Remote Biomes

[Syphoneira]

It seems that some of the people who want this wish to have qualifications arduous enough so as to present a new challenge to players who have been around a while, like to set themselves goals, and want fresh ones - but others want this group, as with others who have been around longer, to be pre-approved as already having acquired all of the dragons required, and to have this requirement apply only to new people already facing challenges and having any goals (and certainly desires) they have delayed while they collect dragons they may not even want, in order to qualify for this/each biome and its exclusive commons.

 

This period of boring routine, the raising of an arbitrary number/type of dragons, may be for a few weeks, for months or for a year; suggestions from different people vary enormously.

 

But if the purpose of this is to provide a challenge for those who want one, then we all have to start from from scratch to satisfy their need, so that the biome would remain empty until the first people began to qualify, whether weeks, months or a year (as variously suggested) were involved.

 

Would the dragons Drop in the forest if no-one was there to click?

 

And how long would it take for the Cave to run out of dragons with virtually everyone - all at once - frantically collecting as many as they could to qualify for the new biome/dragons?

 

Edit: lol, was trying to blue out part of a sentence undergoing reconstruction and the blasted thing posted on me!?????

Edited March 26, 2013 by Syphoneira

[Eldrene]

I really hope the dragons we've already raised count to opening these explorer's biomes. We've all been newbies once. Why should we have to redo all our past efforts and start again.

[olympe]

I think that the details sure need more discussion. Do we want the veteran biomes to be easy to get into, or medium hard, or very, very hard? That's one question that needs to be addressed.

 

Another question might be as to how they can be accessed. Personally, I think this quest-type of thing I picked up from someone else might be the best compromise there, as it does not enforce any one "true" way to play. (And maybe the "collect x dragons exclusive for this biome" thing needs to be opened up slightly - to "typical for this biome", as there's a huge overlap for Forest/Jungle kind of dragons.) However, the quest should be indivdiualized for each biome. Like desert:

Number of breeds:

• Collect at least one dragon from at least 7 of the following breeds: Black, Brimstone, Grey, Magi, Moonstone, Nebula, Pink, Purple, Red, Spitfire, Stone, Sunstone, Thunder, Turpentine. (1 point)

• Collect at least one dragon from at least 11 of the following breeds: Black, Brimstone, Grey, Magi, Moonstone, Nebula, Pink, Purple, Red, Spitfire, Stone, Sunstone, Thunder, Turpentine. (2 points)

• Collect at least one dragon from at least all of the following breeds: Black, Brimstone, Grey, Magi, Moonstone, Nebula, Pink, Purple, Red, Spitfire, Stone, Sunstone, Thunder, Turpentine. (3 points)

 

Number of dragons:

[*]Collect 50 dragons that are typical for the desert biome: Brimstone, Magi, Moonstone, Nebula, Red, Spitfire, Stone, Sunstone, Thunder, Turpentine. (1 point) (Not including blacks, pinks, and purples as they drop literally everywhere.)

[*]Collect 100 dragons that are typical for the desert biome: Brimstone, Magi, Moonstone, Nebula, Red, Spitfire, Stone, Sunstone, Thunder, Turpentine. (2 points)

[*]Collect 250 dragons that are typical for the desert biome: Brimstone, Magi, Moonstone, Nebula, Red, Spitfire, Stone, Sunstone, Thunder, Turpentine. (3 points)

 

Hunting trips: (as before):

Visit the desert 50/100/250 times. Only one visit per day counts. (1/2/3 points)

 

Third is the question of whether everyone should start from scratch for whatever challenge is deemed appropriate, or whether old accomplishments should count. Personally, I'm ambivalent about this, because it strongly depends on how hard the requirements are in the first place. If the requirement are really hard to meet, like collecting 1000/2000/5000 dragons, I'm all for counting what we already have. Because it's a really hard challenge, and it would be pretty hard on people who've been playing for years, meet the requirements - and get told to start all over again.

 

On the other hand, if the requirements are of no more than medium difficulty (like the quest outlined), I'd be alright with people having to start from scratch.

 

And how long would it take for the Cave to run out of dragons with virtually everyone - all at once - frantically collecting as many as they could to qualify for the new biome/dragons?

I wouldn't worry about that, as we could simply breed more if need be. Besides, people can only catch and raise so many dragons at once...

[Spelunker]

I like your idea for the visits per day, olympe!

 

Maybe have the days be split into 24 hour periods based on cave time, then you could visit any time in that 24 hour window to count for your visit that day.

[olympe]

Where is the difference? Whether you go there at 6 am every day or 6am one day, 1 am the next - it still counts only once per day, as long as you've been there.

[Slaskia]

I, for one, would absolutely not want to be forced to essentially 'start over'. I may as well release all my dragons first or get my scroll burned if that ends up being the case, as I've met the vast majority of my scroll goals. While I am not 'opposed' to collecting more of the breeds I actually really like, I am very much so to being forced to collect more of the ones I don't care much for.

 

I am not one of those types that would go into this new biome 'hoard' the new dragons and charge an arm and a leg to those that haven't made it in yet either.

[Syphoneira]

I really hope the dragons we've already raised count to opening these explorer's biomes. We've all been newbies once. Why should we have to redo all our past efforts and start again.

 

 

Apparently the point, at least to some, of making access to the proposed new biomes/dragons dependent on various criteria posted, is to give some long-time players a challenge that they would like imposed, because they've already fulfilled the goals they'd set for themselves and are bored, which would involve longer-term players being the targets of this.

 

Actually, from that viewpoint, since new players already face challenges enough and have almost certainly not yet had the opportunity to achieve any goals that they may have set for themselves, it would make sense to exempt newer people from any such criteria, allowing them immediate access to any/all biomes and new dragons, while those of us with all of the advantages of experience and multiple Incubates deal with the challenges proposed prior to gaining such access.

 

Then newer people, likely with difficulties catching and few or none of the more desirable dragons, would have something with which to trade for these with people having many dragons and, in at least some cases, epic catching abilities, rather than newer people with little or nothing to trade frantically trying to come up with suitable trade fodder for some of the new exclusive dragons we'd all want NAOW, lol.

[Slaskia]

Actually, from that viewpoint, since new players already face challenges enough and have almost certainly not yet had the opportunity to achieve any goals that they may have set for themselves, it would make sense to exempt newer people from any such criteria, allowing them immediate access to any/all biomes and new dragons, while those of us with all of the advantages of experience and multiple Incubates deal with the challenges proposed prior to gaining such access.

 

Then newer people, likely with difficulties catching and few or none of the more desirable dragons, would have something with which to trade for these with people having many dragons and, in at least some cases, epic catching abilities, rather than newer people with little or nothing to trade frantically trying to come up with suitable trade fodder for some of the new exclusive dragons we'd all want NAOW, lol.

That...would lead a number of the more 'experienced' players to start multi-scrolling, no doubt. Which we don't want....

[Shamiir]

Actually, from that viewpoint, since new players already face challenges enough and have almost certainly not yet had the opportunity to achieve any goals that they may have set for themselves, it would make sense to exempt newer people from any such criteria, allowing them immediate access to any/all biomes and new dragons, while those of us with all of the advantages of experience and multiple Incubates deal with the challenges proposed prior to gaining such access.

 

Then newer people, likely with difficulties catching and few or none of the more desirable dragons, would have something with which to trade for these with people having many dragons and, in at least some cases, epic catching abilities, rather than newer people with little or nothing to trade frantically trying to come up with suitable trade fodder for some of the new exclusive dragons we'd all want NAOW, lol.

What a brilliant twist to the plot, Syph!!

Luff it!

 

That...would lead a number of the more 'experienced' players to start multi-scrolling, no doubt.

And yes, sadly that is how some 'experienced' players would deal with it.

 

 

Personally, I'd love to have some new aims in DC. But this is not appealing.

Too much in the way of unpredictable game-changing stuff, whichever way you go. And in the end, nothing that TJs new releases are not going to provide anyway.

 

 

 

[Pokemonfan13]

To me the requirements to access the biomes would be to:

 

1. Help prevent new players from being overwhelmed by how many dragons there are to collect. They have a smaller number than the total to collect from day 1 and more are revealed to them as they complete their goals with the available dragons.

 

2. Give experienced players something more to do when their personal goals are fulfilled with the basic dragon set that is available to everyone.

 

 

So whatever mechanism is used to enable access to more biomes it should not apply to people who already meet the criteria when the feature is released. To newbies it would be something to keep in mind as they collect all these cool new dragons. To experienced players it's "I'm done collecting ___ breeds, and now I've got to get a ton more of them???!!!" Huge difference. Even if there isn't a specific breeds requirement [like most that have been recently suggested, like x breeds from each biome or x percent from each biome], just a numbers requirement, people who have already collected all the dragons they want and only really want to get new dragons that are released aren't going to be happy being forced to collect 100 or 200 or whatever new dragons when they already had more than that many in order to be able to get to the new dragons they want to be collecting.

[whitebaron]

Pf13, while I whole-heartedly agree with your sentiment, it will never be possible to get a restriction into place where NO older player has to collect at least some dragons to reach this new milestone. Yes, Absolute or other large-scroll players will probably have access to every biome no matter which limits are imposed.

 

But people who only collect various breeds or collect infrequently, will need to adapt if they want in. they had to do so with trophies as well. And some decided not to bother.

 

I still like my more "normal" quest system (you choose your requirements, then go on to fulfill them) better than olympe's mixed points one, but if already existent stuff is to be counted, than at least the gold troohy owners should gain access at once. Also all players with over 2 years of experience.

[Syphoneira]

 

 

 

One problem with new people being set goals which are not their own (and may be opposed to whatever goals they have, which may be simply to collect whatever sprite they happen to like and can obtain,) for collecting officially set numbers and types of dragons whether they like them or not in order to access a special biome with otherwise inaccessable dragons, is that they have not yet had a chance to collect the dragons they like and want or the BSA dragons which they'll need.

 

They likely wouldn't be overwhelmed by the addition of a few more dragons to the numbers already existing, but would likely simply want whatever they wanted and could get, which might or might not include the special biome dragons, but likely would, especially if everyone else was frantic for them, as we always are for new dragons.

 

They, however, would be most unlikely to be able to trade for any - and certainly couldn't take any other dragons without increasing the time required for them to access these mysterious new biomes and dragons.

 

 

Some people here have long worked toward and achieved all of their own personal goals and like to have goals to fulfill.

 

But it's most frequently been suggested that those who HAVE completed their goals and actually WANT more would likely be excepted from having to fulfil these imposed goals - so that what's been presented as a major reason for imposing these goals won't affect the ones who require them, but will adversely affect those who don't need or want them.

 

 

Many people here simply want whatever dragons they want, don't want ones they don't want, and have no particular goals beyond that, except that perhaps they plan to make lineages and/or like to gift/trade, and, of course, collect any new dragons Released NOAW, lol.

 

Having complex, time-consuming and boring dragon-collecting goals set for them in order to access COOL NEW DRAGONS! IN SPECIAL BIOMES! interferes with their plans/goals/pastime and they'd really rather not have to lock themselves with unwanted dragons during their recreation time for anywhere from weeks to a year or so in order to do so.

 

That's not fun, you get paid for boring labour in RL, if usually not much, so you want to get away from that in your free time, at least most of us do.

 

So you come here to collect the dragons you want, but in order to access the full game, you have to spend weeks, months or a year or so being bored silly just to play a game that's supposed to be fun and isn't...

 

It seems to me that very few people commenting here actually want to be in a group forced to collect perhaps hundreds of dragons they may not want, making them unable to focus on the dragons they do want, in order to access the full game...

 

So why can't the people who have created and worked to gain their own self-determined goals and who actually want more simply form a group and vow to collect these numbers and types of dragons themselves, prior to entering the proposed new biomes, and let everybody else hunt in peace in pursuit of the goal of having no goals set for them?

 

They did this before and are bored because they've completed every task, so why can't they successfully set themselves new goals like this and achieve those?

 

Seriously, most people simply don't LIKE being bored and restricted in their recreational time off.

 

Those who do can surely manage this on a voluntary basis.

[Fuzzbucket]

One problem with new people being set goals which are not their own (and may be opposed to whatever goals they have, which may be simply to collect whatever sprite they happen to like and can obtain,) for collecting officially set numbers and types of dragons whether they like them or not in order to access a special biome with otherwise inaccessable dragons, is that they have not yet had a chance to collect the dragons they like and want or the BSA dragons which they'll need.

 

They likely wouldn't be overwhelmed by the addition of a few more dragons to the numbers already existing, but would likely simply want whatever they wanted and could get, which might or might not include the special biome dragons, but likely would, especially if everyone else was frantic for them, as we always are for new dragons.

 

They, however, would be most unlikely to be able to trade for any - and certainly couldn't take any other dragons without increasing the time required for them to access these mysterious new biomes and dragons.

 

 

Some people here have long worked toward and achieved all of their own personal goals and like to have goals to fulfill.

 

But it's most frequently been suggested that those who HAVE completed their goals and actually WANT more would likely be excepted from having to fulfil these imposed goals - so that what's been presented as a major reason for imposing these goals won't affect the ones who require them, but will adversely affect those who don't need or want them.

 

 

Many people here simply want whatever dragons they want, don't want ones they don't want, and have no particular goals beyond that, except that perhaps they plan to make lineages and/or like to gift/trade, and, of course, collect any new dragons Released NOAW, lol.

 

Having complex, time-consuming and boring dragon-collecting goals set for them in order to access COOL NEW DRAGONS! IN SPECIAL BIOMES! interferes with their plans/goals/pastime and they'd really rather not have to lock themselves with unwanted dragons during their recreation time for anywhere from weeks to a year or so in order to do so.

 

That's not fun, you get paid for boring labour in RL, if usually not much, so you want to get away from that in your free time, at least most of us do.

 

So you come here to collect the dragons you want, but in order to access the full game, you have to spend weeks, months or a year or so being bored silly just to play a game that's supposed to be fun and isn't...

 

It seems to me that very few people commenting here actually want to be in a group forced to collect perhaps hundreds of dragons they may not want, making them unable to focus on the dragons they do want, in order to access the full game...

 

So why can't the people who have created and worked to gain their own self-determined goals and who actually want more simply form a group and vow to collect these numbers and types of dragons themselves, prior to entering the proposed new biomes, and let everybody else hunt in peace in pursuit of the goal of having no goals set for them?

 

They did this before and are bored because they've completed every task, so why can't they successfully set themselves new goals like this and achieve those?

 

Seriously, most people simply don't LIKE being bored and restricted in their recreational time off.

 

Those who do can surely manage this on a voluntary basis.

I agree with Syphoneira. I have my own goals. Sure I'd WANT other dragons if they were around - but not so that I have to skew my playstyle dramatically (and it would be dramatically) to get them. Like whoever - there are a couple of dragons that are only on my scroll at all for the sake of completeness, for instance. To be forced to collect one I felt like that about would NOT encourage me to play more.

 

And the idea of being forced to "start over" in some way to gain access to places I would really have to THINK about to gain access would really hack me off. Selfish ? Sure. And why not

[Pokemonfan13]

Pf13, while I whole-heartedly agree with your sentiment, it will never be possible to get a restriction into place where NO older player has to collect at least some dragons to reach this new milestone. Yes, Absolute or other large-scroll players will probably have access to every biome no matter which limits are imposed.

 

But people who only collect various breeds or collect infrequently, will need to adapt if they want in. they had to do so with trophies as well. And some decided not to bother.

 

I still like my more "normal" quest system (you choose your requirements, then go on to fulfill them) better than olympe's mixed points one, but if already existent stuff is to be counted, than at least the gold troohy owners should gain access at once. Also all players with over 2 years of experience.

That's fine. If an experienced player's scroll is missing a few dragons or whatever then they should have to collect them before being allowed in. That's different from making everyone start from scratch.

[egwenna]

I'm not a fan of anything that tells me I *have* to collect any number of any dragon. If it is 'x' number from an entire biome, that I could do, but there are plenty of breeds I have little interest in and I'm not dedicating an egg slot to them. :-p

 

I'm not sure I see the point of an additional biome that drops regular eggs unless it displays different eggs at every refress. That would be useful. I have some commons I have to wait and wait for.

 

It would also be good if the extra, 'veterans' biome would drop regular during the holidays. I have all the old holidays, I can't have more (which is a whole seperate rant), storms have wiped out the last two Halloweens for me, so I don't get to enjoy the one Holiday I can get more of, and which makes holidays kind of boring once I have the new egg.

 

So, I can see one new biome, not sure I can be sold on three.

[Syphoneira]

I'm not a fan of anything that tells me I *have* to collect any number of any dragon. If it is 'x' number from an entire biome, that I could do, but there are plenty of breeds I have little interest in and I'm not dedicating an egg slot to them. :-p

 

I'm not sure I see the point of an additional biome that drops regular eggs unless it displays different eggs at every refress. That would be useful. I have some commons I have to wait and wait for.

 

It would also be good if the extra, 'veterans' biome would drop regular during the holidays. I have all the old holidays, I can't have more (which is a whole seperate rant), storms have wiped out the last two Halloweens for me, so I don't get to enjoy the one Holiday I can get more of, and which makes holidays kind of boring once I have the new egg.

 

So, I can see one new biome, not sure I can be sold on three.

 

 

Hello, egwenna!

 

The biomes have been most often suggested as ones dropping eggs exclusive to those biomes and those who could access them.

 

Those who failed to qualify could not enter the biomes or attempt to catch these eggs themselves, but would have to obtain them from those who had access.

[Pokemonfan13]

To me it would make the most sense for those who don't have access to simply wait until they do, rather than trying to trade for the eggs. They'd have plenty of other new eggs to collect, and there isn't any rush. And remember that the eggs in the hidden biomes would all be commons, so it wouldn't be justifiable to charge a high price, especially since the new player who just has to have breed x from the hidden biome right now would probably be able to find a nice person to gift them a CB.

[Shamiir]

..... so it wouldn't be justifiable to charge a high price, especially since the new player who just has to have breed x from the hidden biome right now would probably be able to find a nice person to gift them a CB.

But you know there are those who would charge a high price, along with those who gift.

[Pokemonfan13]

But how many would pay the high price? Just because someone asks for 3 CB blacks in return doesn't mean anyone will be willing to give them 3 CB blacks, especially when there definitely would be gifting services giving away CBs.

[whitebaron]

But how many would pay the high price? Just because someone asks for 3 CB blacks in return doesn't mean anyone will be willing to give them 3 CB blacks, especially when there definitely would be gifting services giving away CBs.

 

Also, there will ALWAYS be those who charge high prices, and those who just gift.

Once a "newbie" can catch what amounts to "an arm and a leg" to trade - they definitely are NOT newbies anymore.

 

But, and I can't stress this enough - The hidden biomes should have fixed ratios. Else, one breed WILL go blusang on us.

[Pokemonfan13]

Fixed ratios would work for the cave drops, but how would it work with breeding? I guess it could be that the cave drops are fixed, and there are "normal" ratios for breeding, so if a breed is overpopulated it would be the breeding that is hurt, not the CBs.

[olympe]

Oh, fixed ratios for breeding would be quite easy to implement. All you have to do is supply a breeding success chance for every breed that is over 0%, but no higher than 50%.

 

If you breed two dragons - let's say a silver and a guardian - they might have the following breeding success rates:

Silver: 3%

Guardian: 45%

 

Now, a random number between 1 and 100 is generated. If it's either 1, 2 or 3, you 'll get a silver egg. If it's anything from 4 to 48 (=45+3), you'll get a guardian egg. If the random number is 49 or higher, you won't get any eggs at all.

 

Of course, in this example, if you bred two guardians together, you'd have a 90% chance of producing a (guardian) egg.

[ulki]

Oh, fixed ratios for breeding would be quite easy to implement. All you have to do is supply a breeding success chance for every breed that is over 0%, but no higher than 50%.

 

If you breed two dragons - let's say a silver and a guardian - they might have the following breeding success rates:

Silver: 3%

Guardian: 45%

 

Now, a random number between 1 and 100 is generated. If it's either 1, 2 or 3, you 'll get a silver egg. If it's anything from 4 to 48 (=45+3), you'll get a guardian egg. If the random number is 49 or higher, you won't get any eggs at all.

 

Of course, in this example, if you bred two guardians together, you'd have a 90% chance of producing a (guardian) egg.

That would be fixed for one person, but not for the whole cave.

 

If this was the success rates for all breedings, ratios could get off balance when all people breed their silver dragons but no others (thats an extrem example).

You needed to have success rates based on all breedings made to have fixed ratios for all dragons over all breedings.

And I do not see a way to make this happen

[~!~]

That would be fixed for one person, but not for the whole cave.

 

If this was the success rates for all breedings, ratios could get off balance when all people breed their silver dragons but no others (thats an extrem example).

You needed to have success rates based on all breedings made to have fixed ratios for all dragons over all breedings.

And I do not see a way to make this happen

This shouldn't be a problem unless TJ's enabled SilverxSilver breeding since I left.

 

If he has, or if he ever does in the future, I don't see how there's any way to fix it. If everyone breeds only Silver dragons, there will only be Silver dragons bred and that's all there is to it. No matter how much you lower the chance due to an overpopulation of Silvers, nothing will ever make up for it if people only breed Silvers.

 

Although, I've just come back from Hiatus, and I'm not sure what "go Bluesang" implies here. I might be missing something here, but to me, it seems not to matter too much if there are fixed ratios for breeding. "Common" versus "rare" in the context of DC should deal with how difficult it is to get a dragon, not necessarily how many of them there are in the cave. So what if someone decides to breed ten million Silvers, and isn't penalized for it? The only problem I could see is that they could flood the AP and undervalue bred Silvers, but I don't see that happening: the chance of breeding a Silver even from a purebred pairing is just too low.

[Fuzzbucket]

This shouldn't be a problem unless TJ's enabled SilverxSilver breeding since I left.

 

?

 

Silver x silver breeding IS enabled. Also gold x gold...

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/QTuNq

Edited March 28, 2013 by fuzzbucket