Remote Biomes

[Fuzzbucket]

OOOkk....I don't agree with that at all: I don't want to have to essentially 'repeat' what I have already done. That's not a challenge...that's starting freaking over, which I, and some other's, don't want.

 

*steps away before she says something that will get her warned.

Hides along with Slaskia. (I have no warn, unusually, right now, and - well...)

 

I don't like this idea at all - but I especially wouldn't want to have to start over - I have - one moment - well over 2000 dragons; and I never get rid of any - that is part of my personal playstyle - I really do NOT want to have to get a massive number more that I don't particularly want, just to access stuff.

 

I have plenty of goals, and I don't "avoid" challenges, nor am I "lazy". I just have PLENTY to do without adding new challenges, TBH.

[girlgamerjen]

eeeeh... i dunno. i feel like there are people who say it isnt in their scroll goals to do things like get xyz... which means theyd be excluded... and yet, they themselves do things that are counter to their scroll goals, if it's convenient for them. like getting certain BSA dragons.

 

/shrug

 

If veteran biomes are implemented... i do think trophies would be the easiest/fairest way to implement them. Everyone has a chance to get there, even if theyre just breeding/getting their pinks and reds because they only collect certain sprites... or if theyre just newbies collecting whatever they can. Not forcing certain breeds or visits.

[Rally Vincent]

The only way to make this suggestion not elitist would be to make everyone have to achieve the same conditions - starting from the day of introduction. Otherwise, it'll be just a way to ensure some people have access to good stuff (and new dragons are good stuff), while others don't.

 

But this suggestion will not encourage people to raise blockers. It may make them surrender to the fact that they will have to raise them, but this is something different then encouragement. "Meh, I need another ten of those crappy X Dragon" is not encouragement. It's farming.

 

Most of us take blockers if we like them or if we can insta-hatch them. The current AP situation is the best incentive to raise more blockers - you can get all sorts of incuhatchable CBs there. I don't see the need to make secret biomes for a selected group. I am against this suggestion.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

The only way to make this suggestion not elitist would be to make everyone have to achieve the same conditions - starting from the day of introduction. Otherwise, it'll be just a way to ensure some people have access to good stuff (and new dragons are good stuff), while others don't.

 

But this suggestion will not encourage people to raise blockers. It may make them surrender to the fact that they will have to raise them, but this is something different then encouragement. "Meh, I need another ten of those crappy X Dragon" is not encouragement. It's farming.

 

Most of us take blockers if we like them or if we can insta-hatch them. The current AP situation is the best incentive to raise more blockers - you can get all sorts of incuhatchable CBs there. I don't see the need to make secret biomes for a selected group. I am against this suggestion.

I have BIG problems with the "day of introduction" thing.... And I can see why people would want it that way, too.

 

Another reason I am NOT happy with this ! It seems to me that in the end everyone will end up hacked off.

[Starbit]

Perhaps - and I'm waiting to be shot down for this as it has likely already been said - a biome would be added if you had x amount of dragons OR had been here/been active an x amount of time

 

(I say 'been active' because there are likely old abandoned scrolls who have been here years and I know people would feel it unfair if they got this extra biome and they didn't)

 

I like the idea of extra biomes for 'veteran' players. Especially if it allowed more new dragons to be released there. If I was a newbie it would be a bigger incentive to play and collect more dragons to be able to access more new breeds in a new biome, than to achieve a small trophy at the top of my scroll and a few more eggslots.

 

I'm hoping that DC being the wonderful community it is won't see this as 'elitism' but rather a way to cater to the players that already 'have everything' so to speak and want easier ways to get simple commons for projects or more new dragons to collect. I think it gives newbies something more exciting to work towards - having that veteran status and all those exciting new breeds to collect.

[_Sin_]

I'm hoping that DC being the wonderful community it is won't see this as 'elitism' but rather a way to cater to the players that already 'have everything' so to speak and want easier ways to get simple commons for projects or more new dragons to collect. I think it gives newbies something more exciting to work towards - having that veteran status and all those exciting new breeds to collect.

Actually I'm seeing that as "elitism" of the worst kind. Maybe someone should start a poll on the subject.

[Drakefyre]

I fail to see how giving perks to people who have been playing the game for a long time is elitism. Especially if everyone can get them if they stick around long enough. You want to see true elitism in DC? Frillsand Bright Pinks. But nobody ever complains about those.

[Dame_Jedi]

I don't know if it has been said already, but here goes.

 

I, like any others, do not have a gold trophy because of the manner in which I play. I have been playing dragcave since October 2009, longer than many people that have thousands of dragons. If you really wish to implement veteran biomes, then do it for however long the player has been playing rather than forcing them to get dragons they do not like.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

I fail to see how giving perks to people who have been playing the game for a long time is elitism. Especially if everyone can get them if they stick around long enough. You want to see true elitism in DC? Frills and Bright Pinks. But nobody ever complains about those.

I do. I want an Old Pink. You have NO IDEA how much I want one. (I lie; I want a LOT of them.) I only just missed them, I gather and I will never ever get over it.

 

That aside - I agree that IF this is going to happen (and I am still an anti !) it should be based on length of play, not on what you've collected. That's the only thing that cannot affect play style. I totally sympathise with those who have no interest in a gold trophy as it doesn't fit the way they choose to play. I have no problem PERSONALLY with the trophy thing, as I already have a gold - but many who have been playing since day one have chosen NOT to aim in that direction - and why should they be forced to ?

 

All this kind of thing, though, is why I think it is a bad idea in the first place.

[Guillotine]

I think combining playtime and collecting (i.e., # of dragons OR X time played, with a combination option or three?*) would be best; I like the idea of veteran's biome/s simply because it'd add more dragons without overwhelming the newbies, and since there would be no rares in those biome/s (as currently conceptualized) it'd be easy to give the dragons there out to people who haven't reached the level necessary for the biome/s yet.

 

*I know that it's been mentioned before, I just don't feel like digging through the thread for it.

[Amur_Rama]

I think we should have the thread archived and then wiped, since everyone who's been posting here pretty much has heard and said all their arguments, with a new poll that specifically asks what mechanism folks who have been replying to this thread want to see:

 

 

A. Length of Time in Cave (State your preferred range in a post)

B. Number of Dragons (state your ideal number in a post)

C. Some Combination of A & B (State your ratio in a post)

D. Some Other Unlocking Combination (State your Idea in detail in a post)

 

The lack of a "No! Never!" / "I Dunn Wanna Wah!" / "*Boo*HISS*Change!" option is intentional. Because that kind of voting option does not leave any room for negotiation, and we have people here who'll want some special potion/BSA/Quest option (by the way, for the record, I'd like a BSA or Quest option, to get more personal "use" out of my dragons), but if it isn't in the listing they'll vote counter. "My way or the Highway" mentality and all.

 

 

There's a very bad trend in the Suggestions forum for the posters to try to kill any idea they may personally not like, regardless of whether or not that it'll affect them much if they don't go along with it. They don't like it, then the idea should die and no one should have it, and anyone who did want it is a bad person for wanting it. In my case, if Expunge and Splash had been brought up as suggestions here, I'd have been one of the people to vote it down, because they're both useless overall, and plenty of other more useful -in my opinion BSAs- conceptualized alerady. But zombie killing and a joke BSA don't appear to have broken the game, they don't add anything, but they don't break it, so why argue with it? I don't use it, but if other people like it, that's completely fine with me and I'm glad they're enjoying it. There's suggestions on the board right now that I roll my eyes about, BUT, I do know other people would like them and would enjoy having them. And whatever gives the user base something to enjoy is something we should be aiming for. The whole point of suggestions is to try to improve the game play as a whole, not knock down ideas you don't like.

 

TJ's the only one with the right to kill something outright, it's our job to make a good presentation depicting pros cons and any technical wrangling that would need to be done to implement the idea. Trying to kill this suggestion by calling it "elitist" is nasty and has no place for trying to IMPROVE the game. Which the general idea of the suggestion would do, by solving a couple of problems that also have threads of their own in suggestion (boredom by older players who have everything already, clearing out the 500-dragon deep completed concept board faster, new lineage options for people who like lineages, new sprites for everyone!)

 

Let's figure out how to do it and let TJ decide whether he wants it. Since TJ appears to not have any issue with "elitism" as the previous posts seem to define the idea. Spontaneously-created Tinsels and Shimmers are a thing about 80 members in the game have, after all, of all of us members in our X,000,000s, 80-somethings literally have the god (of DC) given right to print their own money. If there's anything that should get flack for elitism, it's prize dragons, but to say an all-encompassing Old Member secondary cave that pretty much everyone can still get CB dragons out of by trading until they reach the level on their own(something you can't do with the prizes) is elitist? Go stick your heads back in the mud where they belong, because you don't know what that word means.

 

 

Since for the last four pages or so, we just seem to be chasing each other's tails in regards to "What gives you the right!" to want something exclusive access from the major player base. I'd say what gives folks who can the right is the same right to charge major dc currency for 2gen Holly Eggs, or 2gen Frill descendants. They were here at the right place at the right time, and they have something in particular to show for it. As to newbs being cut off. It isn't a separate cave and things can't be cross-traded. If I had access, you know what I'd be trading them for? 2gen hybrids and 2gens for checkers I'm making, seriously, any newb could open up an exchange with me for such and such eggs that I can get, for such and such eggs that they can get. Nothing will change, the trading forum is still here, and people will trade. It's just like people who can't catch trios trading hatchling sets to people who can.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

In that case the poll needs to be prefaced with a sentence like "If we were to have veterans' biomes, what would be the best option for unlocking them ?"

 

That will take out the WAAAAH NO OPTION FOR DUN WANNA brigade. Maybe.

 

 

[Amur_Rama]

;P Maybe indeed.

[ulki]

I think we should have the thread archived and then wiped, since everyone who's been posting here pretty much has heard and said all their arguments, with a new poll that specifically asks what mechanism folks who have been replying to this thread want to see:

 

 

A. Length of Time in Cave (State your preferred range in a post)

B. Number of Dragons (state your ideal number in a post)

C. Some Combination of A & B (State your ratio in a post)

D. Some Other Unlocking Combination (State your Idea in detail in a post)

 

The lack of a "No! Never!" / "I Dunn Wanna Wah!" / "*Boo*HISS*Change!" option is intentional. Because that kind of voting option does not leave any room for negotiation, and we have people here who'll want some special potion/BSA/Quest option (by the way, for the record, I'd like a BSA or Quest option, to get more personal "use" out of my dragons), but if it isn't in the listing they'll vote counter. "My way or the Highway" mentality and all.

 

 

There's a very bad trend in the Suggestions forum for the posters to try to kill any idea they may personally not like, regardless of whether or not that it'll affect them much if they don't go along with it. They don't like it, then the idea should die and no one should have it, and anyone who did want it is a bad person for wanting it. In my case, if Expunge and Splash had been brought up as suggestions here, I'd have been one of the people to vote it down, because they're both useless overall, and plenty of other more useful -in my opinion BSAs- conceptualized alerady. But zombie killing and a joke BSA don't appear to have broken the game, they don't add anything, but they don't break it, so why argue with it? I don't use it, but if other people like it, that's completely fine with me and I'm glad they're enjoying it. There's suggestions on the board right now that I roll my eyes about, BUT, I do know other people would like them and would enjoy having them. And whatever gives the user base something to enjoy is something we should be aiming for. The whole point of suggestions is to try to improve the game play as a whole, not knock down ideas you don't like.

 

TJ's the only one with the right to kill something outright, it's our job to make a good presentation depicting pros cons and any technical wrangling that would need to be done to implement the idea. Trying to kill this suggestion by calling it "elitist" is nasty and has no place for trying to IMPROVE the game. Which the general idea of the suggestion would do, by solving a couple of problems that also have threads of their own in suggestion (boredom by older players who have everything already, clearing out the 500-dragon deep completed concept board faster, new lineage options for people who like lineages, new sprites for everyone!)

 

Let's figure out how to do it and let TJ decide whether he wants it. Since TJ appears to not have any issue with "elitism" as the previous posts seem to define the idea. Spontaneously-created Tinsels and Shimmers are a thing about 80 members in the game have, after all, of all of us members in our X,000,000s, 80-somethings literally have the god (of DC) given right to print their own money. If there's anything that should get flack for elitism, it's prize dragons, but to say an all-encompassing Old Member secondary cave that pretty much everyone can still get CB dragons out of by trading until they reach the level on their own(something you can't do with the prizes) is elitist? Go stick your heads back in the mud where they belong, because you don't know what that word means.

 

 

Since for the last four pages or so, we just seem to be chasing each other's tails in regards to "What gives you the right!" to want something exclusive access from the major player base. I'd say what gives folks who can the right is the same right to charge major dc currency for 2gen Holly Eggs, or 2gen Frill descendants. They were here at the right place at the right time, and they have something in particular to show for it. As to newbs being cut off. It isn't a separate cave and things can't be cross-traded. If I had access, you know what I'd be trading them for? 2gen hybrids and 2gens for checkers I'm making, seriously, any newb could open up an exchange with me for such and such eggs that I can get, for such and such eggs that they can get. Nothing will change, the trading forum is still here, and people will trade. It's just like people who can't catch trios trading hatchling sets to people who can.

Sounds very reasonable to me.

 

It is clear there are many against this. And quite a few want this. So let's get down how it could be done and let TJ decided if he wants it or not.

[Spelunker]

I agree with everything Amut said. Please revise the poll.

[Fiona]

You need an option in your new poll for unlocking by trophy level, and to post what trophy levels that person wants.

 

I'm not sure if you need a secondary option for unlocking by number of dragons owned from each biome or not. That was a well received suggestion but it's gotten a bit buried.

[Amur_Rama]

You need an option in your new poll for unlocking by trophy level, and to post what trophy levels that person wants.

No, I don't. That Idea would fall under B entirely. Your dragon count determines you Trophy Level. Not to mention it excludes people who collect sprite families or only a pair of adults. They'll all reach Gold Trophy status eventually, because we keep getting new releases. So there's no reason to limit them in particular while they work up to it.

 

 

I'm not sure if you need a secondary option for unlocking by number of dragons owned from each biome or not. That was a well received suggestion but it's

gotten a bit buried.

 

And there's no reason for sub-dividing the secondary cave. Our Current Cave doesn't say you can't access the Desert/Jungle until you're Gold Level. A second shouldn't either.

 

Meanwhile, that's off topic and distracting. We have no say in the layout of a Veteran's Biome, like we have no say in Forests somehow also including Grassland without it being said anywhere. Or that we have 6 biomes instead of 4 or 15. That's TJ's jurisdiction.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Amut un Rama

[Drakefyre]

I think that this would most likely work best based on ACTIVE membership time. That way, anyone can get it as long as they log on once a week or so.

[Fuzzbucket]

You need an option in your new poll for unlocking by trophy level, and to post what trophy levels that person wants.

 

I'm not sure if you need a secondary option for unlocking by number of dragons owned from each biome or not. That was a well received suggestion but it's gotten a bit buried.

I think "by trophy level" would be enough.

 

And number of dragons covers that too. If you put options for "Bronze ? Silver ? Gold ? 50 dragons ? 100 dragons ?" and so on, the poll will be unwieldy, to put it mildly.

 

Number of dragons TAKES you to trophy level. If you have (um oops just a sec ) 50, you HAVE a bronze trophy. No essential difference, right ?

[Fiona]

Ignoring a past, well received idea is not treating previous opinions with much respect however.

[Rally Vincent]

Trying to kill this suggestion by calling it "elitist" is nasty and has no place for trying to IMPROVE the game.

Bold statement that a veteran's biome is an improvement. That may be your individual opinion, but hardly a fact. Why again should your opinion the valid one again and thus exclude other opinions? It's not a very good argument to say that a "no" is not allowed because you want to better the cave when someone else thinks the suggestion would make things worse.

 

There's a very bad trend in the Suggestions forum for the posters to try to kill any idea they may personally not like, regardless of whether or not that it'll affect them much if they don't go along with it.

I disagree. The trend is to make a suggestion and in lieu of having good arguments to support it, yell down everyone who dares to speak up their mind with accusations of being whiners etc et al.

 

[Guillotine]

I disagree. The trend is to make a suggestion and in lieu of having good arguments to support it, yell down everyone who dares to speak up their mind with accusations of being whiners etc et al.

I dunno, i see more people claiming that the game would be RUINED FOREVER by a suggestion than people shouting down objections. A lot of the time the people objecting just reply with something along the lines of "this sucks" or "stop ignoring my opinion" when the other posters have been perfectly reasonable.

 

Yes, there are people who are... less than reasonable... on both sides, but it feels like those objecting are louder, or at least feel that they don't need to support their feelings with anything more useful than "you suck and this idea sucks". :I At least providing a solid reason why general-you dislike an idea would help the idea evolve, instead of being more white noise in a thread. (and no, shouts of "elitism" without explaining why is not a solid reason)

[Rally Vincent]

I At least providing a solid reason why general-you dislike an idea would help the idea evolve, instead of being more white noise in a thread. (and no, shouts of "elitism" without explaining why is not a solid reason)

I did. Something new is introduced, but access is granted not by future achievement, but past actions that are manipulated to exclude others for... what reason again? It is the selection process that is elitist - or call it favoritism, if you like.

 

The only way to make this suggestion not elitist would be to make everyone have to achieve the same conditions - starting from the day of introduction. Otherwise, it'll be just a way to ensure some people have access to good stuff (and new dragons are good stuff), while others don't.

 

 

You want to see true elitism in DC? Frillsand Bright Pinks. But nobody ever complains about those.

I disagree again. Everybody playing had the chance to get Frills and Old Pinks without other conditions to fulfill. If they were still available, you wouldn't have to have 500 Dragons before being able to catch them. The only reason that they cannot be caught is because they aren't available at all - not only available to some.

[codyne]

I personally am not in favor of this idea, because I don't want to have a whole bunch of extra eggs I have to collect. A veteran's biome would be an unwanted chore for me, not a perk.

 

I already have over 2000 dragons and have mostly fulfilled my scroll goals. Now, all I have to do is grab new dragons as they come out and do lineage projects and grab random stuff from the AP that suits my fancy. I like that. It's a good balance of "Grab the new stuff!" and putzing around with projects. TJ's new plan of releasing new breeds on a montly schedule is plenty of new dragons for me. I don't need or want any more.

 

And before you say, "Well, if you don't want more new eggs, just don't collect them!" -- I'm here because I'm a collector. Having 2 CB pairs of each breed is part of my playstyle. So, yes, I'd collect them. I'd have to, to fill my scroll goals. With two wide-release breeds released each month plus one or two "veteran-biome" breeds, I'd have to spend more time grabbing new eggs and less time on lineage projects and picking up random stuff from the AP.

 

More generally, the AP would suffer, as people spend more time catching new eggs and less time cleaning the AP. The game would become more harried, with more emphasis on "Gotta catch 'em all!" and less on designing projects and "Create your own goals," which is one of the things I've always liked about this game, and one of the reasons I've stuck with it for over 4 years.

[Amur_Rama]

Bold statement that a veteran's biome is an improvement. That may be your individual opinion, but hardly a fact. Why again should your opinion the valid one again and thus exclude other opinions?

 

A fair point, but at the end of the day, it is only my opinion, and yours. You're free to ignore the Veteran's Biome and shun everything that comes out of it, but overall, is it good for the game to do that? But there you are, framing my prior post as denigrating others opinions about this suggestion.

 

And I don't believe I said anywhere that other opinions weren't allowed. If the thread was merely for discussing whether or not a Veteran Biome would be a good idea, then you'd be right. But it seems to have moved past "Good Idea?" to "How would it be carried out?" And those are two different topics. "Good Idea" has I think this idea sucks, nuuu, elites, you should take what you have and be happy, I like more sprites". That is a "Yes/No" situation. "How would it carried out?" is the poll I suggested. This current thread seems to have run it's course, but it's trying to mesh "good idea" with "how would it work", and it's a morass. This is a grey area.

 

It's not a very good argument to say that a "no" is not allowed because you want to better the cave when someone else thinks the suggestion would make things worse.

 

 

As to the exclusion of "No". You can't argue with a "No". You can't discuss a "No." A "No" has no recourse, a "No" is a corner you've just backed into. A "No" does not bend, does not consider, does not do anything except deny any new imput or a perspective. So yes, removing "No" from a poll in a gray issue is a good thing, unless what you WANT is a Binary/Black White situation, which is basically what this situation is now.

 

This is a forum for Suggestions. There's plenty of reasons to say why this is a good idea or bad idea, without resorting to a childish "No!" We're mostly intelligent people here (I would say adults, but I know we have younger members and many are well-spoken.) we should be able to discuss without attacking character, disposition, or being so egotistical that we can't at least try to consider where the other party is coming from. We're better than that.

 

For those who don't know, I work with a lot of university-level students. And a whole heaping pile of them are 26-40 year olds who think they know everything already, their opinions are extremely set, and it's common knowledge for instructors that they hate giving up their opinions; because it feels like they're giving up a part of themselves to change any long-held beliefs. I have to break up these kinds of fights all the time when they're working on scenarios or assignments designed to make them work towards a goal or end point. One person will dig their heels in and say No, and then the whole discussion comes to a screeching halt while some else's beliefs/opinions get ruffled the "No" and the "You're Being Difficult Person" start fighting, and the person who just wanted to get the assignment done thinks they can help by staying quiet or trying to play the odds by siding with someone.

 

Believe it or not, making it a rule that no one was allowed to say a flat "NO" to anything they disagreed with or didn't believe (don't even get me started with how often that happened in the Effects of Religion in Nursing Care Intervention class/project) did a lot to force them to work together to at least discuss what was going wrong in their work or the way they were handling their scenario.

 

No one has said we all have to HOLD HANDS AND AGREE AND RAINBOW SUNSHINE SPARKLES! *bishie eyes* but at the very least, they were forced to put into words why they disagreed over blood transfusions or thought everyone should accept they were going to be worm food when they die. Most of the time the problem was faulty reasoning or logic in how the situation was supposed to be handled. Or just a plain' ol' lack of empathy and the desire thereof. That still doesn't mean we all saw eye to eye, but we respected each other's opinions a hell of a lot more than this place pretends like it does. Because we had reasoning behind that thinking, even if it wasn't all agreed with.

 

I disagree. The trend is to make a suggestion and in lieu of having good arguments to support it, yell down everyone who dares to speak up their mind with accusations of being whiners etc et al.

 

Yes, yes it is. I'm kinda surprised our mods let people do that, since they have this "respect others" thing on permanent copy/pasta. Part of the problem there, I think -mind you- is that we don't have hard details. TJ is stingy with those and cracks the whip when people try to figure them out. So don't bash too hard on half-arguments, please? When people put together monster posts (like mine.... I'm so sorry and grateful to anyone who waded through this), or even the good succinct stuff but skip details we assume are common knowledge, we try to make do with what we have available.

 

In lieu of arguments, you still haven't pointed out anything in my prior post that you find a hole in in regards to this topic being cleaned and reset. Except for that bit about wanting to yell "No". But I think I explained above why I think removing the No option at least stops a lot of the knee-jerk fighting over tiny details why the main issue gets lost.

 

As I said, nothing here is up to us. It's up to TJ, disagreeing with the suggestion is fine and I disagree with so many things going on here you have no idea. But if I can't put together two hard sentences to explain why I don't like something for whatever reason, and have to fall back on attacking the person posting and not what they're saying? Then my disagreement can't be that strong anyway, if I can't think of one real reason to not like it except I don't like it. No.