Improve Prize Breeding Ratios

[AnanoKimi]

So it would kind of work much like before the holiday limits were lifted? You could keep in trade link for 24 hours?

24 hours works too. Yeah basically. I edited with the egg at 3 Days 23 Hours because well thats 4 days someone has to find a suitable person to gift it too.

[lilacamy931]

Ah gotcha! I think having a stricter time limit if this idea was to be implemented would be the way to go (like the 24 hours on holiday dragons in the past though only used as example).

 

The reason behind it being it might help limit hoarding/gaining the high trade values on a multi clutch of 4 for example over several days. As the intention behind this is to spread the wealth but more importantly the lineages in some cases I think this might help, especially those that would not want to lose control of their dragons (prizes or not).

 

I find it so hard to predict these things and don't remember the issues with the multi clutches before..

[AnanoKimi]

Sounds good. A 24hr limit within a transfer so that those who do breed any dragons that successfully multiclutch can decide whether to abandon or gift. They would go to transfer only too, no trades. just in case.

[cyradis4]

Sounds good. A 24hr limit within a transfer so that those who do breed any dragons that successfully multiclutch can decide whether to abandon or gift. They would go to transfer only too, no trades. just in case.

I suggest you take that to the multi-clutching prize thread.... You'll likely get a lot more comments on it there. It really is off-topic for this thread.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[AnanoKimi]

Will do :3 Sorry about that. All this talk about improving breeding kinda occasionally leads to that topic as well. This multi clutching idea mixed with improved ratios will do wonders for spreading the love and joy that is 2nd gen prizes!

Edited February 24, 2014 by AnanoKimi

[CNR4806]

Sounds good. A 24hr limit within a transfer so that those who do breed any dragons that successfully multiclutch can decide whether to abandon or gift. They would go to transfer only too, no trades. just in case.

It's literally one online friend away from maintaining control of all clutch eggs.

[AnanoKimi]

It's literally one online friend away from maintaining control of all clutch eggs.

I moved the idea over to the multiclutch thread if you wanna post about it there .w.

[Starscream]

Then you'd miss out on gifting, lineage making, and trading while other people get those ratio spots.

 

Seriously, multiclutch used to be the standard, I don't see what reason there is to get in such a pickle over it (although I still think rare multiclutch for all dragons would work best, or a scroll wide multiclutch BSA).

 

I guess I can sort of see a reason to object if prizes are singled out exclusively but with the other two there should be zero cause to complain.

I rarely lineage make. I can gift other things So I'd not be missing much. I collect - specifically I hoard.

 

As for Multiclutch, I hated it. I hated breeding any of my special favourites because they could shoot out multiple eggs. I do not mind it at holidays and I tend to breed my stuff reasonably freely expecting it to go out, however there are 1 or 2 of my special favourites I refuse to breed on their season because of the multiclutch. - Special attachment. I'd probably breed the dragons I don't have particular love for such as my inbred or messy lineages old pinks and frills.

 

When it comes to Gifting I like to gift on my terms and my terms only. I do not gift because people expect it or even demand it. I often take note of what people are looking for, because I am not particularly crazy about lineages, I can spend some time in the AP searching for things these people want. I am very generous to my friends and to randoms who do not expect it.

 

I know for a fact many people would ignore the DO NOT PM messages people try to place on there profiles, signatures and scrolls. I have had people say to me "I read your scroll warning but... could you breed me....." my answer will always be no.

 

It's not that I do not want people to have "luck" getting low gens, but when it comes to my dragons and my scroll I have the final say of who and what I breed and for whom. I dislike people thinking they are entitled to my low gens. No one is entitled to anything I make, and some people will find this a truly hard thing to swallow. Some people may think I am harsh, but I am very strict in real life and I am just as strict in game. As I said before I do have a set of scroll rules, I also "practice what I preach"

 

I also, for the record, do not subscribe to "everyone wins" concept that has become popular during the 1990's. I would consider what most people are asking of low gen or prize winners to be akin so expecting a person who won 350 million to give half a million to everyone that asks because "share the wealth". I will share the wealth to whom I feel deserves it, not to those who demand it.

 

TJ has also stated fairly clearly that prize dragons have been more successfully breeding than commons. People think its unfair if I would cease breeding my dragons if we multiclutched? I think its unfair to be forced to provide for everyone.

 

 

 

[AnanoKimi]

I rarely lineage make. I can gift other things So I'd not be missing much. I collect - specifically I hoard.

 

As for Multiclutch, I hated it. I hated breeding any of my special favourites because they could shoot out multiple eggs. I do not mind it at holidays and I tend to breed my stuff reasonably freely expecting it to go out, however there are 1 or 2 of my special favourites I refuse to breed on their season because of the multiclutch. - Special attachment. I'd probably breed the dragons I don't have particular love for such as my inbred or messy lineages old pinks and frills.

 

When it comes to Gifting I like to gift on my terms and my terms only. I do not gift because people expect it or even demand it. I often take note of what people are looking for, because I am not particularly crazy about lineages, I can spend some time in the AP searching for things these people want. I am very generous to my friends and to randoms who do not expect it.

 

I know for a fact many people would ignore the DO NOT PM messages people try to place on there profiles, signatures and scrolls. I have had people say to me "I read your scroll warning but... could you breed me....." my answer will always be no.

 

It's not that I do not want people to have "luck" getting low gens, but when it comes to my dragons and my scroll I have the final say of who and what I breed and for whom. I dislike people thinking they are entitled to my low gens. No one is entitled to anything I make, and some people will find this a truly hard thing to swallow. Some people may think I am harsh, but I am very strict in real life and I am just as strict in game. As I said before I do have a set of scroll rules, I also "practice what I preach"

 

I also, for the record, do not subscribe to "everyone wins" concept that has become popular during the 1990's. I would consider what most people are asking of low gen or prize winners to be akin so expecting a person who won 350 million to give half a million to everyone that asks because "share the wealth". I will share the wealth to whom I feel deserves it, not to those who demand it.

 

TJ has also stated fairly clearly that prize dragons have been more successfully breeding than commons. People think its unfair if I would cease breeding my dragons if we multiclutched? I think its unfair to be forced to provide for everyone.

Reading this I respect what you say and understand it completely. Too many people seem entitled to what they want and throw fits if not obtained for free if not at low cost. This has been my main issue with trying to keep prize dragons as prizes. Everyone feels that because they are bored collecting and want to make lineages that we HAVE to make Prizes be released into the cave because they want babies bred specifically how they want and if they cannot get it then its not fair.

 

I can understand the frustration because there have been many things many people have wanted in specific ways but as I have very readily learned over the time I have lived, We do not always get what we want, how we want it, and when we want it. Sometimes we really do need to learn to suck it up and deal.

 

Many don't and so long as they do not continue to try and force to make current prizes cave available, I am willing to work with that.

 

Now about the multicltching, The Multiclutching for Prize Dragons Thread has been devising a medium (my self included) on how to allow for those who want multi clutching to happen and for those who don't to opt out. Your opinion there would be much appreciated because from someone of your stand point we can really try and work the idea so people like your self don't feel like multiclutching is something that is forced upon everyone.

[Starscream]

I will have a gander at that thread later, I'm in the middle of a few things right now. However I am glad you understand where I am coming from. Thank you.

[whitebaron]

I stil lthink ratios do not work at all, and thus this suggestion is a little bit off.

Shimmers as a whole do breed very well, a lot better than all the other metallics I've got. Breeding a Gold x Silver Checker, is like trying to hit a bullet with a smaller bullet, whilst wearing a blindfold, riding a horse.

Beeding Shimmer x Shimmer gives results like these:

http://dragcave.net/progeny/P1Jp2

Thus far, it has only failed me 4 times in half a year. I can actually be pretty sure to breed a few scrolls full of prizes every week if i set my mind to it. (and no, i dont have that many...)

 

I actually stopped breeding many of my prizes because they basically breed too well. There's no use for 5g-7g stair shimmers, no people really wanting them in trades, because they are all over the place.

[Syphoneira]

With regard to various comments read, I'd just like to say that, as someone who was gifted a 2nd gen and several 3rd gens by outstandingly wonderful people, I would love it if my 2nd gen spat out 3 prize eggs every freaking time she was bred, so that 2 lucky AP hunters got 3rd gens, and if my 3rd gens spat out 2 Prize eggs every time, with a decent 4th-gen surprise for somebody, in the form of random sharing.

 

And I'll bet that the number of people who would be thrilled at the idea of being able to share their good fortune/the kindness of their own gifters with the community in this way far outnumber those who dread it and who would prefer to quit breeding entirely rather than risk somebody they personally didn't select getting a Prize egg from their dragons, although it is, of course, their dragon, their choice as to whether to breed or not, and in reality, even with vastly improved breeding and multi-clutches, the odds are that the numbers of multiple-clutched Prizes hitting the AP would not occur enough to make much difference in actual catches among however many thousands of members, although at least adding to the lower-gen breeding pool.

 

 

But without significantly improved breeding rates where it matters, in what's becoming the only really useful gens, the top 3, nothing can make much difference in the current issue and those stemming from it.

[whitebaron]

But without significantly improved breeding rates where it matters, in what's becoming the only really useful gens, the top 3, nothing can make much difference in the current issue and those stemming from it.

As the game currently only acknowledges breed, not gen, as parameter for ratios, any change made would be almost invisible.

 

Also, there ARE people who want the fails, too.

[Syphoneira]

As the game currently only acknowledges breed, not gen, as parameter for ratios, any change made would be almost invisible.

 

Also, there ARE people who want the fails, too.

 

 

Very true, whitebaron, it would require specific programming in order to affect the top 3 gens only in this manner, but I do believe (somebody correct me if I'm mistaken?) that I saw a comment by TJ regarding this, and suggesting that this was an interesting idea, or something to that effect.

 

Also, significant increases in Prize reproduction would still wind up with many fails, lol; I was just saying that I'd personally love it if my few low-gens did produce a postulated maximum number of Prize eggs every time, to toss extras into the AP, rather than almost none.

[whitebaron]

 

Very true, whitebaron, it would require specific programming in order to affect the top 3 gens only in this manner, but I do believe (somebody correct me if I'm mistaken?) that I saw a comment by TJ regarding this, and suggesting that this was an interesting idea, or something to that effect.

 

Also, significant increases in Prize reproduction would still wind up with many fails, lol; I was just saying that I'd personally love it if my few low-gens did produce a postulated maximum number of Prize eggs every time, to toss extras into the AP, rather than almost none.

Yes, TJ said that it is an interesting concept. However, in no way did he say that he endorses it OR even considers it. Its more like: "never thought of that."

 

That aside, prizes do breed well. I can give you plenty and plenty of examples, just take this one for now: http://dragcave.net/progeny/GzgiJ

 

Its not their general fertility/ratio that's the problem, its just that currently most of the breeding gets eaten up by breeding somethings like those:

http://dragcave.net/lineage/nbGgM

 

Even if CB prizes end up multiclutching and improved ratios, there will be a lot more messies around to breed. I have over 60 shimmers, thats half as much as there are CBs. and I stopped collecting higher gens in june. So go figure how many people who really do want more will have by now...

[Syphoneira]

Yes, TJ said that it is an interesting concept. However, in no way did he say that he endorses it OR even considers it. Its more like: "never thought of that."

 

That aside, prizes do breed well. I can give you plenty and plenty of examples, just take this one for now: http://dragcave.net/progeny/GzgiJ

 

Its not their general fertility/ratio that's the problem, its just that currently most of the breeding gets eaten up by breeding somethings like those:

http://dragcave.net/lineage/nbGgM

 

Even if CB prizes end up multiclutching and improved ratios, there will be a lot more messies around to breed. I have over 60 shimmers, thats half as much as there are CBs. and I stopped collecting higher gens in june. So go figure how many people who really do want more will have by now...

 

 

 

 

Perhaps I interpreted TJ's comment wrongly, that wouldn't be a first, lol.

 

 

Very true, indeed, that many breedings are as per your example.

 

The problem entails not only the major one of there being so very, very many more long gens but also that longer lineages really seem to breed progressively better, at least on my scroll; my shorter gens typically kinda suck - rather than lay - Prize eggs, as can be seen on their baby pages, if you look at 5th and 6th gens once commonly bred (but any of the 6th gens rarely for quite some time,) as opposed to the shorter ones.

 

If we had a lot of CBs in the breeding pool, it mightn't be quite such a biggie as it is, but we don't, if you'll pardon the understatement.

 

It's too bad that we can't produce more nice ones to give people something decent to breed...

 

But this is another reason why it only makes sense to have the special CB Prizes magically transported onto people's scrolls given the special ability to produce up to 4 eggs, with the magic somewhat reducing each gen, so that 2nd gens could produce up to 3 eggs, and 3rd gens two, but with the magical ability petering out completely at that point, so we aren't flooded with AP uglies again.

[Red2111]

i dont support.

 

i recall the 2011 drought, imo shimmers and tinsels are breeding fine over all.

 

after the drought ended i created an excel doc to help keep track of my own prize line production to kinda help give me a clue when production over all is decreasing. (though i stopped cause RL got hectic with the wedding, i plan to start backup)

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key...VVE&usp=sharing

 

 

anyone who wants to keep tabs on their own prize lines is more than welcoem to copy my template and alter it to their own needs. i focused mainly on how many shinies i got and from what type (gold, silver or bronze), so i didn't discriminate on the generation and only focused on when i got shinies; nor did i always breed the same amount each week (though i mass bred every line once a month.

 

you can always edit the chart to include whatever info you want. (ie: 1 chart per dragon, or 1 chart per type, ect)

 

 

edit -

 

my point is, as others have said, the problem with breeding isnt the dragons themselves. its the amount of dragons in the pool breeding and the mates their being bred to.

 

also, i seem to recal many moons ago TJ mentioing that if you breed a dragon less often, your chance of getting a baby increases (dunno if this implies any baby or specific baby)

 

 

the main problem with the low gens (and CB) versus the higher gens, is that they're all in the same breeding ratios. the more lines you have out there, the more shinies you have breeding, and the more spread out the breeding ratio gets becuase the cap on shiny production gets hit faster.

 

the problem is economics, and us breeding them too much, not the dragons or the ratios.

 

for example:

 

lets say the breeding ratio for Gold Tinsels (GT) is at 10 tinsel eggs per month.

 

Week 1 - you have 1 CB GT and produces 2a GT egg. (breeding ratio = 2/10 GT)

 

Week 2 - CB produces 2b , 2a produces 3a (breeding ratio = 4/10 GT)

 

Week 3 - CB produces 2c, 2a produces 3b, 2b produces 3c, 3a produces 4a (breeding ratio = 8/10 GT)

 

Week 4 - CB produces 2d, 2a produces 3d breeding ratio is capped as 10 GT's now exist. the remaining lines produce kin or nadda.

 

Month 2 - breeding ratio is reset to 0/10

 

week 1 - if all existing lines are bred, the breeding ratio is hit in the first week resulting in kin for the next 3 weeks.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Red2111

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't see that that proves anything, really. What people want (generic; I have no axe to grind either way) is more lower gen ones - and they do seem to be doing badly - probably because so many owners of high gens breed them constantly. (yes, ma'am, guilty as sin I am !)

 

So skewing better breeding rates towards lower gens - or introducing multiclutching - would seem to help.

[Red2111]

oh i'm just as guilty as anyone else in breeding prize lines. outside of collecting nw releases that pretty much all i breed now, for swaps or trades and mostly for lines and combos i dont have.

 

 

but my problem with the above two options are

 

 

skewing the ratios -

 

1. inhibits player ability as your punishing those of us with longer gens who breed them and forcing people to play a certain way (ie: only breed shorter gens)

 

2. making the problem with hostage marketing that lower gen owners have even worse; as theirs are the only ones producing and the only ones trading. (and i hear a lot of bitter complaints about the way the market is on this game, though i personally dont agree with it. i just dont want to hear any more of the "rich are getting richer" whining and this will cause it, because only the "rich' lines will be breeding)

 

 

 

multi-clutching

 

1. will just fill up the breeding ratio faster because you're introducing more supply into a capped production market (see above post)

 

2. impedes on how people play the game, unless the person is allowed to keep all of the eggs they clutch to pick how the eggs get distributed.

 

sorry but if i was a prize winner and i bred a 2G baby, i'd want to know that dragon was goignt o someone who could take care of it and would cherish it, not off to the AP where someone would kill it or bite it or negliect it. and prize winners have a right to decide who gets one of their CB's direct offspring.

[Guillotine]

I'm not seeing how a Prize owner is any more entitled to controlling where their entire clutch goes than any other owner of a dragon that multiclutches (Holly owners certainly don't get to control where any extra Holly eggs go, and their low-gens are very desireable). I mean, most of the time you're going to get the other dragon (unless it's a rare, then you're not getting anything 90% of the time), if you multiclutch at all. Buuut that's a discussion for the thread made specifically for multiclutching.

 

Anyway, I think needing to bring ratios into it just shows how poorly the current system for determining eggs (cave-generated and bred alike) works. Converting it to a flat percentage rate would probably increase how many Prizes are produced at all levels without needing people to stop breeding their high-gens entirely, which is what the current system requires.

[Red2111]

I'm not seeing how a Prize owner is any more entitled to controlling where their entire clutch goes than any other owner of a dragon that multiclutches (Holly owners certainly don't get to control where any extra Holly eggs go, and their low-gens are very desireable). I mean, most of the time you're going to get the other dragon (unless it's a rare, then you're not getting anything 90% of the time), if you multiclutch at all. Buuut that's a discussion for the thread made specifically for multiclutching.

 

Anyway, I think needing to bring ratios into it just shows how poorly the current system for determining eggs (cave-generated and bred alike) works. Converting it to a flat percentage rate would probably increase how many Prizes are produced at all levels without needing people to stop breeding their high-gens entirely, which is what the current system requires.

one thing about multi-clutches is that currently they only happen with Holiday dragons during the holiday season and the only dragon you get with the multi-clutch is the Holiday dragon.

 

even when you breed Marrow x Shadow Walker during Holloween, i've only ever seen the clutch be all the same type (ie: all Marrows or All Shadow Walkers)

 

theres no reason why multi-clutchign for prize dragons would be any different imo (ie: if theres a multi clutch it all being the same type)

 

also, before with the Holidays we had limits (ecluding Halloween) so theres a an in game reason why a user couldn't keep all the eggs their CB Holly clutched. I've never understood why, during Halloween where their were no limits, if i have the egg slots i shouldn't be able to keep all the babies my dragon produces (others have made this arguement btw)

 

imo, with limits gone for all previous holidays, theres no reason a user can't keep all eggs in a multi clutch if they have the egg space for them.

 

 

reguardless, prizes are different in that they exist outside of the Cave. 2G Hollies may trade at near enough a 1 to 1 value with 2G Prize (or they used to) but Hollies did exist in cave and everyone who was playing had a chance to get one.

 

Prizes are won, given out via chance and not everyone will get one. they only exist outside of winners scrolls because winners have choosen to breed them at all. that is where the entilitement comes from and rightly so.

 

 

re-set %

 

i dunno. i agree that a system that encourages higher gens not to be bred is faulty (theres peopel who can only get higher gens or messy inbreds for instance) but i think % based ratio still allows for that problem because these dragons are supposed to be rare.

 

btw the bred egg problem was fixed with TJ divorcing the cave and breeding ratio. (ie: no amount of CB mint hoarding will make him more or less likely to produce a tinsel, only thing that effect it is if a lot of people breed mints at one time, and then cause a massive wal of mint eggs in the AP )

 

so the only fix i can see staggering or teering the breeding ratio for prize babies.

 

setting tinsels and shimmers to seperate ratios and having 2 categories (CB - 5G and 6G - everything else) (ie: this line would fall in the 6G breeding ratio, even though its technically a "3G Shimmer" )

 

 

i draw the line at 6G because in my experience you can still trade some 5G lines on the open market (outside of direct swaps), but anything higher than that doesn't even gor for CB common hatchies that are incu-hatchable from the AP

Edited March 4, 2014 by Red2111

[Ha-Ki]

skewing the ratios -

 

1. inhibits player ability as your punishing those of us with longer gens who breed them and forcing people to play a certain way (ie: only breed shorter gens)

 

2. making the problem with hostage marketing that lower gen owners have even worse; as theirs are the only ones producing and the only ones trading.  (and i hear a lot of bitter complaints about the way the market is on this game, though i personally dont agree with it.  i just dont want to hear any more of the "rich are getting richer" whining and this will cause it, because only the "rich' lines will be breeding)

^ This.

 

DC never told you how to play the game, the value of low-gens is user-made, it's not a part of the game. Nor should it become, in my opinion.

 

If you want lower gens to breed better, stop breeding the less desirable higher gens. Start hoarding the commons you use as mates and make other people do the same. Prize dragons are exclusive enough, I don't see why low-gen prize dragons should become even more special and exclusive by breeding better than the higher gen ones. I don't support this.

[Shadowdrake]

even when you breed Marrow x Shadow Walker during Holloween, i've only ever seen the clutch be all the same type (ie: all Marrows or All Shadow Walkers)

Just a note: TJ recently changed this so that holiday x holiday pairings are able to produce mixed clutches of both types of eggs if the holidays are both in season. (see these. Both dragons were part of the same clutch).

 

 

Multiclutches have never allowed us to pick more than one egg, not even the old ones that were non-holiday and ended up disabled. The reason it's still like that for holidays is probably to spread the eggs around for others. And there are a lot of non-forum goers who will likely never even see a low-gen prize egg due to their sheer rareness and the lack of an incave trading center.

 

I don't think multiclutch for prizes will get off the ground very well without ratio changing somewhere at least.

[AnanoKimi]

Personally. If breeding ratios are to be increased, they should be applied through all generations, not just the high generations. I breed high gens too (between 5gen-7/8gen) and if they began to breed poorly, it would be just as frustrating as breeding my CB tinsel. The point of improving the ratio of these dragons is so that they breed good all across the board. We cannot favor High gens just because DC users are trying to make them more popular.

 

On the multi clutch topic for a short second. I once thought of allowing Prize owners the ability to control at least 1 other egg from the clutch but rather than keeping it, having it immediately fall in a courtesy teleport, and transfer only teleport. Canceling the transfer would auto abandon the egg. This could be used to help those who have lists for gifting to give out multiple shiny babies at once. The problem many brought up would be that they could abuse that by sending itto a friend and having them trade back, among other reasons. So I am now one that firmly agrees that owners should only be allowed to keep one egg out of how ever many eggs comes from a multi clutch.

 

Back to breeding ratios. I feel like they should be increased to some degree because breeding them is a night mare. They produce no eggs or you only get tinsel/shimmer kin, and when you have people in mind you would like to give something shiny to you cant. I cannot say how much it should be raised because I do not know the percentage prizes have of breeding their own kind when bred to different dragons. But increasing it enough so we literally don't have to wait months to a year to exclaim "Finally!! A prize egg!!" would be very nice.

[Fuzzbucket]

Yes indeed. Only allow control over one egg - just like holidays. Keep one; breed again if you want one for a friend.

 

If you are worried about them dying - when they do, another slot is available in the ratios so it isn't that much of a disaster. But having them drop to the AP is the BEST way to get them to those without trade buddies/untold riches or popularity points and who genuinely want them.

Edited March 4, 2014 by fuzzbucket