Refuse to Have Refusals!

[danicast]

No, it doesn't kill the game. Again, it doesn't stop you from collecting other dragons. Yes, they can be frustrating, and that's why I want ways to reverse them or have longer cooldowns so they aren't totally permanent.

 

While it's hard to get those dragons, to the game, you can always get more, is what I'm saying.

 

Refusals really only have such an impact because users want to breed certain special dragons together for lineages, but it's really just bad luck.

 

Honestly I don't agree that they add "nothing" to the game. Not exactly challenge. What they add is a reason to get more dragons; it's a way to try to get the players to collect more dragons because, as said, this is a collecting game. Frustrating function, and there are many other things that encourage more collecting, but I don't think we should get rid of it. Nerf it some, sure, but not get rid of.

 

But I think I've said these things again and again and neither side is budging, so. *shrugs* I just don't agree that they should be totally removed.

You can keep repeating this over and over, it's not going to change different opinions. I think that everybody already understood your opinion. Let's see other players opinions about it.

[Fuzzbucket]

You can keep repeating this over and over, it's not going to change different opinions. I think that everybody already understood your opinion. Let's see other players opinions about it.

OK - another. I agree with edwardelricfreak - though I do also feel your pain - I have had critical refusals in my time too, and lineages are a MAJOR part of my game play.

[Myra the Sark]

I honestly see refusals as pointless and extremely annoying.

I notice that it always seems to happen for dragons who were bred for each other as well. Particularly if one was a gift, and the person has no way of obtaining a replacement. Or with the very-rare dragons such as Golds and Silvers.

[edwardelricfreak]

I notice that it always seems to happen for dragons who were bred for each other as well. Particularly if one was a gift, and the person has no way of obtaining a replacement. Or with the very-rare dragons such as Golds and Silvers.

That is purely coincidence. If you were to breed any and all of your dragons together, you'd probably find it just being a random occurrence and not specifically directed at the rares/specials you're really wanting to breed. Considering that those are usually the only dragons that are bred, you notice the refusals more.

[danicast]

That is purely coincidence. If you were to breed any and all of your dragons together, you'd probably find it just being a random occurrence and not specifically directed at the rares/specials you're really wanting to breed. Considering that those are usually the only dragons that are bred, you notice the refusals more.

I think the only person really qualified to explain how refusals really work - if they are random, if they have some kind of ratio, if depends of the breed or the lineage - it's TJ himself. Any other attempt to explain how refusals works are just guesses.

[edwardelricfreak]

Well, I seriously doubt that they specifically target rares, etc. :\ Maybe slightly more just because they're rare.

Edited August 15, 2014 by edwardelricfreak

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't think they target rares either. My most annoying refusals have been high up in lineages of commons - specifically my 8th gen greys and my Europe lines. Believe me, a common refusal at 7th gen is REALLY upsetting, just as much so as that 2 gen gold you'd hoped for.

 

 

*"you" is used generically...*

Edited August 15, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[KageSora]

I still really, really hate refusals.

 

You can claim that all dragons are replaceable, but the simple fact of the matter is that they are not. If you have a CB prize that you kill by mistake and fail to revive, you cannot replace it with another CB prize unless you're obscenely lucky. If you have a CB holiday that dies, again, you can't replace it unless it's one of the ones offered through the raffle and you win. If you have a dragon with a specific code, you cannot replace that.

 

Dragons, as a simple breed, can be replaced--but many, if not most, players put value on things that cannot be replicated.

 

The way people play the game has evolved. That is undeniable fact. And because of that, I think it's important to consider the evolution of the playerbase when thinking of things like "should refusals be kept in the game".

 

For many people, a refusal would be on par with their dragon suddenly becoming infertile or dying when bred--because that line becomes impossible to continue, because the mates are either actually irreplaceable or so hard to replace they may as well be.

 

The game itself may consider all dragons of a breed equal, but the game doesn't play itself. The game can in fact become unplayable to users who find their goals foiled. The game becomes less fun, perhaps a chore in that instance where their prized lines are dead, and they can and do leave. (And it's a 100% valid reason for quitting a game, before anybody comes in with that utter BS about "well that's a ridiculous reason to quit".)

 

Some means of preventing, reversing, and/or removing refusals is really something that should be seriously considered due to how the breeding of dragons for lineages has become such a large part of the game for a number of users.

 

Adding it in will do nothing to detract from the game for those who don't care.

Edited August 15, 2014 by KageSora

[DragonNighthowler]

The game itself may consider all dragons of a breed equal, but the game doesn't play itself. The game can in fact become unplayable to users who find their goals foiled. The game becomes less fun, perhaps a chore in that instance where their prized lines are dead, and they can and do leave. (And it's a 100% valid reason for quitting a game, before anybody comes in with that utter BS about "well that's a ridiculous reason to quit".)

 

Some means of preventing, reversing, and/or removing refusals is really something that should be seriously considered due to how the breeding of dragons for lineages has become such a large part of the game for a number of users.

 

Adding it in will do nothing to detract from the game for those who don't care.

Agreed completely, specially on the text quoted. The game is not a separate entity, nor is it a sentient being, or a static unchangeable thing. The game has evolved accordingly to the player base and it keeps doing so. Maybe it did start as a collecting game, but it is not longer only a collecting game and thus every dimension of it IS part of the game and should be taken into consideration.

If players stop playing because these sort of things DO break their game, and these players are a high enough number, it is game over for everyone because the game will simply stop being.

[AnanoKimi]

Refusals can be game breaking to the collection extexnt. Why? The introduction of hybrids. Hybrids are part of the collection and sometimes if a certain dragon refuses its a pain to go collecting what you need. Now obtaining a replaceent may not be hard but sometimes it is annoying.

 

This game has 2 main objectives:

 

- Collect all breeds available either through hunting or breeding.

 

- Breed and expand your collection through hybrids and/or lineages.

 

With the ability to see lineages for a dragon I would like to argue that Lineage making is a core part of the game. Just because it is not embraced by all does not make it a now core objective of the game. If lineage making was not a core part then why on earth would lineages even exist? what would be the importance of seeing what breed the grand parents where, how inbred is it, or what kind of breeds its whole line consists of.

 

Lineage creation is a core part of the game. I my self do not embrace it entirely but I do acknowledge this fact. You can sit there and say "No it isn't, it wasn't originally." It may not have been originally but since the introduction of lineages it has become part of the game. Stop saying it is not. Lineage creation has caused debates in terms of rare breeding ratio, prize breed distribution, and now refusals. All major game areas that influence such a valued and now major part of this game.

 

With that out of the way, refusals add no game value to breeding. It doesn't make me want to breed more and it frustrates many who breed uncommon dragons or long lineages into rethinking a new partner or for users to sit and click until they find the egg they need. This feature is not a challenge, it is just a frustrating wall that gets in the way of many breeding projects and personal breeding agendas.

Edited August 16, 2014 by AnanoKimi

[Pixxelation]

To those arguing that lineages are not a main objective, I saw this the other day when I wasn't logged in and clicked on a trade link.

Edited August 29, 2014 by PieMaster

[KageSora]

To those arguing that lineages are not a main objective, I saw this the other day when I wasn't logged in and clicked on a trade link.

Huh, interesting. Just checked that myself and it's rather interesting that on the "introduction" page for when you click "help" that all it says is "The goal is to grab dragon eggs and raise them to adulthood by having others click on them." And yet it says that if you try to click a teleport/transfer link while not logged in.

 

Odd inconsistency, but there's no doubt that lineages are a core aspect of the game since a place on the site does, in fact, say that. (Unless it's not supposed to say that for some reason)

[edwardelricfreak]

No, that little blurb Pie linked is just stating what can be done in the game; it's highlighting its features. The goal of the game is still to collect dragons, as Kage said.

 

Lineages are a bit part of the site but they're still not the goal/main objective. They are an objective, but not the MAIN one.

 

In Pokemon, there are many objectives and things you can do like collecting all the Pokemon or training a perfect team or something, but the main goal of the game is to become the Champion. It's not to stop the bad guys, it's not to finish the Pokedex, and it's not to defeat the gym leaders; ultimately, your goal in the game is to become the Champion. There are various tasks and objectives along the way, but they are essentially your lineages in this case. :U I would say that lineages are definitely a huge PERSONAL goal that many people have in common, but they are not the goal of the game. c:

 

All the blurb is saying is that you can do all those things, just like Pokemon usually says stuff about catching all the Pokemon, etc.

Edited August 29, 2014 by edwardelricfreak

[TheShyDragoness]

I must say I agree with this, I was trying to breed desipis out of season and I wasnt aware why It kept refusing all the time so even just a message saying "Now is not the time for the Species to Mate" Would be nice and make it easier to understand, Refusals suck...

[Syphoneira]

I agree with too many people to quote them all...

 

Permanent Refusals don't seem to be adding anything positive to the game; we get enough pointless frustration in RL, where Refusals are, as has been pointed out, not always permanent, and it too-often does happen to dragons which are not easily - or at all - replaceable.

 

The game has indeed evolved far beyond a simple collecting game.

[Pixxelation]

No, that little blurb Pie linked is just stating what can be done in the game; it's highlighting its features. The goal of the game is still to collect dragons, as Kage said.

 

Lineages are a bit part of the site but they're still not the goal/main objective. They are an objective, but not the MAIN one.

 

In Pokemon, there are many objectives and things you can do like collecting all the Pokemon or training a perfect team or something, but the main goal of the game is to become the Champion. It's not to stop the bad guys, it's not to finish the Pokedex, and it's not to defeat the gym leaders; ultimately, your goal in the game is to become the Champion. There are various tasks and objectives along the way, but they are essentially your lineages in this case. :U I would say that lineages are definitely a huge PERSONAL goal that many people have in common, but they are not the goal of the game. c:

 

All the blurb is saying is that you can do all those things, just like Pokemon usually says stuff about catching all the Pokemon, etc.

There is no main objective of the game. To quote the linked image, "You're free to play however you want!" That means there are no objectives, as you can do literally whatever you want. If you want to do nothing but kill eggs, you can.

 

The linked image lists core aspects of the game; ones that aren't necessary to follow or value, but are the most widely used ones. Lineages are a widely popular gameplay aspect, and refusals get in the way of building them. As many have said, they are game-breaking and don't add anything to the game. That is why this suggestion is here :3

[Keileon]

Even having had a refusal today (two 4G mates for a GW x SW checker) I'm mostly neutral on this. Yeah, refusals are annoying, but unless we're talking CB prizes or a Frill for a checker things are normally replaceable (and even if they aren't, their mates are.) I like the thought of our dragons not being able to stand certain other dragons because it shows that these little clusters of pixels aren't at our beck and call all the time.

 

Yeah, it's hard, and I wouldn't so much as shrug if they were removed entirely, but I don't really have an opinion here. Though I do want to keep the mechanic in place for out-of-season Holidays and the like (rather than getting "no interest" as that'll confuse new players).

[Syphoneira]

Well, Refusals DO make sense for out-of season Holidays.

 

Gorgeous AP finds having no scroll name showing which are highly complex or involving Spriter's Alts/discontinued breeds, and the like may never be replaceable, and it may take months or years for slower people to obtain more of the most hard-to-obtain CB dragons following Refusals.

 

Bulls never seem to to object to cows in breeding mode, lizards in suitable conditions and in breeding season (edit: don't) seem to issue permanent Refusals, and since the human servers baby-sit any eggs resulting from pairings, I fail to see why dragons would, either, lol.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Syphoneira

[Keileon]

We know that DC dragons are at least somewhat sapient, though. Most nonsapient animals have a breeding season, or the female goes into heat at a certain interval; the way most of us breed our dragons don't follow that. We breed them far more often than most animals breed in the wild.

 

And guess what? A small subset of dragons- holiday breeds- have specific breeding seasons. And they don't refuse in-season. So the analogy works there.

 

I don't think a sapient creature is going to outright accept any other sapient creature of its species. I'm sure that everyone here has at least one person that under no circumstances would they have a child with.

[LibbyLishly]

I don't think a sapient creature is going to outright accept any other sapient creature of its species. I'm sure that everyone here has at least one person that under no circumstances would they have a child with.

The thing is, sapient creatures can also strongly dislike - even hate - someone at one point or another, only for both parties to mature later and get along, and there are millions of stories of romance with such a background. (Pride and Prejudice, anyone?)

 

This is why refusals should not be permanent. Not showing interest in each other is realistic - there's at least a chance of overcoming it, though the fact is you might never get past the lack of interest (I have more than one breeding pair I have that problem with, even with the use of Fertility). But to continue to despise and refuse to even go near someone is a sign of immaturity more often than not, and it's stupid that such an initial response is considered permanent for our dragons. To never ever be able to try again after that reaction? Ridiculous.

Edited November 15, 2014 by LibbyLishly

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I don't think a sapient creature is going to outright accept any other sapient creature of its species. I'm sure that everyone here has at least one person that under no circumstances would they have a child with.

Even having had a refusal today (two 4G mates for a GW x SW checker) I'm mostly neutral on this. Yeah, refusals are annoying, but unless we're talking CB prizes or a Frill for a checker things are normally replaceable (and even if they aren't, their mates are.) I like the thought of our dragons not being able to stand certain other dragons because it shows that these little clusters of pixels aren't at our beck and call all the time.

 

Alright, let me address both in turn. While I completely understand what you're saying (I view our dragons as sapient too, and I agree that some sapient beings will just NEVER get along), the fact is that game play trumps logic when it needs to. The same logic that says two intelligent beings should have a chance to reject each other says those same intelligent beings should have the chance to keep us from trying to get rid of their beloved eggs (whether that be via trading, abandoning, or smashing), to rip our faces off if we try to slay them, and to take revenge on us if we're extremely cruel to our dragons (like by starving young dragons for zombie or neglected fodder). However, none of those things happen, for rather obvious reasons, so I don't think that can be the end-all argument for permanent refusals, either.

 

Accordingly, what I'd find best is some type of compromise. Either a very limited BSA of some type that can remove refusals, but can only be used so infrequently that people will be very careful in their choices (see reconcile), or making refusals essentially an ultra nasty version of a 'no eggs produced' in which the dragons might refuse to breed with each other for a time--two weeks, a month, whatever--but will, eventually, be able to breed again. Solutions like this would keep some character to our dragons, and in easily replaceable cases probably result in the owners breeding a new mate anyway (why wait a month for a 2g Pillow from Marrow to come off CD, after all, if you can breed a new one within a week?), but would also keep the worst cases from happening.

 

Because while refusals CAN add character to our dragons, they can also be extremely agonizing to game play goals. I had a 2g Prize remove a matching 2g Prizekin once. Not at all fun, and it was a real blessing that the Prizekin breeder kindly offered to replace it. I also had a 2g Prize from Rosebud, and I have only one CB Rosebud, so while (thankfully!) nothing went wrong there, it could have gone extremely wrong. I also had a 4g SW from a Silver checker refuse a matching mate this week (not going to be replacing either of those anytime soon...), and other people likely have similar horror stories all the way down the spectrum from rares to uniquely lined commons. It's just really miserable, to the point where if something isn't rare I've just started killing them after refusal to at least not have a reminder of how annoying the whole affair was hanging around on my scroll ;___;

Edited November 15, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Reidragon]

No support. I for one like the frustration sometimes thrown my way by a refusal. It makes the game more challenging for me. If I got whatever I wanted every time I bred I would rapidly grow bored because, although annoying, one of the biggest challenges to the game for me would be removed. This is why this suggestion gains no support from me.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Reidragon

[Mondat]

I have been watching this suggestion for a while and finally came in to say: No. No support.

 

While it may be annoying to have the same male CB Red refuse two CB Red ladies in a row as I have had for example, I quite like that players do not always get what they want: straight refusals, no eggs produced, no interest, getting the type of breed you actually do not want/need.

[And if we're talking about rare lineages....if my 2G prize had refused the perfect 2G prizekin I would have been annoyed of course....and had moved on. There are lots of other dragons I can breed and stuff I can do. Correction: there are too many things I can do and not enough egg space!]

[Reidragon]

I have been watching this suggestion for a while and finally came in to say: No. No support.

 

While it may be annoying to have the same male CB Red refuse two CB Red ladies in a row as I have had for example, I quite like that players do not always get what they want: straight refusals, no eggs produced, no interest, getting the type of breed you actually do not want/need.

[And if we're talking about rare lineages....if my 2G prize had refused the perfect 2G prizekin I would have been annoyed of course....and had moved on. There are lots of other dragons I can breed and stuff I can do. Correction: there are too many things I can do and not enough egg space!]

This echoes my feelings exactly. Is a refusal annoying? Oh heck yes. But I just work on replacing the mate or try something else. To me it's just like in life. Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too. Plus it inserts a 'challenge accepted!' Feeling in this game which, for me, tends to be lacking everywhere else.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Reidragon

[Sundew]

I'd be in favor of a BSA with a very long cooldown that would reset one pair of refused dragons. However, I don't want refusals to go away entirely. It'd be kind of boring without them.