albino)

 

With Rare x Common, its expected and you can deal with it. But nothing matches the frustration of breeding for over a year, trying to get a common breed from another common breed. Its.... Brutal. And actually, its easier to breed some commons x Rares than it is to breed common x common! Case in point:

http://dragcave.net/progeny/48XVU

 

2 Golds in the time it took to get that single Albino.

 

So the reason you don't see more common x common lines is that one common almost always totally dominates the other, to the point where you want to pull your hair out. So, many people just avoid the problem and don't breed common x common. I know I avoid those common x common lines where one breed dominates the other, I don't need that frustration in a game. I can completed an uncommon x uncommon line, or most RARE x uncommon lines, in the time it takes to get all of the 2nd gens of some common x common lines (and I take most lines out to 4th or 5th gen! And own 8 or more pairs of every breed).

 

I've got a suggestion in Breed Specific Actions to help with it, and there's another floating around here that would also help.

 

And of course.... NOT breeding commons feeds back (negatively) into the ratios, skewing things for the metals further out of whack.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited May 26, 2015 by cyradis4

[Dragon_Arbock]

@cyradis4-

I guess that can be an issue too.. I personally haven't had that be overly much of a problem, but I think I picked 2 commons that are about the same in ratios.

 

Anyway, this is why the ratio system doesn't work- not for rares, and not even for some commons, because you either get an overabundance of breeds people don't necessarily want, but because of that they become even more of a blocker- or, you have the rare that are sought after because they're rare, then because of ratios, the more people have, the rarer they get.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Dragon_Arbock

[cyradis4]

@cyradis4-

I guess that can be an issue too.. I personally haven't had that be overly much of a problem, but I think I picked 2 commons that are about the same in ratios.

 

Anyway, this is why the ratio system doesn't work- not for rares, and not even for some commons, because you either get an overabundance of breeds people don't necessarily want, but because of that they become even more of a blocker- or, you have the rare that are sought after because they're rare, then because of ratios, the more people have, the rarer they get.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say the system of RATIOS doesn't work, but more that the Cave doesn't have an in-built way to make undesirable eggs more desirable. Ie, it lacks "feedback", to be technical.

 

Over the years, there have been a number of suggestions made, but most revolve around utilizing people's unused hatchling slots. Most people, at any given time, have multiple open hatchie slots. If you can make those undesirable eggs into hatchies, just about anyone will be willing to give them a home, whether or not they actually want them.

 

Hence suggestions like, dumping eggs to the AP to become low-time eggs (which never stick around long in the AP), or having a hatchling biome (if an egg has sat in the Biomes long enough), or other similar ideas.

 

So.... Yea. The current system lacks a key component to make it work properly, and if we can add that last component, it'll work beautifully.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Dragon_Arbock]

Over the years, there have been a number of suggestions made, but most revolve around utilizing people's unused hatchling slots. Most people, at any given time, have multiple open hatchie slots. If you can make those undesirable eggs into hatchies, just about anyone will be willing to give them a home, whether or not they actually want them.

 

Hence suggestions like, dumping eggs to the AP to become low-time eggs (which never stick around long in the AP), or having a hatchling biome (if an egg has sat in the Biomes long enough), or other similar ideas.

 

So.... Yea. The current system lacks a key component to make it work properly, and if we can add that last component, it'll work beautifully.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Perhaps. I'd honestly like to see it in action- I know I have seen several of those threads over the years as well.. Has TJ ever come out and given any indication of interest in this as a possible feature? (I really would like to at least try the that system- it /could/ work, but it's dead in the water if TJ refuses).

[cyradis4]

Perhaps. I'd honestly like to see it in action- I know I have seen several of those threads over the years as well.. Has TJ ever come out and given any indication of interest in this as a possible feature? (I really would like to at least try the that system- it /could/ work, but it's dead in the water if TJ refuses).

TJ hasn't commented one way or another on the eggs to the AP suggestion nor either of the breeding threads, so we have no idea, one way or another. He usually nixes those that are hopeless, though, so..... At least there's a sliver of hope.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[KingSpinosaurus]

I think that if people would "mass-stop" breeding Golds/Silvers for trades they would be less rare and many other players would get a chance to have one CB metal.

I have heard that long ago Silvers weren't so rare as CBs,but due to lots and lots of people breeding them for trades,they got this rare.In my opinion it's the same thing with Golds.

Edited May 26, 2015 by KingSpinosaurus

[Tehya Faye]

Aren't bred ratios separate from cave ratios now?

[RecycledHeart]

I think they are which spiked the increase in caveborn golds and silvers in 2013 I believe

[Fiona]

First of all, if we're correct that breeding ratios and cave ratios were separated some time back, what's being bred has absolutely no effect on what drops in the cave. This supposition is supported by observation.

 

Second, there is no such thing as mass-breeding golds and silvers because the ratios don't support that kind of production. Getting a bred silver or gold is only slightly easier than getting one in the cave.

 

They weren't so rare as cb silvers and golds years ago, not because of over-breeding, but because there were less breeds then in the cave. The more common breeds are more likely to be produced than the rare ones and the cave is constantly trying to bring up the numbers of certain blocker breeds.

 

Changing the expected ratios of cb golds and silvers may not actually make a difference experientially unless the issue of blocker breeds is solved.

[Dragon_Arbock]

Breeding ratios counting or not, the ratios are still hurting the rares though. Are the rare ratios not tied directly to the amount of common dragons?

But actually, what I want to know is, does adding more and more common species hurt their chances of appearing even more?

Obviousness the addition of more and more breeds will keep hurting the rares, but at the same time, more breeds is an inevitable thing. This is why ratios are not a great idea when applied to the rares.

[PewterEyes]

Obviousness the addition of more and more breeds will keep hurting the rares, but at the same time, more breeds is an inevitable thing. This is why ratios are not a great idea when applied to the rares.

That's exactly why some users are asking to add more rares, not just the commons that we've seen added lately.

[Tehya Faye]

More rares would also provide variety to the trades. I'm trying to get a CB Gold, but I only have CB Silvers to offer. If I could offer a few of a different breed then the chances of finding a trade will go up, especially while the rare is new and people are trying to get the ones they need.

[PewterEyes]

More rares would also provide variety to the trades. I'm trying to get a CB Gold, but I only have CB Silvers to offer. If I could offer a few of a different breed then the chances of finding a trade will go up, especially while the rare is new and people are trying to get the ones they need.

You are right. I forgot that point but it is very important.

Edited May 26, 2015 by PewterEyes

[Syphoneira]

Lol, if we had new rares when most people don't even see CB Golds (I and many others don't see CB Silvers either, btw) in the Cave, we wouldn't see the new ones either, making the situation worse.

 

The same people able to catch (and especially those willing to cheat) would snap up the new rares and there would simply be MORE extreme rares which most people can't get for scroll completion and lineage starts/continuation - not more rares for those who can't catch CB Golds to offer in trades.

 

Especially if we continued to have the same issues with Blockers, where the ratios remain out of whack and nothing moves much in the biomes so that little variety shows.

 

 

I had a note yesterday from someone I'll miss talking to, to say good-by.

 

This was someone on a very fast computer who COULD catch rares but was upset by/worried about hostility or being accused of cheating because of this, and finding that the situation was making people very paranoid and restrictive, so that getting off work and coming onto the forums to relax was having the opposite effect.

 

This is one of the unfortunate results of scarcity situations, which serve the purpose of only a very few who profit by them while caring for nothing else - while even those who could/can profit by them but DO care about other aspects and people are also made unhappy.

 

 

[Guillotine]

Yeah, i'm... not really for new true rares. The new uncommons are bad enough, I can't imagine how much worse a rare would be. :/

 

I'd really just prefer that a combination of tweaking the ratios slightly and adding the gradual drop-to-ap-from-biomes thing, personally. I don't mind Golds/Silvers being rare, but right now they're just too rare, and it's making a destabilized market worse.

[PewterEyes]

Lol, if we had new rares when most people don't even see CB Golds (I and many others don't see CB Silvers either, btw) in the Cave, we wouldn't see the new ones either, making the situation worse.

I must disagree. If, for example, there are only 2 rare breeds and 50 (again, this is just an example) common breeds and we do not consider rarity ratio, you have 2 chances to get the uber rare and 50 to obtain the common. If you add 4 more rares without adding more commons, the chance of getting a rare should increase. Not only, on the initial release dates, people do not know yet if an egg will become rare or not, so there would be a bigger chance for everybody to snap those up.

 

Post: I agree with all the measures that have as objective to take care of the blockers problem, in particular sending unwanted eggs from the biomes to the Abandoned Page.

 

Edited May 26, 2015 by PewterEyes

[Tehya Faye]

There's only really 2 breeds that are really difficult to get right now. Coppers are relatively easy, Pyralspites seem to be coming back (at the very least I'm seeing Spessartine's as often as Green Coppers), and everything below them is trivial. Adding more true rares and implementing some way to balance out the ratios will be beneficial.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Tehya Faye

[AnanoKimi]

Lol, if we had new rares when most people don't even see CB Golds (I and many others don't see CB Silvers either, btw) in the Cave, we wouldn't see the new ones either, making the situation worse.

 

The same people able to catch (and especially those willing to cheat) would snap up the new rares and there would simply be MORE extreme rares which most people can't get for scroll completion and lineage starts/continuation - not more rares for those who can't catch CB Golds to offer in trades.

 

Especially if we continued to have the same issues with Blockers, where the ratios remain out of whack and nothing moves much in the biomes so that little variety shows.

 

 

I had a note yesterday from someone I'll miss talking to, to say good-by.

 

This was someone on a very fast computer who COULD catch rares but was upset by/worried about hostility or being accused of cheating because of this, and finding that the situation was making people very paranoid and restrictive, so that getting off work and coming onto the forums to relax was having the opposite effect.

 

This is one of the unfortunate results of scarcity situations, which serve the purpose of only a very few who profit by them while caring for nothing else - while even those who could/can profit by them but DO care about other aspects and people are also made unhappy.

You cant leta what if stop that though.

 

Adding in new rares to balance out the amount of uncommons and commons within the cave may shift the focus and maybe even spread it out should the rares be nice enough. I know Olympe doesn't want more pretty things she can't get but should a few more rares be added, we all might actually have a chance at them. Currently there are only a tiny hand full of rares, some of the rares aren't even rares to begin with, they just happen to be rare due to demand.

 

Lets say we have 5-6 rare breeds. All of these breeds are being coveted, hunted, nabbed, and raised by the hundreds to thousands of users on this site. That's a lot of strain and demand for only 5-6 rare breeds. Should we add another 5-6 that's now 10-12 rare breeds which given is not a whole lot, but those extra 5-6 new breeds already helped spread out the stress of the rare dragon dragon demand. These newer breeds will catch the attention of many for the first couple of weeks if not months as they try to get their fill and as such the once overly strained rares might be ignored long enough to make them a bit more accessible to others. Once the hype dies down the strain of wanting all the rares would now be spread out across 10-12 new breeds as opposed to only 5 or 6.

 

Hell even if there are 5-6 new breeds. It seems only a tiny sliver of that is really coveted meaning the hundreds to thousands of players are putting their focus on 2-3 breeds. Adding in new rares on a semi regular basis like once every 2-3 months which is 4-6 new rare breeds per year. With the fact that commons and uncommons are normally releases at 1-3 at a time, having 4-6 new rare breeds a year won't kill anyone. Should we hit another dry spell like the 6 month no regular release then that means we will be getting maybe only 3-4 rare releases a year which is still a decent number.

 

Common dragons are all nice and good but its definitely proven with the hype for metals and prize dragons that shinies are the biggest things some users are after. the rarer and shinier, the better, and the fact that TJ has not catered to this either means there are not enough good metal/rare breed concepts or that he hasn't seen this trend.

 

Should we have a new rare breed release (which should be limited to one breed per release) it wouldn't hurt to drop the rarity of golds, silvers and anything else in the ranks of super hard to get while everyone focuses on the new rare breed. Every new rare breed release could mean that whatever breeds are currently in high demand would have their rarity dropped a smidge to make it easier for those having a hard time with the new breeds to get something nice in the mean time.

[Ribombee]

I do agree with AnanoKimi that spreading it out can't really hurt the situation. I have a fast connection and good computers to work with. When I am seriously biome-hunting, I still can't concentrate on all the different descriptions at once. I pick one, maybe two, things to hunt for. If I am in the alpine, for example, I watch for silvers and ices (which happen to be two of my favourite sprites!). If I am gold-hunting, I go to the least populated biome, regardless of which one it is. Anyone playing legally can only focus on so much and click so fast. If there are a few more very rares and true rares (like green copper, which I think is a true rare, as you find it much less than the "rare" trios and it almost approaches silver in scarcity), that means there are more things for people to focus on. I might have all the golds I want, but maybe something new will come up, and I will instead want that. Then people might be hunting for that, opening up CB golds for people to get.

 

Obviously, we can't have all dragons be very rares. I think more truly uncommons and trio to green copper level rares would be helpful. Things that can act as a step up to silvers and to golds.

[olympe]

Right. Instead of 2 rares, let's have 12. That's 6 times as many shots I get at not even seeing something rare than I already have. Quite some difference. And I'm not alone.

 

Unless the amount of rare breeds gets raised very significantly by about an order of magnitude, more rare breeds will only be more breeds I cannot get as CB. And such an increase is highly unlikely.

 

Truth to be told, I have severe trouble with even uncommon breeds most of the time, and rare-due-to-high-demand breeds are as good as impossible for me most of the time. It's a good thing rarity changes over time, or I'd probably still be without CB blacks, stripes or vines - breeds that were very rare (as CB) due to high demand when I started.

[PewterEyes]

Right now there are trades in Prize Central asking for new releases. I think that two CB Prize owners just posted and was said earlier by someone that she has all the Golds and Silvers that she needs for now. I'm thinking that their interest on rare new releases could forecast an opportunity, for example, broadening the trading market.

 

Afterthought on this suggestion: OK, I understand that cui bono does not apply in your case. What about cui malo? Bad for whom?

Edited May 26, 2015 by PewterEyes

[Guillotine]

Doubtful. The scarcity issue would just transfer to the new rares; similar things have happened to rare-due-to-demand breeds and sprites in the past.

[PewterEyes]

If the number of commons keep being increased without adding rares, will be harder and harder to see rares in the biomes. Still didn't understand the cui malo part, who would be hurt by the suggestion. Anyway... back to lurking.

Edited May 26, 2015 by PewterEyes

[AnanoKimi]

So I guess we just leave it as is with like only a couple rares both by status and demand and just hope for the best then? Honeslt I can understand how some people want a shop but I actually like hunting the cave. I don't want my only options of getting metallics to be my Prize dragon and some boring old shop that rewards me for what I do normally. I want to feel the thrill of actually catching a rare in the cave.

 

Adding in more rares won't equal more things you cant catch. The reason things are so scarce now is because a very tiny amount of sprites are being demanded for, and there are not enough of them to cushion that blow. Think of it like walking on snow. I feel like the amount of rares we have now is the equivalent of trying to traverse deep snow in stilettos. spreading out the impact on many rare dragons could help cushion this demand. When the demand goes from only 3-4 things to about 10-12, it gives everyone a bit more of a chance to get in on it. On top of that dropping their rarity level just a smidge could mean they drop more often meaning more chances to see one and just maybe even catch one.

 

The demand would shift to the new rare for some time, yes, like when prizes were introduced. Everyone was absolutely stupified by them and wanted nothing more but to have them in their lives one way or another. Something similar will happen with rares but as more and more are added in, with enough demand for them from the users means that the strain on the rares will spread out meaning thosands of users will be spreading their attention between many rare breeds as opposed to just 3-4 breeds.

Edited May 26, 2015 by AnanoKimi

[Tehya Faye]

IF there were more rares I would get egglocked sooner and be unable to continue to hunt, allowing other people to grab rares. Putting all the strain on the CB Metals just keeps me hunting longer, increases competition for those few rares, and makes it more difficult for the average person to get any. I have grabbed probably close to a dozen CB Silvers just recently, Silvers that I wish could have gone to people who needed them more, but I don't have any other choice in the matter.