Improve Prize Breeding Ratios

[angelicdragonpuppy]

As a winner, you're extremely excited about your luck! You cackle maniacally at the thought of all the wealth you'll now receive. Except, oh, it's been three months now and your Prize hasn't bred true once... so much for trading.

 

As a trader, you're extremely excited to see all the new Prize winners. You cackle maniacally as you prepare some shinies with which to trade for a second gen one. Except, oh, it's been three months and the lists you're hoping to get on haven't budged once... so much for that idea.

 

As a breeder, you're extremely excited to have finally obtained a low gen Prize. You cackle maniacally at the thought of how excited your recipients will be when you give them an egg. Except, oh, it's been three months and you've nothing but prize fails to show for it... so much for glomping.

 

The moral of the story, kids, is Prizes breeding lousy is no fun for anyone. So why not have them breed better? Gives Prize winners a guaranteed useful dragon instead of a sterile stud and spreads low gens more rapidly through the community. Lists start moving again and as a result second gen Prizes become a bit more accessible.

 

Current ideas are to have CB Prizes have a guaranteed 50% shot at breeding true whenever they do breed (higher if their partner is rare), and / or to increase the general breeding success of all Prizes. Discuss!

 

Other Raffle Suggestions:

- Eventual in-cave release

- More raffles

- Coal colored consolation prize

- Prize multiclutching

Edited February 6, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[TJ09]

I would like to see actual evidence of need for this. The post I quoted in the other thread claims that "reports suggest that ..."

 

That smells of the usual rumor-spreading that is so rampant here.

[cyradis4]

I like the idea of prizes breeding better. They are Prizes, and hence special, so why not have them not governed by the ratios?

 

Or, have a flip of the coin when they breed. Heads, its a shiny, tails, the ratios treat them like a Holiday.

 

 

Edit:

TJ: Count the number of 2nd gen prizes that the CB Tinsels have produced in the last 12 months. Gold Epica, for instance, has only, what, 14 shinies in 3 years of breeding? And she went for 12 months between one shiny and the other. She's one of the worst, mind, but the others still don't have a huge offspring list of shinies, despite some of them being bred religiously.

 

The other bred Tinsels went through the same drought period, where you could breed 100 Tinsels and didn't get a single shiny egg. I know, I did it for several months, and my actions log was completely taken up with "Bred so and so to so and so" each time.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 5, 2014 by cyradis4

[MissK.]

I would like to see actual evidence of need for this. The post I quoted in the other thread claims that "reports suggest that ..."

 

That smells of the usual rumor-spreading that is so rampant here.

What exactly do you mean by evidence? I know for a fact that my own shinies have been quite stingy, the brightest example being my CB Tinsel which hasn't bred true since June 16th. That's almost 8 months ago and I've been breeding her every week using fertility. Yes, I'm trying to breed to commons, but one would think the success rate wouldn't be as low as that. Similarly other Tinsels and Shimmers of mine with common mates refuse to breed for months on end.

 

So what constitutes actual evidence? Should someone make a thread with a spreadsheet and statistics?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

There was a post in the old thread that really solidified the matter for me, one listing the really dismal amount of 2g Prizes compared to CBs. Can someone bring it up?

 

For my part, I've been watching two CB Shimmer owners spend 3+ months struggling to produce a shiny since November. My one and only 2g Shimmer hasn't bred true for about the same amount of time. I've seen some really dismal results from lines that are bred to super commons like Balloons, Waterwalkers, and even Royal Crimsons.

 

Can people help me pull up more examples?

[cyradis4]

There was a post in the old thread that really solidified the matter for me, one listing the really dismal amount of 2g Prizes compared to CBs. Can someone bring it up?

 

For my part, I've been watching two CB Shimmer owners spend 3+ months struggling to produce a shiny since November. My one and only 2g Shimmer hasn't bred true for about the same amount of time. I've seen some really dismal results from lines that are bred to super commons like Balloons, Waterwalkers, and even Royal Crimsons.

 

Can people help me pull up more examples?

The best bet is to compile the statistics anew, by checking the progeny list of each CB Tinsels, and probably the 2nd gens as well.

 

It won't be complete, because some of the 2nd gens have been killed, and not all of the CBs are bred frequently.

 

I was the one who compiled the statistics for the CB Gold Tinsels, and it was somewhere from page 37, I think on page 38 or something. A page or two later, someone had compiled a few more stats. But the 2nd didn't break down what Tinsels produced what (it was just broken down by color). And neither really broke it down by time. So I think a spreadsheet, specifying what each tinsel has produced and the date each 2nd gen shiny was produced, is a good idea.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 5, 2014 by cyradis4

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The best bet is to compile the statistics anew, by checking the progeny list of each CB Tinsels, and probably the 2nd gens as well.

 

It won't be complete, because some of the 2nd gens have been killed, and not all of the CBs are bred frequently.

 

I was the one who compiled the statistics for the CB Gold Tinsels, and it was somewhere from page 37, I think on page 38 or something. A page or two later, someone had compiled a few more stats. But the 2nd didn't break down what Tinsels produced what (it was just broken down by color). And neither really broke it down by time. So I think a spreadsheet, specifying what each tinsel has produced and the date each 2nd gen shiny was produced, is a good idea.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Alright. I'm too lazy to check all of them, but I'll go check the original 5 Gold Tinsels...

[Hisa]

Well..mine ain't as bad but once I really started to try breed her...took 5 weeks..

No fails, "no egg was produced" on 6th week it bred a prize which I gave to Raphy.

I was more surprised of not even getting fails...

 

But then again..._Z_ has tried to breed me a pink egg for 5 weeks already..and no luck with that either.

 

I guess it's really out of luck luckiest catch offspring I own then...

[TJ09]

The numbers suggest otherwise. There have been more prize dragons bred in the past year (of both types, counted separately) than many breeds of commons.

[Millie_Azure]

Here's a handful of prize dragons and what percentage of their offspring are prizes as well. I'm listing the code for each dragon, not the name.

 

Ryko 30 prize/67 total = 45%

Wyms 39/102 = 38%

1337 18/60 = 30%

ERNA 16/37 = 43%

DMHP 20/60 = 30%

Huntr 10/34 = 29%

s5gF 26/62 = 42%

wish 26/87 = 30%

Epic 14/64 = 22%

uHmRr 15/42 = 36%

ANGel 8/17 = 47%

Satan 16/34 = 47%

Aht6 15/33 = 48%

Logic 20/43 = 47%

8j3FE 5/25 = 25%

Penk 29/42 = 60%

7AP36 15/42 = 36%

BhgzQ 9/24 = 38%

KARIS 5/5 = 100%

Shine 13/36 = 36%

7w1Yl 15/34 = 44%

Jewel 15/38 = 39%

Pern1 9/28 = 32%

 

No, this does not take into account the number of attempts with no egg, but when an egg is produced, the rates aren't bad. There's a few dismal ones (8j3FE, Epic, and Huntr) but the overall average for this sample is 37%. (Penk and KARIS were not included in this average. With them, the average is 41%.)

 

Personally, I think the rates are fine. These dragons are rare and valuable for a reason, and increasing the rate at which they breed will only decrease their value.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Millie_Azure

[Xythus]

I'm pretty sure what TJ means is that you'd have to give a GOOD reason for prizes to breed like rabbits.

 

As in NEED, NOT just I *WANT*. Not just "I want a prize, I want a low gen, I want trading fodder to get things I want."

 

It needs to be said again and again, only USERS put incredible value on the 2nd gens; to the cave, a 2nd gen is the same as a 15th gen.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Xythus

[cyradis4]

Alright. I'm too lazy to check all of them, but I'll go check the original 5 Gold Tinsels...

They also need to be broken down by time. I can setup a spreadsheet which can be filled in. Is there anything other, besides when each 2nd gen Tinsel was produced, that people think would be useful?

 

Edit:

The 2nd gen prizes control the trade market, choking out a lot of other high level trades because said 2nd gen prizes really just aren't available. Perhaps instead of a blanket increase, the ratios can be shifted in favor of the low gens, which are the least common.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 5, 2014 by cyradis4

[Naruhina_94]

The original 5 Gold Tinsels have produced....

Living in Sin: 24 shiny babies

Gold Epica: 13 shiny babies

Alexandria Aurelix: 10 shiny babies

Apollo: 26 shiny babies

AGYI: 20 shiny babies

 

those are the Shinies that have more time to breed. I suppose that Shimmer of 2011 should be checked?

 

I support this, it will be undeniably usefull, even if the fear of "maybe my shiny won't be so productive" could prevent winners from taking more request in any case.

 

This is a good solution, a standard solution I said: this is the minimum that must be done to improve the situation without changing things too much.

[FortyTwo]

Here's a handful of prize dragons and what percentage of their offspring are prizes as well. I'm listing the code for each dragon, not the name.

 

Ryko 30 prize/67 total = 45%

Wyms 39/102 = 38%

1337 18/60 = 30%

ERNA 16/37 = 43%

DMHP 20/60 = 30%

Huntr 10/34 = 29%

s5gF 26/62 = 42%

wish 26/87 = 30%

Epic 14/64 = 22%

 

This list is currently tinsel heavy.

 

Personally, I think the rates are fine. These dragons are rare and valuable for a reason, and increasing the rate at which they breed will only decrease their value.

This is not taking into account no eggs, refusals or no interests.

[cyradis4]

Here's a handful of prize dragons and what percentage of their offspring are prizes as well. I'm listing the code for each dragon, not the name.

 

Ryko 30 prize/67 total = 45%

Wyms 39/102 = 38%

1337 18/60 = 30%

ERNA 16/37 = 43%

DMHP 20/60 = 30%

Huntr 10/34 = 29%

s5gF 26/62 = 42%

wish 26/87 = 30%

Epic 14/64 = 22%

 

This list is currently tinsel heavy.

 

Personally, I think the rates are fine. These dragons are rare and valuable for a reason, and increasing the rate at which they breed will only decrease their value.

Nor is it taking into account the shifting ratios. Tinsels bred fairly well that first year, because it took a while to produce higher generations.

 

The 2nd year, and especially this past year, things have been bad for the CB Tinsel owners, from all I can see. Same applies to the CB Shimmers, for the first few months they bred much better than they have the last few months.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 5, 2014 by cyradis4

[Allspice]

The only Shimmer I breed consistently week after week has produced two Shimmers from thirteen eggs from September-February. The last two people on my list have been waiting since June and it was never a big list (only six people were allowed on at a time). I will never keep a list for Prizes (or any dragon, actually) again, I don't like making people wait so long. Anyways, that particular Shimmer is a 4th gen, just for reference.

 

I'd be in favor of Prizes breeding better, I might actually try to breed my lower gens if there was a better chance I'd get a Prize to gift. Or maybe abandon for someone to pick up, I picked up my 3rd gen Tinsel that way and it was a very nice surprise.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Allspice

[ZzelaBusya]

Personally, I think the rates are fine. These dragons are rare and valuable for a reason, and increasing the rate at which they breed will only decrease their value.

Isn't that one of the purposes of making them breed better, though? If Prizes are more productive, there will be more of them and their value will decrease - which seems very good to me when it comes to 2-3gens that currently cost a whole lot.

 

As nice as it feels to have something valuable to breed and trade for shinies, personally I would be quite happy to see the value of Prizes go down at one point, and I'm saying this as a person who has several 2nd gens to breed and trade for valuable dragons. That way we'll eventually get closer to what DC trading used to be like in that regard, when valuable mostly implied caveborn dragons of certain rare types, as well as results of breeding creativity, compared to trades currently circulating around low-gen stairstep Prizes, 2nd gen Prizes, maybe some even-gen Prizes and the like. With this suggestion being implemented, Prizes will have a lot less influence on the market, I think it would be great actually.

 

It seems a bit weird to me, when the market is regulated by dragons that are originally a result of sheer luck (well, if we don't count the first Tree contest). Given the current situation with raffles, bad breeding and the like, it's certainly understandable why it's happening and I'm not *complaining* about it. I would just like to see things become more balanced from that point of view one day. I really dislike the fact that limited dragons of that kind regulate the market to that extent, to me it doesn't feel too "DC" if I can say so.

 

CB Prizes will stay special no matter what even if they give a 2nd gen every day (not suggesting THAT, just saying) because they are only available to a very limited group of users, unless we release them in-cave or something, but it's a different suggestion. I see nothing wrong in making 2nd gens+ more common and more easily obtainable by others.

 

TL;DR - Support.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Breeding from Feb. 13th, 2011 - Feb 5th, 2014 (~3 years)

 

(AGYI) 21 Gold Tinsels - Last Tinsel produced Jan 19, 2014 (~0 Months)*

(EPIC) 14 Gold Tinsels - Last Tinsel produced Jan 28, 2014 (~0 Months)**

(iWin) 24 Gold Tinsels - Last Tinsel produced Mar 23, 2013 (10 Months)

(Lexy) 10 Gold Tinsels - Last Tinsel produced Jul 15, 2012 (1 Year, 6 Months)

(s5gF) 26 Gold Tinsels - Last Tinsel produced Jan 02, 2014 (~1 Month)***

 

*Second most recent bred Sep 30, 2013 (4 Months)

**Second most recent bred Aug 14, 2013 (5 Months)

***Second most recent bred Aug 26, 2013 (5 Months)

 

Average = 6.3 Tinsels / Year

Average = 6.8 Months since last Tinsel breeding

Average = 8.4 Months since last Tinsel breeding (breedings within 1 month of today disregarded)

 

@TJ: I think commons might be experiencing the same issue, though, to a lesser extent. New commons are almost impossible to breed anything from other than other super commons, and things that I used to always get when breeding to my metals - Whites, Sunsongs, and Harvests - aren't appearing as often. Plus, numbers produced isn't necessarily a measure of productivity, is it? If everyone's collecting and breeding Prizes, even if they only get an egg every three months, there might be lots more of them bred than of commons, which usually don't get bred. That still doesn't mean Prizes are breeding well, though... ;___;

 

@Xythus: Giving people a Prize that doesn't do much more than sit on their scroll and glitter isn't much of a Prize, IMO. Also, since the starting amount is so limited--unlike with regular Metals--higher breeding rates than normal are really a necessity to spread out low gens. Even if the cave doesn't care about 2gs versus 10gs, many players do, and that's something to not be ignored.

 

@Evil: The game is about hoarding dragons, so your solution isn't, well, much of a solution. ;;

[PointOfOrigin]

Curious: did anyone try to compare breeding success according to the gen of the dragon? As in, taking one line and then seeing how many shinies that line produces per generation. I always heard that lower the gen, the harder it is to a true breeding out of them.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Curious: did anyone try to compare breeding success according to the gen of the dragon? As in, taking one line and then seeing how many shinies that line produces per generation. I always heard that lower the gen, the harder it is to a true breeding out of them.

While I can't say for sure, I think it might have something to do with how often low gens are bred versus how often high gens are bred. TJ confirmed somewhere that dragons that aren't bred every week have a higher chance of breeding. Since Prizes above 5g have little to no market value any more, people have mostly stopped breeding them, while low gens are bred just about every chance one can get. So when higher gens do get bred they have, in theory, a better shot at producing eggs.

[Naruhina_94]

Curious: did anyone try to compare breeding success according to the gen of the dragon? As in, taking one line and then seeing how many shinies that line produces per generation. I always heard that lower the gen, the harder it is to a true breeding out of them.

It depends even by the owner decision. If I make 30 x 2nd gen gold shimmer x Golden Wyvern a 2nd gen from that line will value less than another one where there are only 2-3 2nd gen of that shimmer x another mate.

This: http://dragcave.net/lineage/SslEr is more common than http://dragcave.net/view/fiqVi

 

Same father, different brothers. There are few low gen even because if owners do too much of the same type their value decrease.

More descendents has a CB shiny more people can have a shiny, more breed could be done.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[ShorahNagi]

Curious: did anyone try to compare breeding success according to the gen of the dragon? As in, taking one line and then seeing how many shinies that line produces per generation. I always heard that lower the gen, the harder it is to a true breeding out of them.

A quick check of one of my Prize Dragons:

 

*I am only counting the ones who were bred to the same mate - a horse, not total

 

7th Generation (mine) - 3

6th - 4

5th - 3

4th -2

3rd - 14

2nd - 10 (possibly 11 as one's a Vampire)

1st - 8 (12 in total from non-horse parents)

 

So in this case - it seems breeding got WORSE as the generations rolled on

 

*though this is only on offspring showed - this does not count the possibilities of dead and/or deleted dragons, nor does it take into account no eggs and/or how often said dragon is bred*

[angelicdragonpuppy]

A quick check of one of my Prize Dragons:

 

*I am only counting the ones who were bred to the same mate - a horse, not total

 

7th Generation (mine) - 3

6th - 4

5th - 3

4th -2

3rd - 14

2nd - 10 (possibly 11 as one's a Vampire)

1st - 8 (12 in total from non-horse parents)

 

So in this case - it seems breeding got WORSE as the generations rolled on

 

*though this is only on offspring showed - this does not count the possibilities of dead and/or deleted dragons, nor does it take into account no eggs and/or how often said dragon is bred*

Is it really because breeding got worse, or because people didn't bother breeding the higher gen ones...?

 

Also - of necessity - the lower gen ones must have existed before the higher gen ones. So time needs to be taken into consideration as well.

Edited February 5, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[cyradis4]

Is it really because breeding got worse, or because people didn't bother breeding the higher gen ones...?

No way to know for sure, but I suspect its because they stopped breeding the higher gen ones.

 

We know, because MissK and Lorimmel have stated it (MissK in this thread, lorimmel in the other) that they've been breeding their CBs very regularly.

 

I don't know about the others, I don't remember if they posted.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 5, 2014 by cyradis4

[PointOfOrigin]

Is it really because breeding got worse, or because people didn't bother breeding the higher gen ones...?

 

Also - of necessity - the lower gen ones must have existed before the higher gen ones. So time needs to be taken into consideration as well.

Maybe we should change ShorahNagi's numbers into percentages. I guess we'd get a much better estimate.