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Remote Biomes

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This shouldn't be a problem unless TJ's enabled SilverxSilver breeding since I left.

 

If he has, or if he ever does in the future, I don't see how there's any way to fix it. If everyone breeds only Silver dragons, there will only be Silver dragons bred and that's all there is to it. No matter how much you lower the chance due to an overpopulation of Silvers, nothing will ever make up for it if people only breed Silvers.

 

Although, I've just come back from Hiatus, and I'm not sure what "go Bluesang" implies here. I might be missing something here, but to me, it seems not to matter too much if there are fixed ratios for breeding. "Common" versus "rare" in the context of DC should deal with how difficult it is to get a dragon, not necessarily how many of them there are in the cave. So what if someone decides to breed ten million Silvers, and isn't penalized for it? The only problem I could see is that they could flood the AP and undervalue bred Silvers, but I don't see that happening: the chance of breeding a Silver even from a purebred pairing is just too low.

Rare/rare breeding is possible, and it has been for at least a couple of months now.

 

That said, a 5% chance of an egg (to use the numbers provided) is really low. Go to random.org and try rolling 1-100 a bunch of times, and see how many times you get a number less than six (I've had to do something similar for Pern RP sites, and I've only once gotten a number that low in over 70 tries). I don't think you'll see this huge flood of rares with that setup, even if people only breed their rares ever (unlikely; I don't think people have that much patience, given the high failure rate), and CB rares would still be pretty valuable.

 

I think by "go Blusang" they mean that a dragon that's not "supposed" to be rare winds up being extremely hard to find because of ratios. But I'm not sure.

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Fixed ratios would work for the cave drops, but how would it work with breeding? I guess it could be that the cave drops are fixed, and there are "normal" ratios for breeding, so if a breed is overpopulated it would be the breeding that is hurt, not the CBs.

i would have fixed breeding chances instead of ratio-based ones for the "veteran" breeds.

 

If that's a bonus for veterans that their veteran commons breed well and consistantly - well, so be it. I have no problem whatsoever if someone would want to do a 57th gen veteran pb even gen lineage. As long as breeding chances are similar to those of normal commons, there will still be refusals, no interests and no eggs, so it seems to me like no big deal.

 

 

As for going blusang: Yes, that's exactly what i mean. While neither perceived as that valuable, nor usually traded as that valuable, CB Blusangs are a lot harder to get currently than CB Silvers, and probably a little harder than CB Golds. So, this makes them after unobtainable dragons and their offspring, possibly the rarest breed in DC. Nds many people know how to make, but blusangs you can't make.

 

@Olympe: There's no need to fix or change anything in how breeding of veterans works, if it is based on the then fixed ratios like normal breeding does. They'll just consistently breed like commons, overpopulated or not. As pointed out above, I see no problem with that.

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A lot of agreement there. Whether it was just one biome, or multiple more in-depth/experienced ones, it would allow for a larger number of dragons to be released, without overwhelming the newer players.

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Exactly, and it would give older players something to do besides lineages once the "collect 'em all" aspect of the game involves only catching their quota of new releases.

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Exactly, and it would give older players something to do besides lineages once the "collect 'em all" aspect of the game involves only catching their quota of new releases.

i don't think it would -- i'm still on the 'collect 'em all' phase because i like collecting any old dragon, except balloons -- won't pick balloons up (my play style). i'm also modifying names of dragons slowly, so there's a LOT to keep me coming back -- and i eventually always come back.

 

but this idea doesn't really sit all that well with me, although i do think in practice it could be good. i just want to have to collect a dozen new dragons and then if i find one i like, collect that and be forced into the backwash of collecting only that and having 20 more dragons crop up while i was busy collecting a certain breed. that's not really fun, imo, since i would like to get all of the dragons and go into a frantic rush mode to get them all a few days after i've learned about them. it confuses my brain. :c

 

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Perhaps the Veteran Biomes would start out with just a few dragons, then slowly, they'd add more, but still at a much more frequent rate than the regular cave. (perhaps 3 every mid-month.)

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I personally think 6 biomes with similar habitat to the current ones are best. It doesn't makes sense to have 6 biomes to split up the habitats as default and then lump them all back again for the single veteran biome.

 

To me the biggest thing that needs to be solved is how do we gain access? There's everything from a simple "collect x number of dragons or be a member for y amount of time" to really complex ones. I personally think the simpler the better for this. If nothing else, it would be a pain for the veteran players to have to jump through the same hoops as the newbies. Those hoops would just be something for newbies to keep in mind while they do their collecting and something that they'd probably do eventually without trying, but oldies who are done collecting would have to specifically go and do those things, which makes them a lot more of a pain. So unless there's a way to count what oldies already did it's rather unfair to them.

 

My vote is for the biomes to start out decently well stocked. TJ is going to have a bunch of dragons to release when he's done with the completed list cleanout, so why not dump a good number into starting out the vets biomes? After that have a somewhat leisurely release schedule for them, at least until a reasonable amount of time has been given for people to catch up, and maybe then increase the releases a bit.

Edited by Pokemonfan13

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I still don't like the idea of giving "veterans" exclusive biomes, especially if it would be something where, once implemented, a "veteran" would have instant access and newer players would have to work for. If people have to work for it, I think everyone should have to work for it, and it should be something that a newer player and a "veteran" player would take the same amount of time to complete, or that wouldn't take a newer player more than a few months at most.

 

With this concept of "veteran" biomes it still comes off as 'I've been here longer and therefore have more of a right to better things than you because you're new' to me.

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I agree with PF.

 

I am in total support of some sort of "x amount of dragons and/or y amount of time gets you access" thing, where a large number of dragons would gain you access, but so would a smaller number of dragons plus a larger amount of time.

 

ETA: Shikaru, I think that this would have to be something like the trophies, where larger scrolls were instantly given the extra slots.

Edited by Spelunker

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With this concept of "veteran" biomes it still comes off as 'I've been here longer and therefore have more of a right to better things than you because you're new' to me.

Unlike CB Holidays and metals, eh?

 

I think the easiest method is an annual opening. Perhaps 1 new biome per year. But I like the collect dragons per biome method better as it lets people actively put an effort towards it. And choose which one they'd like to have open.

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Unlike CB Holidays and metals, eh?

Holidays breed every year and aren't hard to obtain, they may not be CB but you still have access to that dragon breed just as easily as anyone else at the time. Same with metals, which...why bring them up? How does someone who has been here longer have an advantage in catching them? The only thing I could see is the more egg slots, but I don't believe that effects someone's ability to catch a metal aside from potentially having more slots if they don't have eggs already.

 

I think that everyone, regardless of how long they have been here, should have the same access to the same things at the same time. Holidays follow this, metals follow this, even the raffle does. Throwing in veteran's biomes takes away that and says that people who have been around longer get special access to an area that others don't.

Edited by shikaru

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I still don't like the idea of an 'exclusive' biome, but if we must do it, I'd rather access be not based on any further dragon collecting (e.g. 'clean slate', everyone has to collect x number of dragons again). I must again state that there are folks (like me) that have rather specific scroll goals and I would not enjoy being forced to collect more dragons of breeds I've already got to my goal with.

 

Not to mention it wouldn't make much sense to announce a new biome with an 'access restriction' if no one can access it for the X amount of time while everyone meets the requirements if they are forced to 'start from scratch' essentially.

Edited by Slaskia

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I think that everyone, regardless of how long they have been here, should have the same access to the same things at the same time. Holidays follow this, metals follow this, even the raffle does. Throwing in veteran's biomes takes away that and says that people who have been around longer get special access to an area that others don't.

This. I don't think it will attract anyone - and I think it might well drive people away.

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Part of my thinking for suggesting very low requirements for access was that we do want people to quickly have access. By the time someone has 10 adults or frozen hatchlings from a biome they've gotten the hang of the game. So, while still new, they're not quite so new that they don't have an idea what breeds are what or where to look for things. In the common sense of the word I don't know that most would call them "veterans" but in DC terms I think it still applies.

 

And for what it's worth, I don't see any reason why dragons that drop in multiple biomes can't count for any biome they drop in. I don't think we need to worry about whether that purple was caught in the forest or not for it to count towards access to the Deep Forest biome.

 

I'd say it's likely that more than 95% of the active players would already have access to the remote biomes if it were implemented the way I suggested today. The few who wouldn't would be so new they are still figuring out how to play anyway, and all breeds are new.

 

I don't think we want "elite" biomes. I think we want "you've been here long enough to know what you're doing, so you may want to go deeper" biomes. biggrin.gif

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Holidays breed every year and aren't hard to obtain, they may not be CB but you still have access to that dragon breed just as easily as anyone else at the time. Same with metals, which...why bring them up? How does someone who has been here longer have an advantage in catching them? The only thing I could see is the more egg slots, but I don't believe that effects someone's ability to catch a metal aside from potentially having more slots if they don't have eggs already.

 

I think that everyone, regardless of how long they have been here, should have the same access to the same things at the same time. Holidays follow this, metals follow this, even the raffle does. Throwing in veteran's biomes takes away that and says that people who have been around longer get special access to an area that others don't.

At least to me the point isn't "We've been around longer, we get special stuff!", it's "We're bored because we've collected everything.... Oh, cool, more stuff to collect!"

 

That's why I find it strange that people seem to be trying to make the access practically instant to newbies. To me the reason they're separate is so the newbies aren't overwhelmed by quite so many species to get, an to try to have the new biomes open roughly when they're finishing up with collecting in the default biomes, but on the early side obviously.

 

 

 

And for this example I'm going to make up a totally silly achievement to unlock them. Say you have to collect 40 green colored dragons and 30 blue and 30 red.

 

If things start from scratch the newbie has a great advantage in the arduousness of the task. Why? Because they're collecting new dragons! All they have to do is keep in mind the requirements, perhaps shifting their priorities a touch to gain access sooner, but not much more. At least some veterans, like me, only collect new releases and the occasional exception they need for specific reasons. Other veterans are only collecting their favorite sprites, and if they happen not to want any more red colored dragons, too bad, they still have to raise 30 of them, even if they have a completed collection of 200 red colored dragons.

 

If what you've already done is counted it's a lot fairer. Sure, if a veteran dislikes red colored dragons and don't have 30 of them they still have to raise enough to make up the difference, but everyone has that pressure.

 

And yes, my example is silly, but the idea applies to every requirement posted.

 

 

One of the big things I've noticed here is not forcing people to break their play style with the requirements, such as not specifically requiring 10 water walkers and 10 deep seas, but instead requiring 20 from the coast biome. Well, forcing vets to start from scratch definitely breaks their play style with almost every requirement and almost every play style.

 

And yet again, I'm only advocating giving vets instant access if they have already met the requirements. If the requirements is 40 dragons from each biome and the person only has 30 from the volcano they need to collect 10 dragons.

 

That's also why I don't really like suggestions that use things that hasn't been kept track of previously, like visits to the biome. It's something that newbies who are hunting a lot wouldn't even really have to actively do. But not all veterans even hunt in the cave any more, so they would have to specifically go each day and click each biome, which is silly busywork rather than something meaningful.

 

 

Obviously I'm using the worst case scenario veteran. I'm sure there are some who would find requirements like have been suggested no problem at all, even if everyone starts from scratch. But it's the worst case scenario veteran that has to be taken into account.

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That's why I find it strange that people seem to be trying to make the access practically instant to newbies. To me the reason they're separate is so the newbies aren't overwhelmed by quite so many species to get, an to try to have the new biomes open roughly when they're finishing up with collecting in the default biomes, but on the early side obviously.

I don't think it's right to limit their ability to get something that someone else can get. (I'm more okay if it's a low number that they could very easily reach quickly, but not something that would takes months or more).

 

My reason? Say you just started dragcave, you go on the forums and look at all the suggestions. You find a dragon you really like the concept of, if you had to pick one dragon you wanted to see it would be that one. Then it gets announced that this dragon is going into the game and you get really excited....only to find out that it's being released in a special biome you can't get to without working towards it for several months.

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Having goals you can't meet immediately is great for encouraging long term play. For example, in Pokémon, when you start out you don't have access to every Pokémon out there. You have to play and unlock access to areas in order to get to them. If someone looked at a guide and was like "Wow, I want a Mesprit!" -- they can't get that until they finish the game. It's not possible. (Except via trading, which is actually far more feasible in DC than it is in Pokémon, given how broken the GTS is. ^^;;)

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Having goals you can't meet immediately is great for encouraging long term play.

It depends on what the goal is: some such goals may be more likely to have the person quit before they even get close. One person's 'challenge' is another's 'hair-pulling frustration', after all.

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Given that this is designed to not be hard to get [no "you must have x number of golds"] and to not force people to break their play styles to gain access, I'd say that the likelihood of it being a "hair-pulling frustration" is very low, unless the person is the type that requires instant gratification with everything, and I don't think we should be overly focused on them anyways.

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in warcraft, we have these people who are called "special snowflakes" - the people who say theyre better at the game / played longer, so certain things should be attributed to them and no one else.

 

I do not feel this is the same thing. I feel, especially if its just based on say, number of dragons... (trophy or whatever) this is really just a case of getting a massive release out there (to clear up room on that completed dragon list - i am assuming we're doing biomes of new dragons? hehehehehehe... ), whilst also not overloading new kids.

 

Everyone has a chance to get there eventually, no matter what kind of dragons theyre growing. Heck, theyd even have a chance at eggs sooner, I'd wager. There's the AP (who wouldnt even just dump random eggs into the AP once off cooldown just because?) and gifting threads.

 

I think I cautiously support the idea, if we go on something like trophies. Just to release more dragons out there, clear out the finished list (theres dragons on there for like three years, yall!) and if the dragons arent going to be discontinued quickly - so everyone ends up getting a chance.

Edited by girlgamerjen

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Oh, and for the example of someone who is totally in love with a dragon that gets released in the vets biomes and they're nowhere close to reaching it... Since it has been stated multiple times that any dragon there would be common, maybe uncommon at the most, I guarantee that they will be able to find them in the AP and be gifted them and trade for them. Catching them in the cave is not the only way to get a dragon.

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I would think we should aim somewhere between "speshul snowflakes" and "entitled Noobs" but err on the side of "let's get this open for larger numbers of people" rather than making the requirements high. However, I don't think it's a bad thing for those who've been loyal to the game for awhile to have access to things brand new players don't get, as a reward for our loyalty. It shouldn't a big difference, or a huge thing, but just as we have a few more egg slots, I don't think access to another place to hunt is bad. Just let's not put it out of reach of most players.

 

And you can bet that if a new player posted in the news thread for the release saying, "Oh, those are totally gorgeous. I only have x number more to collect from the forest and I can get access. I can hardly wait!" or some other similar non-complaining but expressing admiration post, that there would be people sending them eggs.

 

I have personally found that while the forums tend to be full of drama and complaining, they are also filled to the brim with people with generous hearts. In fact, I think the generous and the kind far outweigh the complaining, entitled and dramatic among us.

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And you can bet that if a new player posted in the news thread for the release saying, "Oh, those are totally gorgeous. I only have x number more to collect from the forest and I can get access. I can hardly wait!" or some other similar non-complaining but expressing admiration post, that there would be people sending them eggs.

 

I have personally found that while the forums tend to be full of drama and complaining, they are also filled to the brim with people with generous hearts. In fact, I think the generous and the kind far outweigh the complaining, entitled and dramatic among us.

oh, totally agreed. Over half the fun of this game is gifting fun/nice gifts to people, or glomping, or even AP gifting.

 

Especially if the new biomes were JUST new releases, and only even common-uncommon dragons.. why -wouldn't- there be new kids getting gifted? Heck, Ive bred all my royal crimsons since they grew up straight into the AP for people to pick up. Just testing out random second generation colorings for lineages.

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The less "reward" based suggestion that people were playing with (before it also got buried by philisophical arguments) was along the lines of seasonal dragons or migration. Basically, Seasonal dragons hold up their worth and interest pretty well given their limited release period. Seems like it would be possible to release biomes under the same concept. So the access would be open but not all at once, for anyone.

 

The BSAish access solution was that you needed X number of dragons (like summon) from that Biome. Once activated, they would open access to that biome for a week. Useable once a month, or some such.

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