Remote Biomes

[ZzelaBusya]

My head hurts...

I share your pain хD

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I think the way you suggest this is a bit problematic. Because, if you need 10 points for any one biome to unlock the "extra", you'd only need to collect 10 metallics - which drop in all biomes - to gain access to all biomes at once. So, no, this does not work.

 

Maybe a quest is a good idea, after all. For example, it could work like this:

Quest

You need to gain 3 quest points to fulfill the quest.

 

Number of breeds:

Collect 2 dragons from 50% of all breeds living in this biome  (not counting rares and/or unbreedables). (1 point)

 

Collect 3 dragons from 80% of all breeds living in this biome (not counting rares and/or unbreedables). (2 points)

 

Collect 4 dragons from all breeds living in this biome (not counting rares and/or unbreedables). (3 points)

 

 

Number of dragons:

Collect 50 dragons that are exclusive to this biome. (1 point)

 

Collect 100 dragons that are exclusive to this biome. (2 points)

 

Collect 250 dragons that are exclusive to this biome. (3 points)

 

 

Hunting trips:

Go hunting in this biome for 50 times. (Only one trip per day counts.) (1 point)

 

Go hunting in this biome for 100 times. (Only one trip per day counts.) (2 points)

 

Go hunting in this biome for 250 times. (Only one trip per day counts.) (3 points)

 

This allows you to get all points either by collecting all breeds, or by collecting lots of dragons from the biome (by creating an army of mints or whatever), or by hunting there often. Or you can combine all three methods - 50 days of hunting and collecting 50 dragons from half of all breeds dropping there. That's a goal even a newbie can achieve in less than 2 months. However, players who don't want to stuff their scrolls only need to visit a biome for 250 times to find the secret passage or whatever to the extra biome hidden in there.

I assumed dragons that dropped in all biomes wouldn't count.

 

I like the quest suggestion, but I'd say replace the first idea with flat-out "collect 33%/66%/100% of breeds in a biome," as the current collect x amount of x% of breeds thing you've got going on now seems unnecessarily complicated and also seems like it'd be overlapping too much with part #2.

 

 

[whitebaron]

if you do quests, do quests. let the player choose first, what they want to do, then let them solve it.

 

olympe's system is far to complicated, it makes my head spin and I LIKE difficult systems...

[angelicdragonpuppy]

if you do quests, do quests. let the player choose first, what they want to do, then let them solve it.

 

olympe's system is far to complicated, it makes my head spin and I LIKE difficult systems...

? There's nothing all that complex about it; what are you confused on?

[Fuzzbucket]

? There's nothing all that complex about it; what are you confused on?

Not confused. But it is just too complex to be FUN to play through.

[whitebaron]

? There's nothing all that complex about it; what are you confused on?

mostly about the numbers needed like, whats 80% of the breeds.

also, the amount of cross-questpoint bookkeeping.

 

i posted that idea of quests before, and how i imagined it - just let a player decide which quest he/she wants to do instead of putting such complicated combined quest points on everyone.

 

also, that way the system can be a lot more flexible, with quests that can be added later to suit every playstyle if a player has another one not yet publicly known.

[Pokemonfan13]

If something like that was done there would have to be a progress page that keeps track of how close you are to each part. Otherwise people really wouldn't be able to go for them, at least not without outside lists and other resources.

[Vhale]

Not that I dislike the idea or the complexity, but I'm suspicious if it gets too complex TJ wouldn't go for it due to the Holiday limits thread. Just going by with, it he thinks 2 more per year is too confusing for the average person. Then again, the entire site used to be hush hush and trio summoning isn't exactly spelled out that I know of. Neither are zombies and Halloween. So I'm not sure. Just my impression from that thread is that we shouldn't go too far.

[olympe]

Probably, yes. But even if he uses this as a hidden guideline, it's a possibility.

 

Regarding "collect x percentage of breeds", I didn't want to make it too easy. For desert, for example, you'd need to collect less than 10 breeds for 1 point, and less than 20 to enter the special biome. If you don't count any of the breeds that are rare and/or unbreedable, you'll come to a very small number of dragons overall:

- thunders (uncommon)

- spitfires

- stones

- sunstones

- moonstones

- pinks

- purples

- magi

- nebulas

- blacks

- greys

- brimstones

- turpentines

- reds.

 

In effect, you could enter a special biome with no more than 14 dragons collected. Even if you had to raise them to adulthood, a mere noob could raise them within 15 days. Call me what you want, but I'd never consider someone with 15 dragons a veteran.

[Shinobimasterz]

I don't really like this idea since it excludes the newbie players from the hunt. I believe that the biomes as we have them now are just enough for everyone and everything. Adding a biome within a biome is a bit unnecessary

 

The newbie players should be allowed to catch rares just like any other player

Also, if someone with a 100 dragons has luck in catching golds and silvers, why should he be excluded just because he is a bit new to the site?

 

 

[olympe]

I don't really like this idea since it excludes the newbie players from the hunt. I believe that the biomes as we have them now are just enough for everyone and everything. Adding a biome within a biome is a bit unnecessary

 

The newbie players should be allowed to catch rares just like any other player

Also, if someone with a 100 dragons has luck in catching golds and silvers, why should he be excluded just because he is a bit new to the site?

This only shows that you don't know what's been discussed here. (Yes, I know it's blunt. Yes, I know that bluntness might seem rude. I don't care.)

 

What we discussed are veteran biomes with a lot of new common breeds. No rares at all. No golds, no silvers, no dinos, chickens, papers, cheeses. Just commons. Rares and uncommons will drop in all the usual biomes, which will be just as available for new players as they are for veteran players.

 

The biomes as we have them now aren't too bad - some are better (desert, alpine), some are worse (jungle, coast). But overall, they're all right right now. However, we need to plan for the future. TJ considers releasing about 10-14 new breeds each year. Right now, things might work - but what about in 5 years, with 50 additional breeds? What if he decides to release more of them?

 

The answer is very simple. Go to the jungle - which contains a lot of breeds, most of which are older commons. What do you see? Blockage, that's what you'll find 90% of the time, even during the hourly drop. And if we stuff all other biomes with more commons, eventually, they'll turn into another blocked biome.

 

This will also help with releasing more of the many awesome breeds on the completed list. (Right now, there should be roughly 500 completed dragons there. And we're already having people pull their art to have the dragons released on other petsites.)

[Syphoneira]

But olympe, if only a certain group of people can access what's common in an exclusive biome, the commons there would be effectively rare to those outside - this sets up a built-in trade monopoly for those qualified to access the biomes and excludes everyone else for (varying with different suggestions) extended periods.

 

We all want all of the new dragon types now, and this would create numerous issues even beyond those of the currently excluded continually having to pay the group having access high prices for commons in an area they can't get to from here to catch their own...

 

This sounds like a 1% fantasy land, not the DC we joined in order to collect dragons for the sake of the dragons we liked and wanted, rather than as a source of 'revenue'.

[Fuzzbucket]

But olympe, if only a certain group of people can access what's common in an exclusive biome, the commons there would be effectively rare to those outside - this sets up a built-in trade monopoly for those qualified to access the biomes and excludes everyone else for (varying with different suggestions) extended periods.

 

We all want all of the new dragon types now, and this would create numerous issues even beyond those of the currently excluded continually having to pay the group having access high prices for commons in an area they can't get to from here to catch their own...

 

This sounds like a 1% fantasy land, not the DC we joined in order to collect dragons for the sake of the dragons we liked and wanted, rather than as a source of 'revenue'.

I can't help but agree. It would be like the shimmers all over again - on a larger scale, but still...

[Fiona]

That depends, Symphoneira, on whose version of this idea you're looking at. Some people like the idea of the extended biomes being something that players work toward longer term. Make them harder to get into, and it becomes more of a reward for people who've been playing for years.

 

Some of us want the extended biomes to be less of a reward for long term players and more of new, interesting territory to explore.

 

The first group sets the bar very high to get into the new biomes. The second group sets it low, so even newer players can start getting in, once they've gotten past the first hurdle of learning how to hatch an egg and get it to grow into an adult.

 

I'm in the second group. I figure if we set the bar high so that few players can reach the new biomes we'd just as well make a "club" biome where you can only get in if you're "special." Nah. Don't like that idea at all. Worse than the rarity of shimmers, the idea that the bar needs to be set high so long term players have hard goals to work toward would make what are intended as common dragons a license to "print money" in terms of trading.

 

I proposed a simple way to set this up, with a low requirement to access the biomes. Just 10 dragons from a biome and you have access. By the time a player has a bronze trophy they're able to access all the new biomes. A player who is so new they only have 10 dragons could potentially get access to the first one, if all 10 dragons they pick up are able to drop in the same biome. I don't even want to restrict it to CB dragons, or dragons actually picked up only in that biome. If they get 10 purples, that would give access to all biomes. That seems ok to me. Because if they know enough about what they're doing to concentrate on purples, they already know enough to enjoy the new biomes.

 

Olympe and others of that "make it harder to get in" set keep trying to complicate the requirements. In my opinion we should Keep It Simple. (and I'll leave off the last word...)

[angelicdragonpuppy]

If you're going to have special biomes, they need to be, well, special. Not something a newbie can get into in under two months. If you want something that easy, just make sub-biomes that are accessible to everyone from day one. I'd be fine with that. What I dislike is trying to make these biomes out to be all cool and exploratory when in reality they'd be super easy to get into.

 

Go all the way with making them special or don't make them special at all. Easy 'challenges' are lame. If the challenge isn't a challenge, it's a chore, and shouldn't be around at all.

 

Personally, I still think Olympe's idea is lovely. Fairly complex, yet easy to do if you're persistent, AND it can work for any play style.

Edited March 25, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[olympe]

I'm not saying that newbies need to be kept out of all veteran biomes for years on end, but neither do I want to make things too easy. And 10 dragons to unlock all of them makes it way too easy.

 

First of all, as a new player, you have about 90 "new" (non-holiday!) breeds to collect at the moment. In order to do that, you need to know where they drop, how to breed them (colored stripes, hybrids, geodes, alts) or how else to get them (gifting lists, trading, summoning, biting, neglecting, reviving on Halloween). That's a lot to learn, and enough that some people are afraid that it might become too much if too many breeds are added.

 

That means that, unless you hunt the AP exclusively, you need to learn about 90 different descriptions. (Okay, maybe 80. Something like that.) A new player will also learn about BSAs and their use, how to raise dragons effectively, how to breed them and what breeds together (pygmies, splits, drak(e)s and the rest), which combinations produce hybrids or other interesting things not available in the cave. They will also learn about unbreedables, about rares, commons, uncommons and everything in between. About hourly drops and AP blockage (if activated). About the three holiday releases and other events like the hunt for Easter eggs.

 

In short, new players have lot to do, and - unless they really aren't into DC anyway - it shouldn't get boring too soon anyway.

 

Personally, I feel that giving a new player with no more than 10 dragons (that drop in all biomes) access to 6 new biomes with around 10 to 15 new breeds each might be a bit much. You might even call it overkill. (How was that about the KISS-principle? )

 

However, once you have reached all your personal goals, you'll either need to define new goals, or the game gets lame. This, I think, is the point where veteran biomes should come in. Not at the very beginning. But before people have played for years on end, either.

 

That's why I put together this kind of quest, where it's totally your choice how you want to reach the goal.

Quest

You need to gain 3 quest points to fulfill the quest.

 

Number of breeds:

Collect at least 1 dragon from 50% of all breeds living in this biome  (not counting rares and/or unbreedables). (1 point)

 

Collect at least 1 dragon from 80% of all breeds living in this biome (not counting rares and/or unbreedables). (2 points)

 

Collect at least 1 dragon from all breeds living in this biome (not counting rares and/or unbreedables). (3 points)

 

 

Number of dragons:

Collect 50 dragons that are exclusive to this biome. (1 point)

 

Collect 100 dragons that are exclusive to this biome. (2 points)

 

Collect 250 dragons that are exclusive to this biome. (3 points)

 

 

Hunting trips:

Go hunting in this biome for 50 times. (Only one trip per day counts.) (1 point)

 

Go hunting in this biome for 100 times. (Only one trip per day counts.) (2 points)

 

Go hunting in this biome for 250 times. (Only one trip per day counts.) (3 points)

 

 

If you're really dedicated, you can reach your first three veteran biomes in less than 2 months. And it doesn't take you more than 4 months to unlock (all?) 6 of them. All you'd need to do is hunt each biome once a day for 50 days - whether they're consecutive days or not does not matter at all. During this time, it's quite easy to get yourself 50 dragons from up to three different biomes, and if you're careful, you will get half of the breeds living in all three of them.

 

If you're truly dedicated and start out with desert, you can unlock your first biome (Desert+) in about two weeks by catching all breeds dropping there. Since Alpine has only 10 breeds you shouldn't have at this point, you can unlock Alpine+ in no more than 9 days. 12 if you insist on raising your dragons to adulthood. That's less than 4 weeks of playing (at no trophy level and without incubates) for unlocking 2 veteran biomes.

 

Now things will progress a little slower, as the biomes get bigger. However, you only need 3 weeks and 1 day to gain one point for hunting, so you'll only need 80% of all breeds from then on. You should also have reached your bronze trophy by then, giving you one additional egg slot. (It's getting late over here, I'm tired and not in the mood to caluclate how much time you need for biome 3. However, even without raising any dragons at all, you can get to all veteran biomes within 9 months by simpling visiting each biome daily.)

[Syphoneira]

Fiona, while I much prefer DC having all things accessible to all people so that they can at least TRY to 'catch them all', (whether or not their chances are those of the proverbial snowball in HELP!,) I could deal with your suggestions.

 

I can appreciate that those playing for personal goals may well get bored and wish for new goals to strive toward - I'd just rather that they didn't alter a game which many of us like for reasons which would then be removed in order to set themselves goals that they personally need.

 

There are so many other games of that sort around, ones that people like me would never join because we're just happy collecting dragons.

 

There doesn't seem to be anything else quite like DC out there, and it's a pity to try to make it like just one of many others, leaving at least some of us with no more... what shall I term it... free-form? dragon collecting of the sort we enjoy, with no division according to ranking as to what we can do and where we can go, at any level or playstyle.

[DragonNighthowler]

You guys will have to forgive me for not reading 15 pages worth of discussion which, no doubt, is very interesting. However, I have the need to say what I thought of it based on the first page which I did read.

 

I have conflicted feelings.

 

1. One part of me thinks this is not such a terrible idea. After all, many games incorporate certain "secret rooms" or "secret armors" or "secret whatever" that is unlocked upon achieving a certain level or solving a puzzle or whatever. For example, in Skyrim you do the Daedric Shrine Quests to unlock special, unique weapons.

Also, since this will be achievable by everyone with a bit of time and effort, and since 1000 dragons is not that hard to get (I have 1300), I am not radically against it.

 

2. HOWEVER *breathes* continuing along with my previous Skyrim example, the Hearthfire, Dawnguard and Dragonborn DLC placed certain Steam achievements that were mainly focused on annoying (insert censored enraged swearword here) grinding. For example, there is an achievement to fight a certain legendary dragon which only appears after level 78, and a certain super strong hero that only appears at level 81 (which is the maximum you can achieve so far without exploits or mods). Really? I hated it!

I do not play Skyrim to spend 6 hours shooting fireballs at an unkillable NPC so I can get Destruction magic level 100. I play Skyrim to get lost in the vastness of the world, to explore undiscovered caves and find hidden secrets.

If I wanted all achievements, I was forced to play the way of others who enjoy that type of game instead or RPGing a character in an immense sandbox.

 

SO, where I am going is, there are people who do not want more than a couple and frozen hatchlings of each breed, which roughly accounts to, what? 200 dragons? 300? It is bad enough the gold badge is unreachable for them, and thus the perk that goes along with it. I would not feel comfortable knowing there are people who have to choose between adapting or leaving the game.

Sure, they could trade for the special eggs, but many would probably struggle in impossible trades. If Golds and Silvers are that hard to obtain, I don't want to imagine what people would ask for an egg only a few selected, crazy collectors can get.

 

So that's about what I believe. I'm not radically against, but I'm not much in favor either.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

SO, where I am going is, there are people who do not want more than a couple and frozen hatchlings of each breed, which roughly accounts to, what? 200 dragons? 300? It is bad enough the gold badge is unreachable for them, and thus the perk that goes along with it. I would not feel comfortable knowing there are people who have to choose between adapting or leaving the game.

Sure, they could trade for the special eggs, but many would probably struggle in impossible trades. If Golds and Silvers are that hard to obtain, I don't want to imagine what people would ask for an egg only a few selected, crazy collectors can get.

 

So that's about what I believe. I'm not radically against, but I'm not much in favor either.

I know that you said you didn't read everything (can't blame you!), so I thought I'd just mention that there are several ideas right now that would allow people a variety of different ways to access the biomes without having to collect a ton of stuff.

[DragonNighthowler]

I know that you said you didn't read everything (can't blame you!), so I thought I'd just mention that there are several ideas right now that would allow people a variety of different ways to access the biomes without having to collect a ton of stuff.

Thank you ^^

 

If it is so, then, it might just solve that very issue, which is the only thing really bothering me.

[Slaskia]

SO, where I am going is, there are people who do not want more than a couple and frozen hatchlings of each breed, which roughly accounts to, what? 200 dragons? 300? It is bad enough the gold badge is unreachable for them, and thus the perk that goes along with it.

I got curious and decided to do some counting (yes, I'm crazy).

 

There's an average of 4-5 sprites per breed (not counting eggs), some have more if they have alts (Stripes have the most with 20). If a new person collects two adults and freezes a hatchling of at each stage (2 for gendered if there's dimorphism) of every breedable dragon that can be caught in cave (including bred-onlys like hybrids and some alts), the number of dragons they'll have by the time they finish would be about 390.

 

Throw in the unbreedables (Including NDs and Zombies and accounting for the fact you can only have two GoDs), that number goes up to 421.

 

Add Holidays (again accounting for the limits of 2 per scroll for Val and Christmas ones and including Hollies). 464

 

Now, if they got lucky enough to get one of each prize dragon variant....: 488

 

So, 12 short of the Gold trophy (which would be covered by a few months of new releases this year).

 

On that note, if this was restricted by trophy level (gold trophy required in this case), it would be completely possible for someone with a strict 'one adult of each gender, 2-3 frozen hatchlings' scroll goal to achieve it...eventually.

 

Just thought I'd put that out there for those curious.

 

Edit: math fail

Edited March 26, 2013 by Slaskia

[Fiona]

One severe issue I have with Olympe's suggestion is the added suggestion to not count any dragons we already have when the new biomes are added, making everyone start "even". I don't know how serious you were about that, but I'll just say right now, I've been playing this game for 4 1/2 years. I pick up dragons as they appeal to me, not having any set numbers of anything I get. I went through the wiki, and determined by that, that as things stand I probably wouldn't ever be able to get into half the new biomes. Of course, that doesn't count new breeds being released into those biomes, so eventually, yes, I'm sure I would. It would probably take years of course.

 

But, collecting even half of the existing breeds anew? Chances are slim. I already have all breeds except dinos. (Yes, I know you weren't counting those.) On just over half of the in-cave breeds I already have as many as appeal to me. So, if starting from scratch, there's no points there for me on the "collect at least one of x number of breeds that drop in that biome." Two of the biomes I would probably get at least that one point.

 

Collect 50 dragons that drop exclusively in that biome? There are 0 dragons that drop exclusively in the Forest that I particularly want more of. No points there. Eventually, again, as new breeds are released I would get there, I suppose.

 

Hunt there 50 times? Depends on what counts as hunting, doesn't it? I'm likely to click through the biomes when I hunt, just looking to see how many people are in there and if things are moving. Does that count? Or do I actually have to try to click an egg? Cuz, again, not getting in on those terms.

 

 

My point is, if a veteran player, who's been here 4 1/2 years, can't get into these "special" biomes with these rules, the rules are too restricting. And if you count existing dragons? I'm already in all of them. Where's this "new challenge" you're talking about?

 

 

 

If the choice were between no new biomes at all, or what you're proposing? I choose no new biomes.

[olympe]

My point is, if a veteran player, who's been here 4 1/2 years, can't get into these "special" biomes with these rules, the rules are too restricting. And if you count existing dragons? I'm already in all of them. Where's this "new challenge" you're talking about?

If you count existing dragons and have all new 6 biomes unlocked, you'll have access to (roughly) 60 to 90 new breeds to collect. Happy hunting!

 

I could even imagine some other biomes that only get accessible after reaching some other goals. Like...

 

- collecting at least 1 vampire and 1 zombie. (Maybe add a neglected, too? Or is that too hard?) => abyss, lots of really scary dragons there. (Akuma, Bane, Demonic, Demolition, Devil, Doomsday, Face Eater, Fauxnicorn... Examples taken from the completed list.)

- collecting/breeding one (or more?) of each of those: geode, bluna, shallow water, ultraviolet. (Maybe add black and vine alts?) => warped land, lots of very strange dragon breeds there. (Alien, Blind, Charred, Contortia, Double-Winged, Duality, Duotone, Dwarf Cavehopper, Elemental Wing... Examples taken from the completed list.)

- Possessing one of each available color morph (5 different colors of stripes, purple and tan ridgewings, purple and red dorsals, all 4 nebula colorations...) => Biome with lots of variety in the breeds. (Equus, Dragonfruit Pygmy, Blossom Angels, Ambrosial, Alchemistine, Auroral Flareback, Austral, Flamboyant Pygmy, Fluorescent Firebacks, Fly... Examples taken from the completed list)

- Getting at least one of each pygmy breed => Island (with all kinds of pygmies, thanks to island dwarfism: Banana Pygmy, Bluver Pygmy, Cactus Pygmy, Ceramic Pygmy, Cleaner Pygmy...)

- Collecting all kinds of dinos (available in the regular biomes) => DinoCave!

- Collecting 1 paper and 1 cheese => unlock more inanimate object dragons (whitewater, wildfire, tattoo...)

 

But that's just for the far future.

(And please don't tell me that you would hate to have to collect all pygmies in order to get even more of them... )

[klinneah]

I'm really close to most of those too...although all the new breeds would keep me busy for months!

 

That said, I really do like this idea. I think most of the problems could be ironed out by the specifics (i.e. what does it take to unlock the new biomes, etc). +1 support from me

[_Sin_]

I like the idea of biomes accessible via challenge but only if everybody would start from scratch, not counting existing dragons. Newbies would be at disadvantage anyway because of their scroll/eggs limits...