Change the Holidays

[sheppardkid]

But anyhoo, as I see it right now, there's four main ideas for how people want this handled:

 

1. Change nothing. My personal favorite, although I'm also coo' with 3 and 4.

 

2. Remove the word Christmas from the dragon's descriptions, but change nothing else. This is the only option I am ADAMANTLY against. Even if you remove the name, Christmas is Christmas. Anyone with any idea of what Christmas is is going to recognize the dragons and the events and the release date for what they are. In only removing the name, you don't help any of the people who felt left out in years past, but you do stand a good chance of upsetting those who want the name to stay.

 

Not to mention that there are already other things in the cave that reference religious things. Valentine's Day has a relation to a saint, and Halloween has a relation to both All Saint's Day and Samhain. One of the 12 Days of Christmas stories has a dragon named St. Nicholas, which while a Santa reference is also in itself a reference to a real Christian saint. There is a very charming Easter egg with a tiny cross on it. And I have several dragons with descriptions that have Christianity mentioned by name in them, and those descriptions cannot at a glance be told apart from the dragon's official text. I imagine I'm not the only one with such dragons, either. You would have to remove all of this to really remove religion from the cave... and since I doubt that's going to happen, why bother with just going through the motions by pulling a single word from a breed description?

 

3. Include elements of other culture's winter holidays in future years. I would be perfectly alright with this, on two conditions: firstly, that the word Christmas be left alone in the old dragons, and secondly, that the addition of other cultures doesn't mean that Christmas is never again represented. Yes, I know that the events have all been Christmas-themed for the past four years. No, that doesn't mean that DC should spend the rest of its history doing things from every other culture while never bringing up Christmas again.

 

4. Make the Christmas event into a general winter celebration event. I would be alright with this one also, although again, I ask that the word Christmas be left alone in the old dragon's descriptions for the reasons mentioned in #2. I'd be happy to see unique descriptions added for those dragons, but it should be an addition to the old, not a replacement.

I agree with every bit of ^THIS^. However, I would like to add something about the names of the Christmas dragons. I wouldn't be against ADDING the official names to the descriptions. In other words, have the current Christmas description but then add a paragraph or two at the end about the individual breeds. This would be a good compromise in my opinion (unless you are one of those people who just hate the connotation of Christmas as a whole).

 

Also, I wouldn't be completely against incorporating it into a winter event of some sort. I'm one for tradition though so I'd really like it to occur during the same time frame, which would still be during the 25th but it wouldn't be titled as Christmas. Other cultural references could be used while the dates would stay the same. Would that offend anyone? It shouldn't because I see it as a middle ground of sorts. Those that celebrate Christmas get to keep the date (and potentially the name in the description) while those who don't get a dragon/event that is more oriented to other cultures.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I wouldn't be against ADDING the official names to the descriptions.  In other words, have the current Christmas description but then add a paragraph or two at the end about the individual breeds.

Yes, exactly! The generic bit could probably be kept as a seperate paragraph on the dragon's page (like the bits about their lifespans and communication habits), and then there'd be another bit with the unique description.

 

Heck, it could even be that way for the other Holidays. Maybe it's just me, but I've always though the Val 09's description would look fine included in all the Valentine's descriptions, again as a seperate paragraph of text:

 

Valentine eggs are only seen once a year. Adults’ mating seasons are very short, usually spanning the middle of the month of February. These dragons were once reputed to be omens of good luck in love.

 

Probably wouldn't be too hard to come up with one for the Halloweens, too. I mean, generic descriptions for the other holidays don't NEED to be added, I just thought it might be neat.

Edited January 21, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[purplehaze]

I am not against calling future holiday dragons something else, but please leave the Christmas name for the ones that are already called Christmas dragons. That is what they were created as, that is what they are, and that is what they should stay. I would like to see the spriter's name for them added to their description, though, as well as a short specific addition to the description, if the spriter wants to do that.

 

Winterfest or Snowfest or something else neutral would be fine for the name of the event if Winter Holiday is still too suggestive of Christmas, but please not Solstice -- we would just be replacing one religious reference with another. If a spriter wants to do a Solstice dragon, or a Hanukkah dragon, or a Kwanza dragon I could live with that, as long as the Christmas dragons get to remain Christmas dragons.

 

I am pretty neutral about Halloween and Valentines as I don't particularly celebrate either of those.

Edited January 21, 2013 by purplehaze

[olympe]

Hmm. I'd rather have the actual name of the dragon than a generic "Christmas Dragon" in the description. If only to know what the dragon's actual breed name is.

[Dragon Mage]

Tinsels don't have their name in their descriptions, either. At any rate, I'm not sure why it's such a big deal--it's easy enough to go by either their fan names or their release times (ex: Val 09's) or even the spriter's official names, when they share it. Personally I still prefer the fan names (like Butterbutts) over the official ones at times. Now, don't get me wrong, I'd still like to see some unique descriptions--simply because I enjoy learning about new dragons--but changing things just for the sake of wanting to know names doesn't really seem neccessary. I mean, the only times you really need to use their names is when you're trading, gifting, or requesting, and there's never been much confusion on the holiday swapping front that I could see.

 

Also, even if you removed the name, it'd still be exceedingly obvious it's Christmas-themed. It's released on Christmas. The dragons often look like Christmas things. I don't think pulling the name would make it much less official. Even if you call a hawk a turkey, it's still pretty clear it's a hawk...

 

But anyhoo, as I see it right now, there's four main ideas for how people want this handled:

 

1. Change nothing. My personal favorite, although I'm also coo' with 3 and 4.

 

2. Remove the word Christmas from the dragon's descriptions, but change nothing else. This is the only option I am ADAMANTLY against. Even if you remove the name, Christmas is Christmas. Anyone with any idea of what Christmas is is going to recognize the dragons and the events and the release date for what they are. In only removing the name, you don't help any of the people who felt left out in years past, but you do stand a good chance of upsetting those who want the name to stay.

 

Not to mention that there are already other things in the cave that reference religious things. Valentine's Day has a relation to a saint, and Halloween has a relation to both All Saint's Day and Samhain. One of the 12 Days of Christmas stories has a dragon named St. Nicholas, which while a Santa reference is also in itself a reference to a real Christian saint. There is a very charming Easter egg with a tiny cross on it. And I have several dragons with descriptions that have Christianity mentioned by name in them, and those descriptions cannot at a glance be told apart from the dragon's official text. I imagine I'm not the only one with such dragons, either. You would have to remove all of this to really remove religion from the cave... and since I doubt that's going to happen, why bother with just going through the motions by pulling a single word from a breed description?

 

3. Include elements of other culture's winter holidays in future years. I would be perfectly alright with this, on two conditions: firstly, that the word Christmas be left alone in the old dragons, and secondly, that the addition of other cultures doesn't mean that Christmas is never again represented. Yes, I know that the events have all been Christmas-themed for the past four years. No, that doesn't mean that DC should spend the rest of its history doing things from every other culture while never bringing up Christmas again.

 

4. Make the Christmas event into a general winter celebration event. I would be alright with this one also, although again, I ask that the word Christmas be left alone in the old dragon's descriptions for the reasons mentioned in #2. I'd be happy to see unique descriptions added for those dragons, but it should be an addition to the old, not a replacement.

She got it. Right here, I agree with this 10000%. It's 3 or 4 for me as well. Thank you angelic, you said it perfectly!

[DarkEternity]

angelicdragonpuppy, I agree with 1,3 and 4.

[Iside]

I would say

1) Change nothing

 

I'm atheist and I have no problems with Christmas at all. I like to celebrate its non-religious aspects, so spent lunch with my family, stay all together, give and receive presents... let's say the "Spirit of Christmas"

 

Also, in the description of Christmas dragons there is nothing speaking of the religious aspect of the festivity but the name "Christmas" itself.

And if we speak of names, than really religious Christians could be offended by the nickname "Yulebuck", since it refers to a pagan festivity.

 

 

[olympe]

More or less. In Sweden (and probably Norway and Denmark, I'm not sure), Christmas is still called Jul (pronounced Yule).

[Pixxelation]

Adding the official breed names to the descriptions belongs in a thread that Ein posted :3

 

Iside: Nobody is getting offended here. The inclusion of the word Christmas in the winter holiday description prevents dragons themed after other holidays to be submitted, excluding wonderful concepts.

Edited January 21, 2013 by PieMaster

[Fuzzbucket]

Would you be hurt if an artist came up with a beautiful Kwanza Dragon for next Christmas, as long as its name wasn't Kwanza Dragon?

I would love one - and I would rather like it to be called Kwanza. And I would like PAST Christmas dragons to keep the word Christmas.

 

I am about to contact a spriter with an idea - AND - discuss keeping the name of the festival involved attached to whatever we might manage to create ! To HONOUR all these festivals surely we need to name them. Why not ?

 

And as many have said - the event is called Holiday. Only the dragons (so far) have been called Christmas - because they were what was created. If someone creates something else - of course don't call it that. But those that WERE created as Christmas are entitled to keep their names, PLEASE ? I'd be well hacked off if I were a spriter and this were changed on me after the event.

Edited January 22, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[olympe]

Well, the various Christmas dragons all have their own breed name - although I don't know for sure whether Holly is the official breed name or just a nickname. In any case, it sure fits.

 

That being said - why are Yulebucks actually Christmas dragons - and not Yule dragons?

[Fuzzbucket]

They ALL have the WORD in their descriptions....

 

Yulebucks - dunno !

[HeatherMarie]

So, would the name-problem be solved if the "Christmas" dragons instead had their unique name in their descriptions? Holly, Yulebuck, Snow Angel, Ribbon Dancers, Winter Magis, and Wrapping-Wing. That completely fixes the "Christmas in description" complaint, and none of those names are specifically tied to Christmas.

 

Maybe I'm in the minority, I'm not really sure, but if users insist on this "Christmas" change, I would prefer it to go all the way. No breeds called Kwanza, no breeds called Hanukkah, no matter what they look like. I don't believe it's fair at ALL to expect the one small mention of Christmas to be removed, and then go and reference other holidays.

 

Personally, I'd much prefer it just stay like it is, but if things need to change, it at least needs to be fair.

[hazeh]

So, would the name-problem be solved if the "Christmas" dragons instead had their unique name in their descriptions? Holly, Yulebuck, Snow Angel, Ribbon Dancers, Winter Magis, and Wrapping-Wing. That completely fixes the "Christmas in description" complaint, and none of those names are specifically tied to Christmas.

 

Maybe I'm in the minority, I'm not really sure, but if users insist on this "Christmas" change, I would prefer it to go all the way. No breeds called Kwanza, no breeds called Hanukkah, no matter what they look like. I don't believe it's fair at ALL to expect the one small mention of Christmas to be removed, and then go and reference other holidays.

 

Personally, I'd much prefer it just stay like it is, but if things need to change, it at least needs to be fair.

I believe that's what the two ideas are that are currently being tossed around.

 

Either, we replace the dragon's breed description "Christmas" with their actual breed name, and then all other dragons that are influenced by other holidays are likewise given unique breed names (Menorah Dragon could be the Candlelight or Emberwick Dragon?).

 

Or, the currently existing Christmas dragons remain with Christmas in their description (although, as someone pointed out, I don't really understand why a Yulebuck would be considered a Christmas dragon) and then the other dragons are likewise referenced as "Spirits of Chanukah" or "Spirits of Kwanza" etc.

 

 

I don't really think anyone's advocating for the imbalance of the two.

[~Kat~]

I do not really care.

 

But I do like the name Christmas, and there is nothing wrong with it. Just like I will accept other countries names.

[olympe]

How about this for a compromise: The Christmas dragons get their names into the description where they're now called Christmas dragons. But individual, player-written descriptions may use references to Christmas or any other holiday of the winter season.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

How about this for a compromise: The Christmas dragons get their names into the description where they're now called Christmas dragons. But individual, player-written descriptions may use references to Christmas or any other holiday of the winter season.

We can already have such references, so that's not really a compromise--it's still a cut back. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, removing the word Christmas is rather pointless for a variety of reasons...

 

Remove the word Christmas from the dragon's descriptions, but change nothing else. This is the only option I am ADAMANTLY against. Even if you remove the name, Christmas is Christmas. Anyone with any idea of what Christmas is is going to recognize the dragons and the events and the release date for what they are. In only removing the name, you don't help any of the people who felt left out in years past, but you do stand a good chance of upsetting those who want the name to stay.

 

Not to mention that there are already other things in the cave that reference religious things. Valentine's Day has a relation to a saint, and Halloween has a relation to both All Saint's Day and Samhain. One of the 12 Days of Christmas stories has a dragon named St. Nicholas, which while a Santa reference is also in itself a reference to a real Christian saint. There is a very charming Easter egg with a tiny cross on it. And I have several dragons with descriptions that have Christianity mentioned by name in them, and those descriptions cannot at a glance be told apart from the dragon's official text. I imagine I'm not the only one with such dragons, either. You would have to remove all of this to really remove religion from the cave... and since I doubt that's going to happen, why bother with just going through the motions by pulling a single word from a breed description?

Edited January 23, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Thuban]

I still vote to leave the OLD ones alone, and encourage the artists who submit future concepts to leave the holiday name off in their descriptions. The ones that exist, are a part of dc history, and I see nothing wrong with having a sudden jump to new descriptions the next time they come around.

Future events could have a new name attached to them (Winterfaire was my example) and then any dragons released could be called (winterfaire) dragons until their names are released.

 

 

I have issues with people wanting to retroactively change things in this game. New golds for example, are really really nice, but i would have MUCH rather preferred my golds stay as the old sprites so i could collect the new ones. Yes, it would have created another "retired" sprite issue... but changing the golds retroactively killed any interest i had in raising them, I had enough old sprites, I had no reason to collect more.. so when they all changed, i had no reason to bother with collecting more.

 

Me wanting the older "christmas" to keep their existing descriptions is purely because i think its good to be able to look back at how things /were/ every few years. It has nothing to do with being attached to their descriptions, or wanting to cause problems. Those guys are a page in our history, and in the end, it should be up to the individual artists/concept holders to decide if they need updated or not.

[Fuzzbucket]

I still vote to leave the OLD ones alone, and encourage the artists who submit future concepts to leave the holiday name off in their descriptions. The ones that exist, are a part of dc history, and I see nothing wrong with having a sudden jump to new descriptions the next time they come around.

I you.

[Amur_Rama]

I still think it would be sensible for someone to ask TJ to chime in here.

 

He did when he mentioned the Holiday Season bit. But what would be the point in setting up all these different names if he'd never accept the non-Christmas dragon anyway?

 

An artist posted that he's turned down others before. But can you give any more details about it? Did he say anything specific?

 

I still don't like the suggestion, but I like the idea of adding diversity. But if the Power That Is isn't going to do it anyway. This is just going to be one of those exercises in hopeless frustration.

[aangs-sister]

An artist posted that he's turned down others before.  But can you give any more details about it?  Did he say anything specific?

He normally doesn't. If you submit a holiday dragon, you either get a PM a few hours before the release to discuss contracting because he has chosen it or you don't hear anything from him at all.

 

EDIT: I can't speak for everyone though. He may have, but I wouldn't count on it.

Edited January 23, 2013 by aangs-sister

[schmupti]

I completely agree with Amun un Rama here. What you're basically asking for is special treatment for a very select group of people.

 

That's silly.

 

Christmas is nothing if not an inclusive holiday. I've never known any Christian to throw out an atheist or whoever because of their religious beliefs. The more the merrier and love everyone, that's the Christmas spirit. That means even if you don't believe, you'll still get invited to the Christmas party anyway. I've got plenty of family members who are Jewish or atheist but they still get invited to Christmas every year and they always come.

 

So no, having a Christmas Holiday is NOT excluding anyone, in fact, it is doing the opposite. You don't have to share the beliefs to have fun and joy in on the event.

 

Also, I must protest this PCness because once you do that, you've spoiled the game. You're making it appeal to the masses and if the lobbyists had their way, the only PC food we'd be allowed is oatmeal -- no possible ethnic, cultural, historical or racial background to it to offend ANYONE! What a triumph of our forward-thinking, progressive culture!

 

[snip]

 

Making this more PC is NOT the solution.

(Quoting this post because it brings up both the "Christmas is inclusive" thing and the "No more PC!" thing.)

 

Every year, we go to Dragon Mage's family's house for the holidays. Her family is nice, they offer me eggnog, we watch "It's a Wonderful Life," and they sing Christmas carols, and they're very careful not to get pushy about the religious aspect--but, to be honest, they're so used to it that they don't really see how singing about the birth of a god is religious, and don't understand why I'm hesitant to join in on "Silent Night." But everyone's nice, and we all have fun.

 

So one December I speak up and say, "I know we go to your family's house every year, but how about this year, you come to my family's house instead. It's great! We have the Airing of Grievances, and the Feats of Strength--oh, man, you'll totally take my dad, I know it."

 

And Dragon Mage gets very upset.* "What's wrong with Christmas? Christmas is inclusive! We've never thrown you out! Why do you have to make this a religious thing? Why do you have to be all PC about it?"

 

And while I might not have felt excluded by celebrating Christmas with her family before, now I do--because her invitation to join her holiday is not a friendly gesture anymore, but an explicit rejection of my holiday, and an attempt to turn my invitation, my offer of inclusiveness, into an ugly thing.

 

Most of the comments in support of changing the holidays have been either for making it a general/DC-specific winter holiday that just happens to coincide with a few religions' holidays, so it felt less like visiting the one same house every year, or for opening the door to introducing a Festivus dragon one year, or a Hanukkah dragon, or hey, maybe a surprise release of a Diwali or Eid al-Fitr dragon (made of sugar!). It's not spitting in the face of Christmas and pushing it down a hill to go to someone else's house for a holiday or two, and sitting with their family, and singing their songs--it's just being neighborly.

 

* This is a work of fiction, and as such, we all aired our grievances, hit a piñata, popped a cracker and otherwise made up and lived happily ever after.

[DragonNighthowler]

How about celebrating nothing at all? Not only in Christmas, but in Saint Valentines and Halloween as well. If it is making people upset due to cultural or religious things, maybe the best solution for everyone is not celebrating nothing and all and treating those days as normal, everyday DC time.

 

Maybe we can do some celebration, limited egg release sometimes in August, or September, so as not to coincide with large religious or universal festivities, in such a way it is not subjected to be treated as Christmas, Saint Valentines, Halloween, Easter, or any other festivity which might have cultural or religious meaning of any type which could offend people.

Or maybe we just don't celebrate anything at all because, as far as we are concerned, maybe in DC universe they have no festivities as are too busy trying to survive. As far as I know, homo sapiens is the only animal specie to establish traditional celebrations around the same date, so it makes sense, RPG wise, if dragons did not even bother with such things. They might be intelligent and magical, but they could have evolved in a completely different way (considering they are reptiles), so celebrations might be something us, puny, underdeveloped humans do.

 

I frankly believe the best solution is that one. I might have my own beliefs, and I absolutely love Christmas, not for its religious meaning, but because of its child like meaning. I'm an adult who enjoys Christmas as if I was still 10 years old, because everything about it (except crowds) make me happy. Things that have nothing to do with my culture, like Christmas Trees which, as I've been told, are germanic culture (I'm not sure), lights, food, and some cultural specialties like the roscón de reyes.

Also, Easter here has a deep, religious meaning. We do not collect eggs, we celebrate a solemn, deeply religious festivity. As for Halloween, it's been introduced in the past years, but it's mostly an excuse to dress up and go out. We don't know the roots, nor the significance, as our 1st of November is, then again, a solemn, religious festivity to honor the dead.

The fact that DC is majorly of north american users and, as such, these celebrations (Easter, Halloween) are done in the american way (Christmas too, we don't have Ginger Bread houses), has never bothered me at all.

 

But if it is being a problem and causing people to be upset, I'm ok with simply retiring these celebrations. Therefore, there will be no more people upset, as there will be nothing to be upset about. It is a good solution.

 

Edit; I'm not religious. The fact that celebrations in my country have a deep, ancestral, religious meaning has nothing to do with my own, personal beliefs.

Edited January 24, 2013 by DragonNighthowler

[Vhale]

That was actually already suggested.

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=145812

[Kuraianubis]

Well, if we can get TJ to accept more open holiday dragons then I'm for it..but dont toss christmas all together. because not everyone sees it as some religious thing. But.. do we have to dress up dragons in gaudy colors and tassles for holidays? Why cant they be subtle? I do try for that.. ..gently have it blended in. Like Holly, its a plant during winter. yulebucks are candycane and fury reigndeer like..etc. So a Hanukkah dragon would be lit with multiple flames, or golden spinny... or a Kwanza dragon could be the colors and hint at whatever it is that holiday has..I have like no idea except what Futurama had .__. wow I'm lame.

 

I did try more diverse winter things or styles but yes they never made it, and one was told to be never used (no easterns..sorry guys..) BUT..if enough people voice it, we could have him more open to the idea.

 

But..dont get rid of christmas or the past ones. Sorry if they offended people, they wernt meant to. We try to be open to everyone.