Remote Biomes

[Pokemonfan13]

Angelic, the breeds counted for the biome side could only be commons, though. It would just be sad to keep people out of the coast's hidden biome until they wait a year, for example, because blusangs are wicked hard to get. [don't know what rarity they are officially, but they have to at least be uncommon level]

 

 

 

And Syphoneira, we're doing our best to NOT dictate play styles. With Angelic's new proposal all you'd have to do is collect half of the breeds in a biome [and wait a year] to get access to the hidden biome. You'd have to be pretty darn picky to not like more than half of the breeds in the biome.

 

 

 

 

 

A thought, Angelic. Do these numbers combine? Like if I was a newbie and collected 70% of the biome would I have to wait a year or would I have to wait less?

Edited March 24, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Angelic, the breeds counted for the biome side could only be commons, though. It would just be sad to keep people out of the coast's hidden biome until they wait a year, for example, because blusangs are wicked hard to get. [don't know what rarity they are officially, but they have to at least be uncommon level]

 

A thought, Angelic. Do these numbers combine? Like if I was a newbie and collected 70% of the biome would I have to wait a year or would I have to wait less?

I think that'd only really be an issue if it was REQUIRED that they come directly from the cave rather then from AP/trading, though; if it's not strictly CB required, then I'm fairly certain people could get their paws on everything without too much difficulty.

 

As for numbers combining, ummm, I guess it could if TJ wanted to code that much! Maybe somethin' like:

- 25% Biome + 1 Year active

- 50% Biome + 9 Months active

- 75% Biome + 6 Months active

- 100% Biome + 3 Months active

 

Also, if people are really worried about being messed up by lack of internet access, perhaps 'time active' could be cumulative? For example: if you're active for two months, are stuck without internet for a month, and then come back for another month, you'd count as having been active for three months. This would protect people from miseries such as losing internet access on the last day they're required to be active or such while also ensuring new players can't join, quit, and then come back in a year and be able to almost instantly gain access.

 

[Pokemonfan13]

It's only fair for time to be cumulative. Life happens, after all.

[Syphoneira]

Hi, angelicdragonpuppy

 

regarding:

 

2) Don't like having to only get X amount of breeds from each biome because that seems half-hearted. How is it proving you're an expert if you only catch, like, half the breeds from a single spot, especially if people just go for the common ones?

 

 

Lol, angelicdragonpuppy, in old adventure novels, Great White Hunter shoots lions, gets silly label - should he have to 'kill them all' in order to qualify as a 'safari expert'?

 

People specialize in entomology and many other fields - they're experts, and nobody needs to force them to 'study them all' to consider them as such.

 

Why make people miserable, by spoiling their play style or shutting them out of places?

 

What benefit does this bring?

 

Have you collected them all, or gotten close, because that fits your play style and therefore can't see why everyone else shouldn't play the way you like to?

 

Everybody wears a different shoe size, and if you were to walk a mile in theirs, you might find that you wound up with some pretty nasty blisters, lol.

 

You wouldn't suffer like that for fun in your off-time, would you?

 

 

 

Pokemonfan13

 

Thanks for the explanations but - collect 50% of the dragons from each biome and wait a YEAR?

 

...

 

Sorry, but I personally feel that Fiona's suggestions would be preferable and don't cause the same misery level that this would.

 

This is supposed to be fun for people, who tend to be fanatic collectors...

 

All these rules and restrictions, in what's always been a remarkably free world - doesn't strike me a recreational...

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@Syph read everything below plz

 

Good point. Maybe a combination of active time and breeds collected, with the fastest combo being active every day and catching some rares?

Hm yah, something like that could work. Maybe it could be like, a set of minimum and instant access requirements, rather like you have a chance to summon a GoN with one set of Trios, but the chances are far better if you have lots.

 

Time:

Min - Active for 3 Months

Max - Active for 1 Year

 

Collection:

Min - 50% of breeds from a biome

Max - 100% of breeds from a biome

 

If you did the maximum thing for one element, you would need to have done the minimum of the other to get access. For example:

- Collected 100% of breeds from a biome, but been active for only 2 Months? Gotta wait a month.

- Been active for a year, but only have 40% of the breeds from a biome? Gotta get to 50%.

 

I think access should be instant granted for those who already meet the requirements, also; no one really got all that upset when people who had 500+ dragons instantly upgraded to Gold Trophy, so I doubt people would get all that upset about people instantly getting access to these biomes, either. Plus: if you make everyone start at the same point, then you're just delaying when any 'conflict' might happen, as while the newer players of the now will be starting off at the same level as everyone else, those who come in later will still be behind those who gained access.

 

Angelic, the breeds counted for the biome side could only be commons, though.  It would just be sad to keep people out of the coast's hidden biome until they wait a year, for example, because blusangs are wicked hard to get.  [don't know what rarity they are officially, but they have to at least be uncommon level]

 

A thought, Angelic.  Do these numbers combine?  Like if I was a newbie and collected 70% of the biome would I have to wait a year or would I have to wait less?

I think that'd only really be an issue if it was REQUIRED that they come directly from the cave rather then from AP/trading, though; if it's not strictly CB required, then I'm fairly certain people could get their paws on everything without too much difficulty.

 

As for numbers combining, ummm, I guess it could if TJ wanted to code that much! Maybe somethin' like:

- 25% Biome + 1 Year active

- 50% Biome + 9 Months active

- 75% Biome + 6 Months active

- 100% Biome + 3 Months active

 

Also, if people are really worried about being messed up by lack of internet access, perhaps 'time active' could be cumulative? For example: if you're active for two months, are stuck without internet for a month, and then come back for another month, you'd count as having been active for three months. This would protect people from miseries such as losing internet access on the last day they're required to be active or such while also ensuring new players can't join, quit, and then come back in a year and be able to almost instantly gain access.

[Vhale]

That is true about the access for the gold trophy.

Blusangs are one of the reason I'm a little hesitant on the dragon specific requirement. On the surface it's cute. But if all the biomes are blocked with fogs, guardians, pebbles and pygmies, and those don't count, it suddenly becomes a bit harder. I don't think the timeline should be shorter than an average vampire bite takes to get a vamp. 30-60 days? But I don't think it should take years either.

 

Something I'll point out for those that really hate this suggestion and keep creating worst case scenarios about how it's the devil. Part of the reason this is here at all, is people that already have the dragons get a little bored. So something to think about in the future might be nice. There are multiple suggestions on the boards, some very good ones, that would do the exact same thing in far simpler terms. Such as discussing alt types where dragon hybrids could be unlocked using special circumstances like time left.

 

However, those threads don't get bumped. This one does. Perhaps it would be more productive to encourage ideas that you think are more fair in those threads.

[Slaskia]

Another thing I just realized a potential about ADP's latest proposal.

 

New Releases.

 

We are now going to be getting a new release (of at least one dragon, sometimes two) for most months out of the year (I would assume holiday dragons won't count at all for the '50% of each species in a biome thing). Each release would push the progress of the relevant biome back each time for those trying to meet at least that 50% of all breeds per biome.

 

Sure, for many that may not be an issue, but for those that have trouble collecting even 'current' breeds, I can foresee it getting frustrating to them unless they got help from kind people.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Another thing I just realized a potential about ADP's latest proposal.

 

New Releases.

 

We are now going to be getting a new release (of at least one dragon, sometimes two) for most months out of the year (I would assume holiday dragons won't count at all for the '50% of each species in a biome thing). Each release would push the progress of the relevant biome back each time for those trying to meet at least that 50% of all breeds per biome.

 

Sure, for many that may not be an issue, but for those that have trouble collecting even 'current' breeds, I can foresee it getting frustrating to them unless they got help from kind people.

Two options, here.

 

1) "Set" the requirements so that only breeds that were released before this was implemented would qualify, which would make it even easier to gain access in the long run, or

 

2) Force the new dragons to qualify. Two new breeds a month is really not that hard to keep up with, and besides, it would only affect people who were REALLY hovering on the edge (aka: people with 25% in a biome and had been active for a year, in which case they probably have enough decent dragons to breed, friends, and/or catching skill to get their hands on a new release pretty quickly anyway). I also imagine there'd be no backsliding--once you qualify, you qualify, period. If the amount of breeds ever got so massive in the future that even 25% was hard to reach (although this will likely take a very, very long time), then there could probably be a fixed amount of past breeds that qualify set then.

 

I'm open for figuring out better ways to do the collecting thing in this regard, but I am still dead set against it being time-based only. Parking in the Jungle for a year does NOT make you an expert on the Alpine.

[Fiona]

I'm rather opposed to requiring a certain number of breeds from a biome to unlock a remote biome, or to basing access on time in the game. Let me explain before you guys jump down my throat, ok?

 

First of all, the way I proposed this idea is that these deeper biomes are discovered because we've spent time in the biome. You are becoming familiar with an area. It doesn't matter what you take out of it, only that you've spent time there. So, want to unlock the underdark? It's ok then to pick up 10 strange markings eggs if you choose. Or 10 floating in a puddle eggs. You've spent time familiarizing yourself with the biome, so you'd be in a position to feel confident going deeper. It doesn't matter what eggs you take out. It's the time spent hunting there that counts.

 

Oh, but I said I didn't want the criteria to be based on time spent playing the game, didn't I? That's right. Collecting the eggs means you've spent time there. It's a good measure. Requiring TJ to somehow track how active a particular user is, is not a good measure. I'm not a coder, but my head spins at the idea that he's somehow going to have to keep a running account of whether or not each user has growing dragons on their scrolls. Think of the computer resources involved in that. And you say the cave lags now? That doesn't seem like an efficient or practical use of computer resources.

 

Further, it's getting overly complicated trying to accommodate every possible player's situation. Let's keep this simple, ok? We don't want access to be hard to earn. We don't want users feeling they have to pick up eggs of breeds they don't like. We also don't want the years we've already put into the game dismissed as if they didn't count. What would be wrong with allowing people who already have more than the requisite number from a biome to have access right away?

 

As I proposed before, each current biome has a deeper place to explore. Because we've spent time there we have become familiar enough with the area to know we can go to these deeper places. When we get there we find breeds we haven't accessed before.

 

The criteria for accessing the deeper biomes is to collect a certain number of dragons that drop there. That would take a new player a certain amount of time. By the time they've managed to collect enough to access all the remote biomes they'd be at least bronze trophy level.

 

My problem with basing each access on higher trophy levels is the length of time it would take even some veteran players to have access. If we gave access to the first one at say, Platinum level (the proposed number of dragons for that was 1000) then even TJ wouldn't have access. He's said he has less than 500 dragons. How many other long time players would be in that position? Slaskia already has said she would.

 

Yes, veteran players need further goals to work toward. But I don't think making access so high is the right bar.

[Vhale]

Sure, for many that may not be an issue, but for those that have trouble collecting even 'current' breeds, I can foresee it getting frustrating to them unless they got help from kind people.

 

Btw, I found a handy dandy spreadsheet for what is in what biome reference.

 

Link

 

Seems like Coast would be incredibly easy. Alpine would have been very challenging before the boom. I think it would require at least some fairly quick decision making now. Eggs don't sit long due to people trying to get ices. I think having it by breed would make the different biomes vary a bit in easy of doing. Pure number would be simpler as someone could pretty easily get all electrics from alpine. A variety would be trickerier. Granted, I like the rp sense of having get to known each breed. /end ramble

[injenn]

Collection:

Min - 50% of breeds from a biome

Max - 100% of breeds from a biome

 

If you did the maximum thing for one element, you would need to have done the minimum of the other to get access. For example:

- Collected 100% of breeds from a biome, but been active for only 2 Months? Gotta wait a month.

- Been active for a year, but only have 40% of the breeds from a biome? Gotta get to 50%.

 

I think access should be instant granted for those who already meet the requirements, also; no one really got all that upset when people who had 500+ dragons instantly upgraded to Gold Trophy, so I doubt people would get all that upset about people instantly getting access to these biomes, either. Plus: if you make everyone start at the same point, then you're just delaying when any 'conflict' might happen, as while the newer players of the now will be starting off at the same level as everyone else, those who come in later will still be behind those who gained access.

Going off complete collections is a bad idea. What about the people who focus on cave blockers? Cave blockers will get worse as a hundred of them counts as only "one dragon". The mint armies deserve recognition just as much as a complete collection because it all takes time and work.

 

Going off number of dragons on the scroll is more fair. It will take longer, but working for special rewards is what makes the reward special!

 

I agree that dragons we already have should count in order to keep things fair. I wouldn't want to have to collect everything all over again just to unlock the biome. This would go for joined time, too.

 

I think the "active time" idea is smart! It should count days you visited the site while logged in as well as dragons. The time should be equal to if you spent the whole time always catching and raising dragons so it's not faster or slower than doing the work.

 

I also like the idea of picking the biome you unlock. So far I want the steppes first!

Edited March 24, 2013 by injenn

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I don't think access needs to be crazy hard to get, by any means, but I still feel that only requiring ten breeds per biome is way, way too easy. Assuming a new player who never has a dragon die, never trades, and always gets different breeds as full time eggs, they could have access to all the biomes in a month and a half ((60/4) x 3 = 45 days). If a noobie can gain access to all secret biomes that quickly, then expert players can do it even quicker, and the biomes won't be all that special or secret. I mean, I guess it's ok if you just look at it from an extra layer biomes perspective rather than a secret epic biomes perspective, but I got the impression this suggestion was meant more to be the latter. Otherwise, if you just want to make easy-access extra biomes, might as well just make them instantly accessible sub-biomes rather than making them only lukewarm-level special.

Edited March 24, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Fiona]

You know that list isn't entirely accurate, right? Stripes do not fall in the desert, and the description for chickens has changed to "This egg is much smaller than the others." instead of "This egg is a third the size of other eggs."

 

I didn't check the rest carefully, but if I can spot two errors right off, how accurate is the rest of it?

 

 

And as I said, the number of eggs (not breeds) needed can be discussed. If 10 is too low, make it 15 or 20. Yes, by concentrating on earning entrance to the remote biomes a player could get access to all in 45 days. That would have to be planned pretty carefully and he'd have to be locked all the time, so he could miss out on some new releases if they weren't in the biome he's working on. He'd also have to know about the biomes and what it would take to access them. 45 days is long enough for a person to earn a bronze trophy and become quite familiar with the game.

 

But if you don't like them earning access that quickly, 15 eggs would equal 60 days spent. Two solid months playing DC before they could access all the remote places. Or 20 eggs from each biome would take 75 days. Not long enough? Go higher. Decide on a reasonable length of time it should take a new player to have access to all the new biomes and figure out how many dragons it would take to reach that.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Fiona BlueFire

[injenn]

I don't think access needs to be crazy hard to get, by any means, but I still feel that only requiring ten breeds per biome is way, way too easy.

Where did someone say you only needed to collect ten breeds to unlock a biome? I thought people were talking about hundreds of dragons raised and happy to unlock a new biome. Did I miss something?

[Pokemonfan13]

I think you have missed something. x3 There have been lots of suggestions for different ways this could work.

[Completely Different]

You've also got to realize that we're going with the absolute minimum it would take for a person to raise that number of dragons. If a newbie doesn't grab all four eggs, or manage to raise them in the minimum amount of time, or decides to go for dimorphism/alts/colour variations or even just really, really likes one species and collects them, it could take them quite a bit longer to gain access to the biome.

 

Personally, I feel like 15-20 dragons per biome would probably be a good point.

[Spelunker]

15-20 is miniscule! If they locked themselves ASAP and all their eggs hatched at 4 days, they could have access to a VETERAN'S biome in 2 weeks.

[HeatherMarie]

Some more random thoughts about this:

 

I really don't like "collection" requirements of ANY kind. Collection requirements directly affects playstyle, no way of getting around that. According to the wiki there are only 14 breeds in the desert, that's really *not* many to choose from if you have specific scroll-goals *and* a requirement of 50% of those breeds! The jungle has 29 breeds, which means you'd have to own at least 14-15 different breeds, and seriously, realistically, HOW many users are going to see 15 different breeds in that biome that they want? You can argue all you want that Trophies, GON, etc "affect playstyle", but I think this large a scale is just unnecessary. Especially when there are much less invasive options.

 

I would *love* something easy and *simple* as a way of gaining access to the "veteran" biomes. Not simple as in "everyone can get it right away", but simple as in.... simple. Straight-forward. Active time is one such idea. It messes with *no one's* playing style, and still gives a certain requirement, a certain effort, in order to gain access.

[Spelunker]

Maybe a quest, as was suggested earlier? There's some sort of timer that counts up how much time you've spent in that biome. Then, when you're there enough, it activates a quest.

[whitebaron]

Maybe a quest, as was suggested earlier? There's some sort of timer that counts up how much time you've spent in that biome. Then, when you're there enough, it activates a quest.

and there i was, kinda sad that noone read my post. thank you.

 

though now i#m kinda sad, that it got ignored that much.

[Vhale]

A quest is what a collection goal is. A quest to collect dragons. Something more complex would probably need it's own thread though because you'd need the space to explore exactly what those quests would be if it's more complex than numbers. We've basically got two concepts right now. One is a Veteran's biome concept with access based simply on overall number of dragons collected. The other is an Explorer's concept, that grants access based on which dragons are collected and number.

[Spelunker]

A quest is what a collection goal is. A quest to collect dragons.

And that's what Dragon Cave is. A game to collect dragons. Therefore, it makes sense. If your play style won't let you go in to the biome, realize this- the only thing stopping you is YOU.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

And that's what Dragon Cave is. A game to collect dragons. Therefore, it makes sense. If your play style won't let you go in to the biome, realize this- the only thing stopping you is YOU.

Well said. *Clap clap*

 

Although, I guess maybe a point system could be composed based on rarity, where you'd have to get a certain amount of 'points' to gain access. For example, a rare would be 1 point, 2 uncommons would be a point, 10 commons would be a point, and then after a certain amount of points they gain access. However, the issue with this is that they'd either have to be adjusted constantly based on ratios (work for TJ) or they'd be at risk of no longer following the ratios. For example: Stripes are fairly common right now, so if they were ranked as uncommons in terms of points, that'd make the thing too easy to fulfill.

Edited March 24, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[olympe]

I think the way you suggest this is a bit problematic. Because, if you need 10 points for any one biome to unlock the "extra", you'd only need to collect 10 metallics - which drop in all biomes - to gain access to all biomes at once. So, no, this does not work.

 

Maybe a quest is a good idea, after all. For example, it could work like this:

Quest

You need to gain 3 quest points to fulfill the quest.

 

Number of breeds:

• Collect 2 dragons from 50% of all breeds living in this biome  (not counting rares and/or unbreedables). (1 point)

• Collect 3 dragons from 80% of all breeds living in this biome (not counting rares and/or unbreedables). (2 points)

• Collect 4 dragons from all breeds living in this biome (not counting rares and/or unbreedables). (3 points)

 

Number of dragons:

• Collect 50 dragons that are exclusive to this biome. (1 point)

• Collect 100 dragons that are exclusive to this biome. (2 points)

• Collect 250 dragons that are exclusive to this biome. (3 points)

 

Hunting trips:

• Go hunting in this biome for 50 times. (Only one trip per day counts.) (1 point)

• Go hunting in this biome for 100 times. (Only one trip per day counts.) (2 points)

• Go hunting in this biome for 250 times. (Only one trip per day counts.) (3 points)

This allows you to get all points either by collecting all breeds, or by collecting lots of dragons from the biome (by creating an army of mints or whatever), or by hunting there often. Or you can combine all three methods - 50 days of hunting and collecting 50 dragons from half of all breeds dropping there. That's a goal even a newbie can achieve in less than 2 months. However, players who don't want to stuff their scrolls only need to visit a biome for 250 times to find the secret passage or whatever to the extra biome hidden in there.

Edited March 24, 2013 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

My head hurts...