Make CB Golds **slighty** less rare

[Fiona]

Platinum is a stretch, as DC is set medieval-ish and platinum wasn't discovered on earth until 1500's to 1600's. (I'd have to look for an exact date) Emeralds, sure. The rest of what you have there are modern.

 

And actually, I haven't found 2nd gen golds or silvers to trade for a lot unless they're from my alts. Then, sure. Otherwise I tend to give them away. Right now anything higher than 2nd or 3rd gen of anything is pretty much without trade value. I don't see that part of your argument helping us.

[Syphoneira]

Well, there've certainly been numerous excellent points made, too many to list or quote.

 

So I'd like to just point out that we already have more than enough experience accumulated over the years to have learnt a few things, some of which follow.

 

 

A.) dragons which are unobtainable by most with reasonable time and effort create numerous problems within the site, not just within the trade market.

 

B.) we often can't really hunt properly in the biomes because they don't generally don't move much - refreshing the same/similar eggs is not hunting through anything

 

C.) the biomes aren't moving because the same dragons most people pretty much already have enough of keep being regenerated to be pumped out again every hourly

 

D.) People are not going to fill up their egg slots with dragons they don't want or need - they're here to collect/breed the ones they want.

 

E.) ANY Common will be snapped up from the AP by someone if it's ER and often very nearly as quickly if Incuhatchable

 

D.) dragons which are raised/Frozen to count into the ratios will cause a reduction in the Cave-produced numbers of these dragons

 

F.) if enough of the various Blocker breeds are raised/Frozen to balance the ratios more, the biomes will move because more variety will show

 

E.) with ratios better filled in the above manner, more less-common Commons, rares and unCommon dragons will be produced and show in the biomes, causing the biomes to move more quickly

 

F.) hunting will be more fun and productive so that more people will hunt the biomes more often and more people will spend more time on DC

 

G.) members overall have a better chance of catching - or at least seeing - the dragons they need for lineages, scroll completion, whatever - and can more fully participate in the game

 

H.) we have a long-running Suggestion which would bung untaken biome eggs into the AP to ideally come up as Incuhatchable/ER eggs so that the above could become reality

 

I) can't figure out why we're not doing this already and bringing in new dragons on a regular basis - and not unattainable rares only for the fastest and cheaters to catch and create more of the same damaging issues, but reasonably rare ones which can be caught with reasonable time and effort - to provide achievable goals in actual dragon collection/breeding for all members.

 

[Fiona]

That's a pretty succinct summation of the views expressed in this thread, Syphoneira. Just keep in mind that while we're basing these opinions on fairly solid experience we only think this is a solution to the problem. Only TJ Knows for Sure. He has knowledge of the inner workings that could potentially affect the outcome.

 

 

[Nerei]

Guys, just saw my first ever CB Gold in the coast! Clicked it immediately, so sure I'd finally snagged one... but no. So disappointing. And somehow, people manage to be locked with these eggs? I really just want a greater chance to have one. I think introducing more rares and having the cave move more would be two good ways.

[Syphoneira]

That's a pretty succinct summation of the views expressed in this thread, Syphoneira. Just keep in mind that while we're basing these opinions on fairly solid experience we only think this is a solution to the problem. Only TJ Knows for Sure. He has knowledge of the inner workings that could  potentially affect the outcome.

 

 

 

Very true!

 

Although without having that 'inside' information, I have to go by observation and inference, and might as well argue for things I hope would help.

 

 

 

 

NotBambi;

 

I hope you're saying that jokingly - Fiona would have been just making points in answer to yours.

 

And 2nd gen Golds/Silvers are really not that high in trade value.

 

 

The Prize problems developed because of a scarcity issue regarding low-gen dragons from a very small initial pool of CB Prizes where some of the desperate people able to catch large numbers of the next most valued dragons made the largest offers they could possibly manage to try to get on full and often stagnant Prize lists.

 

That set the bar - not so much what the Prize owners asked, but what was offered - and it all went to heck from there.

 

 

Things have improved drastically with the influx from the last large Prize distribution, even if it'll take time for many of the 2nd gen line to circulate among the non-swapping population, as obviously many CB Prize owners will want different lines and an enlarged collection/breeding pool, have their own lineage plans and ideas, etc., and may not very often want to trade for other dragons, at least until they've achieved their own goals in such areas.

 

Plus, Prizes do not breed shinies every time, perhaps taking months to squeeze out any, if a freely-breeding mate is chosen, so overall, it's slow going all around.

 

 

For many of us, the best solution would be to get away from these scarcity-created problems, rather than artificially maintaining them by introducing more dragons most people can't get.

 

Probably most of us are here to collect/breed the dragons we want, not to be stuck at not being able to get them and being unable to move on with planned lineages and to new and different goals.

 

So if we look at the site overall, what make a better playing experience for the bulk of current and prospective members - likely drawn from the very large pools of those unable to afford fast systems and those drawn to the lure of 'saving baby dragons' rather than 'trample all others in your rush to win' - is likely to be the better choice, at least from my perspective.

[Vhale]

Now that I can speak as a Prize Owner, let me add getting a shiny to gift can be very, very hard. I've gotten several eggs from Metal. Only three are shiny. I know I vamped a couple 2nd gen fails. I wanted a green nebula and shiny out of her. That took probably 2 months and a couple hatchy fails on the neb side. I tried at least 3 guardian mates as I wanted to gift a shimmer x Guardian to someone. But I never could get a shiny.

 

So, my choices with my shimmer are as follows. I can either keep slogging, trying to get commons x shimmer. All three shinies I've gotten since Feb. were not from commons. Magma. Nebula and GoN. So I can either keep breeding Shimmer x Rare and get guaranteed trades and slog along trying to do shimmer x common for gifts that may never happen. Which makes me sad.

 

So in part, it's not just that metals are rare, it's that it's way harder due to ratios, to get the common offspring. So the path of least resistance, most reward, is to go for the rares.

[The_Bucket]

Now that I can speak as a Prize Owner, let me add getting a shiny to gift can be very, very hard. I've gotten several eggs from Metal. Only three are shiny. I know I vamped a couple 2nd gen fails. I wanted a green nebula and shiny out of her.  That took probably 2 months and a couple hatchy fails on the neb side. I tried at least 3 guardian mates as I wanted to gift a shimmer x Guardian to someone. But I never could get a shiny.

 

So, my choices with my shimmer are as follows. I can either keep slogging, trying to get commons x shimmer. All three shinies I've gotten since Feb. were not from commons. Magma. Nebula and GoN. So I can either keep breeding Shimmer x Rare and get guaranteed trades and slog along trying to do shimmer x common for gifts that may never happen. Which makes me sad.

 

So in part, it's not just that metals are rare, it's that it's way harder due to ratios, to get the common offspring. So the path of least resistance, most reward, is to go for the rares.

I'm not sure I understand - why can't you breed rare pairings for gifts? Surely anyone worth gifting to would not turn their nose up at a gift because it's not a "common" pairing? Obviously some people will prefer certain pairings to others, but... I dunno.

Edited May 18, 2015 by The_Bucket

[Syphoneira]

The problem is that when people can't get the rares to use as mates to continue the lines, it's not much good gifting them these.

 

For newer people, I generally try to offer them (obviously not 2nd gens, since I don't have a CB, lol) lines with mates they have or can get fairly easily, because the lineage forms such a great part of the dragons value, for trading, gifting and prettiness.

 

 

Edit: also, people may want a particular pairing, perhaps because of wanting to do even-gens with a Prize-fail they may already have.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Syphoneira

[Vhale]

The problem is that when people can't get the rares to use as mates to continue the lines, it's not much good gifting them these.

That. At a certain point the cycle gets to be a circle. I can breed x Coppers and Pyralspites but the average person won't have those either. It really limits the potential lineages and makes them more currency than anything else.

[The_Bucket]

That. At a certain point the cycle gets to be a circle. I can breed x Coppers and Pyralspites but the average person won't have those either. It really limits the potential lineages and makes them more currency than anything else.

I would disagree. The only limited lineages are those too common/new to ever hope to get a shiny from. If somebody is being given a 2G prize, they can easily trade a 3G prize for a CB copper, or sometimes even a CB gold or silver. The average person might not have CB golds, silvers, almandine/spessartine pyralspites, etc, but I think a Copper is much more of an obtainable thing, so long as you are willing to look. Prizes can be treated as currency, and the majority of the DC market does, but I think that's entirely a user-generated mindset. That being said, I totally feel your pain about common breedings. I have so far only had success out of rare/holiday pairings, even though most of my favorite pairings are uncommons-commons.

 

This is also getting kind of off-topic-y.

[Syphoneira]

But how do they breed a 3rd gen out of their 2nd gen without having a suitable mate to do this?

 

Even if they manage to get one - or even several - Refusals can stymie all hopes and plans in an instant.

 

 

Edit: actually, since the topic is extreme rarity of certain sprites preventing people from accessing dragons necessary to the game, it's not possible to discuss this properly without reference to myriad aspects related to this, which also demonstrate how far-ranging the effects are for numerous members.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Syphoneira

[Vhale]

I would disagree. The only limited lineages are those too common/new to ever hope to get a shiny from. If somebody is being given a 2G prize, they can easily trade a 3G prize for a CB copper, or sometimes even a CB gold or silver. The average person might not have CB golds, silvers, almandine/spessartine pyralspites, etc, but I think a Copper is much more of an obtainable thing, so long as you are willing to look. Prizes can be treated as currency, and the majority of the DC market does, but I think that's entirely a user-generated mindset. That being said, I totally feel your pain about common breedings. I have so far only had success out of rare/holiday pairings, even though most of my favorite pairings are uncommons-commons.

 

This is also getting kind of off-topic-y.

But they have to have the CB rare/copper/pyralspite to be able to create the 3g prize. And most of the people I know, don't.

 

Personally, I think this helps drive up the price of rares beyond what they should be because it's not that people want them, it's just the easiest thing to get that trades well.

 

Syphoneira has leet posting skillz.

 

I've also strongly considered the best "use" of my shimmer would be to go for the easy shinies, get CB metals. Pass out CB metals to even-genners that don't have two of each. It would be more productive and spread more happiness than I've currently been capable of doing.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Vhale

[olympe]

Now that I can speak as a Prize Owner, let me add getting a shiny to gift can be very, very hard. I've gotten several eggs from Metal. Only three are shiny. I know I vamped a couple 2nd gen fails. I wanted a green nebula and shiny out of her. That took probably 2 months and a couple hatchy fails on the neb side. I tried at least 3 guardian mates as I wanted to gift a shimmer x Guardian to someone. But I never could get a shiny.

 

So, my choices with my shimmer are as follows. I can either keep slogging, trying to get commons x shimmer. All three shinies I've gotten since Feb. were not from commons. Magma. Nebula and GoN. So I can either keep breeding Shimmer x Rare and get guaranteed trades and slog along trying to do shimmer x common for gifts that may never happen. Which makes me sad.

 

So in part, it's not just that metals are rare, it's that it's way harder due to ratios, to get the common offspring. So the path of least resistance, most reward, is to go for the rares.

Being the owner of the oldest of those 2nd gens (Metal x magma), I can attest to that. I breed her almost as soon as she comes off cooldown, sometimes a day or two later. I got two shimmers in the almost 3 months I've had her.

[Dragon_Arbock]

I've been here since 09 and only have one CB Silver, and no CB Golds.

I remember when CB Blacks and Stripes were almost crazy rare too, but biomes sort of helped alleviate that.

 

/Maybe/ if we had more biomes so the species were spread a bit thinner there'd be a better chance to find not only rares, but the current impossibles as well (Blusangs, Almandines, Spessartines, etc).

 

Of course, I could get down with the idea of sending eggs to the AP too.

[Tehya Faye]

Blusangs are pretty easy to get and see nowadays. Definitely not impossible, not in the least.

[FiveSix]

Yeah I have to deliberately force myself not to click Blusangs >_< I've been hanging out more than usual in the biomes the last couple of days and seen a couple of metallics, which is somewhat heartening but not great considering how long I've spent (and that I still can't catch them ).

[Evangeline]

Golds are hardly exceedingly rare. There are just a lot of people who tend to hog them for trading and then there are those lucky few that catch them for themselves.

 

You just have to have good timing and fast reflexes.

 

*coughs* Oh yeah, and fast/decent wifi.

Edited May 19, 2015 by evangeline5432

[Jazeki]

I've been here since 09 and only have one CB Silver, and no CB Golds.

I remember when CB Blacks and Stripes were almost crazy rare too, but biomes sort of helped alleviate that.

 

/Maybe/ if we had more biomes so the species were spread a bit thinner there'd be a better chance to find not only rares, but the current impossibles as well (Blusangs, Almandines, Spessartines, etc).

 

Of course, I could get down with the idea of sending eggs to the AP too.

It's been mentioned in the other thread on adding biomes that doing so will have the possibility of slowing down the movement of eggs even more since more biomes means more eggs have to be created by the cave.

[SullenCat]

Do not support decreasing rarity. Full support for adding more rares.

Edited May 20, 2015 by SullenCat

[olympe]

Do not support decreasing rarity. Full support for adding more rares.

Could you please elaborate? I'd really like to know the reason for your stance.

[AnanoKimi]

I would disagree. The only limited lineages are those too common/new to ever hope to get a shiny from. If somebody is being given a 2G prize, they can easily trade a 3G prize for a CB copper, or sometimes even a CB gold or silver. The average person might not have CB golds, silvers, almandine/spessartine pyralspites, etc, but I think a Copper is much more of an obtainable thing, so long as you are willing to look. Prizes can be treated as currency, and the majority of the DC market does, but I think that's entirely a user-generated mindset. That being said, I totally feel your pain about common breedings. I have so far only had success out of rare/holiday pairings, even though most of my favorite pairings are uncommons-commons.

 

This is also getting kind of off-topic-y.

Oh kind user you have no idea of the qualms of breeding with a prize dragon. Yes breeding Prize x Rare will more often than not guarantee you something nice regardless of outcome, but as many have said, take a look at most average users' scrolls. Tell me of all the golds, coppers, silvers, Coastal Pyralspites and Alpine Pyralspites they own. They dont. Most users don't have the propper access to a gold to continue a gold x prize line or a coat pyralspite to continue a coast pyral x prize line. Those are worthless to the recipient because they cannot propperly continue the line and either trade for something useful or gift to others.

 

Unless you do not plan on breeding a prize x rare line, why would you want one if you will have no way to propperly produce an offspring to continue the lineage? What use is a 2nd gen prize x rare prize baby that will only sit there as a scroll divider and look pretty? Its not of much use.

 

The issue with rares as well as commons is the issue with ratios. There are waaaaay more commons than rares, not because "rares are meant to be rares," but because everyone is grabbing the rares and no one is grabbing the commons. This doesnt just affect the cave, it affects breeding. The less of a common breed that is circulating scrolls and being raised, the more the system will think it needs to produce, so anything slightly more desirable that the common in question will be negated by the the common with less circulation.

 

Lets make a what if.

 

Falconiform x olive for example. Lets say falconiforms are extremely underrated and no one even bats an eye at them. They are ignored, barely bred, barely picked up. Olives are a bit more desirable, not much, but are still bred and picked up a bit more often than flaconiforms. Lets say that for every 1 falconform egg taken and raised, 5 olive eggs are picked up and raised along side it. That means that there are less falconiforms out and about. As such the system overcompensates by producing more falconiforms. Now if we breed a falconiform x olive (common x common) 1 out of every lets say 10 eggs will be an olive. Why? because the system knows there are already enough olives out there in comparison to the falconiform mate. The system does not see it as necessary that this pair should breed an olive since falconiforms are the ones being picked up and raised less. So what happens, you continue to have a 1 in 10 chance of getting an olive every single breeding, meaning that more often than not you are obtaining mostly falconiforms from this pair. Now lets use rare x common. There are more than enough rares being caught, bred and raised. as such the system feels no need to create more rares, instead it will create more commons from a rare x common breeding because commons are under popluated as opposed to the rare mate.

 

So the more the system thinks it needs to continue making a certain undesired breed, the less of the more desired breeds we will see. Thats why suggestions like kicking eggs to the AP is such a great idea because it makes the undesired common blockers, more desirable and in turn beginning to even out the system in how many of the dragon is now being raised and bred. On top of maybe dropping some of the rarity value to make them a bit more abundant would help too. Some of the issue is users, another part of the issue is the system.

Edited May 21, 2015 by AnanoKimi

[FiveSix]

Above is a good point.

 

I may soon to be in a position to trade for a 2G Prize to breed 3Gs to get the rares I am absolutely unable to catch, but my lack of existing CB super-rares means I will have to hope someone thinks what I'm offering is worth a more expensive 2G-from-common in order to be sure of a mate.

 

I think rare is going to silly levels when someone can consider themself as lucky in this game as I do and still doubt the possibility of ever getting a CB Gold, and it hurts my brain to think I'm jumping through the 2G Thuwed hoop to reach the 2G prize hoop to get Silvers and Golds that everyone should have a chance of catching in cave >_<

[olympe]

So the more the system thinks it needs to continue making a certain undesired breed, the less of the more desired breeds we will see. Thats why suggestions like kicking eggs to the AP is such a great idea because it makes the undesired common blockers, more desirable and in turn beginning to even out the system in how many of the dragon is now being raised and bred. On top of maybe dropping some of the rarity value to make them a bit more abundant would help too. Some of the issue is users, another part of the issue is the system.

Too true. But if you consider that there are more than 10,000 active users, you'll have to admit that it's impossible to make all of them change their play style. And even if, by some miracle, you manage just that, it's still the same people who will catch all the rares.

 

But it's possible for TJ to change how the site works...

[AnanoKimi]

Definitely Olympe thats why again the suggestion of kicking eggs to the AP is such a good one. It plays with the concept of these ratios to our favor and not just that makes us collect those commons we kind of like and would love to nab now and then but wont to avoid locking ourselves with a needless egg when we need something a bit more desirable for whatever purpose that might be.

[Syphoneira]

Too true. But if you consider that there are more than 10,000 active users, you'll have to admit that it's impossible to make all of them change their play style. And even if, by some miracle, you manage just that, it's still the same people who will catch all the rares.

 

But it's possible for TJ to change how the site works...

 

 

That's the cool thing about the suggestion to bung the untaken eggs into the AP at the 5-minute shuffle to surface as lower-time eggs.

 

Since so many of us tend to pork out on Incuhatchable/ER hatchies when they're available, and will then take many Common types we wouldn't tie up preciousssss egg slots with at full-time, nobody's being asked or expected to change their playing style or to take unwanted dragons.

 

It would actually be a bonus for many members, one which would help to balance the ratios which have been fouling up hunting one way or another practically forever, and for which we've been begging some player-responsive fix during that entire period.

 

 

With more Commons raised, more biome movement and more people hunting more, more rares/unCommons would be generated and appear, setting up a positive cycle where a wider range of members had a better chance of at least seeing them.

 

If the rares become less rare, the odds are that more and different people would also catch some, gradually reducing the trade prices and the emphasis on them as 'trade fodder' (edit: thereby becoming more inclusive of) people who actually need them for their own scroll uses, rather than as with trading such mass quantities for 2nd gen Prizes as to have been unprecedented, creating a self-maintaining cycle of scarcity shutting many members out of various lineages and all hope of scroll completion, as well as the Prize issues overshadowing everything for so long and just improving now.

 

A limited trade economy is not sustainable - and the site and community surely matter more than that those having the money for the fastest systems be able to keep that economy/ability to obtain dragons restricted to themselves, lol.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Syphoneira