Improve Prize Breeding Ratios

[cyradis4]

Maybe we should change ShorahNagi's numbers into percentages. I guess we'd get a much better estimate.

But how do you factor in the time factor, and how often a dragon was actually bred?

 

I've stopped breeding many of my higher gen tinsels. So.... Which if these two is the better breeder?

http://dragcave.net/progeny/sAYIc

 

http://dragcave.net/progeny/yeViI

 

The first has only one Moonstone, but the other has 2 Tinsels and 6 Dorsals. The first, the "bad breeder" hasn't been bred in over a year. In fact, I think I bred him only once. The 2nd, the "better" breeder, has been bred almost every week since I got her, because she is a 3rd gen from a rare line. So in truth, we can't say how bad the 1st is at breeding, because he isn't bred. The 2nd is a poor breeder.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[ShorahNagi]

Is it really because breeding got worse, or because people didn't bother breeding the higher gen ones...?

As I said - the numbers in my post were made on observation only of the lineage - no other factors were considered.

 

Though it would make sense that higher gens. are not bred as much due to the fact they have a 'lower' value than ones of a lower generation.

 

Still though, I don't feel the problem is fully with the ratios themselves (sure, this plays a part in it) - but if this is the problem, I agree it would be nice to have a small increase in the Odds of getting the Prize breed.

Edited February 5, 2014 by ShorahNagi

[Starscream]

if my prize dragon (2nd gen) threw out multiples or gave out prize eggs frequently, I'd not bother with breeding it. No fun to have too much of a good thing. If I had a prize dragon G1, I'd not breed it if it threw out multiples.

[ShorahNagi]

If it will help you calculate - here's the numbers and the total offspring:

 

7th - 3 out of 12

6th - 4 out of 10

5th - 3 out of 7

4th -2 out of 9

3rd - 14 out of 24

2nd - 10 out of 27

1st - 8 (12 in total from non-horse parents) out of 34

 

I fail at percentages so if someone wants to calculate from this...

 

*If you want to know which Dragon I used to look for possible other factors beyond my observation numbers: http://dragcave.net/lineage/kM6Kw

Edited February 5, 2014 by ShorahNagi

[PointOfOrigin]

But how do you factor in the time factor, and how often a dragon was actually bred?

 

I've stopped breeding many of my higher gen tinsels. So.... Which if these two is the better breeder?

http://dragcave.net/progeny/sAYIc

 

http://dragcave.net/progeny/yeViI

 

The first has only one Moonstone, but the other has 2 Tinsels and 6 Dorsals. The first, the "bad breeder" hasn't been bred in over a year. In fact, I think I bred him only once. The 2nd, the "better" breeder, has been bred almost every week since I got her, because she is a 3rd gen from a rare line. So in truth, we can't say how bad the 1st is at breeding, because he isn't bred. The 2nd is a poor breeder.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I get your point. I guess, I'd just like to know if it was possible.

[Xythus]

Actually, the reason why the CBs are not breeding prizes is because their requesters are choosing certain mates. Its not the prizes themselves, its mate choice affecting the outcome.

 

Golden Epica has been bred to a STD for a while; good luck breeding a tinsel out of that.

 

Apollo has been breeding to a Bleeding Moon; LOL good luck for that too. Someone was trying to get a balloon from a bleeding moon, and that took many attempts.

 

I think one was also being bred to a Black Tea; someone tried to get a PEBBLE from 60 pairings from them, and got all black teas.

 

With holiday lines being unliked my many, yet when the owners breed them to uber commons and they only produce commons, complaining about their lack of productivity seems a bit ironic.

[DarkEternity]

I agree with Xythus. It's pretty easy to decide who breeds well with shimmers and produces shimmer offspring. Breed the species of your choice to one of your shimmers first! Or a silver or gold since they are difficult to get an egg from.

 

 

One of the people above me in a list decided that they wanted to have their shimmer from a NEW RELEASE of all things...

Edited February 5, 2014 by DarkEternity

[whitebaron]

With holiday lines being unliked my many, yet when the owners breed them to uber commons and they only produce commons, complaining about their lack of productivity seems a bit ironic.

Very much this. They are not just throwing no eggs, the likelyhood of producing a shimmer is just low due to them being bred to low population dragons.

 

Can't argue much about that,when i see my 10 months old shimmer with 37 offspring: http://dragcave.net/progeny/GzgiJ or my 10 month old tinsel with 34: http://dragcave.net/progeny/YVUyo or another 10 month old shimmer with 33: http://dragcave.net/progeny/VGpKW or another 9 month old shimmer with 31: http://dragcave.net/progeny/e0XL2 or another 9 month old shimmer with 29: http://dragcave.net/progeny/e6XnF

 

Its not at all the amount of offspring thats the problem, its that their mates are so low on population according to their ratios. Now compare it with this, 9 months old:

http://dragcave.net/progeny/tdjKh

 

clearly, they can't breed a silver in 40 tries?

[cyradis4]

Perhaps then what is needed is to.... disassocaiate the odds of getting a Prize from the odds of getting the mate? I'm not saying that quite right.....

 

Basically, have the Prizes produce at a flat ratio: Every breed, you have x% chance of a Prize. Then the ratios of the mate takes over, and if you don't get a prize that breeding, you've got a chance of producing the mate based on the mate's ratios.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[DarkEternity]

Who could forget http://dragcave.net/progeny/JQa4d vs http://dragcave.net/progeny/AMcSY

 

^^;;

[whitebaron]

Its also far from true for every shimmer to produce badly in the second half-year of their existence, btw:

this one is at a theoretical maximum of 15 breedings, which i definitely did not do. it has 10 offsprings, 8 of them prizes.

http://dragcave.net/progeny/yEm4v

 

 

---edit-- the latest shiny has just been bitten and died by its newest owner, so it cant be seen anymore.

 

Edited February 5, 2014 by whitebaron

[Wymsical]

I'll contribute some information here solely for your purposes, since I know at least a few people in here would appreciate it.

 

Galletian Victory, an original CB Bronze Tinsel, has been bred regularly for his entire existence. If I were to guess how many weeks of missed breeding there has been, it would probably be about 5. Four of those being times where I did not have computer access, and only one of those being a time where I didn't get around to it because I was incredibly busy.

 

There haven't been many refusals. I can only remember three off of the top of my head: Lumina, Tan Ridgewing, and Skywing. I think there's been one or two others, but I'll have to check in a few days because I honestly cannot recall them at the moment.

 

The worst bout of breeding has to go to this Turpentine. There was a lot of no egg/no interest, probably because the two just didn't like each other much in general. But because there was a Turpentine involved, I was just glad to not get a refusal and thus kept it up for as long as I could. Looking back, I probably should've bothered to attempt at least one switch to a different Turpentine. But whatever, it's done so I don't care now.

 

I've only done breeding to a Holiday dragon out of season once, because it was a request. The lack of breeding him to Holiday dragons out of season isn't for any real reason, I just generally have more interest in regular dragons overall.

 

It's my intention to breed at least one Tinsel from every single pairing I can possibly do (including Holiday ones). This has been my intention ever since I first found out I won. For now, I'm working on establishing the pairs (so it doesn't matter what they give me for now, so long as it's something). After I've done most everything I plan to go back and breed the ones that haven't made a Tinsel yet.

 

For the last few months I feel that he has been breeding very well and I am very satisfied. Overall, I think he breeds just fine. Yeah, there's some ups and downs but it's to be expected.

 

If there's anything else you'd like me to elaborate on because you'd actually find the information useful, just let me know.

[Astreya]

Well, I can add my breeding protocol for Cayvyn here. I edited out the receivers of the eggs and the codes. First is the name of the partner, second the breed of the egg that came out. I missed some weeks breeding as I was not very well, so this is only for the weeks when I did breed Cayvyn. The asterisks are for Bronze Tinsel eggs; a/b/c signify Holiday breedings with several eggs.

 

*01. Furricaia/Black, Bronze

*02. Emberaia/Ember, Bronze

03. Furricaia, Black

*04. Furricaia, Bronze

-- no interest (Emberaia) --

-- no egg (Emberaia) --

05. Emberaia, Ember

06. Emberaia, Ember

-- no interest --

*07. Emberaia, Bronze

-- no egg (Candidiana/White Stripe) --

-- no egg (Candidiana) --

-- no interest (Candidiana) --

*08. Roseia/OldPink, Bronze

-- refused (Gardaina/Guardian) --

-- no egg (Gardaia/Guardian) --

*09. Karylla/Magma, Bronze

10. Electraia/Electric, Electric

11. Karylla, Magma

-- no interest (Karylla) --

*12. Karylla, Bronze

-- no egg (Thunaraaia/Thunder) --

-- no egg (Aureaia/Gold) --

-- no egg (Thunaraaia) --

-- no egg (Thunaraaia) --

*13. Nebeleia/OrangeNebula, Bronze

*14. Yulaana/RibbonDancer, Bronze

*15. Yuleana/SnowAngel, Bronze

*16. Acy/Thunder, Bronze

*17. Candidiaia/WhiteStripe, Bronze

*18. Nebeleia, Bronze

-- refused (Frillaia/Frill) --

19. Acy, Thunder

20a. Samuinaia/BlackMarrow, Marrow

20b. Samuinaia, Marrow

20c. Samuinaia, Marrow

-- no egg (Acy) --

-- no egg (Acy) --

*21. Spiritaia/ShadowWalker, Bronze

-- refused (Autumnaeia/Autumn) --

22. Autumnaia/Autumn, Autumn

23. Autumnaia, Autumn

*24. Autumnaia, Bronze

*25. Iceaia/Ice, Bronze

-- refused (Samuinaia) -- <--- This was a fascinating effect as on Halloween they bred true

26. Crestaia/TanRidgewing, Tan Ridgewing

27. Crestaia, Purple Ridgewing

28. Crestaia, Bronze

*29. Samuineia/BlackMarrow, Bronze

-- no egg (Royalaia/RoyalBlue)

*30. Royalaia, Bronze

-- refused (Costaeia/CoastalWaverunner) --

*31. Costaia/CoastalWaverunner, Bronze

32. Harvestaia/Harvest, Harvest/ND

-- no egg (Harvestaia) --

-- no egg (Harvestaia) --

33. Harvestaia, Harvest

-- no egg (Harvestaia) --

34. Harvestaia, Harvest

-- no egg (Harvestaia) --

35. Harvestaia, Harvest

*36. Harvestaia, Bronze

-- refused (Turpenteaia/Turpentine) --

-- refused (Turpenteeia/Turpentine) --

-- no egg (Aureaia/Gold) --

-- no egg (Aureaia) --

-- no interest (Aureaia) --

-- no interest (Aureaia) --

-- no egg (Aureaia) --

-- no egg (Aureaia) --

-- no egg (Aureaia) --

-- no egg (Aureaia) --

-- no interest (Auriea/Gold) --

-- no interest (Auriea) --

-- no interest (Auriea) --

-- no egg (Auriea) --

-- no egg (Auriea) --

-- no egg (Auriea) --

-- no interest (Auriea) --

-- no egg (Auriea) --

-- no interest (Auriea) --

-- no interest (Auriea) --

-- no interest (Auriea) --

37a. Spiritaia/ShadowWalker, Shadow Walker

37b. Spiritaia, Shadow Walker

37c. Spiritaia, Shadow Walker

-- no interest (Auriea) --

-- no egg (Cavernia/CavernLurker) --

-- no egg (Cavernia) --

-- no egg (Cavernia) --

-- no egg (Cavernia) --

-- no egg (Cavernia) --

-- no egg (Cavernia) --

-- no egg (Cavernia) --

-- no egg (Cavernia) --

-- no egg (Cavernia) --

-- no interest (Sylverina/Silver) --

38. Roseia/OldPink, Pink

39. Roseia, Pink

*40. Roseia, Bronze

*41. Sylverina, Bronze

-- refused (Luminaia/Lumina) --

42. Luminaea/Lumina, Lumina

-- no interest (Fireaia/Red) --

-- no egg (Fireaia) --

-- refused (Ffireaia/Red) --

43. Fireaia, Red

44. Fireaia, Red

*45. Samuineia, Bronze

-- no interest (Fireaia) --

-- no interest (Fireaia) --

46. Luminaea, Lumina

47a. Cavernia, Cavern Lurker

47b. Cavernia, Cavern Lurker

47c. Cavernia, Cavern Lurker

48. Luminaea, Lumina

49. Luminaea, Lumina

50. Luminaea, Lumina

*51. Luminaea, Bronze

*52. Fireaia, Bronze

53. Roseia, Pink

54a. Yulaana/RibbonDancer, XMas2010

54b. Yulaana, XMas2010

54c. Yulaana, XMas2010

*55. Yulaana, Bronze

*56. Yulaaia, Bronze

*57. Roseia, Bronze

*58. Roseia, Bronze

59. Triwyvaia/TriHornedWyvern, TriHorn

-- no interest (Triwyvaia) --

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Alright, I think we can all agree that mileage will vary by dragon type. Breeding to wicked commons is wicked painful - I imagine most of us can testify to that!

 

But still, whatever the cause, I think an increase in the ratios would be beneficial. Slice it, explain it, or blame it as you like, the average Tinsel production amount of the original five Gold Tinsels is still only 6.3 Tinsels a year. Even if the cause of that is breeding to commons, the fact remains that such small numbers do very little to spread low gens throughout the game, and give most Prize owners more frustration than satisfaction in their breeding attempts - neither of which is a good thing.

 

Accordingly, I still think it would be a good idea to up the ratios, or even guarantee a certain percent chance of successful breeding. The pros are obvious - more low gen Prizes, likely happier CB owners, and hopefully a slight price reduction as lists can be cleared and opened more quickly. The cons would, I think, not be all that problematic. I doubt low gen Prizes would ever become too common or cheap, seeing as three years have passed and second and third gen prizes still can regularly go for multiple CB Metals if that's what the owner asks for. There's also the chance that there could be more messy Prizes floating around the AP, but even the messiest Tinsels I've seen don't sit in the AP for very long before they're snapped up (and kept), suggesting even they still have considerable value to some.

 

The other argument is that rares are supposed to be rare, but 1) again, they are already the rarest of the rare, so them coming down to more sane levels (like one 2g usually equaling 1-2 CB Metals in worth, and being regularly available for that price) wouldn't be bad at all, and 2) they increase in number far more slowly than do normal Metals, so they shouldn't be held to the same standards, really.

 

Alternately we could just start teaching Black Teas and Balloons about birth control

[TJ09]

1) again, they are already the rarest of the rare, so them coming down to more sane levels (like one 2g usually equaling 1-2 CB Metals in worth, and being regularly available for that price) wouldn't be bad at all, and

[citation needed]

 

2) they increase in number far more slowly than do normal Metals, so they shouldn't be held to the same standards, really.

[citation needed]

 

I would say that my statement about more prize dragons being bred than many common breeds (see page 1) refutes both of those claims.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

[citation needed]

 

 

[citation needed]

 

I would say that my statement about more prize dragons being bred than many common breeds (see page 1) refutes both of those claims.

Have you tried trading for 2g Prizes, TJ? I'm not really sure how I can cite that, but I do know I've offered 4 CB Metals, a 2g Holly, and a 2g Thuwed all variously for a 2g Prize a couple months ago and had not even the slightest show of interest. I have also scanned many profiles and signatures since Tinsels were first released and it is very rare indeed to find a list open for offers - which, of course, means a CB Metal or two will do nothing. I'm sure there are many others here who can offer similar stories.

 

As for the latter one, I meant CB Prizes increase in number much more slowly than do CB Metallics, sorry if that was unclear. You're the only one who can know all the facts for certain (and you don't seem to like sharing the numbers often!), but I see multiple CB Metals up for offer every day, but there's only the one raffle of a hundred or so CB Prizes per year - suggesting the latter are much rarer in number.

Edited February 5, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Amazon_warrior]

I would say that my statement about more prize dragons being bred than many common breeds (see page 1) refutes both of those claims.

....what I'm taking from that is, "Want more shinies? Then breed and raise more commons, kids."

[DarkEternity]

....what I'm taking from that is, "Want more shinies? Then breed and raise more commons, kids."

Oh dear.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

....what I'm taking from that is, "Want more shinies?  Then breed and raise more commons, kids."

This approach has been tried and tried for years and done very little good. If the current system can only function if people raise hoards of commons they don't want (which doesn't happen), then it needs to be reevaluated.

 

Plus, a lot of us DO raise commons. I've been swapping 2g-4g shinies for pretty lineaged Black Teas (hard to find, since they hate doing anything but PB), Speckles, Flamingos, and Black Tips for months. A look at my scroll shows I certainly don't neglect collecting commons, and the same is true for most players. Hasn't done us much good though, has it?

 

To get back to the heart of the matter - exclusive dragons stink. The fact that the vast majority of players will never get 3g Prizes, much less 2gs, much less CBs, stinks. Can you get the sprites? Yes--but if the game is played only from that perspective, it's a remarkably easy game. Lineages have kept the fascination of many older players who would otherwise have grown bored, so in a way lineages are a breed of their own, and not being able to play around with Shimmer / Tinsel lineages as much as we would like is a bummer for many of us. So, yes, I would like to see more low gen Prizes in circulation - and a breeding rate improvement is one of the least obtrusive, most beneficial ways to do that.

Edited February 5, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fiona]

ADP, the fact that lists aren't open doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how well CB prizes breed. It just means that the lists stay full unless the CB prize owner decides not to keep adding to the list.

 

I can't beg or borrow my way onto the Thuwed list either. It doesn't mean there are no eggs bred, or that there are never any open slots. I just haven't been lucky enough to get on the list yet.

 

 

My own 4 2nd gen prizes have all been acquired in the last year. They breed reasonably well.

[Ashes The Second]

@ADP: They can do what they want with their prize dragons; personally, I would breed mine for myself and have it be the only dragon on the site where the higher the generation, the more prized the dragon is, because I wouldn't let anything but a 12th gen off my scroll for anybody. Turning Dc on it's heads will make people panic, and that is what I want.

[Xythus]

For the record, using trading statistics is a moot contribution to how well/badly prizes breed. Forums are separate from the main site, and trading is a user-formed activity and all exchanges must be willfully made. I mean, you RARELY EVER see 2nd gens for trade on the threads; for all we know the owners may not breed them every week or do anything.

[DarkEternity]

I mean, you RARELY EVER see 2nd gens for trade on the threads; for all we know the owners may not breed them every week or do anything.

This, I've only seen two in 4 years.

Edited February 5, 2014 by DarkEternity

[TJ09]

....what I'm taking from that is, "Want more shinies?  Then breed and raise more commons, kids."

I didn't say that at all.

 

All I said is that, by the numbers, prizes are more common than commons. And this thread wants them to be even more common.

 

The thing is, this thread and most of the discussion therein is centered around 2G prizes specifically. Population balancing doesn't care about generation--and it shouldn't. Constructing a lineage already becomes exponentially hard as you go, because each gen requires twice the dragons to make a full lineage. If you prioritize 2G over later gens, then your lineage becomes even more exponential.

Edited February 6, 2014 by TJ09

[angelicdragonpuppy]

ADP, the fact that lists aren't open doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how well CB prizes breed. It just means that the lists stay full unless the CB prize owner decides not to keep adding to the list.

 

I can't beg or borrow my way onto the Thuwed list either. It doesn't mean there are no eggs bred, or that there are never any open slots. I just haven't been lucky enough to get on the list yet.

 

 

My own 4 2nd gen prizes have all been acquired in the last year. They breed reasonably well.

You're right about that, but at least in the cases I've observed, it's a true matter of the darn things not wanting to breed true rather than lists discretely filling as spots open. It is probably due in no small part to the choice of super commons as breeding partners, but - what's the fix to that? Tell people to only breed to Holidays or rares if they want to be able to trade or gift? And if such a thing happened, wouldn't the common problem only get worse and hurt those who do like working with common x rare lines even more?

 

My Shimmers started off breeding decent, but in last months it's dipped abysmally... Tinsels have been more consistent, despite regular breeding. Still, due to seeing others reporting issues and the above mentioned never moving lists, I thought it was worth bringing up.

 

And again--while the argument can be made that it's not really needed, I hope the suggestion also doesn't really have any negative aspects to it that would strongly make people want to see it not implemented. The entire reason I made this thread was because the general raffle suggestions thread was closed, and the entire reason that thread was made because a lot of us are put out that such a pretty breed is so hard to get low gens of to work with (you can do a lot more with a 2g Shimmer from a mate of your choice than you can with an 8g stairstep Shimmer from a pairing you had no say in, at least if patterned lineages are your gig). So even if Prize breeding is "okay," I think this would be a nice way to decrease the prize owner / regular player gap, while still keeping them valuable and not being highly controversial (unlike multiclutching or an eventual in-cave release).