Improve Prize Breeding Ratios

[Amazon_warrior]

I didn't say that at all.

 

All I said is that, by the numbers, prizes are more common than commons. And this thread wants them to be even more commons.

Apologies. I read it the other way round - that commons are under-populated compared with prizes. My bad.

[TJ09]

ADP, the fact that lists aren't open doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how well CB prizes breed. It just means that the lists stay full unless the CB prize owner decides not to keep adding to the list.

 

I can't beg or borrow my way onto the Thuwed list either. It doesn't mean there are no eggs bred, or that there are never any open slots. I just haven't been lucky enough to get on the list yet.

 

 

My own 4 2nd gen prizes have all been acquired in the last year. They breed reasonably well.

This is a fairly good point.

 

The second gen Thuwed lists are pretty backed up. I don't manage them by hand, so I don't know the gritty details, but I believe there are people on there who have been waiting well over a year.

 

So I don't think prize dragons are any special case.

[DarkEternity]

All I said is that, by the numbers, prizes are more common than commons. And this thread wants them to be even more commons.

Well at least we know why the value of prizes drops off so significantly after 2nd gen

[Slaskia]

I think the problem boils down to a point that kept getting forgotten in the old thread: trade value.

 

Yeah, Prizes are 'common' overall, but the gens that everyone seems to want are far from 'common'. Unfortunately there's no way to fix that with the ratios, as if TJ adjust the ratios to have Prizes be even more common, the chances of CB - 4th gen producing more will be negated simply by the fact that there are a heck of a lot more 5th + ones out there. The higher gen population would balloon that much more. After all, the cave doesn't care what gen a dragon is....

 

Really the only way to get more low gens out there is to either (or both):

 

1: increase the number of CBs out there by a lot, which is not likely to happen.

2: folks stop breeding the high gens so much (not likely going to happen considering a good chunk of the player base are not on the forums).

[whitebaron]

The thing is, this thread and most of the discussion therein is centered around 2G prizes specifically. Population balancing doesn't care about generation--and it shouldn't. Constructing a lineage already becomes exponentially hard as you go, because each gen requires twice the dragons to make a full lineage. If you prioritize 2G over later gens, then your lineage becomes even more exponential.

Amen on that. Its very tough to breed 5-6g even gens of anything, no matter what it is. which means, in my opinion, that the whole breeding, not just shimmers, could need a little boost, especially in times when the ratios would tell us that it's a very bad time to breed.

[Irys]

Just food for thought.

 

 

Fixing the Ratios:

 

In brief, we know that the ratios make commons produce more often than uncommons and rares.

 

We know that demand can make a common dragon appear to be rare.

 

We know how long a dragon counts towards the ratios.

 

We know that the game does not differentiate between a 15th generation dragon and a 2nd generation dragon. Therefore, the game does not view 2nd gen dragons as "rarer" than any other generation.

 

We know that every time a prize egg of any generation is produced, it affects the ratio.

 

We have the knowledge of how exactly we can manipulate the current game design in order to make a specific dragon appear rare, and therefore we have the knowledge of how to reverse that to make a rarer dragon appear common.

 

TJ has already pointed out that Prizes have been bred far more than any other dragon in the cave. We know this is true because the trading threads are dominated by prize trades.

 

To rebalance the ratios, we must stop breeding prize dragons for 12 months in order to let the current glut of prizes fall off the ratios.

 

It would be beneficial to fill that time by snatching up all those cave blockers. Breed those cave blockers and make them all as rare as blacks used to be.

 

When the 12 months pass, if we want to produce more 2nd gens than 10th gens, we have to only let the CBs be bred. Every non-2nd gen egg laid reduces the chance of a 2nd gen being laid, after all.

 

That is the only real way to ensure that 2nd gens are the ones being produced more often than any other generation. This is because every generation below 2nd is going to be exponentially larger and grow faster than the 2nd generation will. More on that below.

 

 

Fixing the coding and making prizes "not common but not rare:"

 

Let's consider what would happen if prize dragons had a 100% success rate of producing only prize dragons. This would, of course, make them the absolute rock-bottom, most common egg in the game according to the ratios.

 

Even if the prize dragons only ever produced prize dragons, without fail, a single CB dragon can only ever produce 1 2nd gen egg a week.

 

5 2nd gen dragons would produce 5 3rd gen dragons every week. 10 3rd gens would produce 10 4th gens every week, so on and so forth.

 

Take Epica and her current 14 2nd gens, for example (and, again, assuming a 100% shiny success rate).

 

This week Epica would produce 1 2nd gen egg and 14 3rd gen eggs.

Next week Epica would produce 1 2nd gen egg and 28 3rd gen eggs.

The next week Epica produces 1 2nd gen egg and 42 3rd gen eggs.

 

So now the total is 17 2nd gens and 42 3rd gen eggs. Even if only Epica and the original 14 2nd gens are bred, there would be 14 new 3rds laid for every 2nd.

 

If a brand new CB prize produced an egg every single week, at best it would produce 52 eggs in a year (by comparison, the 2nd gens would create that many eggs in a month).

 

Every subsequent generation will be exponentially higher than the one before it, and grow each week. The 2nd gens produced by that dragon, however, will only ever grow by 1 egg per week.

 

*shrugs*

 

Just food for thought.

[cyradis4]

Fixing the coding and making prizes "not common but not rare:"

 

Let's consider what would happen if prize dragons had a 100% success rate of producing only prize dragons. This would, of course, make them the absolute rock-bottom, most common egg in the game according to the ratios.

 

Even if the prize dragons only ever produced prize dragons, without fail, a single CB dragon can only ever produce 1 2nd gen egg a week.

 

5 2nd gen dragons would produce 5 3rd gen dragons every week. 10 3rd gens would produce 10 4th gens every week, so on and so forth.

 

Take Epica and her current 14 2nd gens, for example (and, again, assuming a 100% shiny success rate).

 

This week Epica would produce 1 2nd gen egg and 14 3rd gen eggs.

Next week Epica would produce 1 2nd gen egg and 28 3rd gen eggs.

The next week Epica produces 1 2nd gen egg and 42 3rd gen eggs.

 

So now the total is 17 2nd gens and 42 3rd gen eggs. Even if only Epica and the original 14 2nd gens are bred, there would be 14 new 3rds laid for every 2nd.

 

If a brand new CB prize produced an egg every single week, at best it would produce 52 eggs in a year (by comparison, the 2nd gens would create that many eggs in a month).

 

Every subsequent generation will be exponentially higher than the one before it, and grow each week. The 2nd gens produced by that dragon, however, will only ever grow by 1 egg per week.

 

*shrugs*

 

Just food for thought.

Its that reason why I was advocating, in the other thread, to just have the (extremely finite) amount of CB Prizes breed to different ratios than the rest of the prize population. The CBs can only ever be won in a contest, which happens once a year, and has a very limited number of winners. Its a geometric increase for the bred Prizes, but the CBs only increase at raffle time.

 

Fact: The only reason I play this game anymore is to collect and breed pretty lineages. I have almost every single other sprite that can still be gotten already. I'm missing a dozen or so freezies, and that's it. No lineages? I don't play anymore, because there's nothing more to do.

 

Opinion: The CB Tinsels and CB Shimmers are some of the prettiest sprites on the site, and there are six of those sprites.

 

Opinion: The only "rares" we have that look worthy of the name are Tinsels, Shimmers, and the new Gold sprites. They look rare and shiny and special. Silvers are pallid in comparison, and don't look special, and while I love Coppers, they aren't shiny and don't give those "I'm Special!" vibes. Humans tend to like shiny things. There are a few sprites on the completed list that give that "I'm Special!" feel, but they are still on the Completed list (*cough* Tanglewyrms *cough*)

 

Fact: Out of those 7 sprites, I can use ONLY ONE to make any lineage I want, unless I want to accept unsightly tombstones in my lineage. Given the current breeding rates of the CBs, no one (not even prize owners) can routinely get 2nd gens. But with Golds and Silvers, if you have enough, if you don't have bad luck you can breed just about anything you want.

 

Fact: I do, indeed, breed a lot of common x common checkers. I routinely see my lineages in the "Great lineages found in the AP" thread. It always makes me happy to see them there.

 

Opinion: Having some way to decrease the odds of producing the mate's egg would be fantastic, for all breeders. You shouldn't have to breed 60 Black Teas to get one Pebble, since both are dirt common. The "Luck" BSA proposed for Sunsongs would fit the bill (though I hear TJ is opposed to the name "Luck" )

 

Cheers!

C4.

[lorimmel]

I support CB prizes breeding much better.

 

For all users, the chances of getting 2nd and 3rd gens will be much better.

 

For the owner, this means more trading opportunities, and if the prices go down because of it, greater number of shiny eggs will compensate any possible "loss".

 

And for the breeder, creating many more beautiful lineages will be very exciting. I've spent a year and a half trying to breed a 2nd gen from Epica x STD/Horse, and had to give up in the end. I think it would take YEARS. And it's no fun. Some combos are just gorgeous but impossible to get.

[Irys]

My second point covers the coding issue, cyradis, because it assumes that all prize dragons (including CB) would be 100% successful in breeding shiny eggs. A CB can still only produce, at maximum, 52 eggs per year.

 

The other generations will produce far more, which will skew people's perceptions of what's going on.

 

 

On a slightly different note on the coding, what you're asking is for CB prizes to have their own special coding outside of the rest of the game. The ratios encompass all the dragons. So this would require more than just a "tweak."

 

At the same time it's like asking for CB Prizes to be like Frills with Benefits. They would breed with other dragons but never produce their own "breed" of dragon (Because the cave would see CB prizes as a separate breed from 2nd gens). Instead a Frill + Deepsea would produce Deepsea and Reds, except that the Reds would have a Frill sprite.

 

That, to me, seems convoluted and not something that I personally see TJ being inclined to put the effort into. As a coder in that position, I certainly wouldn't. It would have been like asking to have CB blacks be a different breed than lineage blacks just because it was hard to catch them 2 years ago.

 

[TJ09]

My second point covers the coding issue, cyradis, because it assumes that all prize dragons (including CB) would be 100% successful in breeding shiny eggs. A CB can still only produce, at maximum, 52 eggs per year.

 

The other generations will produce far more, which will skew people's perceptions of what's going on.

 

 

On a slightly different note on the coding, what you're asking is for CB prizes to have their own special coding outside of the rest of the game. The ratios encompass all the dragons. So this would require more than just a "tweak."

 

At the same time it's like asking for CB Prizes to be like Frills with Benefits. They would breed with other dragons but never produce their own "breed" of dragon (Because the cave would see CB prizes as a separate breed from 2nd gens). Instead a Frill + Deepsea would produce Deepsea and Reds, except that the Reds would have a Frill sprite.

 

That, to me, seems convoluted and not something that I personally see TJ being inclined to put the effort into. As a coder in that position, I certainly wouldn't. It would have been like asking to have CB blacks be a different breed than lineage blacks just because it was hard to catch them 2 years ago.

You're making assumptions about technical details.

[cyradis4]

That, to me, seems convoluted and not something that I personally see TJ being inclined to put the effort into. As a coder in that position, I certainly wouldn't. It would have been like asking to have CB blacks be a different breed than lineage blacks just because it was hard to catch them 2 years ago.

Actually no, its not like asking CB Blacks to have different ratios. Why? Because CB Blacks can be gotten on a regular basis in the Biomes, based on the ratios. I should know: I've got 16 of the buggers, and miss-click them regularly. And I know someone who has 100 CB Blacks, and another friend who is trying to beat that number.

 

CB Prizes are NOT in the Cave. They can be won ONLY from Special Events. And they are owned by a very small fraction of the userbase, which creates an "elite" and all the problems that go with said elite. Because of how the CBs are created, Prize dragons are not like other dragons. Just like Guardians of Nature are not like other dragons.

 

So if Prizes are by definition not like most dragons, then why would you have to treat them like they are?

 

And TJ found the idea of having CB Prizes multi-clutch 4 eggs, 2nd gens 3 eggs, 3rd gens 2 eggs, and 4th and higher not multi-clutch "interesting" in the previous thread, so he's at least willing to listen to generational based thinking.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Irys]

@TJ: Yes. I am making assumptions about technical details on a game whose details only one person actually has even a tenuous understanding of. That's pretty much all that anyone, save you, can do when proposing changes to the technical details of that game. I apologize for misunderstanding your posts in the past regarding the ratios.

 

 

@Cyradis: I said blacks because they were nigh impossible to get a few years ago. That has to do with the first point I made. They are not hard to get NOW. They were not hard to get 6 years ago. But the problem was similar and the same request could have been made then as it is now. CB blacks used to be stupidly hard to get because the userbase created a false rarity.

 

I picked them as an example because the issues are the closest examples we have. It's not the ideal example, obviously.

 

Prizes are not rare. TJ has pointed that out. We can see that just scrolling through the trading threads. And regardless of ratios, 2nd gens will always be rarer than every subsequent generation.

 

And my opinion still stands that it's a convoluted change to compensate for the userbase's breeding habits. And it's my opinion that if prizes were not bred wantonly, perhaps the lower generations produce better.

 

At any rate, it was something to consider. To chew on and mull over. Not to get all flustered over, and then nitpick the insignificant parts.

[Fiona]

You can't ask people not to breed their tinsels and shimmers though, no matter how long their lineage or how messy. It's their dragon to do as they like with.

 

The simple truth is that no matter what TJ does with the ratios there's never going to be "enough" 2nd gens to meet the demand. They're always going to be in high demand.

[Mondat]

What would you do if all Prize owners decided not to breed their dragons? It's their Prize.

More 2nd-gens for the community? What if I don`t want to share my Prize with strangers?

 

Shall I be honest? What I see is a thread for people who just want to have access to low-gen Prizes or who want to use their dragons more efficiently as trading fodder because prize winners, trader for 2nd-gens and low-gen prize owners are directly addressed - nothing else. You can find "the increase of general breeding success of all prizes" in the last sentence, as an accessory, no?

 

My lowest gen was a 5th-gen Silver Shimmer which I got as a gift. All other Tinsels and Shimmer were higher gens and I got them for free or from the AP. I got some refusals or "no interest" but I have also other dragon breeds to breed and I have a female and male of every prize colour so I am/was satisfied. I didn't win the raffle and was a newbie anyway so I take what I can get, naturally?

Luckily I did get an offer from a prize owner for something I had, all of a sudden, for a 2nd-gen Prize. I was on no list and after 4 Shimmerkin I received my 2nd-gen.

What if it doesn't breed true? Well, I also have an Albino which doesn't produce Albinos with the mate I want (some eggs vanished, "no interest" not visible). But I am determined to get an Albino out of him no matter how long it will take

 

I haven't gotten on the Thuwed lists and I have to deal with it.

Do I go to TJ and demand his dragons to be able to breed twice a week so the lists are open more often? No.

 

Also, if all Prizes would breed better I guess the AP would be overfloating with messy and inbred high-gen ones, which I don't want. We already have the situation that perfect two breed lineaged high-gen Prizes aren`t desired and valueable and people only breed them for requests.

 

(If I sound harsh or inappropriate, I am sorry.)

 

PS:

The simple truth is that no matter what TJ does with the ratios there's never going to be "enough" 2nd gens to meet the demand. They're always going to be in high demand.

YEP I think the same!

 

[TJ09]

@TJ: Yes. I am making assumptions about technical details on a game whose details only one person actually has even a tenuous understanding of. That's pretty much all that anyone, save you, can do when proposing changes to the technical details of that game. I apologize for misunderstanding your posts in the past regarding the ratios.

My point was that I'm the only one that can judge how difficult a given change is, so trying to argue that you think something might be difficult to implement isn't really a valid reason to disagree with an idea.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

What would you do if all Prize owners decided not to breed their dragons? It's their Prize.

More 2nd-gens for the community? What if I don`t want to share my Prize with strangers?

 

Shall I be honest? What I see is a thread for people who just want to have access to low-gen Prizes or who want to use their dragons more efficiently as trading fodder because prize winners, trader for 2nd-gens and low-gen prize owners are directly addressed - nothing else. You can find "the increase of general breeding success of all prizes" in the last sentence, as an accessory, no?

 

[...]

 

Also, if all Prizes would breed better I guess the AP would be overfloating with messy and inbred high-gen ones, which I don't want. We already have the situation that perfect two breed lineaged high-gen Prizes aren`t desired and valueable and people only breed them for requests.

I'll say it again, and again, and again - it's a game about collecting virtual dragons. There shouldn't be a strong 'have not' versus 'have' division. There shouldn't be a super elite segment. IMO, there should never have been super exclusive prizes to begin with. Every step a collecting game takes towards making some things impossible to collect (or really close to it) is a step backwards, a step towards all the other adoptables sites that I came to DC to avoid, where every other week has a new limited-time-only dragon, where new players can never reach the level of the older, where there are certain beautiful collectibles that no amount of hard work can ensure you will receive. This has hardly happened on several fronts, unfortunately, but I resist it where I can because I think it hurts the game.

 

That is just my opinion, of course, but there it is.

 

I want to see low gens more accessible for use. Do I consider them more important than high gens? Yes, because I build lineages. Lineages mean squat to some, but to others they are a huge part of the game, something that has kept interest when the challenge of "collect all sprites" was long ago easily achieved. No amount of fiddling, wishing, or hoping is going to let me turn a Bronze x Waterhorse 10g stairstep into a 5g Bronze x Sunsong checker. If there is a particular line I want created, that no one else has ever paid to have started and no owner has ever seen fit to start, then no amount of work on my end can make it happen. It puts a damper on what we can do with two really lovely sets of dragons, creates a super elite (even if they don't wish to be), and skews the trade threads. Overall, it's quite frustrating for a game where the rarest things used to be far more obtainable than this - the right level of challenging but possible. Anyone could make Neglecteds, with hard work and patience, and those in turn almost always traded for CB Metals. Hollies multiclutched and thus there was a chance to nab one without having to be in the know with people or try desperately to trade, and even should one fail in the attempt, it was a limited time opportunity and could be put out of mind fairly quickly.

 

To respond more directly:

1) Increasing the breeding rates would slightly devalue Prizes, which should compensate for the higher number AND make 2gs more affordable to many

2) TJ himself stated in the other thread that the idea of staggering multiclutching by generation was interesting, suggesting he'd be open to something similar for breeding rates (although of course only he can confirm this - just working with what little he did say). Plus, as you said, all prizes breeding better might lead to a lot of messies / high gens floating around...

3) Speaking of messies - even if breeding rates were increased, unless it was drastically so, I don't think it'd be a big issue. I've been hunting the AP a lot lately, and was surprised to find even messy or high gen Tinsels / Shimmers are almost always kept once grabbed (I know they were messy because I checked the codes after, and I know they were kept, because 10+ minutes of extra hunting never saw them pop up again)

 

tl;dr lineages are important for many of us, I think the more we're limited in our options in a collecting game the less fun it is - especially when those limits also come with a definite feel that there's an elite group versus a regular group - and increasing breeding success is still one of the easier, less invasive ways I think things could be more balanced out.

Edited February 6, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[whitebaron]

The more I read about it, the more I think that increased breeding chances are not the way.

TJ has pretty much confirmed that prizes are one of the most commonly bred things, and have very high population levels, which I always suspected, but had nothing to back it up.

 

Assuming TJ ups the chances of a produced egg being a shiny: People will start complaining about the lack of kin being produced, making checkers very hard to do. 2g kin will then demand as much if not higher prices than prizes at the moment.

 

Assuming TJ ups the chances to an egg being produced at all: as this improves all gens, it would be a temporary relieve only. Once we have caught up, it will be the same.

 

So any solution that tried to only fix shimmer/tinsel ratios vs. the rest will not succeed in the way you want them to.

 

 

@TJ: concerning breeding, I got a question regarding the sweet spot: how high a percentage would you see as ideal, in a perfect world? To me, it would be something that pans out to 50% chance of an egg, 50% chance for each breed. (33% if hybrid, less if,there are possible alts)

[Fuzzbucket]

HOW ABOUT....

 

Making prize dragons like the hybrid UVs, where there is a chance that their prize-fail offspring might produce an egg of either parent ?

 

Throws new spanner in TJ's works for y'all....

[purplehaze]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand the obsession with 2nd gens. I am a collector and a breeder also. I have some beautiful sprites on my scroll -- and even a few pretty EG lineages from Tinsels and Shimmers, although I will admit those are harder to do. As I see it there is only one very specific kind of lineage (the checker) that cannot be made without multiple 2nd gen Prizes. I am perfectly content to build the kind of lineages that I can build instead of obsessing about the one that I can't!

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand the obsession with 2nd gens. I am a collector and a breeder also. I have some beautiful sprites on my scroll -- and even a few pretty EG lineages from Tinsels and Shimmers, although I will admit those are harder to do. As I see it there is only one very specific kind of lineage (the checker) that cannot be made without multiple 2nd gen Prizes. I am perfectly content to build the kind of lineages that I can build instead of obsessing about the one that I can't!

I like you ! And I DO agree ! I have some extraordinary prize arrows and so on already:

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/hKyZv

http://dragcave.net/lineage/rw6u3

and this fabulous gift:

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/8TTpH

 

POOF second gens ! These are more fun

 

 

 

[cyradis4]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand the obsession with 2nd gens. I am a collector and a breeder also. I have some beautiful sprites on my scroll -- and even a few pretty EG lineages from Tinsels and Shimmers, although I will admit those are harder to do. As I see it there is only one very specific kind of lineage (the checker) that cannot be made without multiple 2nd gen Prizes. I am perfectly content to build the kind of lineages that I can build instead of obsessing about the one that I can't!

These are the even gen lineages I've created / traded with people to get with Tinsels and Shimmers:

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/rFudL

http://dragcave.net/lineage/f98fs

http://dragcave.net/lineage/7rjmU

http://dragcave.net/lineage/LS1TO

http://dragcave.net/lineage/ihaql

 

They are brutally hard to find. I've been activly seeking them out, and these are all that I've found.

 

I'm working with someone who owns several 2nd gens, and we're planning on working on several even gen lineages together. But again: That *requires* 2nd gens. Or access to 2nd gens.

 

With the Horse lineage, I've had zero luck with almost all CB owners I've contacted. They've been willing, but unable, to add even a horse fail in anything less than months or years. I'm on several lists, though. I've had excellent luck 2nd gen owners, but they can be hard to find.

 

That's why I'm in such favor of more 2nd gens, period. More 2nd gens means more people have the various crosses, and that creates MANY more opportunities for someone like me to track down said 2nd gen owners, and work out some sort of arrangement for a 3rd gen (which I can sometimes afford). That lets me create a lot more lineages than I would otherwise have been able to.

 

 

Edit:

Even gen lineages are the only lineages I bother with. The other lineages? Too simple-minded. Even gens, especially those like this which have non-checker patterns (http://dragcave.net/lineage/WoQJm), have challenge. But they require that the 2nd gens exist for them to be made.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited February 6, 2014 by cyradis4

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand the obsession with 2nd gens. I am a collector and a breeder also. I have some beautiful sprites on my scroll -- and even a few pretty EG lineages from Tinsels and Shimmers, although I will admit those are harder to do. As I see it there is only one very specific kind of lineage (the checker) that cannot be made without multiple 2nd gen Prizes. I am perfectly content to build the kind of lineages that I can build instead of obsessing about the one that I can't!

It's not even about checkers (although I do love them). There are issues from just how hard it is to get one 2nd gen as well.

 

Let's say you really, really, really adore Whiptails and Gold Shimmerscales. In your opinion, best lineage idea in the whole game. Well, your only chance of getting one is to either hope a CB owner decides to breed one, or that someone else will decide to pay them to. Whereas if you could manage to get a 2nd gen you could get the line started on your own.

 

Next, let's say someone does start a Gold Shimmerscale x Whiptail line. You hope they turn it into a Gold x Whiptail x Gold Shimmerscale faux checker, but they never breed anything but stairsteps. Even spirals would be more interesting to you, but again, it's just not happening and the only way to ensure it does is to pay for a 2nd gen.

 

It also has something to do with looks. The longer a lineage gets, the more subject it is to someone deadlining things along the way, for once pretty names to get turned to "WHY U NO BREED EVAR," for the length of the "stairs" to vary wildly and make it look unattractive. I find this far more pretty than this because of that wiggle-room. I also find this prettier than this because the line is still short enough that the image sizes don't start shrinking.

 

Last but not least, love Prizes or hate them, the fact is they're so scarce right now that they totally control the market. It is exceedingly hard to find things like CB Metals and Neglecteds and even other low gen Prizes up for trade for anything but low gen Prizes, and that keeps all the rarest things locked into a very small portion of the userbase. If someone can offer 4 CB Metals for a 2g and get no interest, it suggests the proportion of Prizes in relation to everyone else is just way, way too small for them to be sanely obtainable at all (which, again, I think is more related to breeding success of the low gens than people demanding the price). For the price of four of the cave's rarest natural dragons you really ought to be able to afford just about anything at almost any given time, and that's far from the truth where prizes are concerned.

 

Don't get me wrong--there are plenty of other things to keep me entertained on DC, and by and large I do work with more obtainable and equally pretty things. But I still find DC's increasing exclusivity (Discontinueds, past CB Holidays, Snow Angel colors, and now Prizes) to be a bad sign. I play collecting games like this and Pokemon because with enough work and effort you really can get just about everything. But right now it's easier (and relies less on the willingness of others) to get the rarest Pokemon than it is to get your average 2nd gen Prize. And again, I don't think it's entirely due to owners setting prices too high--I think it's that once lists are filled they move so slowly that the market is essentially closed for years after that initial rush of the raffle, which is frustrating. Of course no one's going to let you on a full list, even for all the CB Metals in the world, if they've been struggling to empty the darn thing for a year plus.

Edited February 6, 2014 by angelicdragonpuppy

[cyradis4]

Don't get me wrong--there are plenty of other things to keep me entertained on DC, and by and large I do work with more obtainable and equally pretty things. But I still find DC's increasing exclusivity (Discontinueds, past CB Holidays, Snow Angel colors, and now Prizes) to be a bad sign. I play collecting games like this and Pokemon because with enough work and effort you really can get just about everything. But right now it's easier (and relies less on the willingness of others) to get the rarest Pokemon than it is to get your average 2nd gen Prize. And again, I don't think it's entirely due to owners setting prices too high--I think it's that once lists are filled they move so slowly that the market is essentially closed for years after that initial rush of the raffle, which is frustrating. Of course no one's going to let you on a full list, even for all the CB Metals in the world, if they've been struggling to empty the darn thing for a year plus.

This. Totally this.

 

All the CB owners I've had contact with have asked for reasonable stuff. They just don't have clear lists.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Naruhina_94]

It's not even about checkers (although I do love them). There are issues from just how hard it is to get one 2nd gen as well.

 

Let's say you really, really, really adore Whiptails and Gold Shimmerscales. In your opinion, best lineage idea in the whole game. Well, your only chance of getting one is to either hope a CB owner decides to breed one, or that someone else will decide to pay them to. Whereas if you could manage to get a 2nd gen you could get the line started on your own.

 

Next, let's say someone does start a Gold Shimmerscale x Whiptail line. You hope they turn it into a Gold x Whiptail x Gold Shimmerscale faux checker, but they never breed anything but stairsteps. Even spirals would be more interesting to you, but again, it's just not happening and the only way to ensure it does is to pay for a 2nd gen.

 

It also has something to do with looks. The longer a lineage gets, the more subject it is to someone deadlining things along the way, for once pretty names to get turned to "WHY U NO BREED EVAR," for the length of the "stairs" to vary wildly and make it look unattractive. I find this far more pretty than this because of that wiggle-room. I also find this prettier than either because the line is still short enough that the image sizes don't start shrinking.

 

Last but not least, love Prizes or hate them, the fact is they're so scarce right now that they totally control the market. It is exceedingly hard to find things like CB Metals and Neglecteds and even other low gen Prizes up for trade for anything but low gen Prizes, and that keeps all the rarest things locked into a very small portion of the userbase. If someone can offer 4 CB Metals for a 2g and get no interest, it suggests the proportion of Prizes in relation to everyone else is just way, way too small for them to be sanely obtainable at all (which, again, I think is more related to breeding success of the low gens than people demanding the price). For the price of four of the cave's rarest natural dragons you really ought to be able to afford just about anything at almost any given time, and that's far from the truth where prizes are concerned.

 

Don't get me wrong--there are plenty of other things to keep me entertained on DC, and by and large I do work with more obtainable and equally pretty things. But I still find DC's increasing exclusivity (Discontinueds, past CB Holidays, Snow Angel colors, and now Prizes) to be a bad sign. I play collecting games like this and Pokemon because with enough work and effort you really can get just about everything. But right now it's easier (and relies less on the willingness of others) to get the rarest Pokemon than it is to get your average 2nd gen Prize. And again, I don't think it's entirely due to owners setting prices too high--I think it's that once lists are filled they move so slowly that the market is essentially closed for years after that initial rush of the raffle, which is frustrating. Of course no one's going to let you on a full list, even for all the CB Metals in the world, if they've been struggling to empty the darn thing for a year plus.

I perfectly agre with everything you said I had just a little question: do you think that improve the Prize Breeding ratios would help more than do more Raffles themselves?

Even if CBs Shimmer and Tinsel would produce more Shiny eggs their wouldn't be less requested (even if more easy to trade obviously) so they risk to become the only dragon breedded.

I have 6 CB waters, but I don't breed them with all other dragon breeds just to have their 2nd gens because I can do a 2nd gen water in any moment. I have no pressure to try to have them because they don't depend by the others.

If there would be more raffles maybe CBs could diffuse more and do the same, being less required and so more easy to breed.

 

However I still think that we need at least a little increase of the breeding ratios of the CBs prizes, because the market is too blocked at the moment.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Naruhina_94

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I perfectly agre with everything you said I had just a little question: do you think that improve the Prize Breeding ratios would help more than do more Raffles themselves?

Even if CBs Shimmer and Tinsel would produce more Shiny eggs their wouldn't be less requested (even if more easy to trade obviously) so they risk to become the only dragon breedded.

I have 6 CB waters, but I don't breed them with all other dragon breeds just to have their 2nd gens because I can do a 2nd gen water in any moment. I have no pressure to try to have them because they don't depend by the others.

If there would be more raffles maybe CBs could diffuse more and do the same, being less required and so more easy to breed.

 

However I still think that we need at least a little increase of the breeding ratios of the CBs prizes, because the market is too blocked at the moment.

I'm inclined to think that better breeding would do more good than would more prizes (although of course a combination of both would be best). TJ himself said that, in terms of sheer numbers, more Prizes were bred than some commons this year. With so many around, the odds are against new ones being able to breed very well, so they need some help to take the pressure off.

 

Although... perhaps it's the wrong side of the issue that's being addressed. Perhaps some commons are just too common. Things like Tinsel x Terrae and Tinsel x Sunset still produce shinies fairly regularly, but combos of even Black Teas x other fairly common things (ex: Ridgewings) fail to yield eggs of anything but the Black Teas for a ridiculously high number of breedings. Someone here showed an Albino x Royal Crimson pairing that had produced a dozen plus Royal Crimsons and no Albino yet. That's... ridiculous, and perhaps more of an issue than the general Prize breeding rates themselves. In theory everything will balance out eventually, but if people still are excited to breed to new releases - and take six months per shiny accordingly - that's still a sad scenario. There is a big difference between common and "PLEASE BREED ANYTHING, ANYTHING ELSE, YOU RABBITS." On the other hand, asking for ratio changes usually doesn't do any good - the only reason I bothered suggesting it for Prizes at all is because they're a unique case.