Improve Prize Breeding Ratios

[Starscream]

since we are tossing out opinions here.

 

my opinion is, it is no one else's business but the owner of the dragon, for When to breed, What to breed it to, Who to breed it for and Why they want to breed it or not.

 

It is no one else's business when a person decides to change a name - for whatever reason they decide. If it "messes" up a lineage's appearance, then that's the way the ball rolls.

 

I am seeing too much problems from users who seem to think they are entitled to offspring of these prized dragons. The reality is, none of us have the right to any of the offspring. If people are making lineages that require offspring from second gens in a specific pattern, that is not the problem of the owner of the CB. They can say, "sorry, I am just not breeding my CB to whip tails."

 

I consider my progeny to be as important to me in appearance as many would consider a lineage. And certain breeds I dislike strongly and would not like it cluttering up my pretty progeny. The breed I have refused requests of for my Alt Sweetling are Pillows. I usually would breed it to black, red or pink dragons. I have frequently said NO to breedings of my alt sweetling as well, but there are times when I feel, this person seems really sweet, I'll surprise them with what they need - usually it coincides with my choice mates. I enjoy gifting - I do not enjoy it when people start demanding they have their choice of mates as if my scroll is totally their playground.

 

There are many dragons on my scroll, that have names of significance to me. I do not want these lines to be given out to others because I would not want to see them "used wrong" for lack of a better word.

 

As for my holidays, I will breed them during their season to a mate I can accept being out and about. my favourite holidays are mated to my favourite metals.

 

So the TLDR version: My opinion: No one has the right to insist that a prize winner distributes the offspring to anyone at all. Through breed ratios - maybe they want kins - or multiclutches. No one has this right at all.

 

 

[cyradis4]

So the TLDR version: My opinion: No one has the right to insist that a prize winner distributes the offspring to anyone at all. Through breed ratios -  maybe they want kins - or multiclutches.  No one has this right at all.

Who the devil is "insisting"? No one, that's who.

 

Human nature is human nature. Some will trade, some will gift, some will keep all offspring. Some will breed to some breeds, some won't. Statistics are statistics. You will get some prize owners who breed their prizes to just two dragons (Mysfytt, anyone?) and others who breed to every dragon (CommanderWymsy, anyone?). Some won't trade the offspring (Booo's owner, anyone?) and some will lotto the offspring (Absolute, anyone?). Some won't even breed their dragons! (KingP's owner, anyone?).

 

Some people will be willing to breed to any dragon. Some won't. Who cares if a specific breeder won't breed to a particular breed? Or refuses to distribute the offspring? Chances are, there are several out there who WILL breed to said breed, IF you can find them, and IF they have an open list.

 

The idea is to get ALL CB prizes breeding better, which increases the chance that *someone*, some-where, some-when, will be willing to breed a particular lineage.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 6, 2014 by cyradis4

[Millie_Azure]

All I'm getting from reading where this is going is, "It's too hard to make pretty lineages!" Since when has 'too hard' been a valid reason for TJ to change anything on this site? I don't know about anyone else, but I sure can't remember one. Prize dragons are classed as "rare" for a reason, and even as a rare dragon, they're breeding true 37% of the time they produce an egg. That's a one in three chance. It's already not far off from the one in two chance the OP suggested. If it does get changed, one of two things are going to happen:

 

1. "I thought the rates got changed? Why am I still not getting any 2G prizes?!" And cue the angry mob about how the code is broken.

 

2. "YAY! I can trade for whatever I want now!!" Six months later... "What do you mean everyone has 2Gs and they're completely worthless now?! What sort of a prize is this if I can't use it?" And cue the angry mob about how the prizes aren't prizey enough.

 

Let's face it, regardless of what of happens, not everyone is going to be happy about how this works. There's nothing wrong with the rates, and a couple of prize winners have even posted in here saying they felt their CB prizes were producing 2Gs just fine. Why change what isn't broken just for the sake of "pretty lineages" being "easier" to aqcuire? Nothing worth having should ever be easy to get.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Millie_Azure

[cyradis4]

All I'm getting from reading where this is going is, "It's too hard to make pretty lineages!" Since when has 'too hard' been a valid reason for TJ to change anything on this site? I don't know about anyone else, but I sure can't remember one. Prize dragons are classed as "rare" for a reason, and even as a rare dragon, they're breeding true 37% of the time they produce an egg. That's a one in three chance. It's already not far off from the one in two chance the OP suggested. If it does get changed, one of two things are going to happen:

 

1. I thought the rates got changed? Why am I still not getting any 2G prizes?! And cue the angry mob about how the code is broken.

 

2. YAY! I can trade for whatever I want now!! *six months later* What do you mean everyone has 2Gs and they're completely worthless now?! What sort of a prize is this if I can't use it? And cue the angry mob about how the prizes are prizey enough.

 

Let's face it, regardless of what of happens, not everyone is going to be happy about how this works. There's nothing wrong with the rates, and a couple of prize winners have even posted in here saying they felt their CB prizes were producing 2Gs just fine. Why change what isn't broken just for the sake of "pretty lineages" being "easier" to aqcuire? Nothing worth having should ever be easy to get.

Some prize winners feel that their prizes are producing poorly. At least two. And I think only CommanderWymsy posted that they thought their CB prize bred fine.

 

Its not that some are hard to breed. Its that a large number of them are flat impossible. Hard, I'll do happily (see the horse lineage? Very hard). But there are a lot of prize x horse fails out there, so its possible to do the lineage, with enough effort. But how can you do a lineage of, say, Silver Tinsel x Olives (personally, ick!), if no one has bred a 2nd gen of Silver Tinsel x Olive? And if they do, if they produce 60 2nd gen Olives and no 2nd gen Tinsels, then how can you get a Tinsel from that line? None have been produced!

 

There are now about 240 CB Prizes. There are at least 2,000 active users (what the "users online" shows during special events, I think the active users is actually more than double that). Of those, there are (or will / would have been), 20 CB Gold Tinsels, 20 CB Gold Shimmers, 40 CB Silver Tinsels, 40 CB Silver Shimmers, 60 CB Bronze Tinsels, and 60 CB Bronze Shimmers. Some are active, some aren't. Some are dead, some are in the wild, some are frozen, some have never been bred. Half haven't even grown up yet.

 

Even if half of the users who own a Gold Tinsel bred every single week for an entire year, and got a prize to no prize ratio of 1 to 4, that's still only 130 2nd gen Gold Tinsels. And there is no way that half of those owners of CB Golds actually breed ever single week, the number is probably far less (and half of that number hasn't even grown up yet!). So even with a 1 to 4 ratio.... That amounts to very few 2nd gens.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 6, 2014 by cyradis4

[Negru]

This is a good place to say why I slowly abandoned any interest in this game.

 

It is a game that is 99% based on luck. Yes, LUCK. Not on skill but on how lucky you are to see that rare gold or copper in the cave, how lucky you are to have a fast enough internet connection to grab it, how lucky you are to win a raffle, how lucky you are to actually summon a darn Guardian. The only thing that takes skill on this site is getting a Neglected on your own. But let's go back to prize dragons. The concept is good enough, since there really isn't much you can do with the dragons on this site other than breed them for fun or rare lineages. TJ made rare, hard to obtain dragons so that people have something else to look forward to. The problem is, the way this site is being used by the masses, the lineage of these rare dragons matters as well. And in order to obtain a certain valuable lineage you must have something in return to offer. What do second or third or fourth generation prize dragons generally go for? People ask for way too many CB golds, sometimes even Neglecteds are refused as offers (since what are you going to do with them once you have them, you cannot breed them!) or more often OTHER prize dragons of equivalent generation. Therefore we go back to LUCK. You must be LUCKY enough to have something to offer in return for a second, third or even fourth gen prize dragon.

I read though the complaints and the suggestions but I think if somehow there were more prizes being awarded each year, or more raffles, or better breeding odds, that would diminish from the initial value of the prize dragon and you would be back to square one: the need for a NEW super rare dragon to be released at which time, the same complaints will arise. MY solution is simple and constructive:

TJ, how about you make some dragons be obtained though real SKILL instead of relying on luck? The kind of dragon that screams: I am on the scroll of a player that may not be lucky, but has some really mad skills!

Edited February 6, 2014 by Negru

[MissK.]

Prize dragons are classed as "rare" for a reason, and even as a rare dragon, they're breeding true 37% of the time they produce an egg. That's a one in three chance.

I intended to stick to observing the discussion, but where did this come from?

I've bred my CB Tinsel every week since I got her 3 years ago. If we account for a few lost weeks in case of delays that's at least 150 attempts and I have 26 shinies to show for it. If I'm not mistaken that's 17.3%. Of course I've tried breeding to very common dragons, several fails are expected, but I've also gotten an impressive number of "no interest"/"no egg" along the way.

 

Whichever way we look at it, 2nd gen prizes are ridiculously rare. Honestly I'd prefer it if I got more of them just so they could be spread around a bit, right now it feels like there's a dragon on my scroll that most people would trade anything for, yet it's just a useless trophy if I'm unable to make a variety of pretty lineages with it.

[Millie_Azure]

Here's a handful of prize dragons and what percentage of their offspring are prizes as well. I'm listing the code for each dragon, not the name.

 

Ryko 30 prize/67 total = 45%

Wyms 39/102 = 38%

1337 18/60 = 30%

ERNA 16/37 = 43%

DMHP 20/60 = 30%

Huntr 10/34 = 29%

s5gF 26/62 = 42%

wish 26/87 = 30%

Epic 14/64 = 22%

uHmRr 15/42 = 36%

ANGel 8/17 = 47%

Satan 16/34 = 47%

Aht6 15/33 = 48%

Logic 20/43 = 47%

8j3FE 5/25 = 25%

Penk 29/42 = 60%

7AP36 15/42 = 36%

BhgzQ 9/24 = 38%

KARIS 5/5 = 100%

Shine 13/36 = 36%

7w1Yl 15/34 = 44%

Jewel 15/38 = 39%

Pern1 9/28 = 32%

 

No, this does not take into account the number of attempts with no egg, but when an egg is produced, the rates aren't bad. There's a few dismal ones (8j3FE, Epic, and Huntr) but the overall average for this sample is 37%. (Penk and KARIS were not included in this average. With them, the average is 41%.)

Yes, this is a small sample. I can continue counting and adding to it if you would truly like more solid, all-inclusive results. I'm snowed in and have all day.

[MissK.]

Millie_Azure, I think I just gave an example of how big a difference the no interest/no egg options can make. And cyradis4 has explained that even with those percentages the amount of 2nd gens is absolutely tiny. To be clear I'm not sure if this exact suggestion is the way to improve the situation, but I still believe something needs to be done.

[Millie_Azure]

Millie_Azure, I think I just gave an example of how big a difference the no interest/no egg options can make. And cyradis4 has explained that even with those percentages the amount of 2nd gens is absolutely tiny. To be clear I'm not sure if this exact suggestion is the way to improve the situation, but I still believe something needs to be done.

Yes, I realize there's a difference between the Prize Egg/Breed Attempts ratio and the Prize Egg/Successful Breeding ratio, but that goes back to what TJ was saying about the population of Prizes in general and how the algorithm doesn't account for specific generations and only the dragon species itself. People want shiny dragons, and the only way to increase the number of 2G prizes without throwing the ratios out of whack is to decrease the number of other generations. I don't logistically see that happening, because, as stated previously, you can't prevent the owners of those higher gens from breeding them.

 

Either way, it still just sounds like a bunch of people going "it's too hard." Well, I hate to say it, but if they were easy to get, they'd be worth about as much as a Flamingo or a Gold-horned Tangar.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Either way, it still just sounds like a bunch of people going "it's too hard." Well, I hate to say it, but if they were easy to get, they'd be worth about as much as a Flamingo or a Gold-horned Tangar.

The population of CBs is too incredibly small compared to the player base for that to ever happen, bar an incredible change in how the raffle works. Tinsels have been around three years and people still offer multiple CB Metals for 2nd gens and even 3rd gens. Heck, even the most gnarly inbred Tins in the AP get snatched within seconds.

 

They will never be common. But it would be nice if they were "rare" or even "really rare" as opposed to "insanely incomparably rare."

Edited February 6, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[MissK.]

Yes, I realize there's a difference between the Prize Egg/Breed Attempts ratio and the Prize Egg/Successful Breeding ratio, but that goes back to what TJ was saying about the population of Prizes in general and how the algorithm doesn't account for specific generations and only the dragon species itself. People want shiny dragons, and the only way to increase the number of 2G prizes without throwing the ratios out of whack is to decrease the number of other generations. I don't logistically see that happening, because, as stated previously, you can't prevent the owners of those higher gens from breeding them.

 

Either way, it still just sounds like a bunch of people going "it's too hard." Well, I hate to say it, but if they were easy to get, they'd be worth about as much as a Flamingo or a Gold-horned Tangar.

True, but TJ didn't say that different coding is out of the question.

 

Well, is it really that bad if 2nd gens aren't worth an insane amount of CB metals? Don't get me wrong, trading a few 2nd gens was my only way of getting the neglecteds I always wanted. But really there are so few prize owners compared to DC population already. There's no chance 2nd gens will ever catch up with demand, so at least maybe they shouldn't be impossible to get? The way things are now you either have to be able to make a stellar offer or you must be lucky enough to get on a list as soon as the winners are announced, because otherwise it will take years for the winners to clear their lists again. (Of course that refers only to the prize owners interested in trading/gifting, there's no doubt that everyone is entitled to do as they like with their own dragons.)

 

Edit: It seems I was ninja'd, so yeah, what angelicdragonpuppy said.

Edited February 6, 2014 by MissK.

[cyradis4]

Yes, I realize there's a difference between the Prize Egg/Breed Attempts ratio and the Prize Egg/Successful Breeding ratio, but that goes back to what TJ was saying about the population of Prizes in general and how the algorithm doesn't account for specific generations and only the dragon species itself. People want shiny dragons, and the only way to increase the number of 2G prizes without throwing the ratios out of whack is to decrease the number of other generations. I don't logistically see that happening, because, as stated previously, you can't prevent the owners of those higher gens from breeding them.

 

Either way, it still just sounds like a bunch of people going "it's too hard." Well, I hate to say it, but if they were easy to get, they'd be worth about as much as a Flamingo or a Gold-horned Tangar.

If there was any way to make a 2nd gen Prize worth as much as a CB Flamingo, I'd say do it! That would get rid of the elite the prizes have created, and also even out the trading market a lot. Sadly.... It can't happen. There simply are not enough CB Prizes to produce enough 2nd gens to actually glut the market, which is the only way to actually drive the price of 2nd gen Prizes down enough that they'd be worth a CB Flamingo (I say CB because to some people, Flamingos with certain lineages are worth a major ton). Even if every single CB Prize was forced to produce a 2nd gen every single week of their lives, there still wouldn't be enough CBs to glut the market for 2nd gen Prize dragons. There just aren't enough of them, and the ones that there are are split up into 6 distinct sprites.

 

And forcing people to breed their CB Prize dragons, and forcing all eggs to be Prizes, is something I and almost everyone else is dead set against.

 

As for the higher gens.... They already glut the market, so who cares if they do it even worst?

 

Nothing over 5th gen can even be posted in the "Rare Trading Center", and that's because they are considered Common. Frankly, a full time higher gen prize probably is worth about as much as a Flamingo from the AP right now. Actually, I'd accept a short time Flamingo egg long before I'd accept a high time high gen Prize egg. As for a high time Flamingo vs a high time, high gen stairstep prize, I'd accept neither. Neither is worth their egg slot for 2 days, at least to me. So again... who cares? The higher gen market is already glutted except for special cases.

 

By my count, there are over 95 different dragon breeds that CB Prizes can be bred to, and more are going to be added most months, sometimes more than one. The first 5 CB Gold Tinsels have produced about 95 2nd gen Gold Tinsels in their entire life time, which is three years. Between all 5 of them.

 

Simply put: Even if every single CB Prize bred a 2nd gen Prize every single week, it would take about 2 years to produce an egg from each species of dragon. If a CB Prize bred a 2nd gen Prize once every 4th breeding, it would take 7.5 years (give or take), for one CB Prize to produce a 2nd gen Prize from every single breed (that's assuming no new breeds were added).

 

"Hard" is relative. If no one can produce the 2nd gen needed for a particular lineage, then its not "hard", its impossible. And if your average person can't attract a trade for a 2nd gen prize (even offering multiple CB Golds and Silvers, check the trades there are a ton of them doing that), then.... Again. The lineage that is desired is impossible, because the key element can't be gotten.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[TJ09]

Don't get me wrong--there are plenty of other things to keep me entertained on DC, and by and large I do work with more obtainable and equally pretty things. But I still find DC's increasing exclusivity (Discontinueds, past CB Holidays, Snow Angel colors, and now Prizes) to be a bad sign. I play collecting games like this and Pokemon because with enough work and effort you really can get just about everything.

Pokemon did this in 1996.

 

Got Pokemon Blue? Guess you don't get Scyther very easily. Don't live close enough to a Nintendo event? No Mew/Celebi/etc for you. Pick Pokemon X? Good luck getting a Yveltal (and I don't just mean trading back and forth to get the Pokedex entry).

 

But right now it's easier (and relies less on the willingness of others) to get the rarest Pokemon than it is to get your average 2nd gen Prize.

You're comparing apples to oranges here--putting modifiers on one but not the other. "Right now it's easier to get a gold egg than it is to get a shiny Bidoof. Clearly Pokemon is too hard."

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Pokemon did this in 1996.

 

Got Pokemon Blue? Guess you don't get Scyther very easily. Don't live close enough to a Nintendo event? No Mew/Celebi/etc for you. Pick Pokemon X? Good luck getting a Yveltal (and I don't just mean trading back and forth to get the Pokedex entry).

 

 

You're comparing apples to oranges here--putting modifiers on one but not the other. "Right now it's easier to get a gold egg than it is to get a shiny Bidoof. Clearly Pokemon is too hard."

But I can buy both games... I can't buy a CB Shimmer. Most of the time I can't even buy a 2nd gen one.

 

And even with shiny pokemon, there are certain methods to get them (somewhat) more easily. Hard work feels like it has a better guarantee of paying off, because I rely only on my own effort and patience rather than on someone else being willing to trade or breed for me.

 

Either way and as much as it can be picked over, I still feel collecting rare Pokemon is easier than collecting the rarest things on DC (and, again, relies less on the goodwill or availability of others). Others of course might have different feelings, but that's how it is for me. ^^

[Millie_Azure]

But I can buy both games... I can't buy a CB Shimmer. Most of the time I can't even buy a 2nd gen one.

 

And even with shiny pokemon, there are certain methods to get them (somewhat) more easily. Hard work feels like it has a better guarantee of paying off, because I rely only on my own effort and patience rather than on someone else being willing to trade or breed for me.

 

Either way and as much as it can be picked over, I still feel collecting rare Pokemon is easier than collecting the rarest things on DC (and, again, relies less on the goodwill or availability of others). Others of course might have different feelings, but that's how it is for me. ^^

1. Pokemon has nothing to do with this. This is DragCave. Not Pokemon.

 

2. I would just like to point out two things and then I'm done here. The first is that you have a 2G Prize on your scroll, thus telling me that it's not impossible to get one, because you've done it before. Was it hard? Yeah, I'm sure it was. Is it going to be hard to get another one? Yes. As it should be. But you've done it once, you can do it again. The second is things like the message in your signature. "Can offer art, CB Metals, CB Coppers, 50+ CB Common hatchlings, multiple Alts, Spriter's Alt lines, or other goodies for a 2g Prize. PM me!" That's part of the reason they're so hard to get and so valuable. It has nothing to do with the rates and everything to do with how much someone is willing to pay for something. If people stop offering an arm and a leg, the price goes down or people stop breeding and the ratios shift. Supply and demand. Right now, it's all demand and no supply. We have the power to change that. Stop demanding and supply goes up.

 

With that, I'm done here. I think TJ's made it pretty clear the rates aren't going to change, and I'm satisfied with that. They're fine the way they are. Rare dragons are meant to be hard to acquire. Plain and simple.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

1. Pokemon has nothing to do with this. This is DragCave. Not Pokemon.

 

2. I would just like to point out two things and then I'm done here. The first is that you have a 2G Prize on your scroll, thus telling me that it's not impossible to get one, because you've done it before. Was it hard? Yeah, I'm sure it was. Is it going to be hard to get another one? Yes. As it should be. But you've done it once, you can do it again. The second is things like the message in your signature. "Can offer art, CB Metals, CB Coppers, 50+ CB Common hatchlings, multiple Alts, Spriter's Alt lines, or other goodies for a 2g Prize. PM me!" That's part of the reason they're so hard to get and so valuable. It has nothing to do with the rates and everything to do with how much someone is willing to pay for something. If people stop offering an arm and a leg, the price goes down or people stop breeding and the ratios shift. Supply and demand. Right now, it's all demand and no supply. We have the power to change that. Stop demanding and supply goes up.

 

With that, I'm done here. I think TJ's made it pretty clear the rates aren't going to change, and I'm satisfied with that. They're fine the way they are. Rare dragons are meant to be hard to acquire. Plain and simple.

Both are games that are (mostly) about collecting, so I think pointing out examples of how I feel one can work better than the other in certain respects is relevant

 

As for what I'm willing to offer, it's a prisoner's dilemma. Yes, the rates would go down if everyone refused to pay high amounts for them. But all it takes is one person willing to offer more (and there will always be such people), and bang, everyone else suffers at the expense of that person.

 

Last but not least! Yes, I do have a 2nd gen. For the record, I'm also on lists for seven other 2nd gens (although two of them are, uh, sketchy, haha), and have been offered two others as gifts. Most of my spots are pretty low on the lists. So really, if I was in this for all profit and personal gain, I'd do well to keep my mouth shut and sell my third gens for high profits. Especially because most of the people I traded with were offering very reasonable prices, leaving me in a good spot to gain more than I gave.

 

But that's not what I'm after. I don't collect low gen Prizes to make a killing (as a matter of fact, I regularly gift 4th gens, and I even gift CB Metals now and then--hardly me looking for richness, eh?). I collect them because the dragons are pretty and I like working with them to make checkers and faux checkers. I think it would be nice if such opportunities existed for more people. That's also why I support the release of old CB Holidays again, even though the only CB Holiday I'm missing is a Holly (and I have a 2g of that from my dream mate). I just think the more options the better in this game (and in all collecting games) and will push for them wherever I can. <3

 

So tl;dr I can get 2nd gen Prizes every now and then, but many can't, and I think that's a shame.

Edited February 6, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Naruhina_94]

1. Pokemon has nothing to do with this. This is DragCave. Not Pokemon.

 

2. I would just like to point out two things and then I'm done here. The first is that you have a 2G Prize on your scroll, thus telling me that it's not impossible to get one, because you've done it before. Was it hard? Yeah, I'm sure it was. Is it going to be hard to get another one? Yes. As it should be. But you've done it once, you can do it again. The second is things like the message in your signature. "Can offer art, CB Metals, CB Coppers, 50+ CB Common hatchlings, multiple Alts, Spriter's Alt lines, or other goodies for a 2g Prize. PM me!" That's part of the reason they're so hard to get and so valuable. It has nothing to do with the rates and everything to do with how much someone is willing to pay for something. If people stop offering an arm and a leg, the price goes down or people stop breeding and the ratios shift. Supply and demand. Right now, it's all demand and no supply. We have the power to change that. Stop demanding and supply goes up.

 

With that, I'm done here. I think TJ's made it pretty clear the rates aren't going to change, and I'm satisfied with that. They're fine the way they are. Rare dragons are meant to be hard to acquire. Plain and simple.

1. His 2nd gen could even been a gift

2. If you are able to ask to every single person to don't offer anything even if they are looking for a second gen from monthes it will be great!

3. Prize owners don't always ask for an enormus amount of things. They simple don't have enought 2nd gens to give away, so they wouldn't accept a CB gold, but neither a CB whiptail ^^

[cyradis4]

Actually TJ hasn't said one way or another if the rates will change, or if he's open to a generational bias. All he's done is point out an inconsistency in the comparison ADP used, and asked for supporting evidence. Both of which are reasonable.

 

And you are putting the cart before the horse, there. If 2nd gen Prizes weren't nearly impossible to get, people would NOT offer an arm and a leg. So, you could turn it around and say, if you made 2nd gens more available, people would stop offering so much for them, because they could get them for something "reasonable". Reasonable being, you could get a Prize for several metals on a quasi regular basis.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 6, 2014 by cyradis4

[Mondat]

If there was any way to make a 2nd gen Prize worth as much as a CB Flamingo, I'd say do it! That would get rid of the elite the prizes have created, and also even out the trading market a lot. Sadly.... It can't happen. There simply are not enough CB Prizes to produce enough 2nd gens to actually glut the market

 

See...and this is why I don't believe that the breeding ratios of CB prizes or low-gen prizes are the "problem". It's also not the introduction of Shimmers or Tinsels. It's the people.

 

No one is entitled to get a 2nd-gen Prize, you'll say you know but I doubt some people really understand. From my point of view, if a person wins the raffle it's their win. It's their prize - it's THEIRS and will always be, and you might not get a 2nd-gen or 3rd-gen no matter how hard you try. I don't know why it seems so hard for some people to accept the existence of a virtual dragon pet which you cannot get. If your neighbour wins in the lottery, do you think of ways to get some money from him, too?

(I know I'll probably never get a 2nd-gen Thuwed or another 2nd-gen prize but it's absolutely fine. I was very very very very lucky with the one I have and I feel like I won the raffle myself. I am going to cherish it forever.)

 

If I won, I wouldn't want to have the value of the offspring decreased for the sake of other people. If there was some multiclutching, I would stop breeding. I do think that such suggestions are punishing prize winners for winning and are just unfair. How is this helpful for improving the raffle?

 

And let's talk about the "elite" or the "super elite" the prizes have created while I'm at.

While I think it's clear to everybody that it cannot be the fault of the CB Prize winners or prize catchers and they cannot do anything about it - they were just lucky to win/catch, poor people -, I don't think that some people who posted here know how they might come across actually.

We have people here who are sitting on several CB Metals, offsprings of Spriter Alts, 1 or several 2nd-gen Prizes or 1 or several 2nd-gen Thuweds etc. and who claim "they would support the idea of more productive CB/low-gen Prizes for decreasing the trading value so everybody can get more low-gens / they wish the trading market would be the same as before, before the oh so horrible prize dragons were introduced".

=> Why is it that I know some of the users who posted here from the Rare Trading thread, posting "WANT: Same gen Prizeswap or lower gen (!), 2nd-gen from Spriter's Alt, 2nd-gen Holly, 2nd-gen Thuwed - NO OTHER OFFERS!"?!

You want change for the trading community...? Then why don't you start with yourself first?

Why should the CB owners be helt solely responsible for the trading situation when most of them have only 1 CB prize & when all they did was winning a raffle?

What if nobody had asked Prize owners for their offspring in the first place? Where and when did the Prize obsession start? Why do people insist on hoarding them, the lower the better?

 

Many of you, who do not have a CB Prize on their scroll, are rich people/elite on DC, to me and to probably many more.

It's like you're screaming "Save the planet!" while you're dumping your garbage in the middle of a forest.

 

And if your average person can't attract a trade for a 2nd gen prize (even offering multiple CB Golds and Silvers, check the trades there are a ton of them doing that), then....

 

....I don't consider a player who can offer multiple CB Metals and stuff as an average player. I'd say I'm an average player and I only caught 2 CB Silvers since I started to play in May, I have only 2 CB Coppers which I caught recently. I have never caught a CB Gold in the cave. My only CB Gold and 1 CB Silver are the result of a very lucky all-number-code egg which I caught.

[whitebaron]

@adp: being on 8 2g lists did not strike you as elitist, or adding to the problem?

You basically admitted that its not enough for you, personally, to take up the equivalent of one CB prizes yearly breeding on lists. (while still searching for more slots, with very high offering prices, too!)

 

If cb breeding ratios were to be upped, I foresee the following: that people who currently manage to trade for a few slots, will gain many slots. People who already manage many slots, will try to get onto ALL OF THEM.

 

And people who can't currently trade for one, might very occasionally get lucky, but else, nothing would change for them, except that their lower gens would breed worse, too.

 

 

=> not my kind of good idea.

[DarkEternity]

If cb breeding ratios were to be upped, I foresee the following: that people who currently manage to trade for a few slots, will gain many slots. People who already manage many slots, will try to get onto ALL OF THEM.

 

As I have probably said before, EVERY raffle suggestion save the "release all the prizes into the caves" and multicltuching one has this issue.

 

Increase the number of winners and increase the breeding rate - either of these suggestions do absolutely nothing towards easing people off the dependence we call "trying to get on a list".

 

But that's not the point. People have already gotten on 'all the lists'. All this will ensure is that if more list spots are open at staggered intervals throughout the year, this may allow more watchful and vigilant individuals to slip through.

Edited February 7, 2014 by DarkEternity

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@adp: being on 8 2g lists did not strike you as elitist, or adding to the problem?

You basically admitted that its not enough for you, personally, to take up the equivalent of one CB prizes yearly breeding on lists. (while still searching for more slots, with very high offering prices, too!)

 

If cb breeding ratios were to be upped, I foresee the following: that people who currently manage to trade for a few slots, will gain many slots. People who already manage many slots, will try to get onto ALL OF THEM.

 

And people who can't currently trade for one, might very occasionally get lucky, but else, nothing would change for them, except that their lower gens would breed worse, too.

 

 

=> not my kind of good idea.

Considering there are six prizes varieties, each in both genders, each with at least a couple mates they look super pretty with--nope! Also two of the lists don't look like they're even legit and two were offered to me, not asked for.

 

They are pretty things. I want them, so I will trade for them. That's how the game works. But if there were more of them, the odds of them spreading more increase. Are you right that many will likely go to those who can afford them to begin with? Yes. But so is Dark--the more open lists, the more chances people have to get on through vigilance.

 

My signature gained zero interest; in all cases I was the one PMing and started by flat out saying I can only get CB Metals rarely, so would you like these other things instead? The lists I got on were asking pretty easy things. One wanted a few messy Alts (which I've been fishing from the AP); one wanted some mid generation Spriter's Alt lines, which I got through slow collecting and requesting, certainly without going into debt; the most expensive one was 3 CB Coppers + 2 CB Blusangs and that's still very reasonable. These aren't things only the elite can afford (except maybe the last, and even the Copper situation is slowly improving--Blusangs have definitely decreased in value as well). So it stands to reason that, were more lists open more frequently, a very wide variety of players can get those spots. Any old player can hatch messy Vines or request many of the same Spriter's Alt lines I did (my finest ones all came from nicely asking players with whom I'd rarely if ever spoken before).

 

Last but not least! At some point, for most of us, the hunger is sated. I have my quota of CB Metals so I gift them every so often now. Now, I haven't gotten any 2nd gen Prizes but the one yet (I don't trust IOUs 100% until they're on my scroll), so yah, I want more. Once I get some, my drive to collect them will drop. Of course this isn't what will happen in all cases, but more eggs stands a better chance than fewer eggs of satisfying collector's cravings and making way for newcomers (who, again, actually can afford 2nd gens more often than not--if the lists are open!)

 

(It's also worth noting that I got on all of these lists within less than a month of their opening. As time goes on, prices increase--and not necessarily because winners are getting more picky. Think about it: even if normally you'd love to swap for things like Alts or pretty lineages or whatever that you could get yourself but don't feel like bothering with, if you're going with six month gaps between shinies of course you're going to ask higher prices, and who could blame you? Still, it does make prospects worse for trading with older winners.)

Edited February 7, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[cyradis4]

I'm quoting this from what I wrong in another thread, because it fits both topics....

 

 

 

I already have every dragons sprite that I can get. In fact, I've got 16+ of almost every species that can be gotten. I've passed on two CB Silvers, because I've reached my goal of having 16 CBs and no longer want any more of a sprite I'm not a fan of. Despite it being "rare". The only reason I'm still playing this game is lineages. That, to me, makes each dragon DIFFERENT. And hence why I still have things to collect.

 

A lot of people are ambivalent about this idea, because it can be argued either way. However, your comment about "its not like the sprite is unobtainable" is what I object to. You are telling me HOW to play the game, that my view on lineages being extremely important is wrong. Without access to CBs, or at least to 2nd gens, I can't form most even gen lineages. The even gen lineages are the only ones, to me, that hold any challenge, and are the only ones I've really any desire to create anymore. So even gen lineages are one of the biggest reasons I'm still playing the game.

 

The Prize sprites are shiny and special and metallic. Had there only been ONE prize sprite, I doubt we'd be having this conversation, or at least, it wouldn't be nearly so big a deal. But its not one, its SIX. Six sprites, that the vast majority of people don't have access to in low gen varieties. SIX. There are, count em, two other metallic rares: Golds and Silvers. Ok, and I'll throw in Coppers too, for three more, bring the total of "available in 2nd gen" metallics to 5, and the number of "almost never available 2nd gen metallics" to 6.

 

That means that OVER HALF of the metallics in the cave are NOT USABLE for even gen lineages. Over HALF. In order to create an even gen lineage, either someone has to have already started said lineage or you have to be able to get 2nd gens, or at least, access to someone who has the 2nd gens and is willing to breed a 3rd gen even for you. When said 2nd gen owners can be found with the right dragons, I've had good luck. Mostly? Its nearly impossible to get them.

 

And depending on your point of view.... Silvers aren't flashy and have serious anatomy flaws (and they just look old and out-dated), and Coppers are pretty but again, not shiny. So of the in-cave shinies, only the Golds can be considered really flashy. Golds and the 6 Prize sprites. Or put another way..... Only 1 of 7 can be used in even gen lineages.

 

The Hollies are just one sprite. Just one. Out of, count em, seven Holiday breeds, plus the Valentine and Halloween breeds. And they can only be gotten once a year, and only the Hollies are hard to get in 2nd gen versions (and getting easier to get, to boot). So, for all but two or three weeks, they have a negligible effect on trading.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 7, 2014 by cyradis4

[whitebaron]

Adp, one just has to wonder. How many prize dragons do you expect out of a prize each year?

A typical metal breeds far less than that. Most uncommons to rares breed as well as prizes. Some commons breed more eggs, sure but they are not immune to no interest/no eggs.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Adp, one just has to wonder. How many prize dragons do you expect out of a prize each year?

A typical metal breeds far less than that. Most uncommons to rares breed as well as prizes. Some commons breed more eggs, sure but they are not immune to no interest/no eggs.

The more the merrier, IMO, but even one a month or at least one every two months would be a big improvement. Again, the original Gold Tinsels only produce one Tinsel every six months on average. That's a lot worse than most uncommons, at least in my experience.

 

Again the other side of the coin is maybe it's just the mates being overly common. As has been pointed out here and elsewhere, it's been seven months since Black Teas were released and getting anything but other super commons from them is like pulling teeth. Other commons are just as bad; it should not take three months to get an Albino from a Royal Crimson. But asking for the ratios of a special breed to be changed seemed more likely to occur than asking for the ratios to change for a normal...

 

Man, I don't know. I'm just looking at the breeding rates and they're pretty bleak. Aside from the six month average there's horror stories about Waterwalker and Royal Crimson lines, and watching two lists not move for months as people attempt to breed Prize x Balloon or Prize x Black Tea... seems like things could be better than they are. We could yell "breed more commons" but that's never really worked (and when we do raise them it doesn't seem to do anything either x___x)

 

tl;dr maybe it's more a general ratio problem than a prize problem, but trying to tackle ratios in general usually seems unsuccessful.

Edited February 7, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy