Change the Holidays

[Fuzzbucket]

Wow, that's crazy! I bearly use the forums, and even I knew full well that TJ didn't like easterns. When he didn't post even one for the Chinese new year, I assumed that was his way of saying that he hated them so much that he wouldn't even release one for the asian holiday.

 

If he dosn't dislike them, I wounder why he hasn't released one in so long? They're some on the done list ready and some of them are the prettiest dragons on the list...

Maybe he doesn't think they ARE the prettiest. That isn't at all the same as saying he doesn't like them, after all.

 

 

[Ashywolf]

TJ releases what he wants to.

 

Anyway lets continue with holidays.

[Dragon Mage]

(Quoting this post because it brings up both the "Christmas is inclusive" thing and the "No more PC!" thing.)

 

Every year, we go to Dragon Mage's family's house for the holidays. Her family is nice, they offer me eggnog, we watch "It's a Wonderful Life," and they sing Christmas carols, and they're very careful not to get pushy about the religious aspect--but, to be honest, they're so used to it that they don't really see how singing about the birth of a god is religious, and don't understand why I'm hesitant to join in on "Silent Night." But everyone's nice, and we all have fun.

 

So one December I speak up and say, "I know we go to your family's house every year, but how about this year, you come to my family's house instead. It's great! We have the Airing of Grievances, and the Feats of Strength--oh, man, you'll totally take my dad, I know it."

 

And Dragon Mage gets very upset.* "What's wrong with Christmas? Christmas is inclusive! We've never thrown you out! Why do you have to make this a religious thing? Why do you have to be all PC about it?"

 

And while I might not have felt excluded by celebrating Christmas with her family before, now I do--because her invitation to join her holiday is not a friendly gesture anymore, but an explicit rejection of my holiday, and an attempt to turn my invitation, my offer of inclusiveness, into an ugly thing.

 

Most of the comments in support of changing the holidays have been either for making it a general/DC-specific winter holiday that just happens to coincide with a few religions' holidays, so it felt less like visiting the one same house every year, or for opening the door to introducing a Festivus dragon one year, or a Hanukkah dragon, or hey, maybe a surprise release of a Diwali or Eid al-Fitr dragon (made of sugar!). It's not spitting in the face of Christmas and pushing it down a hill to go to someone else's house for a holiday or two, and sitting with their family, and singing their songs--it's just being neighborly.

 

* This is a work of fiction, and as such, we all aired our grievances, hit a piñata, popped a cracker and otherwise made up and lived happily ever after.

 

 

 

Well, THAT didn't make me look like a howling Jesus freak, thank you.

 

Actually, Christmas isn't the birth of a god, that's just kinda weird. o_0

 

I never said that having a Christmas release was the end-all and be-all solution, only one way to go. Near everyone didn't say it was either. What I was trying to say in that post was that getting rid of the Christmas release for PC reasons is a slippery slope, because after you get rid of that, suddenly Valentine's is a bit too cultural, so let's get rid of that, and then a year later, Halloween is looking awfully pagan, so let's axe it.

 

This 'it isn't all-encompassing' argument could be made for any holiday, so when you start with one, it sure as hell won't end there.

 

THAT'S the point that I -- and many others here -- am making. Cutting Christmas isn't the solution. ADDING other holidays, on the other hand, most definitely is. So I don't really understand where you're coming from since very few people disagree with you. o_0

[senyi]

I doubt we'll ever get easterns at all. TJ doesn't like easterns, i noticed that easterns on the completed list never get selected. Right now the only eastern dragons we have are the silver, water and the sweetlings.

We now have the shimmers too. I don't think the water and sweetlings count.

[schmupti]

 

Well, THAT didn't make me look like a howling Jesus freak, thank you.

 

Actually, Christmas isn't the birth of a god, that's just kinda weird. o_0

That certainly wasn't my intention. As I said, I quoted you only because you offered the best example of the "Christmas is inclusive" statement, which is what I wanted to address, because it really is meant well when people say it, but it's also a source of unintentional hurt. Since it seemed many weren't clear on why it might come across that way, I hoped a little storytelling might demonstrate.

 

I was not attempting to read "Kill all the holidays!" into your comment, and I'm not for nixing the holidays--like you, I want more of them. And since TJ's amenable, the whole thread is kind of moot now.

 

(Also, yes, Christmas is about the birth of a god--Christ is God incarnate, the Word made flesh, in Christianity. Any weirdness to that is purely theological.)

[sarantha]

I'm pagan and would LOVE to see a Solstice dragon or a Samhain dragon. The more obscure pagan holidays probably wouldn't make it, but those two at least coincide with Halloween and Christmas. Midsummer would be really neat too.

[keijaidyyn]

Oriental dragon antlers that are CANDLES.

This needs to happen.

 

---

 

Personally, despite my agostic atheist beliefs, I do not mind much that it is termed "Christmas." I never did much see the point in getting in a tizzy over semantics... but at the same time, I can understand how it does bother some people, and would really love to see it referred to as a seasonal festival instead. I think that Easter and Valentine's could quite easily be grouped together for a vernal festival, and Halloween could be autumn's festival. I'm not sure what to do about summer, but I'm sure we could come up with something unique and interesting.

 

I love that it would open up so many possibilities not only for modern religious holidays that seem to be completely ignored since they're a minority, but for the old beliefs that are nearly forgotten. Perhaps we'll see a lovely dragon based on some old mythos that will actually inspire someone to learn about something they didn't know.

Edited March 26, 2013 by keijaidyyn

[Dragon Mage]

That certainly wasn't my intention. As I said, I quoted you only because you offered the best example of the "Christmas is inclusive" statement, which is what I wanted to address, because it really is meant well when people say it, but it's also a source of unintentional hurt. Since it seemed many weren't clear on why it might come across that way, I hoped a little storytelling might demonstrate.

 

I was not attempting to read "Kill all the holidays!" into your comment, and I'm not for nixing the holidays--like you, I want more of them. And since TJ's amenable, the whole thread is kind of moot now. smile.gif

 

(Also, yes, Christmas is about the birth of a god--Christ is God incarnate, the Word made flesh, in Christianity. Any weirdness to that is purely theological.)

 

LOL I was giving ya a hard time, no worries~

 

Glad we agree then. If TJ likes it too, all the better.

 

(Also, no, Christmas isn't about the birth of a god. Christ is NOT God, nor God incarnate. He's the son of god, but that's a long difference from BEING god. Trust me on this. I'm orthodox.)

[tjekan]

I don't celebrate Christmas, but I enjoy the Christmas dragons. Heck, I don't really even celebrate Valentine's Day, but I enjoy those dragons. By the same token, I don't celebrate Diwali or Samhain, but I'd enjoy dragons from those holidays just as much as the Christmas or Valentine's Day ones. Since none of these dragons is religious in nature anyway, just festive, I can't see how it would be a slight to anybody's religion to have dragons with a different theme now and then (or, for that matter, not to.) I kind of wish I were an artist now, though, because I can think of a really epic Chanukah themed dragon design, but it would look like garbage if I drew or sprited it, LOL! :-)

[olympe]

Why can't we have joke eggs for Easter? Like or <3? Just thinking.

Edited March 27, 2013 by olympe

[Riverwillows]

......... even christmas music as long as it's the Trans Siberian Orchestra. x3

What, you don't like Mannheim Steamroller?? lol....

 

I would support a Yule dragon. As a Paegin, it would have more meaning to me. And, the colors of green and red for this holiday, are not Christian, but Paegin. Depending on what tradition you follow, Green either means the new greening that will come now that the days are getting longer, or they represent life in the middle of death (evergreens in winter snows). Red usually represents the blood of the Holly King, who dies at the Solstice, and gives way to the Oak King who rules the spring and summer.

 

Like most everything, Christians covered up/took over most of the Paegin holidays, and converted their meanings to things in Christianity.

 

So a Yule dragon would be really cool. Get something of our own back.

[kitty41188123]

I would really like to see the date kept the same for holiday releases. I fell like even users who don't come on often at least /know/ that oh hey it's something special on this site on this day! I fell like if you don't like the dragons don't collect them. I've always hated magi dragons but I have enough to transport now and that's it. An I happy they got that bsa? No. Simply because my preference over them. Am I going to start a debate to get it changed? No.

I personally hate winter and everything to do with winter because every year around December to February I have horrible seasonal depression to the point that I'm normally not left alone for over an hour at a time. I don't really like any of the holidays, but do I think we should stop celebrating Christmas? No? Can people make sprites and do all the leg work to create a dragon that's not focused on Christmas but other winter events, holidays, things like that? Yes, but instead of complaining about it, it's time to go to the drawing boards and start creating new dragons to summit for the holidays. Instead of taking away let's add. Don't say it's not fair others didn't think of you. That's not their job. It's you're job to go to the drawing boards. If you want a dragon that you connect with start thinking of things. Sketch out stuff and then talk to others for more help. Don't complain unless your willing to help make the changes.

You know earlier there was a lot of birthday party things. All about how other kids had awesome birthday parties and you never getting one. My mom never had money for a birthday party for me. I didn't have one until I was seventeen and I paid for all three stuff myself. I personally never enjoyed someone elders party less and simply always explained to other kids that my birthday was just family. It didn't mean I probably feel it makes you more humble.

In my personal opinion sitting here just taking about it and fighting about it is like a child stomping their feet throwing a got because it's not about them. I'm sorry if anyone takes offense to this. It's no ones job to try to make you happy except yourself. I feel like if enough people summit non-traditional dragons for holidays they'll be picked more often. It's just about spreading happiness, and joy, and until someone starts submitting ideas for dragons nothing will change.

[olympe]

So a Yule dragon would be really cool. Get something of our own back.

Don't we have one of those already? After all, it's a Yulebuck...

Maybe two, since you also mentioned the blood of the holly king?

 

Don't get greedy, but let people of other faiths get their share first!

Edited March 27, 2013 by olympe

[Riverwillows]

I understand what you are saying Olympe, but those are classified as Christmas Dragons, specifically.

 

Yule Dragons would have the Yule holiday and it's meanings in their descriptions.

[sarantha]

What, you don't like Mannheim Steamroller?? lol....

 

I would support a Yule dragon. As a Paegin, it would have more meaning to me. And, the colors of green and red for this holiday, are not Christian, but Paegin. Depending on what tradition you follow, Green either means the new greening that will come now that the days are getting longer, or they represent life in the middle of death (evergreens in winter snows). Red usually represents the blood of the Holly King, who dies at the Solstice, and gives way to the Oak King who rules the spring and summer.

 

Like most everything, Christians covered up/took over most of the Paegin holidays, and converted their meanings to things in Christianity.

 

So a Yule dragon would be really cool. Get something of our own back.

If you were really pagan you would know how to spell the word...

 

But a Yule or Solstice dragon would be perfect. I would love it. I would love to see a silvery dragon to represent the Goddess.

[egwenna]

Wow. The (earlier) short-tempered responses are really not necessary.

 

I was raised Catholic, could even do the High Masses in Latin (back when the church still did that). However, when I am out with friends, I celebrate whatever they are celebrating. I've been to Wiccan festivities, Buddist temples, and sat at a Hindu I'm-not-sure-what-that-was with a Rabbi. It was incredibly cool. They gave us little cards to read along for the sanscrit chants and we doggedly kept up. Thankfully our yoga instructor often did chants, so we had a clue on the pronunciation.

 

People offer me a blessing, for any holiday, I do my very best to reply in kind. I have always seen it as they are sharing something with me and it doesn't impinge upon my beliefs, just as I'm not threatened or slighted when atheist friends don't want to participate in some things.

 

I am certain no one ever meant any offense with "Christmas dragons." The site started small, it worked. After five years... it probably is time to introduce new holiday dragons to reflect the larger diversity, but I don't see the value in a wide scale change. All the holidays have varied origins, all of them are pre-Christian because the early church hid their celebrations in the existing holidays to avoid being found and jailed, stoned or fed to lions. Once the Church rose to a position of power, they were officially co-opted because it was too hard to change the congregations' ideas of when and how to celebrate. Ester/Ishtar, eggs and bunnies have nothing to do with Christ and everything to do with Spring fertility rites, but we call it Easter anyway.

 

So, adding new dragons in the future to reflect DC's wider diversity, Yes.

 

Changing everything, to try to make everyone happy, no. That is an impossible goal, even if everyone was Christian! Orthodox Christians celebrate in January, and other sects, like the Jehovah Witness don't celebrate it at all.

 

[Kila]

But, as was pointed out before, the term "Christmas" has come to be incredibly secular. In fact, a lot of people who celebrate Christmas aren't Christian. Hell, I'm agnostic and I celebrate it. Wouldn't changing the holiday names to incorporate other religions defeat the purpose of keeping DC secular?

 

None of the released Christmas dragons are Christ or Christian themed. They use colors and themes representative of the season, such as red, gold, and green, or holly berries, wrapping paper, and bows. I wouldn't want to see ANY religious themed dragon, simply for the sake of keeping it secular. When Skinst was organizing the Christmas story event, she received one story that pretty much was the story of the birth of Christ told through dragons, and she rejected it because DC is a secular place.

 

And I'm sure a lot of us have seen Nakase's Christ themed Easter egg (which is lovely, but most certainly religious). It wasn't used because, again DC is a secular place.

 

All of the Christmas dragons have the same cut and paste description

 

Christmas dragons are a very mysterious breed. They are only seen during winter, and even then it is hard to catch a glimpse of one. They are responsible for the general cheer that spreads during the holidays. In essence, they are the “Spirits of Christmas.”

 

Nothing there promotes Christianity. It mentions cheer and good tidings through the holidays, which is another secular term.

[tjekan]

Kila, I agree with you, none of the dragons are religious in nature.

 

But by the same token, it would not be religious to expand the range of holiday-color themes somewhat, either. The red/gold of Chinese New Year would be pretty. The blue/white/silver of Chanukah would be nice. Even the black/red/green scheme of Kwanzaa could be a nice change-up. Red/green isn't the only festive winter holiday coloration out there.

 

Not that I'll mind collecting another red/green Christmas-colored dragon, or anything. I'm just saying that other color themes wouldn't really harm the tradition any... particularly SINCE it isn't a religious tradition, so there's no religious insult to be perceived. :-)

[Pixxelation]

I will probably be getting this thread closed. I PMed TJ about a Channukah-based winter holiday dragon description, and he said that holiday conceptors are free to create in-cave descriptions. As such, I suppose it is really up to the conceptors.

[Ayelldee]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with any of the Holiday events - if anyone is seriously getting upset just because the Holiday dragons have 'Christmas' in their description, they need to take a chill pill.

Yep, this. This is DC, an escape from the 'real world' and I shouldn't have to worry about the political correctness of my brightly-colored pixels.

[Kila]

Kila, I agree with you, none of the dragons are religious in nature.

 

But by the same token, it would not be religious to expand the range of holiday-color themes somewhat, either. The red/gold of Chinese New Year would be pretty. The blue/white/silver of Chanukah would be nice. Even the black/red/green scheme of Kwanzaa could be a nice change-up. Red/green isn't the only festive winter holiday coloration out there.

 

Not that I'll mind collecting another red/green Christmas-colored dragon, or anything. I'm just saying that other color themes wouldn't really harm the tradition any... particularly SINCE it isn't a religious tradition, so there's no religious insult to be perceived. :-)

I'm fairly certain there have been dragons of other color schemes done for Christmas aside from red/green/gold c: But in the end, the final decision is up to TJ. So if the community wants to see more variety of Christmas colors, we should hope TJ's been paying attention!

 

That and people can always submit their own designs. They all have a relatively fair shot (and I say relatively because in the end it's mostly up to TJ's own personal preference) of being released, so go for it!

[wobster109]

inb4close

 

I think it's a wonderful idea! I agree it's not worth getting offended over, but that doesn't mean a change wouldn't be welcome! Winter solstice / festival / holiday includes everyone.

[Fuzzbucket]

Bump because this has come up again....

[Natayah]

Let me preface this by saying I am fine with whatever, but I'm really tired of "Kwanzaa" being used as an example. Here is why.

 

Now I don't have a problem with including other winter holidays, but "Kwanzaa" is not a Winter Holiday that has existed for many years, nor is it African. It is entirely a made up holiday specific to the United States that "African-Americans" started. Not Africans. Not people of African heritage throughout the world. African-Americans in America only. From wikipedia:

Kwanzaa (/ˈkwɑːn.zə/) is a week-long celebration held in the United States and in other nations of the Western African diaspora in the Americas. The celebration honors African heritage in African-American culture, and is observed from December 26 to January 1, culminating in a feast and gift-giving.[1] Kwanzaa has seven core principles (Nguzo Saba). It was created by Maulana Karenga and was first celebrated in 1966–67.

 

It is a little older than "Festivus" and no one is crying out at the lack of "Festivus" dragons. Now don't get me wrong, I really like the ideas that Kwanzaa celebrates. I appreciate, that despite Jesus probably being very dark skinned and probably looking a lot more "very dark skinned" than "paled skinned", he is constantly portrayed as "white" and that can rub a lot of people the wrong way. And I would love to see a Kwanzaa colored dragon because the colors are pretty. But Kwanzaa is "not" a winter holiday that stems back in ancient roots. We are talking a few decades that someone kinda combined some ideas. ETA Also it didn't take off when it was also first brought up as an idea. It was many decades after the idea was created. It spread slowly. But so did Festivus. And again, Christmas, yes, it was stealing the pagan holidays to try and enforce Christianity so really it doesn't traditionally have a lot to do with Jesus either. And Christmas in its current form is a very American Holiday that we started perfecting between the 1920-1930s in its crazy commercialized form. That being said, at least the "other" holidays have roots that go back many many centuries.

 

Now if you want to talk about other holidays, that's fine. But Kwanzaa is a recently created holiday because no one wants to mention the fact that a lot of the reasons people celebrate Winter Holidays (besides companies wanting to make money) has to do with the fact they are historically inaccurate in their representation of the savior and make him very pale vs darker. So whatever issue this is or is not, if you want to quote an African Holiday, please find one celebrated in Africa before the 1950's or 1960's because Kwanzaa isn't it. It's a modern creation by African-Americans for cultural purposes and the idea of a lot of the Winter Holiday dragons are Holidays that are more steeped in deeper traditions. That's a social issue unique to America. I understand more countries celebrate it now. But it shouldn't be on your list of "diverse" holidays because it is a made up holiday to fill a void that is very recent steeped in no traditions. So please go hit those history books and maybe find something that is a bit more diverse ... or Just say, Kwanzaa colors rock and we would love to see a dragon with those colors... but don't use it as a "diverse" holiday and hold it on par with things that have traditions going back to before there was paper to write this stuff down. No matter how we've ***ized them.

 

 

ETA: We live in a fantasy world. We can create ANY traditions we want. So lets create them. We don't need to wait for the spriters. Why not create some traditions unique to this world you feel are inclusive of what it is that matters to you and stop looking to the real world to do that. The real world isn't a nice place and takes a long time to change. We got a blank slate here.

Edited December 31, 2015 by natayah

[Twyro]

I don't think there's any reason anyone should be offended. Whatever the name for DC holidays is, the most important thing is that everyone is happy. I myself am an Orthodox Christian, not a Catholic, and even though we don't celebrate Valentine's day traditionally here in Serbia, where I was born and where I lived my entire life, or our children don't go from door to door trick or treating masked as fictional creatures, I still take part in every event because their concepts are lovely and fun for everybody. It brings some joy to players to explore haunted houses, give each other presents, flowers or holiday cards regardless what their real life traditions are. And if everyone is happy for doing something that spreads joy among us all, why should it matter what the holiday name is?

If you want to make new, fictional types of holidays because us players live in a fictional world that doesn't match a single country or continent we live in, then I don't mind. What I want is for this game to celebrate so many more holidays and for everyone to participate with the same joy and enthusiasm.