Improve Prize Breeding Ratios

[AnanoKimi]

Telling people to stop offering fortunes (or to stop breeding shinies) just... doesn't work. If 99% of people complied, it would still only take one person breaking the "rule" to go and profit and get everything else while all the honest folks miss out. The only way to balance it is, in my opinion, to have more supply to meet the demand. Nobody's paying three CB Metals for a Neglected because, as rare as they are, there's sufficient amounts that people know they can find someone else willing to trade 1:1. Add more low gen Prizes to the mix, things balance, people won't feel obligated to offer crazy prices because they know someone else will sell cheaper. But right now, as far as I can see, the trend goes:

 

1) New prizes distributed. Lists fill up immediately for 90% of prize winners.

 

2) Prizes breed like crap. Lists take years to empty out. No one else can get on prize lists in the meanwhile, but people still desperately try by offering exceedingly crazy prices in the hopes of a chance.

 

3) After seeing how crappy prizes breed, prize owners become reluctant to trade them for anything but the rarest of rare things. If they already have their fill of CB Metals by then, as many do, the rarest of the rare is only other prize swaps or 2gs from spriter's alts. Everyone else is excluded from the lists. People again offer crazy high prices hoping for a chance all the same.

 

The only things that can shake up that system are adding more prizes, which seems unlikely to happen, or ensuring prizes breed better, which helps ensure lists don't stagnate and there's more to go around in general.

 

There is a difference between being frustrated with an aspect of the game and being truly stressed over it. The fact that I'm still here and glutting on pretty commons after three years of prizes shows I'm not morbidly disenchanted with DC. Still, to me an ideal collecting game is one where everyone has a reasonably good chance of getting everything with patience and hard work (and, believe it or not, most rares do fall into this category--anyone can make NDs, they tend to trade 1:1 for CB Metals, and even without you can find reasonable trades for or even catch CB Metals if you put the time in). Prizes have changed the game away from that into a system in which the top tier is decided by sheer, one-in-a-few-thousand luck. I dislike this, as I dislike almost all exclusivity (I regularly campaign for the re-release of past Holidays as CBs, and I still sorely miss Old Pinks / Frills), and so when the chance comes up, yes, I will argue for changes.

 

Because while it's right that you can never make anyone 100% happy, I still feel the current prize system has done more to hurt DC than any other change ever has.

Again, all I see is the way people are dealing with the situation. Its not so much asking people to not breed shinies, but simply to have some consideration. I know their pretty, I know their rare, but constantly demanding something itsn't gonna make it better. Sadly DC doesn't work like real life where enough demand = enough money input to create more of what is being demanded. Giving someone 5 CB Golds and 2 CB silvers wont make prizes spit out more babies. Like red said, we need to be realistic. If breeding them every week causes them to stop breeding at all for some time and everyone seems to know that you need to give the dragon a break between weeks of breeding if you want them to breed anywhere near decently, then why don't people understand that constantly throwing high demands out towards prize breeders and winners won't make the situation better?

 

The fact that I've managed to snatch a few shimmers and tinsels and have a nice little line, about a third of a page of them shows they bred decently at some point. Out of all of them I can get a prize baby every so often, and gift them out. I still feel that if people calmed down and metal miners, and just the community in general had a little more consideration, we could improve this situation from both ends.

 

You want fair? its not fair that the prize breeder end has to be the one to out put more just because the community end can't take a break from prizes for a bit. and even if a few decided not to oblige and still trade crazy amounts of rares for shinies, and even if some breeders didn't oblige and still accepted or demanded those offers for their babies, if a majority actually took the time to give prizes a break and focus on other things for a little while the situation could improve.

 

Letting them breed a little better would be nice, but it won't do squat if people keep demanding them like they need the dang pixels to live. I still think both ends need to be able to cooperate. One ends needs to try and produce a little more when they can and give back to the community, the other end needs to cool it with the demands and try to give the prize end a break every now and then, let them breathe, and then maybe things can get better.

 

EDIT:

 

Also on that last part about campaigning for Holidays as CB releases, I don't really agree on that. I won't get into it here, its not the appropriate place but... Their supposed to be limited, I like that. Even if I can't get a CB, I can get a bred 2g or higher and really even getting that is a challenge. Some things should just be left to rest. I miss frills too but things happen for a reason, you gotta let it go. Can't have everything in life my friend, something will just forever be out of our reach.

Edited March 6, 2014 by AnanoKimi

[Red2111]

Telling people to stop offering fortunes (or to stop breeding shinies) just... doesn't work. If 99% of people complied, it would still only take one person breaking the "rule" to go and profit and get everything else while all the honest folks miss out. The only way to balance it is, in my opinion, to have more supply to meet the demand. Nobody's paying three CB Metals for a Neglected because, as rare as they are, there's sufficient amounts that people know they can find someone else willing to trade 1:1. Add more low gen Prizes to the mix, things balance, people won't feel obligated to offer crazy prices because they know someone else will sell cheaper. But right now, as far as I can see, the trend goes:

 

1) New prizes distributed. Lists fill up immediately for 90% of prize winners.

 

2) Prizes breed like crap. Lists take years to empty out. No one else can get on prize lists in the meanwhile, but people still desperately try by offering exceedingly crazy prices in the hopes of a chance.

 

3) After seeing how crappy prizes breed, prize owners become reluctant to trade them for anything but the rarest of rare things. If they already have their fill of CB Metals by then, as many do, the rarest of the rare is only other prize swaps or 2gs from spriter's alts. Everyone else is excluded from the lists. People again offer crazy high prices hoping for a chance all the same.

 

The only things that can shake up that system are adding more prizes, which seems unlikely to happen, or ensuring prizes breed better, which helps ensure lists don't stagnate and there's more to go around in general.

 

There is a difference between being frustrated with an aspect of the game and being truly stressed over it. The fact that I'm still here and glutting on pretty commons after three years of prizes shows I'm not morbidly disenchanted with DC. Still, to me an ideal collecting game is one where everyone has a reasonably good chance of getting everything with patience and hard work (and, believe it or not, most rares do fall into this category--anyone can make NDs, they tend to trade 1:1 for CB Metals, and even without you can find reasonable trades for or even catch CB Metals if you put the time in). Prizes have changed the game away from that into a system in which the top tier is decided by sheer, one-in-a-few-thousand luck. I dislike this, as I dislike almost all exclusivity (I regularly campaign for the re-release of past Holidays as CBs, and I still sorely miss Old Pinks / Frills), and so when the chance comes up, yes, I will argue for changes.

 

Because while it's true that you can never make everyone 100% happy, I still feel the current prize system has done more to hurt DC than any other change ever has.

i disagree ADP. i've talked to a good number of CB Prize owners and read their comments on the threads and seen their actiosn when it comes to how they treat their prize babies and trades.

 

i dont think you give the prize owners (a lot of which agree theres a problem with the market and hate seeing how their prize babies effect it) enough credit.

 

look at it this way. if 99% of 2G prizes are going for 4 CB Black hatchies or 2 CB Golds; why would someone offer more than that on a curent trade?

 

if i have 4 CB Golds, why would i offer all 4 on one trade, when i can offer 2 CB's on 2 seperate trades and get 2 seperate 2G's?

 

and also, if i pay less for my 2G i'm less likely to ask for an arm and a legg for my 2G's offspring, so the price decrease trickles down.

 

sure, there will be rebels who still offer absurd things for the 2G's, but the price of 2G's in this game is driven by what people offer. the first time someone who offers an 3 CB golds for a 2G and finds out that others are getting their 2G's for 2 CB Golds, they'll stop offering 3 CB golds on 2G's.

 

the entire outlook of "well someone else wont follow this rule so it wont work" is self fullfilling prophecy and a lack of trust in an otherwise generous and giving community. i mean, as many of us that stop paying arm and leggs for 2G prizes, i believe there will also be CB prize owners that will make a point of not accepting absurd offers (especially once they have their fill of CB rares) to make a point. and if most of use stop seeking out 2G prize lines and are happy with longer lines, then eventually the price of 2G's will decrease because the demand for them will decrease.

 

i'm happy with my 4G lines, when shimmers were released the highest tinsel i was able to trade for was a 4G, so it never even entered my mind to try for a 3G and i never entertained trying for a 2G.

 

i have a few 3G lines yes, and i love them dearly and those are more than good enough and unexpected achievements. woudl i turn down a 2G? heck now, but i also dont actively seek one out because i'm realistic about what i can achieve in this game and i'm happy with what i can get.

 

i dont need a 2G! if i want a certain lineage, i'm happy enough tracking it down and trading for a generation i can afford. because if i'm tracking down a lineage i'm doing so because i find it appealing, not because i can trade it to get something else.

 

 

also, flooding the cave with low gens will not alter the trend you pointed out. TJ doubled the amount of existing lines this last raffle and you know how the trend was effected

 

1 - the lists filled up just as fast

 

2 - prizes started breeding like crap way sooner than they should imo (liekly becuase we're closer to hitting the breeding cap)

 

3 - people will start looking to higher gens and the value of those will increase (i recall a time when you couldn't get a 5G tinsel for less than a swap or CB Gold)

 

 

btw, ensuring prizes breed better IS adding more prizes to the breeding pool. i agree, tinsels and shimmers breeding badly (especially this close to the raffle) is not a good thing and needs to be looked at. but imo, this is because use users are OVERBREEDING THEM.

 

either way you look at it, thsi problem is user created; mainly because we set the value absurdly high for 2G's. you want to fix the problem, you change the mentality and intriinsic value, you dont flood the market to artifically inflate the price and collapse the value of every other dragon in the cave.

 

 

whcih is why i agree with AnanoKimi's idea of a longer CD period for breeding as it addresses the problem of over breeding whcih is causing the poor breeding in the first place and for TJ to rework the ratois so higher gens dont effect lower gens and so tinsels dont effect shimmers.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Red2111

[whitebaron]

correcting some mistakes:

 

- shimmers as a whole breed way better than tinsels ever did. Their ratios are not interconnected.

- 2 cb golds is not that much, if you really look at it. Its two dragons that are rare (drop like 50 times a day) for one dragon that can never drop. Add in, that there are less cb prizes than cb metallics drop in a week, and i dont think at ALL that multi-metal offers are unreasonable - they are just not what most people can afford, but in terms or rarity IT IS fair.

- shimmers did not start breeding worse after the new prizes were given out. they already were badly breeding, why should they stop just because some new have been entered into the gene pool? I don't think you understand how ratios work.

 

Finally: If users created that problem, then users could solve it on their own. Which is not possible, since there are less cb gold prizes than i have cb golds. How is that supposed to be fixed by the userbase? That scarcity was arbitrarily introduced by the raffles. While I have no trouble with that (i like high value trades being available), I still disagree on "users should just change their attitudes" - Because thats just a polite way of saying "I dont care, so shut up!"

[Fuzzbucket]

correcting some mistakes:

 

- shimmers as a whole breed way better than tinsels ever did. Their ratios are not interconnected.

I don't think you understand how ratios work.

 

All the ratios are interconnected. The ratios are between the various breeds.

[whitebaron]

All the ratios are interconnected. The ratios are between the various breeds.

please read the post i referred to.

red said that tinsels breed bad because their ratios are directly linked to how shimmers do - thats not true. if anything, a high success rate of shimmers would help more tins being produced later. which was not the case, not at all, last year.

[cyradis4]

Finally: If users created that problem, then users could solve it on their own. Which is not possible, since there are less cb gold prizes than i have cb golds. How is that supposed to be fixed by the userbase? That scarcity was arbitrarily introduced by the raffles. While I have no trouble with that (i like high value trades being available), I still disagree on "users should just change their attitudes" - Because thats just a polite way of saying "I dont care, so shut up!"

This statement is so true. I'm getting sick and tired of people telling others to change their game play.

 

Red2111:

Stroll through the Metal Trades thread for a few pages, or a few dozen, or a few hundred. What you will find is trade after trade after trade offering a half dozen or more CB Golds, CB Silvers, and CB Coppers and asking for only 2nd gen Prizes or CB Golds, Silvers, and Coppers that are younger than the ones they have.

 

What you won't see is people offering 2nd gen Prizes. I think, in all the time I've looked through that thread, I've seen exactly 1 2nd gen Prize dragon offered, and that was recently.

 

Or check the signatures of the older Prize owners. What you will see time and again is "lists closed! Don't contact me!", or "lists open only to 2nd gen Prizes, or xxx special dragon". Even most of the brand new CB Prize owners have lists that are closed already. If that is, they have a forum account and have advertised that they own a prize. Many of the CB Prizes went to persons unknown, and they aren't bred for the public (or they would be known).

 

Yes, if you can find an open list, most CB Prize owners are reasonable. But please note that huge if: IF you can find someone with a list open.

 

There are between 4,000 and 10,000 (or higher!) active players on DC. There are 240 CB Prizes, period. At least 3 of them are on scrolls that are now burned. Virtually the entirety of the Year 2 CB Tinsel crop isn't bred at all any more, and many have never been bred. All 5 of the Year 2 CB Gold Tinsels aren't bred anymore.

 

There are exactly 5 known CB Gold Tinsel males, and 4 CB Gold Tinsels with genders unknown (in short: they aren't bred for trades, or they'd be known). Of the 5 known male Gold Tinsels, 1 has never been bred, and 1 is too young to know how it will be bred. All of the other three are active. There are not enough CB Gold Tinsel males in existence to create a 5th gen checker egg, period. End of Story. Can't be done, because they just don't exist. Even if all owners were willing to breed. Which they manifestly are not. There aren't even enough CB male Gold Tinsels active to breed a 4th gen checker!

 

The CB Prizes aren't rare. They aren't very rare. They aren't even extremely rare. They are unobtainable rare. And the reason the 2nd gens are so rare? Is because the CBs they come from are so vanishingly rare. Even increase the CB Prize breeding rates so they produce a Prize every other breeding won't change that. 2nd gens will still be vanishingly rare, and will still go for multiple CB metals, if that's what the owner wants.

 

The difference? With better breeding rates on the CBs, more people will be able to get the 2nd gens, so the market will no longer be stagnant. There's been no talk of decreasing the breeding rates of the higher gens. And before people go whining about how increasing the 2nd gen population will affect the breeding ratios of the high gens:

Per TJ, more prizes (of all generations) are bred in a year than there are of some commons. Adding another 100 or so per year, or even 200 per year (which is all the time they count to the ratio for) is a drop in the bucket compared to how many are bred, in total, in that 1 year. That small drop won't noticeably shift the breeding rates for the high gens. But it will noticeably shift the balance of the trading market, and the 2nd gen Prizes will go from an unobtainable dream needing more luck than stars in the sky to something you can get, if you work really really hard at it and get some luck.

 

C4.

[Fuzzbucket]

please read the post i referred to.

red said that tinsels breed bad because their ratios are directly linked to how shimmers do - thats not true. if anything, a high success rate of shimmers would help more tins being produced later. which was not the case, not at all, last year.

I did.

 

All ratios are interconnected, though. ALL ratios.

[AnanoKimi]

I've never been against increasing their ratio, if anything it will be a heaven sent. To finally be able to toss eggs at people would be lovely but as it is I can. I really want to and those prize owners/breeders that are stingy make the rest (or the few) that are trying hard to change this problem look bad.

 

That does not change the fact that even the good ones are being pressured into fixing this problem. that the entirety of DC is openly and loudly aching for one, and the more we breed them, the less we get. I've tried since almost as soon as mine grew up with no avail. Its frustrating to not be able to appease these people who are so hungry clawing at your feet looking at you like a monster for not being able to provide.

 

We are being called bullies, we are being called greedy as well, but its stressful for everyone to want to either shut down prizes or toss something that can be fixed differently into the cave.

 

The extreme demand for them is absolutely ridiculous yet understandable. That does not change the fact that it needs to calm down. Yes they are rare. Yes they are desirable. Yes everyone wants one, but that does not excuse the pressure and outright rage people have towards all prize breeders. Not all of us are stingy, greedy, metal grubbing people.

 

That is why I said BOTH sides need to reach a compromise that alleviates some of the stress for users and breeders but also allows prize winners to keep their shinies how they like them, exclusive.

 

Many suggestions have been made such as allowing them for HM after x amount of years, multi clutch, and this suggestion to increase ratios. I think at this point all of us in terms of ratios are screaming "Please TJ just do it please! Just a little increase, not too much just a nudge!" and I'm with you on that. I am not trying to shut up the user base, I'm not trying to call you whiners, complainers, sore losers. I simply want some of this user caused madness to stop. For people to find some control and some peace. I want to try and fix this without being pointed at as one of the many poor breeders that use these dragons for their own gain. This community has shown it is nothing but giving, kind, friendly, and generous. I want that to continue.

 

I still say these dragons should be put as an HM prize after a certain number of years, this will definitely increase how many 2nd gens are produced so long as breeders pace themselves. Giving them a higher cool down means that there will always be a dragon not breeding while one is. Multi clutch allows a productive batch even if the cool down is increased allowing for more prize eggs to spread around DC through the AP. Finally, it is the communities job and the prize breeders jobs to give back and gift them or trade them to the less fortunate. Users must stop their self service and try to give back to those who cannot obtain one or are new.

 

Everything can be fixed, it can. Without any rash decision of "No more prizes" or "Throw em to the cave!" A formula can be built from there but first and foremost we want Multiclutch and increased ratios for prize eggs. everything else will follow.

[Red2111]

correcting some mistakes:

 

- shimmers as a whole breed way better than tinsels ever did. Their ratios are not interconnected.

- 2 cb golds is not that much, if you really look at it. Its two dragons that are rare (drop like 50 times a day) for one dragon that can never drop. Add in, that there are less cb prizes than cb metallics drop in a week, and i dont think at ALL that multi-metal offers are unreasonable - they are just not what most people can afford, but in terms or rarity IT IS fair.

- shimmers did not start breeding worse after the new prizes were given out. they already were badly breeding, why should they stop just because some new have been entered into the gene pool? I don't think you understand how ratios work.

 

Finally: If users created that problem, then users could solve it on their own. Which is not possible, since there are less cb gold prizes than i have cb golds. How is that supposed to be fixed by the userbase? That scarcity was arbitrarily introduced by the raffles. While I have no trouble with that (i like high value trades being available), I still disagree on "users should just change their attitudes" - Because thats just a polite way of saying "I dont care, so shut up!"

 

too many points to address so im using color coding

 

blue - you forget that when Shimmers were introduced they doubled the total number of prize lines. also, iirc, a lot of shimmerr owners were complaining about their shimmer breeding to begin with, then a month or two in, they started breeding well. check the "bad breeding shimmer" thread in the GD section.

 

red - i was using 2 CB Golds as an arbitrary number, which is obvious since they aren't goign for and never have gone for only 2 CB Golds. the POINT i was making wasn't about whats offered on the trade, just that value is user created and dependent on all offers not just 1. dont argue over an arbitrary number

 

purple - i didn't claim they started breeding bad since the raffle. i said that its not good for them to be breeding so bad this close to the raffle.

 

orange - telling people that we're the ones creating the problem (by over breeding and being willing to offer such high prices for 2G's) is not a polite way of saying "i dont care so shut up" if thats what i was trying to say, i would just say it. i'm not one to sugar coat what i'm saying or beat around the bush.

 

how do you expect to fix a problem if you dont know what the problem is? most are talking about just adding more lines and breedable dragons to the pool to fix the problem. this does nothing to address the reason why they're starting to breed badly and the problems with the trading market. infact it will worsen the problem.

 

 

This statement is so true. I'm getting sick and tired of people telling others to change their game play.

 

Red2111:

Stroll through the Metal Trades thread for a few pages, or a few dozen, or a few hundred. What you will find is trade after trade after trade offering a half dozen or more CB Golds, CB Silvers, and CB Coppers and asking for only 2nd gen Prizes or CB Golds, Silvers, and Coppers that are younger than the ones they have.

 

What you won't see is people offering 2nd gen Prizes. I think, in all the time I've looked through that thread, I've seen exactly 1 2nd gen Prize dragon offered, and that was recently.

 

Or check the signatures of the older Prize owners. What you will see time and again is "lists closed! Don't contact me!", or "lists open only to 2nd gen Prizes, or xxx special dragon". Even most of the brand new CB Prize owners have lists that are closed already. If that is, they have a forum account and have advertised that they own a prize. Many of the CB Prizes went to persons unknown, and they aren't bred for the public (or they would be known).

 

Yes, if you can find an open list, most CB Prize owners are reasonable. But please note that huge if: IF you can find someone with a list open.

 

There are between 4,000 and 10,000 (or higher!) active players on DC. There are 240 CB Prizes, period. At least 3 of them are on scrolls that are now burned. Virtually the entirety of the Year 2 CB Tinsel crop isn't bred at all any more, and many have never been bred. All 5 of the Year 2 CB Gold Tinsels aren't bred anymore.

 

There are exactly 5 known CB Gold Tinsel males, and 4 CB Gold Tinsels with genders unknown (in short: they aren't bred for trades, or they'd be known). Of the 5 known male Gold Tinsels, 1 has never been bred, and 1 is too young to know how it will be bred. All of the other three are active. There are not enough CB Gold Tinsel males in existence to create a 5th gen checker egg, period. End of Story. Can't be done, because they just don't exist. Even if all owners were willing to breed. Which they manifestly are not. There aren't even enough CB male Gold Tinsels active to breed a 4th gen checker!

 

The CB Prizes aren't rare. They aren't very rare. They aren't even extremely rare. They are unobtainable rare. And the reason the 2nd gens are so rare? Is because the CBs they come from are so vanishingly rare. Even increase the CB Prize breeding rates so they produce a Prize every other breeding won't change that. 2nd gens will still be vanishingly rare, and will still go for multiple CB metals, if that's what the owner wants.

 

The difference? With better breeding rates on the CBs, more people will be able to get the 2nd gens, so the market will no longer be stagnant. There's been no talk of decreasing the breeding rates of the higher gens. And before people go whining about how increasing the 2nd gen population will affect the breeding ratios of the high gens:

Per TJ, more prizes (of all generations) are bred in a year than there are of some commons. Adding another 100 or so per year, or even 200 per year (which is all the time they count to the ratio for) is a drop in the bucket compared to how many are bred, in total, in that 1 year. That small drop won't noticeably shift the breeding rates for the high gens. But it will noticeably shift the balance of the trading market, and the 2nd gen Prizes will go from an unobtainable dream needing more luck than stars in the sky to something you can get, if you work really really hard at it and get some luck.

 

C4.

 

blue - i'm not telling anyone they need to change their play style. i'm simply pointing out the truth because no one else is willing to.

 

truth is, WE created this problem because WE breed the snot out of these dragons. its the same thing with cave blockers (they block the cave because WE aren't willing to pick them up)

 

throwing more prize lines into the market wont fix this issue, it will make it worse.

 

i get it, no one likes to be told "hey you're the problem here" its nice to be able to blame someone else. but the truth is, those of us (to include myself) that have 50+ lines and breed them every week ARE the problem. we want a solution, we HAVE to cut back on breeding. if we're not willing to cut back on breeding then we just need to deal with the droughts when they come and have no one to blame but ourselves.

 

throwing more dragons out there for us to breed off of just means we hit the limit faster. increasing the ratio just means we hit the limit a little later in the year than sooner.

 

my beef is that instead of blaming CB prize owners or the raffle system, perhaps we should be looking in the mirror first and take some responsibility for the mess we've created for ourselves.

 

 

red - and if prizes didn't exist, rares woudl still be only seeking rares, 2G thuweds or 2G spriter lineages or IOUs for 2G Hollies.

 

if you can catch CB Golds and CB Silvers and CB Coppers on such a regular basis that you have your scroll goal and can offer them in trades regularly, this means you've already caught your fill of the easier to catch dragons. so why would you trade for them?

 

 

purple - thats becase the lists stay booked if theres a list at all. and iirc there is one or two CB prize owners that auction their offspring off cause they dont keep lists.

 

 

orange - we'rent you just lecturing on not telling people how to play the game? but its okay for you to demean CB prize owners for how they treat their babies and what they ask for in exchange for their babies offspring because they're willing to breed their babies. so what if some havent been bred, or Micky is frozen, or their owners dont want to be contacted. thats how those players WANT to play the game. this is hypocritical. either you believe people should be able to play the game how they want and dont complain about how prize owners treat their babies just ebcause you dont agree with it; or you believe that others can dictate how people play the game and dont complain when someone dictates how you should play.

 

 

yellow - and if no one agreed to pay multiple CB metals then the prize owners would accept a trade of lesser value *shrugs* or else their trade would sit there and grow up on their scroll. but so long as majority of us are willing to pay an arm and a leg for the 2G's, because we must have those 2G's, then thats where the price will stay.

 

and that price isn't set by what the owner wants, its set by what people are willing to pay for the 2G. owners judge their value by what other CB owners are getting for their 2G's or by accepting the highest offer on a trade link (like we all do in trading)

 

 

green - and you dont see a problem where an un-obtainably rare dragon breed is adding more dragons to the cave than any other common? thats why i say the problem is over breeding.

 

and yes adding the 2G's themselves maybe a drop in the bucket compared to all the breeding lines, but those 2G's will produce 3G which will produce 4G's and on and on.

 

and you can't just increase the breeding ability of the CB's as the breeding ratio counts for all the dragons in the breed not just a certain generation. so this means that ALL shimmers being bred will breed better (which adds more lines, and more breeders and increases the population and gets use right back to square one

 

and theres no gaurentee that more 2G's in the market will do anything more than devalue the other dragons. nor does it guarantee that it will stabilize the market. people with CB Golds will still only be looking for low gen prizes or rare swaps. infact by making them cost less and devaluing all the other dragons more, you'll shift more focus onto the low gen prize lines and create more demand for them because people who otherwise coudln't get one will see that they can and will start aiming to get it.

 

and once demand starts to increase, the price for the 2G's will increase with it.

 

 

its simple economics people.

 

[cyradis4]

1. Yes, you ARE telling us how to play the game, by telling us to stop "whining".

 

2a. I did not create this problem. I do NOT breed Prizes that are above 4th gens unless its for a personal lineage project, where I usually end up keeping the egg. So point the finger at YOURSELF, not me. My higher gens haven't been bred since last Summer I think, when I did a little experiment (got over 100 "no eggs" or "not interested" in a row, I was impressed!).

And telling people they "are the problem" is stupid. This is a collecting and breeding game. Breeding, get it? So why do you keep harping on something that WILL never, and CAN never happen? That is, forcing users to change their play style. Better to find a solution that solves the problem with created the least additional ones.

Besides, your so-called solution was tried, with Frills. It failed miserably. Human nature and all.

 

2b. The blocker problem: Some breeds have ratios that have them too common for the userbase to be willing to absorb. Yep, economics. Supply and demand. Supply far exceeds the demand. How do you fix it? Either decrease supply, or increase demand. Supply is ratios. To increase demand, you make the blockers more desirable. There's a simple way to do that: rotate eggs that sit to the AP, where they loose time and get picked up and raised, thereby contributing to the ratios. I've a suggestion out on it, look it up. It lays it all out quite clearly! But its not in the scope of this thread.

 

2c. The idea between this and other threads is to increase the number of 2nd gens produced, since THEY are where the bottleneck is occurring. If CB Prizes are removed from the ratios and breed on a fixed rate, then that bottleneck on the production of 2nd gens expands a good bit, easing the problem.

And there's a reason I support no new Prize species being released. We've got enough exclusive breeds already.

 

2d. Someone once traded me a CB Gold for several 5th gen Common x Common lineages. Why? They liked the lineages, but producing a 5th even gen or higher even gen, with a perfect pattern, takes time and dedication. I've also gotten a CB Silver for CB hatchies. Why? The person I was trading with wanted certain hatchies, but didn't want to raise them from the egg. And they had this CB Silver.

Different people have different goals. But right now, the fast catchers are mostly dedicating their catches to getting 2nd gen Prizes, because that's what they CAN"T get with anything else. With 2nd gens turning up more regularly, people get their fill of 2nd gens, and turn their attention to other projects that they neglected in favor of trying for said 2nd gen Prize. Simple economics, as you say.

 

3. I know a CB Prize owner, Lorimmel who owns Epica. She will not accept new people, because her list is full. She hasn't accepted anyone new in a very long time. And she's not the only one. Take a good, hard look at the offspring of the CB Tinsels, particularly the CB Gold Tinsels. You can see their progeny pages. I assure you, I have! Most of their Prize offspring are from the first year of their life, with practically none from 2013.

Simply put: The original CB Tinsels have produced very few 2nd gens over the last year and a half. So how can the lists be opening and filling, if no 2nd gens were produced at all?

 

4. Read what I wrote and not what your prejudices want you to see. I'm not saying the CB Prize owners have to breed. In fact, I made no statement on what they should do at all! I was commenting on how ridiculously small the CB Prize breeding pool is. And it is ridiculously small. No gender of a breed should risk extinction in the CB version because 3 people decide to leave. Not in a game of 10,000 users.

In short: I was illustrating how small the CB Prize breeding pool actually is, not commenting one way or another on what a prize owner should DO.

 

5. Your yellow. No supply + high demand = high prices. Simple economics. I'm not sure how your statement relates to mine. I was observing that even with better breeding rates for the CBs, there are so few CBs that the 2nd gens will never become common. In fact, the best that can be hoped for is for them to simply become "very rare", which is a significant improvement over what we have now. Read back in this thread, I've posted the math for it in the past. Mathematically, its not possible for 2nd gen Prizes to ever become more common than CB Golds, even breeding a 2nd gen Prize every single week from every single CB Prize. This is a pure mathematical exercise, and does not take personal preferences into account. Or put another way, 2nd gens Prizes will always be worth more than 1 CB Gold.

So those people moaning about the 2nd gens becoming common haven't bothered to actually look at the problem critically.

 

 

6. Why the devil CAN'T you increase just the CB Prizes? Programming wise, only TJ can rule on that, and he's asked that ideas not be shot down because of programming. Because only HE can answer if it is, indeed, not possible.

Quite the contrary! He HAS indicated that its possible to base things on dragon generation, but he wasn't convinced that it was a good idea. But he was willing to be convinced. (The comment he made was specifically on multi-clutching based on generation of the egg, ie, CB dragons can multi-clutch 4, 2nd gens multi-clutch 3, and so on down to 1).

 

6b. Devaluing. That's laughable. How do you devalue something that is already valueless? There's a person on the IRC who trades 5th gen prizes for 1 hatchie. Not even a CB one, either! Any messy / inbred hatchie. And it still takes them a while to trade each egg (and that's with the AP being filled with incu-hatchable eggs, ie, free hatchies). 5th gen Prizes and up are already without value. 4th gens have very little value. Only the 3rd and 2nd gens have value. And 2nd gens NEED to be de-valued a bit.

And with more 2nd gens, you can actually work with 3rd gen lines. So more variety.

 

6c. There is no guarantee that the sun will rise tomorrow. But it probably will. In life, there are never guarantees. Will this alone stabilize the market? Maybe, maybe not. There is not a single living person who can say with assurance one way or another, because the event is in the future and guess what? Humans can't see the future. But it will help. Will it be more beneficial combined with other ideas? Yep, probably. But TJ wanted each considered separately. So here they are.

There IS no demand for high gen Prizes. No one wants them! Oh sure, people pick them up for free, but that's the only time anyone does anymore. So the focus is already entirely on the 2nd gens and 3rd gens. So again... How will devaluing the already valueless higher gens make any practical difference?

There are two basic types of people on DC: Sprite collectors, and lineage collects. The Sprite collectors typically won't care, either way. They don't care about lineage. The lineage collectors are almost always more interested in building of lineages well beyond 3rd gen, so as long as the 2nd gens with the mate they want exists, most are happy to trade for a 3rd gen with the proper lineage. In fact, I know some (like me!) prefer to trade for a 3rd gen, if it has the proper lineage. Why? You pay a lot less for what you actually want.

The idea between this and many other ideas is to increase the potential for 2nd gens, so that a given person has a higher chance of making a connection with either a CB or 2nd gen owner. Some owners will breed to trade, some will breed to gift, some won't breed, some will freeze, some will kill their prizes. The idea isn't to force owners to do one thing or the other, its to increase the breeding potential of ALL prizes so that those who do freely choose to gift / trade / breed can produce more, giving a higher chance of finding the dragons people want with the lineages they want. Simple, basic math.

 

C4.

[Obscure_Trash]

correcting some mistakes:

 

- shimmers as a whole breed way better than tinsels ever did. Their ratios are not interconnected.

Sounds like something only TJ should be confirming/denying.

[Walron]

I have a cave breed prize and I don't trade for crazy amounts because, quite frankly, I think that most of the rares are ugly. No offence spriters, but I dislike the tinsels and other rares, because, quite frankly, most of my favorites are commons. I mostly accept what my online or irl friends can/want to offer, because I prefer making people happy if I know them and know that they, in turn, won't overcharge. The only reason that I ever want to change breeding ratios is because my favorite pairing of my shimmer has never produced a shimmer and it makes me sad because I like the pairing so much. And before you tell me to just switch mates, I will refuse. I made a promise to only breed HIjol to two dragons and I will keep by that promise. I don't believe in breeding dragons to many mates unless they refuse which rarely happens to me lol. I just want ratios changed so I can have my favorite pairing produce and so I can fulfill an offer one of my friends made me last valentines. I hate most rares and I love commons, but mostly I like how excited my 'friends' get at getting their very first second gen shimmer. Yes, I may not have met them, and may not know them very well, but I still like to think that some of us are friends

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I do wish that rares had a set percent chance of breeding (or at least, set within a certain amount of wiggle room--like, iunno, 1%-5% depending on ratios). Because right now, despite what's been said, the chances of getting a rare from any given mate are NOT equal. Heck, even the chance of getting a normal common from some super commons are extremely dismal... :/

[Thuban]

Outside of a three week period where I got NO prizes from any pairing, I've never had problems getting at least 1 3rd gen a week from my breedings. There isnt really a way to change ratios based on gen that I can think of that wouldnt be an unfair advantage over people trying to breed the exact same species in higher gens.

 

Sure, its annoying going a month or two without specific shinies from specific dragons.. if you are getting them from any of the other ones you are trying.. you are still getting shinies. I have had basic silver dragons go ever three years without ever breeding shinies.

 

I make a point to breed eggs from the ones that I need eggs from most (whoever has trades listed at the time) followed by doing them in order from rarest line to most common. I generally dont bother breeding my most common lines, because I cant seem to give away my third gens anymore. People only want to offer messy hatchys for some of my lines at this point. I rarely breed anything other than my second gens (and I dont even breed half of them most of the time anymore) in the effort to make sure other people have a shot at the ratio roulette. I do this because I want to, not because people think I should.

 

 

[Syphoneira]

Personally, I don't have lists anymore, most of my stuff not being exactly wildly desirable, so the fact that I'm getting any shinies from any Prizes is great, (effectively stopped breeding from 6th gen and over a long time ago, although right at this moment again trying to breed the odd 5th I think particularly pretty, for something for particular people or a bit of random gifting,) and generally just offer them to people I think might like them or, infrequently, to try for a trade.

 

 

But the fact is that the breeding of 3rd gen Prizes - something that relatively few have few of - creates (sometimes, if too rarely, lol,) 4th gens, which produce 5ths, which then, of course, produce 6th gens, which really aren't worth breeding anymore since generally unwanted, their progeny just taking up chances for lower-gens to be bred - and so 6th gens are effectively scroll ornaments, making 5th gens effectively only scroll ornament producers, and 4th gens producers of scroll ornament producers.

 

And, as in real life, the 'wealth' and ability to gift really welcome items then continually and increasingly concentrates among the very few lucky/fast, etc., enough to have been able to acquire the means to set up the cycle, (however slow it may be, lol) effectively gaining control of the market itself, even if many individuals don't think of it that way.

 

So, in order to give happy-making gifts or make useful trades, people really need a lot (with low breeding rates, a ton, actually,) of low-gen Prizes - which are thin on the ground, because there're not many being produced, or many that have been produced over the years, continuing the spiral and creating a cycle of scarcity.

 

Edit: this doesn't work any better here than it does in RL.

 

 

If the numbers of produced 2nd and 3rd gens were increased, there would at least be some improvement in the situation,

 

and the people waiting on lists for typically very extended lengths of time for such low-gens would be much happier

 

as would the people then able to hope for offspring from theirs.

 

 

The owners would then be less likely to find the CB/low-gen Tinsel(s)/Shimmer(s) they'd been so happy to get a source of stress, owners in some cases even no longer answering PMs from listers or leaving the site because their dragons produce so badly, with the people (having traded mass top quantities and qualities of hard-to-obtain dragons for places) on lists for low-gen offspring getting restive/giving up hope over waits potentially of years or the owners simply feeling so badly about the wait that the game is no longer fun for them.

 

The people on lists would then have lower-gens to breed to gift/trade/keep for breeding - and the situation would be a lot less tense/annoying, especially for those currently without any Prize dragons really worth breeding.

 

 

Even if just the CB (rather than the 1st to 3rd gen) Prizes bred a lot better, at least the breed situation would improve, as well as the situation of those waiting on lists for them, and of those below them, waiting for 3rd-gens to drop, lol.

 

There have been various changes introduced by TJ now and then, despite general long-standing rules/guidelines, so - however faintly - one can hope.

 

 

Although, returning after my lengthy loss of internet, I'm happy to see lineages at last returning to the trade threads, here and there.

 

Perhaps, with accumulated discouragement, some extent of the shine is going off these top few gens of shinies, enough that throughout DC society other dragons generally regain the varying value individuals once commonly and normally placed on them, according to their own taste and need, rather than those of mere trade values.

 

 

I know, TLDR, my information dates from some 7 months back although the low-gen Prize scarcity seems to have remained, and some people do like long-gen Prizes...

 

But newer people, assuming any read through this, wouldn't have been through all this over recent years.

 

 

 

Re-edit: thanks to Socky for bringing this back into the conversation!

 

There are so many good posts on here!

Edited November 15, 2014 by Syphoneira

[whitebaron]

If i look at this, i just keep thinking: yes, please, do that.

 

It will increase the disparity between people who have 2gs right now and those who haven't a lot further, and having 2 2nd gen shimmers will make me personally richer.

 

Increasing lower gen ratios helps the rich more than the poor. Because we'll have a lot more to swap with than we currently get.

 

--

 

@adp: i don't see TJ ever implementing fixed breeding chances (which he'd need to set), as it would mean him valuing one sprite over another which he simply does not do.

[Syphoneira]

But more 2nd gens still means more obligations/lists filled and refilled, and more third gens produced, increasing the chances of more 'poor' people getting 3rd and 4th gens.

 

I have a 2nd gen which was gifted to me, and from which I've been able to gift pathetically few offspring over the years.

 

I should have traded for a couple of 3rds to increase my useful breeding pool, and will, if I get any more eggs and can...

[Vhale]

Watching the trade posts makes me feel like prizes have become little more than currency at this point. People care little for what dragon they are getting, besides the gen number. In which case. for truly unbiased trading I think any prize breeding suggestions miss the point a bit and may as well go straight to currency suggestions.

[Fuzzbucket]

Watching the trade posts makes me feel like prizes have become little more than currency at this point. People care little for what dragon they are getting, besides the gen number. In which case. for truly unbiased trading I think any prize breeding suggestions miss the point a bit and may as well go straight to currency suggestions.

*applauds*

 

I am so SICK of all the discussion about the VALUE of prize dragons.

 

Actually, about the "value" of any dragon.

[whitebaron]

*applauds*

 

I am so SICK of all the discussion about the VALUE of prize dragons.

 

Actually, about the "value" of any dragon.

anything that can be traded, will always have a value.

prize dragons do have a high value, simply because yes, there is a very high DEMAND for them.

 

That aside: most of the people who think that they are so expensive, are ironically not really ready to work for them. I offer very "cheap" to anyone who asks nicely, but many are not prepared to even breed and hatch me 4 dragons.

 

Others are, and give me for example 3 2g avatars for one 3g prize. I also traded for 4 2g avatars and two other bred eggs - that's two more 3g prizes that will hit scrolls of people who are prepared to work for it.

 

 

@syphoneira: more 2gs on e.g. my scroll, what would that help anyone who wants them?

Even if every cb prize throws an egg every other week, there's at least triple the amount of cb metallics in the cave each week.... So people who can catch those, will still be at a complete advantage, they might just be able to get 4 dragons out of their 4 eggs, instead of just 1.

[Syphoneira]

anything that can be traded, will always have a value.

prize dragons do have a high value, simply because yes, there is a very high DEMAND for them.

 

That aside: most of the people who think that they are so expensive, are ironically not really ready to work for them. I offer very "cheap" to anyone who asks nicely, but many are not prepared to even breed and hatch me 4 dragons.

 

Others are, and give me for example 3 2g avatars for one 3g prize. I also traded for 4 2g avatars and two other bred eggs - that's two more 3g prizes that will hit scrolls of people who are prepared to work for it.

 

 

@syphoneira: more 2gs on e.g. my scroll, what would that help anyone who wants them?

Even if every cb prize throws an egg every other week, there's at least triple the amount of cb metallics in the cave each week.... So people who can catch those, will still be at a complete advantage, they might just be able to get 4 dragons out of their 4 eggs, instead of just 1.

 

 

 

Hi, whitebaron,

 

just to point out, as you undoubtedly know, there's a maintained high scarcity situation creating that high demand among dragon-collecting fanatics, (as many of us are, lol,) creating high trading prices, changing DC into an economic game, rather than the free-wheeling dragon 'collect/breed what whatever suits you' game so many of us joined - introducing a precedence of trade value over personal taste valuation, a type of mindset which many of us see more than enough of in RL.

 

Reducing that scarcity by a sufficient degree would allow the DC community to rebalance a lot, although at least lineages are making a reappearance in the trade pages now.

 

Up until the Raffles (the idea of which I still love; would just wish for better CB numbers issued and better breeding results in the lower gens,) everybody used to be able to at least plan to/dream they'd 'get them all' - but in this case, mostly could eventually get only a few longer-lineaged lines of the various Tinsels and Shimmers, and often not the mates they wanted for specific plans.

 

We are indeed dragon-collecting fanatics, or we wouldn't have stuck it out through endless Cave-Blocking issues, the breeding freeze, Lag-monsters, the Fog, (the latter before my time, thankfully,) and all of the lengthy ills which have befallen the site through the years, making actual activities here difficult to impossible for extended periods of time.

 

But the low-gen Prize trade values, (against which all other dragons have become measured, because of this scarcity,) are too high for many, especially those on slower systems, creating a societal outlook wedge along with the 'fiscal' one.

 

 

Why assume that people aren't *willing* to work for what they want because you're asking what you think of as attainable 'prices'?

 

Not everyone has multiple GoNs and the ability to breed those 3 or 4 avatars - I haven't any at all yet myself, as I'm catching up on 7 months of missed dragons, nor have I been able to Summon that 3rd GoN yet, either, lol.

 

 

 

Yup, as you say, the people with 4 times their previous numbers of 2nd gens would be breeding 4 times as many 3rd gens for trading or gifting, and increased numbers of the more affordable 4th gens would be produced, as well.

 

It might be a drop in the bucket, but at least the bucket wouldn't be as dry as it's been.

 

 

I've just had the next 3rd gen Shimmer produced by her 2nd gen promised to me as a gift by a WONDERFUL person, who will be getting the next 3rd gen Tinsel egg my 2nd gen (which was gifted to me by wonderful people,) must surely produce someday gifted to her, and I do know how generous many people are - when they have something to share.

 

For a lot of us, gifting has long been a major part of the game, and we'd rather be reasonably sure that our gifts make someone genuinely happy than merely accepted out of mistaken politeness to the loss of a precious scroll space.

 

We still value happiness a lot, lol, and like to share it round.

 

Hard to do when a lot of your dragons can't make happy-making gifts...

[Mondat]

just to point out, as you undoubtedly know, there's a maintained high scarcity situation creating that high demand among dragon-collecting fanatics, (as many of us are, lol,) creating high trading prices, changing DC into an economic game, rather than the free-wheeling dragon 'collect/breed what whatever suits you' game so many of us joined - introducing a precedence of trade value over personal taste valuation, a type of mindset which many of us see more than enough of in RL. 

 

Reducing that scarcity by a sufficient degree would allow the DC community to rebalance a lot, although at least lineages are making a reappearance in the trade pages now.

 

Up until the Raffles (the idea of which I still love; would just wish for better CB numbers issued and better breeding results in the lower gens,) everybody used to be able to at least plan to/dream they'd 'get them all' - but in this case, mostly could eventually get only a few longer-lineaged lines of the various Tinsels and Shimmers, and often not the mates they wanted for specific plans.

But you do not mean to say that CB raffle prizes are the only cause for that, do you?

Before the raffles there were still Alt sprites, the elusive Golds and Silvers, NDs, Hollies, Thuweds....

 

For a lot of us, gifting has long been a major part of the game, and we'd rather be reasonably sure that our gifts make someone genuinely happy than merely accepted out of mistaken politeness to the loss of a precious scroll space.

 

We still value happiness a lot, lol, and like to share it round.

I've just had the next 3rd gen Shimmer produced by her 2nd gen promised to me as a gift by a WONDERFUL person, who will be getting the next 3rd gen Tinsel egg my 2nd gen (which was gifted to me by wonderful people,) must surely produce someday gifted to her, and I do know how generous many people are - when they have something to share.

Aaah, so you mean low-gen prize owners sharing their happi- uh low-gen prizes with each other? GOTCHA!

 

Like whitebaron said, yes please to improved breeding ratios. My 2G Shimmer hasn't made me really "rich" yet. An all-number-code CB Olive gave me a CB Gold&Silver in comparison.

And heeeeellll to the noo I am going to gift 3rd gens to some strangers.

 

PS: Still no support from me guys, sorry. Is it raffle time yet or why are these threads coming up? Hope everybody has a lovely day!

[Syphoneira]

But you do not mean to say that CB raffle prizes are the only cause for that, do you?

Before the raffles there were still Alt sprites, the elusive Golds and Silvers, NDs, Hollies, Thuweds....

 

 

 

Aaah, so you mean low-gen prize owners sharing their happi- uh low-gen prizes with each other? GOTCHA!

 

Like whitebaron said, yes please to improved breeding ratios. My 2G Shimmer hasn't made me really "rich" yet. An all-number-code CB Olive gave me a CB Gold&Silver in comparison.

And heeeeellll to the noo I am going to gift 3rd gens to some strangers.

 

PS: Still no support from me guys, sorry. Is it raffle time yet or why are these threads coming up? Hope everybody has a lovely day!

 

 

Hi, Mondat!

 

Lol, you hadn't noticed the difference brought by the poor breeding rates of the very low numbers of Prize dragons?

 

Nothing so far outweighed the assessed 'worth' of any other dragon, including the previously most elusive and desired sprites, until the mind-boggling scarcity of the Prizes was met by progressively more frantic offers from the fastest catchers of even whole scroll-fulls of CB Golds - something that would have gradually died down over the years with significant increases in CB Prizes awarded and, most especially, heightened breeding rates.

 

(We're mostly a bunch of greedy dragon-hoarders, , and we like it that way.)

 

 

in this instance, yes, two people, each with one 2nd gen, are gifting each other, whenever eggs are eventually produced, but most of the whole 7 Tinsel eggs produced by mine since she was born at the end of July, 2011, went to people who didn't have 2nd gens.

 

 

And I have gifted a fair number of my nicer dragons to strangers, although I don't often get eggs from the lower gens and no longer bred the longer ones, except in special cases.

 

 

This is one of several recently necro'd threads, but this is also a good time to be discussing such things.

 

And wasn't it nice to have something worth commenting on, and expressing your opinion about?

[Mondat]

(...)

...Well, "nothing so far outweighed the assessed 'worth' of any other dragon, including the previously most elusive and desired sprites" is a personal opinion/perception. No doubt, low-gen prizes are in high demand overall.

But from the part of your post I quoted you make it seem CB prizes were/are solely responsible for Dragon Cave "turning into an economic game", which I simply doubt to be true. I have seen people offering several CB Golds and more for a 2G Holly last Christmas. I see people offering several things for a CB Gold all the time (I still have to catch my first Gold in the cave). I do not need to talk about Alt sprites (which are truly unique sprites) or some of the Thuwed pairings. I would pick a 2G Yulebuck from Hershel or a 2G from CB Thuwed hybrids over a 2G prize anytime. There you have your "assessed worth of prize dragons".

I very much doubt that (to quote you) "everybody used to be able to at least plan to/dream they'd 'get them all'" even before the raffles.

 

 

(We're mostly a bunch of greedy dragon-hoarders,  , and we like it that way.)

 

  in this instance, yes, two people, each with one 2nd gen, are gifting each other, whenever eggs are eventually produced, but most of the whole 7 Tinsel eggs produced by mine since she was born at the end of July, 2011, went to people who didn't have 2nd gens.

 

And I have gifted a fair number of my nicer dragons to strangers, although I don't often get eggs from the lower gens and no longer bred the longer ones, except in special cases.

No need to justify yourself, it just proves my point.

Yes, we are mostly a bunch of greedy dragon-hoarders. And that's precisely why I do not buy it when people (as a whole) say "improve prize breeding ratios so we can share our happiness/low-gen prizes with the DC community", but that might be just me

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Despite being the one who started the topic, I now think the solution isn't changing a specific breed's rarity so much as changing how breeding mechanics work.

 

Right now, a breed that's slightly more common than another can completely eclipse another breed in breeding. It makes breeding to anything that's not already rare itself really not fun, and can clog up prize lists and normal checkers alike for months on end. :/