Change the Holidays

[Amur_Rama]

I've got a, perhaps, smartass suggestion.

 

WHY DOESN'T THE OP JUST MAKE A JEWISH-THEMED DRAGON FOR THE HOLIDAYS AND BE DONE WITH IT?

 

Since that seems to be what this is boiling down to. If you want a themed dragon, go ahead and make your theme and suggest it to TJ. Since it's up to him to pick it, and he's normally mum about his criteria anyway. You have as a great a shot as anyone as getting that dragon in-cave regardless of what it's background was. That way, when you're in cave you get to go around telling everyone that it's your 'insert specific cultural details' dragon to everyone's delight, everyone enjoys their Christmas breedings and plans and you get to feel proud that you've brought more diversity to DC.

 

But either the OP is ignorant of how this particularly ridiculous facet of PCness came about in American culture, or worse, knows the details and is sallying forth because it's worked so well so far.

 

Christmas is Christmas, it's a time of year, not a holiday as it used to be anymore. However, it's easily the most recognizable and widespread "cultural" holiday out there. When a formerly religious holiday's atmosphere becomes so broad and penetrating that even cultures that have no ties whatsoever to the original source of the holiday celebrate it in a universal pattern (good food, family ties, exchange of gifts, looking forward to the new year) then it is a universal holiday, and changing the name doesn't change what it is. Trying to overlay another name is simply calling a rose a esor, you've spelled the name backwards and insist it's not-that-day but everyone knows what it is.

 

If there simply must be a HOLIDAY SEASON-like event, then please, put it in a relatively slow month, like June, or use it to fill the block of time during Thanksgiving (which is another completely areligious holiday and a known gorge-a-thon that would tie in very well here I think.) and make it uniquely DC.

 

So you don't like Christmas. I don't like hearing about Yom Kippur, but surprisingly it's actually gotten a bit of play where I work. You don't see me marshalling for a DPB (a Dead Puertorican's Birthday, because they're nearly weekend long holidays here and crop up all year round), because it isn't about me and it isn't about you (general you). This is a community event, and the poll pretty clearly says that the community likes this Holiday's label.

 

I honestly doubt if the suggestion were implemented it would be a floodgate opening moment. Because while Diwali looks nice. It's an honest shame no one's talked about Holi because the dragon released for that holiday could be a true work of art.

 

But we aren't going to do that, are we? Not enough East Indians making a stink about not getting representation, or perhaps they, like others, are just content with things how they are and enjoy the community that the bizarre parallel but secular Christmas uniquely offers.

 

If you simply can't stand the idea of Christmas, please go sit under a rock for a while while it passes overhead. I'm mad that Christmas ate Thanksgiving last year, but it wasn't any religion that did that. It was that secular, areligious half that was in full control of that, and it looked pretty much like DC's Christmas too.

 

They share a name and nothing more, anyone getting offended at that has a much deeper problem.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Amut un Rama

[hazeh]

You know, I've seen a lot of people getting into tizzies because they're reading WAY too much into this subject.

 

No one said they did not like Christmas.

No one said they were offended by Christmas.

No one said they were trying to take away Christmas.

 

Please, people, stop acting like the OP is being childish by trying to ask for an event that is more inclusive. That is ALL that is being asked about, and the purpose of this thread is to try and come up with suggestions for it instead of "making a stink" about the current situations.

 

I'm tired of all the negativity in this thread about "political correctness" because people can't stand the thought that maybe others might want to feel like the holidays should truly be meant for everyone.

[Dragon Mage]

I completely agree with Amun un Rama here. What you're basically asking for is special treatment for a very select group of people.

 

That's silly.

 

Christmas is nothing if not an inclusive holiday. I've never known any Christian to throw out an atheist or whoever because of their religious beliefs. The more the merrier and love everyone, that's the Christmas spirit. That means even if you don't believe, you'll still get invited to the Christmas party anyway. I've got plenty of family members who are Jewish or atheist but they still get invited to Christmas every year and they always come.

 

So no, having a Christmas Holiday is NOT excluding anyone, in fact, it is doing the opposite. You don't have to share the beliefs to have fun and joy in on the event.

 

Also, I must protest this PCness because once you do that, you've spoiled the game. You're making it appeal to the masses and if the lobbyists had their way, the only PC food we'd be allowed is oatmeal -- no possible ethnic, cultural, historical or racial background to it to offend ANYONE! What a triumph of our forward-thinking, progressive culture!

 

No.

 

No.

 

HELL no.

 

Instead of smoothing everything out to make a bland, faceless, colorless series of holiday events, how about we just add more color? More cultures, more holidays, more everything?

 

Holi would be a GREAT holiday to celebrate, as would Mardi Gras. I'm totally game with celebrating Yom Kippur or Kwanza. Hell, let's do it! DC may need to buy ten more servers, but let's push this game to the limit!

 

But so long as this event happens on the 25th, then it's staying Christmas. Clearly the poll tells you that 75% of voters do not want the name to change. Majority rules, I'm sorry. If the atheist community ever comes up with it's own holiday, we'll celebrate that, but having a Christmas holiday is a celebration of ALL cultures and is a holiday that invites EVERYONE to join in, not just Christians, and I don't see a need to take that enjoyment away just yet.

 

Making this more PC is NOT the solution.

[Amur_Rama]

Shiny? Have you missed the scattered posts in this thread that come from people who say they don't like the word "Christmas"?

 

I'll go track them down and edit them in here, with post links.

 

No, no one was suggesting that this is "taking away Christmas". But framing another "holiday" that smells, sounds, acts and looks like Christmas as secularly celebrated, around Christmastime, but it's totally not Christmas (for serious) is just silly.

 

It's like replacing New Year's with Primordial Term's End Day, which celebrates switching to a new calendar and making resolutions to keep for the following year and spending the night before partying and getting drunk to close out the previous Primordial Term, but it's totally not New Years. Because China celebrates their New Year in February and, ignoring that they send up fireworks and party like everyone else on the original day, that's like a billion people who don't celebrate regular New Years and we wouldn't want them to feel left out.

 

Yay Generic Days for everyone, so we can all feel mediocre together!

[PointOfOrigin]

If I may add, Christmas is not secular in the whole world. In countries with a smaller religion diversity it's still a very religious holiday. Just this year, I had my cousins say to me: "You are not an atheist, you celebrate Christmas, so you are a Christian like all of us". The thing is, most of the people I know would say the same thing to me if they knew. It's literally impossible for them to imagine Christmas as just a fun get together.

 

WHY DOESN'T THE OP JUST MAKE A JEWISH-THEMED DRAGON FOR THE HOLIDAYS AND BE DONE WITH IT?

 

Because the description says "Christmas dragon". Making a dragon related to one religion and then lumping it under the other one would just be an insult to both religions in question. To be honest, I would like if we crossed the old descriptions and added new ones, specific to the breed in question. That way, we would accomplish two things: we would include more people, and regular, non forum goers would get access to the new, breed information.

[olympe]

I can't help but agree with Haze. Nobody wants to take away anything, but add some more new flavors to the site.

[hazeh]

Special treatment? Oh boy.

 

No no no. There's no "special treatment". There's no favoritism, except to those that actually celebrate Christmas.

 

Understand that not everyone celebrates Christmas, religious or not! And maybe to your surprise, but a LOT of Atheists or other non-Christians get a LOT of flack for celebrating or participating in Christmas. And what is NOT COOL is to make someone feel bad about trying to make an event that can be fun and silly and cheerful for everyone to take part in. It has been repeatedly stressed and mentioned and pointed out (and likely will some more...) that this is NOT about getting rid of Christmas or being offended. If a member of the community feels like there is something that can be changed to help make it a better place for everyone, it is our responsibility to see to that issue. Not complaining about "PC" and telling someone to suck it up because "ew yuck change".

 

The inclusion of other holiday celebrations has already been put forth and heavily considered. The point of this discussion is not to throw a fit but to come up with ideas on how the Holiday Event (because that is what it is called, not the Christmas Celebration) could be more open to new suggestions and influences.

 

Shiny? Have you missed the scattered posts in this thread that come from people who say they don't like the word "Christmas"?

 

The issue with the word Christmas does not revolve around the "Christ in Christmas". It is about the title of the holiday, because that's what it is. The word Christmas represents something that not everyone participates in or feels exceptionally comfortable with.

 

"A rose is still a rose by any other name". I understand this. It can still be Christmas to YOU. And to those that celebrate it (like myself). However, this opens the door for it to be something else for other people as well. Options are GOOD.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Dragon Mage]

Special treatment? Oh boy.

 

No no no. There's no "special treatment". There's no favoritism, except to those that actually celebrate Christmas.

 

The OP specifically brings up Christmas as something they personally don't celebrate, and the poll does the same. It's special treatment for everyone that ISN'T atheist, now how is that ANY BETTER than the supposed 'special treatment' for people who do celebrate Christmas? You're just changing one favoritism for another, if we go by your words and that just doesn't work.

 

Understand that not everyone celebrates Christmas, religious or not! And maybe to your surprise, but a LOT of Atheists or other non-Christians get a LOT of flack for celebrating or participating in Christmas. And what is NOT COOL is to make someone feel bad about trying to make an event that can be fun and silly and cheerful for everyone to take part in.

 

Sure, not everyone celebrates it, but it isn't like they are being actively repelled! Christmas is about giving and being charitable and celebrating life in general not saying, "That guy doesn't believe, HE CAN'T BE HERE! NYAR!"

 

Anyone that DOES say that clearly doesn't understand the spirit of the holiday and should try to get a Darwin award as fast as possible.

 

Christmas is already an event that EVERYONE can take part in and be fun and silly and cheerful. Honestly, all we're debating over now is semantics.

 

It has been repeatedly stressed and mentioned and pointed out (and likely will some more...) that this is NOT about getting rid of Christmas or being offended.

 

If that's the case, then the poll and the OP should be changed, because it specifically says it wants to replace 'Christmas' with something not religious. Religion has shaped our world and every culture from day one. Good luck finding something without religious influence. Heck, even Halloween had a religious belief behind it. Why don't we axe that while we're at it?

 

Not complaining about "PC" and telling someone to suck it up because "ew yuck change".

 

Like it or not, making this PC is what it's about. I'm all for change (not once did I say I didn't want change) but this is the wrong way to go about it. Taking way Christmas and making it one, areligious, acultural event would be taking diversity away. We should be adding diversity.

 

 

 

[hazeh]

Sure, not everyone celebrates it, but it isn't like they are being actively repelled! Christmas is about giving and being charitable and celebrating life in general not saying, "That guy doesn't believe, HE CAN'T BE HERE! NYAR!"

 

Anyone that DOES say that clearly doesn't understand the spirit of the holiday and should try to get a Darwin award as fast as possible.

 

Christmas is already an event that EVERYONE can take part in and be fun and silly and cheerful. Honestly, all we're debating over now is semantics.

 

 

 

If that's the case, then the poll and the OP should be changed, because it specifically says it wants to replace 'Christmas' with something not religious. Religion has shaped our world and every culture from day one. Good luck finding something without religious influence. Heck, even Halloween had a religious belief behind it. Why don't we axe that while we're at it?

 

 

 

Like it or not, making this PC is what it's about. I'm all for change (not once did I say I didn't want change) but this is the wrong way to go about it. Taking way Christmas and making it one, areligious, acultural event would be taking diversity away. We should be adding diversity.

No, they're not, and not once did someone said that they felt they couldn't participate (but who knows, maybe someone does feel that way, but after seeing the reaction of people on here felt too intimidated to speak their mind!) in the Christmas event. The OP mentioned several times that they can enjoy the holiday event and that they partake in it. The issue is that the OP felt it would be appropriate to have an event that could be widened for more holiday celebrations so that it wasn't repeatedly "Christmaschristmaschristmas" every single year.

 

The OP was there to talk about different ideas. That was ONE of them. This entire discussion should be about exchanging ideas to improve on that, not trying to shoot down the minority altogether. Because that's what is happening and that is not cool.

Halloween was already brought up as well. No one is talking about "axing" anything! No one is saying we can't celebrate Christmas anymore or that the future holidays can't be Christmas influenced.

 

 

The only people who are making this about PC are the people arguing against it. Everyone else who wouldn't mind a change or are trying to help it better transition are trying to make it a better event. No one's going "You can't celebrate it because it OFFENDS MEEEE". And yet for some reason, people keep thinking that's what this entire idea is about.

 

And no, it would not be taking away diversity. It would be adding potential for more. No one is taking away Christmas. No one. No one is advocating that Christmas can't be celebrated anymore.

Most, if not all, of these suggestions have been about having an inclusive holiday event where all people can be celebrated- Christmas included- alongside other holidays, or even making it vague enough where all people can be happy with the references.

 

Broadening the spectrum is the exact opposite of taking away diversity.

[Obscure_Trash]

The OP specifically brings up Christmas as something they personally don't celebrate, and the poll does the same. It's special treatment for everyone that ISN'T atheist, now how is that ANY BETTER than the supposed 'special treatment' for people who do celebrate Christmas? You're just changing one favoritism for another, if we go by your words and that just doesn't work.

 

Can you please explain this a little further?

 

I could see special treatment and favoritism if it were being asked that we change "Christmas dragon" to "Hanukkah dragon". I don't quite understand how it's special treatment to change "Christmas dragon" to "Solstice dragon". o.o

 

~

 

If a compromise that works for more people is to leave past dragons as "Christmas dragons" and allow future dragons to be submitted as "Hanukkah dragons" and etc., then I'm okay with this path. (Although we'll need notification somewhere that this is okay.)

 

I personally think it makes more sense and would be less confusing to change them all to something all-encompassing, but if people prefer to have a varying magnitude of specifics, then I can handle that.

 

(Seriously, here's what I think probably would have happened if the descriptions changed Christmas to Solstice without notification and without this thread having existed:

-New dragons come out

-We finally get adults and some people notice the description says Solstice instead of Christmas

-People are curious and perhaps a bit confused and go to ask about it

-Someone notices past Christmases are now Solstices as well

-People put two and two together and go 'hey, they must have been changed. I wonder why' and go about their day, not really wondering too hard because they have pretty new dragons to try and catch

Why do I think this? Because DC users are smart and adaptable. We've gotten various, small, unannounced changes that users figured out amongst themselves, asked if it was intentional, said neat, and moved on. x3 )

[Dragon Mage]

@Shiny (since your post pretty much covered the same thing I'm not gonna bloat this post with lots of quotes, lol)

 

Fair enough, if it isn't about replacing Christmas or in any way PC, I'm game for adding more stuff. If that be the case though, the first post MUST be edited, as well as the poll, because both of those state that is the original suggestion. The thread has evolved in meaning and compromise, but that first post is incredibly misleading.

 

 

EDIT: Sorry Sock, lag made me miss your post.

 

Can you please explain this a little further?

 

I could see special treatment and favoritism if it were being asked that we change "Christmas dragon" to "Hanukkah dragon". I don't quite understand how it's special treatment to change "Christmas dragon" to "Solstice dragon". o.o

 

It's special treatment because it's pandering to the desires of a certain group of people, treating their particular requests as more important than others. Solstice dragon may not seem special treatment just as is, but when it was changed to that from Christmas dragon, well, you can see where the reasons for changing it came from.

 

The last thing I want DC to turn into is the Freedom From Religion Foundation. http://ffrf.org/

 

You know, they're the ones that want to make it a Holiday Tree and not a Christmas tree so that everyone can celebrate it, and no one in suburbs should put a Christmas tree on their lawn because it's offensive. That sort of thing.

 

However, since Shiny has already passionately made clear that no one wants to replace or get rid of Christmas, this point is moot. The OP should be changed, however, and the poll. The wording of both definitely makes clear that Christmas should be replaced.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Dragon Mage

[hazeh]

Hahaha, I suppose I do get quite passionate about some things.

 

 

Yes, I believe the over all consensus was not to "replace" Christmas or in anyway stop it from being celebrated on DC. I believe both what PieMaster (though they'll have to answer it for themselves, I don't want to talk for someone else) and others have been trying to suggest is a holiday event that includes several different traditions to celebrate. They don't necessarily have to be LABELED as such, but enough that we can all appreciate from which tradition they hail from.

And they don't all have to be released at one time, either. I don't want five different themed dragons or events all stuck in the course of a few months during one holiday season. We've got plenty of years ahead of us on DC, and plenty of time and room for different themed dragons/events (Christmas or not) to make their appearance.

[Dragon Mage]

We all get passionate about things, no worries.

 

If you mean switching Christmas off every other year with something else, I'm okay with that. Hey, it's all that time of year, why not? I'm cool with it.

 

Though I would like to point out that not even naming it the Solstice Celebration would get you free and clear of all religion.

 

Wicca.

 

 

But if a switch-off is what you mean, that'd be fun too. It would give everyone, spriters, writers, etc. new ground to play with too in terms of holiday events.

[hazeh]

We all get passionate about things, no worries.

 

If you mean switching Christmas off every other year with something else, I'm okay with that. Hey, it's all that time of year, why not? I'm cool with it.

 

Though I would like to point out that not even naming it the Solstice Celebration would get you free and clear of all religion.

 

Wicca.

 

 

But if a switch-off is what you mean, that'd be fun too. It would give everyone, spriters, writers, etc. new ground to play with too in terms of holiday events.

I've mentioned the switch-off a couple times but no one has ever responded to it x) If we were going with multi-cultural events, I was thinking the interactable events could have themes from either one or perhaps two other holidays, and then the dragons could have themes from another. Besides, we're always going to have Christmas dragons from the past years too, so a holiday event that perhaps doesn't include a Christmas dragon shouldn't be too much of an issue, I would hope.

 

Edit:

 

I like calling them Holiday Dragons. Or Winter Holiday Dragons, but I like the former the best. After all, like Sock pointed out, the event is called the Holiday Event... why not have the dragons that are released matched? Kill two birds with one stone.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Mommy_Kitty]

No, that's correct. THAT is the issue here.

 

Which is why it has been constantly repeated that an event that encompasses more than just one holiday's festivities would be a nice, inclusive, better way to celebrate a holiday season that should be meant for all people.

If this gets changed for Christmas event it shuld be for other two as well, as not all colectors celebrate Halloween, and Valentines day, For most of the countryes Halloween is fairly new hollyday, it is true that it originates from old traditions, but in time they got lost, and people stoped beliveing in them, and only came back to surface when Halloween as we curently know it came to be in america. And as for Valentines day, i belive you dont have to have a special day dedicated for love, as you shuld express your love to your loved ones 24/7 whole year around.

[demonicvampiregirl]

I'm saying no to this. I like how the events are so far.

[Acridic]

I might be entering this conversation late and this might have been stated but this whole thread makes me feel like the argument on WoW about being forced to do dailies.

 

No one is forcing you to pick up or even participate in the holidays, no one is forcing you to play the game at all.

 

[Sturmschwinge]

This is a very strange (and very American) discussion. Not including everything is not the same as excluding everything.

 

The holiday events are they way they are because the guy who created the game comes from the tradition where these holidays are celebrated. As far as I can see it, they are fun for everyone. Why should one change them?

 

And that's about it.

[Dragon Mage]

I've mentioned the switch-off a couple times but no one has ever responded to it x) If we were going with multi-cultural events, I was thinking the interactable events could have themes from either one or perhaps two other holidays, and then the dragons could have themes from another. Besides, we're always going to have Christmas dragons from the past years too, so a holiday event that perhaps doesn't include a Christmas dragon shouldn't be too much of an issue, I would hope.

 

Edit:

 

I like calling them Holiday Dragons. Or Winter Holiday Dragons, but I like the former the best. After all, like Sock pointed out, the event is called the Holiday Event... why not have the dragons that are released matched? Kill two birds with one stone.

 

You did? I never saw the switch-off mentioned! That's a fine idea to me, I've no problems with it.

 

Holiday dragons is solid, it's easier to say anyway.

[Emeraldmay]

I might be entering this conversation late and this might have been stated but this whole thread makes me feel like the argument on WoW about being forced to do dailies.

 

No one is forcing you to pick up or even participate in the holidays, no one is forcing you to play the game at all.

I think it's more that people want to participate, appreciate the spriters work and play the fun games, they just don't want it labelled as something which they don't celebrate. Just because people don't enjoy one aspect doesn't mean they shouldn't play it.

 

I'm all for the name change, if it makes more people happy, why not? I'd rather get rid of the stereotypical xmas description though and give them each a personal one... but I can't see that as being popular.

 

Name suggestions: Frost Fair, Snow Festival, Midwinter's Eve.

[Acridic]

I think it's more that people want to participate, appreciate the spriters work and play the fun games, they just don't want it labelled as something which they don't celebrate. Just because people don't enjoy one aspect doesn't mean they shouldn't play it.

 

I'm all for the name change, if it makes more people happy, why not? I'd rather get rid of the stereotypical xmas description though and give them each a personal one... but I can't see that as being popular.

 

Name suggestions: Frost Fair, Snow Festival, Midwinter's Eve.

Then wouldn't you be imposing your views on me of something I do not celebrate?

 

Frankly in every game there is one thing people complain about and think they are entitled to have it changed because of a belief or idea they carry.

 

In the end it boils down to the company or creator who owns all of it.

[Shadowdrake]

If this gets changed for Christmas event it shuld be for other two as well, as not all colectors celebrate Halloween, and Valentines day, For most of the countryes Halloween is fairly new hollyday, it is true that it originates from old traditions, but in time they got lost, and people stoped beliveing in them, and only came back to surface when Halloween as we curently know it came to be in america. And as for Valentines day, i belive you dont have to have a special day dedicated for love, as you shuld express your love to your loved ones 24/7 whole year around.

There's only one actual "Valentine's" dragon and no Halloween dragons, unlike the Christmases. And although the Halloween even could be cycled between cultures (maybe), what changes would we do to Valentine's and Halloween?

No one is forcing you to pick up or even participate in the holidays, no one is forcing you to play the game at all.

Except for the fact that on that day (or three days) there's no regular eggs dropping in the cave, and sometimes even the AP is filled. Which means that people can't actually play like normal, so they can only work on their own scrolls or ignore DC altogether, if they don't want to participate at all. So yes, no one is forcing you to play the game. But some people are feeling excluded because of labeling.

 

I don't even know anymore, I just know I want the Christmas dragons (or whatever) to have some unique descriptions, even if they're added on. And a DC page for holiday events.

[hazeh]

If this gets changed for Christmas event it shuld be for other two as well, as not all colectors celebrate Halloween, and Valentines day, For most of the countryes Halloween is fairly new hollyday, it is true that it originates from old traditions, but in time they got lost, and people stoped beliveing in them, and only came back to surface when Halloween as we curently know it came to be in america. And as for Valentines day, i belive you dont have to have a special day dedicated for love, as you shuld express your love to your loved ones 24/7 whole year around.

Those were also brought up and discussed, and I don't see a problem with incorporating new ideas from other cultures into such festivities. That's what this is about.

 

 

In the end it boils down to the company or creator who owns all of it.

 

This has been pointed out many times and acknowledged. I've mentioned that I'd like to see TJ's thoughts on this, but this is a suggestion, not an ultimatum. No one's saying he HAS to do this.

 

Then wouldn't you be imposing your views on me of something I do not celebrate?

 

That's why we're trying to come up with options, so that hopefully we'll have something that all people can feel like they can celebrate happily.

[Sturmschwinge]

@Shadowdrake: Do I get that right? You cannot endure the word Christmas on your scroll?

Edited January 20, 2013 by Sturmschwinge

[hazeh]

@Shadowdrake: Do I get that right? You cannot endure the word Christmas on your scroll?

I believe you're misinterpreting things or trying to put words into Shadow's mouth(er, fingers?).

No one ever said they can't handle the word Christmas.