Improve Prize Breeding Ratios

[Thuban]

ADP: every single prize/balloon pairing I have managed to trade for, bred a prize within a few breedings, most in one or two. Even the higher gens are dropping babies at least every 2-3 weeks that are shiny. I just got a GOLD tin second gen from balloon on a first time pairing for a /new/ tin owner. I fully expected to see it fail and no egg for at least a month.

 

Of course, balloons have that lovely aspect of me and a few other users actually making a point to collect as many as possible at all times, to help them not be blockers. Getting just one shiny a month out of the prizes is good.. expecting anything more than that is just ridiculous. I have metals that took three YEARS to have their first metal baby. Why should prize dragons be any better than the official cb rares breeding rates? I know my own lines kick out prize babies at a pretty awesome rate. I know some prizes have pretty horrific rates. Its just the way the dice roll.

 

_________________________________________________________

The cbs are MEANT to be rare. The people who made them were aware of that fact when they made them. TJ seems satisfied with the way they are breeding (didnt he say in another thread they are breeding more often than commons?).. Sure, not everyone can have one as a cb.. but thats sort of the point of prizes. Only some people /can/ win. If everyone could win.. its not much of a prize, now is it?

 

Yes, having access to a cb would make my checker lineages SO much easier to complete.. but as its the one challange I still have left in this game, i am enjoying it. I am glad that tins are still available as prizes (i would have rather seen Shimmers as the main prize and tins popped over to HM, with a higher rate of HM awards). Because of the fact that those are still being handed out as a prize, I was able to finally track down the last tin I needed for my collection. I am looking forward to the challange or trying to talk people into trying to breed me balloon babies from their prizes.

 

If the main point of concern is the price that people are asking for the prizes for second gens is the issue.. then just refuse to trade at those prices. Sure, other people will get what they want, before you. but I didnt pay a single cb rare for /any/ of my second gens. Almost every single one of them was earned with common hatchys. One of them, only cost me 6 common hatchys out of a new release. One cost me 10. 2 cost me closer to 40.. but that was purely because I can handle numbers like that. The most expensive second gen.. cost me 5 blusang.. which took me less than a day to track down. Because of the numbers of cb metals people ARE offering for second gen prizes.. cb metals to me have NO trade value. I giggle when people offer them to me when I bother to trade my babies rather than gift them.

 

 

There was a time where I felt that Newly grown prizes should have a month or two of being able to multi-clutch. But, I got to thinking about it, and decided that that was un-needed. I know some owners prefer to kill the fail babies, and that would remove that control from them. I know some owners want to ensure that their babies only go to certain people. Its not that the sprites arent available for everyone to get, its /just/ the lineage issue that seems to be the issue. Lineages.. dont matter unless you want them to matter. Me, I will pass on every pretty second gen prize I see that ISN'T balloon. I have no interest in any lines that arent balloon or seasonal. The lack of second gens doesnt affect me outside of the pairings I want to see.

 

[cyradis4]

Thuban: Given the number of active players in the game, the number of CB Prizes, the natural attrition of users, CB owner breeding habits, and the slow rate they are released, there is no mathematical way that 2nd gens will ever become common. It just can't happen. Even if they bred a 2nd gen every single week. Every single one of them. And everything over 4th gen is already common and trade for, if you're lucky, 1 common hatchie. So there's no point in discussing their rarity.

 

Right this second, there are 1,000 people online in the Cave. Say, that only a quarter of total users are actually on right now. That's 4,000 users. The number is likely higher than that. I've seen the "users online" spike over 2,000, and at least half the world had to be asleep at that time.

 

This year, we are up to 20 CB Gold Tinsels. There are 52 weeks in the year. Or 52 breedings. That means, if every single one bred a Gold Tinsel every other week, that 520 2nd gens would enter the game in one year. Sounds like a lot, doesn't it? What it means is, each user could get 0.13 2nd gen Gold Tinsels a year. In a YEAR.

 

Lets look at it another way. If every single CB Gold Tinsel produced a 2nd gen Tinsel every other week, how long would it take to supply every user with 1 2nd gen Gold Tinsel? The answer: 7.7 years.

 

And it is not fair, nor right, to force a CB prize owner to breed every single week. Nor that they have to distribute the offspring. Nor that they even have to breed!

 

So in reality, there are maybe HALF of the 20 CB Gold Tinsels who would even be bred for others on a regular basis. And that means...... Those 10 Philanthropist Tinsels can supply only 260 2nd gens in a year, assuming 50% Tinsel to not tinsel breeding. That means, if DC has 4k users, each player can get 0.065 2nd gen Gold Tinsels in a year. Or, it takes over a DECADE for the current supply of Gold Tinsels to get everyone a 2nd gen. ONE second gen.

 

 

tl;dr

Just because YOU can afford multiple 2nd gen Tinsels and view them as "just rare" right now doesn't mean everyone else has your resources. The numbers do not lie. It is not mathematically possible to get everyone a 2nd gen Gold Tinsel. Therefore, 2nd gens will ALWAYS be super rare. The best we can hope for is to reduce them from "unobtainable" to "A few CB Metals" rare.

 

The rest of the Sprites follow the same pattern, but the Golds are the worst. The rest still suck, though.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 7, 2014 by cyradis4

[Fuzzbucket]

And it is not fair, nor right, to force a CB prize owner to breed every single week. Nor that they have to distribute the offspring. Nor that they even have to breed!

Actually it isn't even wise. TJ posted somewhere that not breeding every week was the best way to do things - he said that was how he reckons to do his Thuweds....

[vivo]

I'd rather not see this implemented. Am I the only one who wants rares to be, you know, rare? Without tough goals DC would get boring eventually, I'd rather not see that happen.

[cyradis4]

I'd rather not see this implemented. Am I the only one who wants rares to be, you know, rare? Without tough goals DC would get boring eventually, I'd rather not see that happen.

See above post. It is mathematically impossible for 2nd gen Prizes to ever be not rare.

 

And the high gens are already common.

 

C4.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Actually it isn't even wise. TJ posted somewhere that not breeding every week was the best way to do things - he said that was how he reckons to do his Thuweds....

I wonder if it doesn't matter if you alternate mates, though? I've seen some people have better luck breeding (or what looks like better luck, anyway) by rotating through a few mates. I do it with my normal Metals and they breed fairly well for what they are, might have to start trying with my Tins / Shimmers, too... although some are such "old pairs" that I feel guilty for breaking them up. ;;

[cyradis4]

I wonder if it doesn't matter if you alternate mates, though? I've seen some people have better luck breeding (or what looks like better luck, anyway) by rotating through a few mates. I do it with my normal Metals and they breed fairly well for what they are, might have to start trying with my Tins / Shimmers, too... although some are such "old pairs" that I feel guilty for breaking them up. ;;

That comment of TJ's has always struck me as him finding a way to justify him being lazy. It also didn't sound nearly so definite the way he wrote it, than as its being presented. I'd really love for TJ to clarify that.

 

The question would be: did he code the cave to take into account how recently the dragon was bred?

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Ashes The Second]

Why can't TJ just up the amount of contests we have in order for us to get more prizes? I would love more prizes! I want more more opportunities to win! I want to say that I was one of the few that were lucky.

 

I just want it to be a possibility. Even if it was upped by only two slots (chances) for someone to win, I would be happy.

[cyradis4]

Why can't TJ just up the amount of contests we have in order for us to get more prizes? I would love more prizes! I want more more opportunities to win! I want to say that I was one of the few that were lucky.

 

I just want it to be a possibility. Even if it was upped by only two slots (chances) for someone to win, I would be happy.

TJ thinks the prize to userbase ratio is good, so its unlikely we'll get more prizes per raffle. Yes, more Prizes would help. Some, maybe a lot. But.

 

As for more raffles, there is a suggestion about that. And most people seem ok with it, so long as it did NOT affect normal releases. But most are against it if it affects the regular releases.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Kojayo]

Honestly, I've talked to a lot of prize owners, and I think with dedication we could supply the demands of a large mass of people without having to release prizes into the cave or anything like that.

 

Perhaps, the breeding wait time could be cut in half for CB prize owners? And the fertility rate could be moved to 100%?

[cyradis4]

Honestly, I've talked to a lot of prize owners, and I think with dedication we could supply the demands of a large mass of people without having to release prizes into the cave or anything like that.

 

Perhaps, the breeding wait time could be cut in half for CB prize owners? And the fertility rate could be moved to 100%?

"Dedication" and "good breeding" are the keys there. That's what this suggestion is about: increase the breeding rates. I happen to agree with you, with good breeding rates the current and future winners who are willing can supply enough 2nd gens that 2nd gens drop to "very rare" from "unobtainable". And very rare is a good thing, because it does make something you can work for, but is still obtainable.

 

My personal favorite is give the CBs a flat breeding rate: half the time, they produce Tinsels. The other half, they produce based on the mate's ratios. Or something like that. That no matter what, the CB Prize has a 50% chance of a Prize.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[TJ09]

That comment of TJ's has always struck me as him finding a way to justify him being lazy. It also didn't sound nearly so definite the way he wrote it, than as its being presented. I'd really love for TJ to clarify that.

 

The question would be: did he code the cave to take into account how recently the dragon was bred?

 

Cheers!

C4.

It is true that breeding success increases with the length of time since last breeding, up to a point.

 

I've never bothered to do the match to see if it's more beneficial to breed every week or breed every three weeks--My gut feeling is that having more chances to breed is going to be better, even if the individual chance is lower.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

It is true that breeding success increases with the length of time since last breeding, up to a point.

 

I've never bothered to do the match to see if it's more beneficial to breed every week or breed every three weeks--My gut feeling is that having more chances to breed is going to be better, even if the individual chance is lower.

Thanks for clarifying! I wondered every now and then if it was really hurting my chances if I bred every week--good to know it's not that extreme.

[Shamiir]

Why can't TJ just up the amount of contests we have in order for us to get more prizes? I would love more prizes! I want more more opportunities to win! I want to say that I was one of the few that were lucky.

 

I just want it to be a possibility. Even if it was upped by only two slots (chances) for someone to win, I would be happy.

Probably a vast minority, but there are players in this game who would like see the end to the prizes rather than see more.

 

This game has become all about the prize dragons and there is very little *Dragon Cave* left to the game.

My vote would be to end the raffles and give every player of a certain level 1 limited edition (of 200, 500, whatever) and bring the game back to a more level playing field.

[Fuzzbucket]

Probably a vast minority, but there are players in this game who would like see the end to the prizes rather than see more.

 

This game has become all about the prize dragons and there is very little *Dragon Cave* left to the game.

My vote would be to end the raffles and give every player of a certain level 1 limited edition (of 200, 500, whatever) and bring the game back to a more level playing field.

I am pretty much OK with them as they are now; but I am one of those who would rather see an end to them than have more than the one raffle a year.

 

I shall now return to thinking about my lovely common lineages.

[Negru]

Probably a vast minority, but there are players in this game who would like see the end to the prizes rather than see more.

 

This game has become all about the prize dragons and there is very little *Dragon Cave* left to the game.

My vote would be to end the raffles and give every player of a certain level 1 limited edition (of 200, 500, whatever) and bring the game back to a more level playing field.

Wow, I think this has been the BEST solution ever offered so far! Prize dragons, the way they are constructed and used, have become the single most polarizing power on this site. It is as if everything else pales in comparison. And it does! So let's just end this madness and go back to Dragon CAVE. This era of the prize dragon has become overwhelming and ridiculous at this point.

 

However I would still love to see some dragons being obtained by some sort of skill. That may get me to come back to this game. I love the dragons, I love the artwork and I had fun making lineages! I became disheartened at the fact that not even 6 months after the release of shimmers could I get one. I had nothing valuable enough to offer for one. It also happened that my summers did not lay all the eggs I needed to continue with a special breeding plan, putting me A WHOLE YEAR behind.. because I was not lucky enough to breed them successfully or trade for a replacement. And to top it all of, I finally managed to summon a Guardian egg after A YEAR AND A HALF of trying. I stared at that Guardian egg and I only felt enormous disappointment and rage. And these are not emotions anyone should experience in a game. It took some new people on this site mere months to get one, some as much as three years. So I guess I should consider myself lucky it was "only" 1.5 years but then... then what? I could not even use the darn thing for anything. It just sat there on my scroll doing NOTHING. I couldn't trade it, couldn't breed it nor use it for anything. My point is, if there was some way to obtain a dragon though skill, that would offset the polarizing activity enormously rare luck-based dragons have on this site. It would allow people to have some sort of means to obtain something that they in turn could trade for a prize dragon. I think a balance needs to be struck here if TJ does not want to retire them.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Negru

[Thuban]

Given the number of active players in the game, the number of CB Prizes, the natural attrition of users, CB owner breeding habits, and the slow rate they are released, there is no mathematical way that 2nd gens will ever become common.

 

 

And thats exactly the way it SHOULD be. Its been broken down, multiple times, across most of the raffle threads, that there will always be more higher gens, than lower gens, no matter how you change things, AND that this game does NOT account for gen when it chooses to make an egg or not. I would HATE to see the day when this game's code actually acknowledges that lineages/generations are a /thing/, and adjust breeding success by that rate. The only thing I would like to ever see on that front, is a future hybrid that oly ever breeds true after a certain number of gens of /multiple/ breeds needing to be in the lineage, not just two. Think.. third and fouth gen pure thuweds, suddenly breeding hybrids.. for example.

[CNR4806]

And to top it all of, I finally managed to summon a Guardian egg after A YEAR AND A HALF of trying. I stared at that Guardian egg and I only felt enormous disappointment and rage. And these are not emotions anyone should experience in a game. It took some new people on this site mere months to get one, some as much as three years. So I guess I should consider myself lucky it was "only" 1.5 years but then... then what? I could not even use the darn thing for anything. It just sat there on my scroll doing NOTHING.

The GoNs are trophies. You don't expect a trophy to magically do amazing stuff.

 

I honestly can't get myself to understand why people want GoNs to be useful of any sort. They are not meant to be "tool" dragons like reds and pinks, they are for bragging rights ("oh look I survived countless summoning attempts and got this"), if you don't like them, why even bother to summon? Because that's kind of counterproductive.

 

On top of that, you have just said that they are obtained through sheer luck. If they're not "useless" like they are now, the moaning about the difficulty of obtaining them would not stop in the summoning threads in Site Discussion, but explode into full-on whining on Suggestions like the prizes, which is already a major headache.

Edited February 8, 2014 by CNR4806

[Irys]

It is technically possible to make 2nd gens appear more often than high generations by using the current game mechanics. They won't ever have the potential to produce as many as the glut of 10th generations do, BUT they could at least be more likely to reach their potential output.

 

We know that prize eggs as a whole are not rare, since they are all over the trade forums and TJ said they have produced more than any other common dragon has. So they, as a breed, apparently have a fairly large potential.

 

Unfortunately, it might require us to stop breeding our high generation prizes so that the lower generation prizes would be able to fill in and reach their full potential production rates.

 

The reason that breeding prizes to commons currently tends to throw commons is because, like TJ said, there are more prizes out there than many common breeds. So the game is trying to rebalance. If we bred those commons more than prizes then we could probably fix the balance using the current game mechanics.

 

I don't know. I have faith in the current game mechanics. It's my opinion that the unbalanced ratios have nothing to do with a flaw in the mechanics as TJ has implemented them. It's my opinion that the unbalance is entirely user created and therefore could, with work, be fixed by the userbase.

 

It doesn't sit well with me personally to ask TJ to tweak the ratios to get us out of the mess that we created just because we don't want to change our breeding habits within the confines of the game mechanics.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Irys

[Syphoneira]

Thuban: Given the number of active players in the game, the number of CB Prizes, the natural attrition of users, CB owner breeding habits, and the slow rate they are released, there is no mathematical way that 2nd gens will ever become common. It just can't happen. Even if they bred a 2nd gen every single week. Every single one of them. And everything over 4th gen is already common and trade for, if you're lucky, 1 common hatchie. So there's no point in discussing their rarity.

 

Right this second, there are 1,000 people online in the Cave. Say, that only a quarter of total users are actually on right now. That's 4,000 users. The number is likely higher than that. I've seen the "users online" spike over 2,000, and at least half the world had to be asleep at that time.

 

This year, we are up to 20 CB Gold Tinsels. There are 52 weeks in the year. Or 52 breedings. That means, if every single one bred a Gold Tinsel every other week, that 520 2nd gens would enter the game in one year. Sounds like a lot, doesn't it? What it means is, each user could get 0.13 2nd gen Gold Tinsels a year. In a YEAR.

 

Lets look at it another way. If every single CB Gold Tinsel produced a 2nd gen Tinsel every other week, how long would it take to supply every user with 1 2nd gen Gold Tinsel? The answer: 7.7 years.

 

And it is not fair, nor right, to force a CB prize owner to breed every single week. Nor that they have to distribute the offspring. Nor that they even have to breed!

 

So in reality, there are maybe HALF of the 20 CB Gold Tinsels who would even be bred for others on a regular basis. And that means...... Those 10 Philanthropist Tinsels can supply only 260 2nd gens in a year, assuming 50% Tinsel to not tinsel breeding. That means, if DC has 4k users, each player can get 0.065 2nd gen Gold Tinsels in a year. Or, it takes over a DECADE for the current supply of Gold Tinsels to get everyone a 2nd gen. ONE second gen.

 

 

tl;dr

Just because YOU can afford multiple 2nd gen Tinsels and view them as "just rare" right now doesn't mean everyone else has your resources. The numbers do not lie. It is not mathematically possible to get everyone a 2nd gen Gold Tinsel. Therefore, 2nd gens will ALWAYS be super rare. The best we can hope for is to reduce them from "unobtainable" to "A few CB Metals" rare.

 

The rest of the Sprites follow the same pattern, but the Golds are the worst. The rest still suck, though.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

 

 

 

This - I don't understand the 'keep the rarity' argument or the concern that low-gen prizes might ultimately drop to 'only' a few of the next-most valued dragons in the Cave, giving even just a very few more people hope of the lineages they dream of.

 

And nobody's happy with the current egg production of Prizes - people on lists are waiting years while owners pull their hair out in despair on breeding days, and others try offering fabulous sums without being able to get on any lists because eggs are not being regularly produced to make room for any more listers.

 

 

 

Personally, I like the concept of the raffles, and the random aspect is about as fair as it could be, allowing the same chance to someone on dial-up as to those on high-speed, and it's something different, as well.

 

But scarcity situations never work out well for any community, and wide-spread disaster, as recorded throughout history, is an utterly predictable result...

 

 

A big issue seems to be with the lousy production of Prizes, which turn something intended to be fun into something stressful both for many Prize owners and those wanting low-gens.

 

If the CBs and low-gens produced better, having perhaps the 50% probability recently suggested on this thread, the problem could begin to be at least somewhat alleviated.

 

Cutting off the Prize dragons/Raffles would make things FAR worse, not better - but something that would at least help would be the Prizes multi-clutching, in the descending order of numbers produced for CB, 2nd and 3rd gens already suggested.

 

After all, other special dragons - Holidays - retained the ability to multiclutch, and as long as the self-reproduction ratios for Prize dragons were significantly increased, there'd be more Tinsel/Shimmerkin and at least the odd low-gen Prize hitting the AP to relieve the issue somewhat on a gradual basis, by adding to the lower-gen breeding pool, while the odds of the owners producing for themselves/their listers would even more significantly increase.

 

I am aware that some owners do want to control all offspring, just as some are upset that they can't control all Holiday eggs produced, but not that long ago, multiclutches were common and were only eliminated in regular dragons because of the horrendous problems resulting from too many unwanted (messy/inbred/long-lineaged) bred eggs, something I'd personally never want to see happen again.

 

This problem typically wouldn't apply to lower-gen Prize eggs, although too many Shimmer-kin, if not nicely bred, might not be ideal.

 

But as the useful 2nd gens would be highest in numbers produced, the overall effect should be positive, to say the least.

 

And I know how much I, personally, would love it if my 2nd gen Tinsel and third gens finally started producing nice gifts!

 

And that if I'd ever won a Prize, I would have loved increased production with multi-clutching, and the chance to randomly give back to the rest of the community not so fortunate as the winners, without it ever affecting listers.

 

Sometime people who are rich might need to learn how to share their luck when they've got too much to hold onto.

 

Because with this degree of disparity, if they don't, the economy ultimately goes belly up.

 

If they'd rather not breed at all than risk potentially giving anything back to the rest of the community, that's their dragon and their choice.

 

But it's better than having the site go down the tubes and be lost to us all, because it winds up being fun for only a few people, and the great bulk of slower people unable to afford fast systems to catch great masses of trade fodder drift off feeling that they're wasting their leisure time on a game having for them predominately disappointment and a feeling of exclusion.

 

 

For most of us, there's no point in offering for a low-gen.

 

Even if we had the required payment, there are simply too few CB/2nd gen Prizes producing too little to supply even the small percentage of players who could provide it.

 

This situation is good for nobody, and it's taking the fun out of DC, which is a terrible waste of a darned good game, one which used to be about collecting the dragons we wanted for themselves, not about the value of trade fodder for something else almost nobody can get.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Having taken a bit of a breather I'd like to refocus my thoughts on the topic. If Prizes are breeding better than certain commons, a general increase in breeding success might not be in order, but an increase in at least the breeding rates of CB Prizes would still be a good thing, IMO. Whatever the overall rates of Prize breeding are, it's a fact that several CB Prize owners have gone months on end without a single Prize egg produced, which is both frustrating for the winners and frustrating for everyone hoping to collect low gens. Increasing their rates of breeding would give winners more bang for their buck rather than continual disappointment AND help the issues of low gen scarcity, even if only a little bit.

[hazeh]

As I stated in the other thread, I totally 100000% agree and support this suggestion. n_n

[Syphoneira]

Having taken a bit of a breather I'd like to refocus my thoughts on the topic. If Prizes are breeding better than certain commons, a general increase in breeding success might not be in order, but an increase in at least the breeding rates of CB Prizes would still be a good thing, IMO. Whatever the overall rates of Prize breeding are, it's a fact that several CB Prize owners have gone months on end without a single Prize egg produced, which is both frustrating for the winners and frustrating for everyone hoping to collect low gens. Increasing their rates of breeding would give winners more bang for their buck rather than continual disappointment AND help the issues of low gen scarcity, even if only a little bit.

 

 

 

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I have a 2nd gen Tinsel who has produced 7 Tinsel eggs since August of 2011.

 

If I were to breed a 6th gen for a 7th gen egg, (haven't for quite a while) I'll bet high odds of producing one, not just because I have more, but that the longer-gens tend to produce a lot better, probably because you have such a limited group with any interest in them, and the DC saying is that the more you want an egg/the longer the list out of a particular dragon, the less likely you are to get one.

 

But I do hope to increase the odds of lower-gen production by not breeding past 5th gen Prizes, and usually don't breed those anymore either, unless a particularly pretty lineage for someone I think might like it to look at, since the babies produce 6th gens which are wanted by very few.

 

Needless to say this cuts my breeding ability waaaaay down, lol.

 

But it's my mite toward possibly helping with a situation that, frankly, sucks.

 

[CNR4806]

If it is doable, just chop off the prize dragons, or if possible the CBs and/or the 2nd gens from the ratio system entirely, and change to a strictly percentage-based breeding system.

 

Either way, I kind of forgot if I've said it before but this is by far the least intrusive suggestion out of all current prize-related suggestions. The CB owners don't lose anything, and in fact they BENEFIT from this suggestion with the rest of the players as prizes breeding better (while still fully under their control) is equal to having their money printers' productivity upgraded.

 

This suggestion is unlikely to lower the trade value of 2nd gen prizes in any significant way (which means the CBs remain money printers for the winners), though it will probably push 3rd/4th gen value lower (and thus being more accessible to the average players).

[Syphoneira]

People won beautiful and special dragons as a raffle Prize in a collecting game, and through scarcity, they've turned into 'money printers' in what's being converted into a 'marketplace' which mirrors a Koch brothers scheme...

 

Personally, I think this is a very sad - and avoidable - waste of a fabulous game and community...

 

 

 

Edit: lol, just to mention, wasn't referring to Shiny Hazard Sign, or anyone specific, but to the change in perceptions among many which is altering language regarding DC into that of the stock market, due to the circumstances.

 

This is due to the scarcity/poor production rates, which very few like, especially including many CB owners, currently pulling their hair out over lack of results and list movement, in concert with many of the rest of the members.

 

But the effects are worse than the cause, dividing the community (edit: into progressively more extreme haves/have nots) through no player's fault, but through the extreme scarcity situation, which evidently TJ also recognises as a problem, as he ponders potential solutions...

Edited February 20, 2014 by Syphoneira