ANSWERED:New Trophies

[nynaevesilverwind]

Thank you.

 

I also think your post about staggering the additions is a good idea. I know there will be players (and NOT me!) who will pass the 10,000 level within the next year, so levels up to 20,000 now really aren't that unrealistic. I'm running about 120 dragons a month, and while I will top out around 3500 by the end of this year, apparently some have found ways to add 250 dragons or more in a month. I think someone actually managed about 450 dragons in ONE MONTH! At this point, I can't do those kinds of numbers, and I don't know that I'd even want to try. I do have a rl.

 

However, this is the future of the Cave, and the small estimates don't work for me. It will still take a little while to reach Mithril, whether its 40,000 or 50,000, but there are people who will get there as fast as they can.

 

ETA: Just saw the revised first post and wanted to add a hug for all the rl stuff. i know what you are going through! <3

On the IRL stuff - Thanks, it's not been an easy time. I'm the second oldest, I've got two younger sisters, but they're 16 and 18 respectively, so they weren't really able to deal with all the paperwork side of things. Which meant I wasn't really allowed to grieve because I had to keep on top of things. Not a very pleasant situation all around.

 

I think that staggering would make the most sense, as it would give TJ more time to code the bigger ones and handle the inevitable explosion of eggs that will result from people able to get more (if limits went up), and from people trying to get the new trophies.

[edwardelricfreak]

Just because some of us don't agree with you, it doesn't mean you should leave, otherwise how there will be argument and growth of various ideas? The only reason my list is used throughout the first post is because in order to have an easily readable list of ideas, they need to be using the same set of levels. That's why there are so many ideas listed, so that we can look at the pros and cons of all of them. Eventually, we'll probably look at compromise ideas as well, but right now fighting so hard for your exact idea is counter productive to what we're trying to achieve here.

I don't want my exact idea. But I really think anything over 10k is just too large. Even in the future, it's going to take several years before 50k should be discussed...I don't think you need to plan THAT far ahead at all. That's what I mean.

 

Staggering would be fine, but I really don't think such large numbers need to be anticipated for at least 5 years or so, when most of the people are actually at 5k+ dragons or so.

 

And you really didn't hint (at least originally, I haven't checked the first post since you bumped the thread with an update) that those numbers were for the far future...

[nynaevesilverwind]

I don't want my exact idea. But I really think anything over 10k is just too large. Even in the future, it's going to take several years before 50k should be discussed...I don't think you need to plan THAT far ahead at all. That's what I mean.

 

Staggering would be fine, but I really don't think such large numbers need to be anticipated for at least 5 years or so, when most of the people are actually at 5k+ dragons or so.

 

And you really didn't hint (at least originally, I haven't checked the first post since you bumped the thread with an update) that those numbers were for the far future...

It's something that I threw out there the other day because of all the objections to having the higher numbers immediately. I thought I'd made it clear initially that I was looking at trophies to get us through the next several years, because I know that I don't want to reach a trophy and be right back where I was after getting my gold. Since I hadn't I clarified that in the first post. I figure it'll be around 4 years before the most dedicated users get close enough that 50,000 dragons looks like a real possibility. If i continue at my current rate of growth, and we get even a single new egg slot and three new hatchie slots, then I could conceivably reach 25,000 in about 3.5 years because of how many things I freeze and the fact that I often ask for hatchies in trades.

 

And I still don't understand why you don't want the highest level people to have even a single trophy to work for. I think that even if there would only be 15-20 users working on the highest trophy released, then it would be worth it to have that trophy because of the enjoyment that they would get. I don't think people should be penalized by not getting the excitement of a new trophy along with the rest of the site, just because they've worked hard on their scrolls. Shouldn't they be getting rewarded for that instead?

Edited November 24, 2013 by nynaevesilverwind

[HeatherMarie]

And I still don't understand why you don't want the highest level people to have even a single trophy to work for. I think that even if there would only be 15-20 users working on the highest trophy released, then it would be worth it to have that trophy because of the enjoyment that they would get. I don't think people should be penalized by not getting the excitement of a new trophy along with the rest of the site, just because they've worked hard on their scrolls. Shouldn't they be getting rewarded for that instead?

But that's just it, you (and all of us) have *no idea* that *anyone* would be "working on" those highest levels. Ever. Let me point out once again that a "power user" that gets, say, even 2k dragons per year onto their scroll will still be at LEAST 15 years away from that 50k trophy right now (if we *generously* assume there is actually someone out there who has 10k dragons already).

 

So unless we have hard statistics about the largest scrolls as of now, we don't know that your so-called "highest level people" even exist. From where I'm looking, the highest level that anyone would possibly be shooting for, even a few years down the line, is maaaaybe 25k. Maybe.

 

Even if this suggestion is supposed to be for the long-term, if no one within the next 10 years would be able to reach that trophy, I think that's just a bit too much.

[nynaevesilverwind]

But that's just it, you (and all of us) have *no idea* that *anyone* would be "working on" those highest levels. Ever. Let me point out once again that a "power user" that gets, say, even 2k dragons per year onto their scroll will still be at LEAST 15 years away from that 50k trophy right now (if we *generously* assume there is actually someone out there who has 10k dragons already).

 

So unless we have hard statistics about the largest scrolls as of now, we don't know that your so-called "highest level people" even exist. From where I'm looking, the highest level that anyone would possibly be shooting for, even a few years down the line, is maaaaybe 25k. Maybe.

 

Even if this suggestion is supposed to be for the long-term, if no one within the next 10 years would be able to reach that trophy, I think that's just a bit too much.

Well, how about this. I'll add in the first post a plea for anyone who has a large scroll to allow us to link it in the thread, and also asking everyone to keep their eyes out for huge scrolls as they move about the site. That way we can then ask those users if they will allow us to use their scrolls as examples, and thus try to compile data on just how many super collectors there are out there. Having more information can only help our desire for more trophies over all.

[dragongrrl]

But that's just it, you (and all of us) have *no idea* that *anyone* would be "working on" those highest levels. Ever. Let me point out once again that a "power user" that gets, say, even 2k dragons per year onto their scroll will still be at LEAST 15 years away from that 50k trophy right now (if we *generously* assume there is actually someone out there who has 10k dragons already).

 

So unless we have hard statistics about the largest scrolls as of now, we don't know that your so-called "highest level people" even exist. From where I'm looking, the highest level that anyone would possibly be shooting for, even a few years down the line, is maaaaybe 25k. Maybe.

 

Even if this suggestion is supposed to be for the long-term, if no one within the next 10 years would be able to reach that trophy, I think that's just a bit too much.

Check rubyshoes's posts in the Congrats thread. Check some of the scrolls posted on TJ's site or the DC Records thread, and check Whitebaron's one month record! =)

[HeatherMarie]

Check rubyshoes's posts in the Congrats thread. Check some of the scrolls posted on TJ's site or the DC Records thread, and check Whitebaron's one month record! =)

I went through quite a few pages of the Congrats thread, and besides rubyshoes the highest number of dragons I saw were a few people in the 3k range. Based on the DC records there are a couple people in the 4k range.

 

As has been said before, I believe by Fiona, people like rubyshoes are very very much the exception. *Most* DC users are nowhere *near* that number. And even 7k+ is a FAR cry from the 50k trophy being proposed.

 

I'm not against higher trophies. I'm against releasing trophies so high that no one in the game will be able to even get it for 10+ years. That's like "releasing" a dragon and then saying no one is allowed to have one for 3 years. It's just.... doesn't make sense.

 

Now, if 5 years or so down the road, it turns out people *are* getting close to 50k, I totally wouldn't mind a trophy for that. But planning out a trophy that many years in advance seems like *seriously* jumping the gun. What's wrong with releasing a couple trophies that people can realistically get soonish, and then when scroll start reaching that high we can propose more?

[dragongrrl]

My math is pretty good, and I saw several users in the 5-6000 range, and quite a few at 4600-5000, as well as another at 7000, in addition to rubyshoes, so I'm wondering why we aren't connecting on this. I am very interest in seeing trophies added up to 10,000 now, and I'd really like one at 5000, just because that's the next goal from where I am now. I'll reach 3400 when my current group of youngsters grow up. =)

 

BTW, my highest real proposal is the Mithril at 40,000, and I figure we will have players there within 4-7 years, especially since at least a couple of players are demonstrating the potential to add up to 6000 dragons a year.

 

Bronze - 50 Dragons - 5 eggs/15 hatchlings

Silver - 200 Dragons - 6 eggs/18 hatchlings

Gold - 500 Dragons - 7 eggs/21 hatchlings

Platinum - 1000 Dragons - 8 eggs/24 hatchlings

Ruby - 2500 Dragons - 9 eggs/27 hatchlings

Emerald - 5000 Dragons - 10 eggs/30 hatchlings

Sapphire - 10,000 Dragons - 10 eggs/33 hatchlings

Diamond - 20,000 Dragons - 10 eggs/36 hatchlings

Mithril - 40,000 Dragons - 10 eggs / 40 hatchlings

 

I'm a base 10 kid, but I can deal with it topping out at eight eggs, and only adjusting hatchling slots after that. I know there are other proposals with added freezer or kill slots, which don't matter as much to me. I just like having a "Holy Grail" to chase.

 

[whitebaron]

That record was done with bronze and silver trophy, old ap and me idling the last 10 days.

 

2000 dragons a year.. Its what I would assume for normal ap-hunters. Remove up to 1000 for people who breed more and add 1000 for people who trade for hatchies.

 

This means, that almost every gold trophy could surpass 10.000 in 3-5 years. (if you really collect dragons regularly...)

[Amazon_warrior]

'S funny, I don't think of myself as a "power player" but with over 4250 dragons I probably am, sort of. My collection rate will probably decrease as I get closer to completing my CB scroll goals though (I have just over 160 dragons left to collect from all the currently released breeds). After that, I'll probably be mostly just doing breeding projects, but it'd be quite nice to have something like more trophies to encourage me to keep collecting more dragons.

[HeatherMarie]

That record was done with bronze and silver trophy, old ap and me idling the last 10 days.

 

2000 dragons a year.. Its what I would assume for normal ap-hunters. Remove up to 1000 for people who breed more and add 1000 for people who trade for hatchies.

 

This means, that almost every gold trophy could surpass 10.000 in 3-5 years. (if you really collect dragons regularly...)

Which, to me, is a perfect "top-trophy" to shoot for. 3-5 years? That's a pretty longterm goal! And that's what I've been trying to say. I love the idea of more trophies to shoot for, but 40-50k is just way too much for the "normal" user. Even for power users, I don't think there is any reason to actually spend time making trophies *right now* for goals that won't be obtainable to *anyone* within the next 5+ years. It simply makes no sense.

 

Now trophies for 5k, 10k, I'm totally on board with. But if it would take a gold-trophy user 3-5 years to surpass 10k, then what the heck are we doing talking about 50k? Realistically, is DragonCave even going to be *around* that long?

[nynaevesilverwind]

Which, to me, is a perfect "top-trophy" to shoot for. 3-5 years? That's a pretty longterm goal! And that's what I've been trying to say. I love the idea of more trophies to shoot for, but 40-50k is just way too much for the "normal" user. Even for power users, I don't think there is any reason to actually spend time making trophies *right now* for goals that won't be obtainable to *anyone* within the next 5+ years. It simply makes no sense.

 

Now trophies for 5k, 10k, I'm totally on board with. But if it would take a gold-trophy user 3-5 years to surpass 10k, then what the heck are we doing talking about 50k? Realistically, is DragonCave even going to be *around* that long?

Dragcave's already been around more than that long. I see no reason why it would be impractical to think it would continue for that much longer. Furthermore, if you look at the projected staggering dates, you'd see that we have set the last trophy to be released 4 years after the first bunch. Which should fit your timeline perfectly, and still allow even super users to always have at least one trophy to strive for.

[nynaevesilverwind]

Just letting everyone know, I've not vanished again. I've just been really really busy since the Holiday season started, as I've been travelling all over hill and dale to see family I and my husband barely know. But once the semester starts up again I should have a little bit more time, and can FINALLY deal with those sketches. ^.^'

[_Charky]

*throws a site that apparently nobody'd ever heard of into the thead and leaves again before things get messy*

[Fuzzbucket]

*throws a site that apparently nobody'd ever heard of into the thead and leaves again before things get messy*

Whut ? I use it CONSTANTLY !

 

But for my own scroll, not for overall records !

[nynaevesilverwind]

*throws a site that apparently nobody'd ever heard of into the thead and leaves again before things get messy*

We've heard of it, the problem is that it's not a compendium of all the statistics of the site. It only uses information from the people who log into it, and then it doesn't update that information. There are many MANY users who don't use the site, or who don't log into it regularly to update their scrolls.

[Hisa]

The Platinum one sounds still finish for me but really, Mithril, once you have that much dragons do you really need 40 hatchling slots when owning so much already? o_o

[car340]

The Platinum one sounds still finish for me but really, Mithril, once you have that much dragons do you really need 40 hatchling slots when owning so much already? o_o

Well, when you have enough dragons to nearly populate Greenland, why not have more to overpopulate Canada? >:3

 

And I sometimes fill myself up with hatchies when the AP time is like 3 days...

[_Charky]

My point was, people seem to be arguing over whether anyone is anywhere near even the 10k mark.

The site shows that there is at least one user who is (assuming an average of 2,000 dragons a year) less than a year and a half away from reaching that mark. Now, you could interpret it either way- "That's ages, no need to do it, besides they might be the only one" or "SEE, it's possible! someone's nearly there and other people might too! it's definitely possible!"- but it at least reduces the debate.

 

Basically, regardless of whether that site represents the whole userbase or not, just that one entry there shows that it IS possible that a user will pass the 10k mark sooner rather than later, at the very least.

 

By compiling data from both the DC Records Site and the Dragon Cave Records Thread, we can see that quite a few people are at or near that mark...

 

The DC records site shows at least three:

One user who's almost at 7k with everything

A user who has nearly 5k with just Females (Nay, ADULT females) and could well have nearly as many TOTAL dragons as the first user

A user who has almost 6k dragons using ADULTS alone, and may well have nearly 7k if frozens were included.

 

The thread shows more information: (some lines edited out for size)

 

Look, another user with 6k dragons. Probably even more by now, I don't know if that's been updated recently. They also just seem to have many of everything.

It also shows they grew 831 dragons in 100 days; AKA around 2900 dragons a year. That means gaining 10k dragons would only take three and a half years- that's not including hatchies, of which you can freeze anywhere from 260-416 a year.

 

This user has even more and, while I think this is a one off and probably not sustainable, they would gain 14600 dragons a year using the Day figure and a more plausible 5880 a year using the month figure.

 

Obviously the shorter the time period measured, the higher and more theoretical the figures become, but it proves what's TECHNICALLY possible; anything technically possible should at least be considered and probably prepared for; Especially when anything could change in the future, as proven by the lifted limits on past Christmas dragons that we just saw.

[Fiona]

And you're talking about 6 or 7 different users - uber users. On a site with at least 8000, those are the exception, not the rule.

 

My point all along has been that it's not reasonable to make trophy levels based on "theoretically possible" levels. The vast majority of users are not going to raise 2900 dragons in a year. Why should TJ even consider making levels based on what only a very small number of users are going to accomplish? It's more reasonable to base leveling projections on what is expected as the norm.

[tenavosi]

I think new trophies would be good in a sense, by giving players something to aim for and show off on their scroll, but raising the limits seems like a bad idea to me.

[Syphoneira]

Personally, I'd still like to see one more egg slot, to allow people to get 4 pairs of Halloweens/New Releases they may be unable to catch after the Flood, and 3 more hatchy spaces.

 

And if hatchy spaces were to increase after that, I'd say one at a time, and not over 30.

 

If the AP empties too quickly, the eggs are no longer Incuhatchable anyway.

[_Charky]

And you're talking about 6 or 7 different users - uber users. On a site with at least 8000, those are the exception, not the rule.

 

My point all along has been that it's not reasonable to make trophy levels based on "theoretically possible" levels. The vast majority of users are not going to raise 2900 dragons in a year. Why should TJ even consider making levels based on what only a very small number of users are going to accomplish? It's more reasonable to base leveling projections on what is expected as the norm.

6 or 7 different users AT LEAST. There could be more. there probably ARE more, and quite a few of them. There could be users who've just joined who are GOING to be uber users. There might be a whole load of people who get CB or even second gen prize dragons from this year's raffle and ask for hatchies as payment. It's all fine and dandy to say "NO, don't make trophy levels based on "theoretically possible" levels!!", but if you don't consider the very theoretical future then you won't be prepared when the future becomes the now. I'm not saying that they should all be put in at once, but the 10,000 is at least definitely achievable for a number of users in the not-too-distant future. The very fact that TJ hasn't nixed this yet means that he himself isn't averse to doing it. Remember, this is a very long-term solution, and it takes into consideration what users might do in quite a few years' time. We don't want trophies to be TOO easy to achieve, PARTICULARLY if increased slots are going to accompany them. Anything over about Emerald (6000) wouldn't be released at first anyway, so it would give people a longer time to work towards that before it's actually implemented. By then, you'd be able to SEE who had an emerald trophy, to SEE who could reach 10k or more.

[sbowen]

Personally, raising hatchling limits would be great during the holidays for me. I try my best to grab the holiday eggs I want and then grab as many other eggs and hatch them as I can. As soon as I get the three other holidays I need, I'll only have to keep three egg slots open.

[ryon_brink]

I like the idea of new trophies, especially as huge scrolls are becoming more and more frequent and I think raising the egg/hatchie limits would make scrolls much more versatile. Currently I think people often get caught up between working on a project and raising eggs towards other scroll goals. Having more spaces to work with would provide the option for working on several things at once, making the game more attractive in the long run.

In-universe it would also make sense to me, since I understand the explanation for egg limits as the dragon owner being busy enough with a certain number of dragons. More experienced owners = more dragons that can be raised.

That said, I think there should be an eventual cap for egg and hatchie limits, explainable in-verse as there only being so much that experience can make up for. In terms of game mechanics I think that eventually it could make the game a bit boring if you could get all the dragons you need for a certain project etc. in one sitting. The suggested limits of 10 eggs/30 hatchies sound pretty good to me in terms of that. It would give enough space to pursue different goals at one time, but not so much that the motivation the limits provide (planning which dragons to catch etc.) would be lost.