Change the Holidays

[hazeh]

It's already called Holiday Event.

 

No one needs a giant announcement that the Christmas dragons have been altered into something less specific. Honestly, that is not going to cause much, if any, confusion, because I highly doubt it'll go noticed by so many anyway.

[Zovesta]

I dunno, Haze, I'd prefer to be informed of a change. I'd say just go with a News topic and let people find it.

[hazeh]

I dunno, Haze, I'd prefer to be informed of a change. I'd say just go with a News topic and let people find it.

Well yeah, but I don't mean for it to be blasted on site for an entire year. That's what I was really getting at, I feel like that's way over the top for a change that really shouldn't be such a big deal in the first place.

 

 

edit:

 

I really hope TJ posts at some point and gives us his opinion on this entire subject. I know others have pointed out that this is his game and should run as he wants to run it (which I agree), but we can't be for certain what exactly he wants or if he'd be open to these changes unless he tells us.

I would hope he's be open to something like this, to give DC as much variety as the members in its community are.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Natayah]

I did not vote because there wasn't the option that I really wanted which is: I have a couple other ideas:

 

1. If you want some variation on the Holiday Dragons (which seems to be mostly Christmas for this discussion), we should make a suggestion for that specifically. Like, dear TJ, we would like some more variation on the themes of Red and Green or whatever and would like something a bit less traditional Xmassy themed next Winter Holiday. (That is not meant as an offense to any Holiday Dragons as I loved all of them!! Just a suggestion as to a variation of this suggestion.)

 

For example, I love the Heartseekers. I refer to them as Chocolate Reindeer. Because they are so well done, imo, they could just as easily been a dragon for ANY holiday. They are so much not what I would have expected for a Valentines Dragon and are certainly my favorite Holiday Dragon. Want a dragon with more white and silver or frost or snow or whatever? Really want something with candles? Ask for a Holiday Lights (light candle light, not blinking lights) Dragon or something. Feed in some suggestions of what you would like to see and what you would like to see less of. Maybe they'll pay attention, maybe they won't. But if you make a suggestion, maybe the next Holiday Artist will use some of those ideas.

 

2. The tradition of Christmas as it stands today has less to do with "special meanings and history" and more to do with as a marketing force to drive 3/4 of the annual earnings within 1/4 of the year for many companies. Believe me, I work for one of the companies that helped to invent a lot of our Western Commercialized Traditions. Santa in the Department store has nothing to do with religion. It has to breaking the bank. So asking that Holiday Celebrations have less to do with religion seems pointless to me because ... we may pretend they have something to do with religion, and maybe they do for you, but the real reason Christmas exists?? Again, its about money. So if you just want to avoid certain themes that you may feel are a bit worn out, just suggest what you would like to see (see prior note).

 

3. A lot of people enjoy these events. I don't think we should change this tradition. Also, timing is an issue. TJ doesn't pick the holidays he does because those are his top American-influenced best holiday picks. They also have to do with being particularly good times for the active player base to have more free time to be here and not somewhere else, and are big times where the advertising is probably paying more. So there are practicle and logistical reasons behind it too.

 

4. However, the idea of DC having its "own special holidays unique to this game world" is an awesome idea. A time of year when there isn't as much going on.... we could make something special to these "lands". Of course, time moves differently in irl than it does in DC. Technically dragon babies take 2 years to grow up. IRL they take about a week. So to create some special holiday events of our own I think is a great idea, but as long as we are understanding its not a literal roleplay thingie and more of a unique to us thingie.

 

I think thats all I wanted to say. I used to be concise. Years of online roleplayed killed that. Sorry.

[Switch]

I'm having a lot of trouble keeping up with what exactly is being suggested, but from what I can gather from the OP it's being suggested to change the name of Christmas to something made up for DC so people who don't celebrate Christmas don't feel excluded? Am I right? o_o; There's a lot to skim through.

 

If this is the case, I... don't see any problem with it at all. And I love Christmas! It's my favorite holiday. I mean... isn't it just a simple little change of words, why would it be a big fuss? And if it was made up for DC, wouldn't it be something everybody can get behind? Which would be a good thing?

 

 

But like I said I'm having trouble understanding what's going on, there's a lot to skim through. Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood something.

*shimmies away >_>;*

Edited January 20, 2013 by Switch

[paradoxangel]

Has anyone considered either

 

1. We're only getting ~Christmas~ dragons because that's what TJ prefers

 

or

 

2. We're only getting ~Christmas~ dragons because that's the only holiday type spriters are submitting?

 

Because I feel like that might be the real root of the problem here, and not so much the name thing (seems to me more people would just like some variation of their specific holiday to show up as a dragon and they would feel included).

[Fuzzbucket]

Probably a silly question really :3

Yes people celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday. However, I can say I've never seen a Santa, tree, wreath, Rudolph or Frosty in any Church I've attended. One person wanted to do a Santa thing once, and it was a bit of a snafu. There are a lot of Christians that get very offended about having those things in church. The religious displays that are welcome in church are angels, nativity scenes, the wise men. You don't see them in red/green colors, but in natural colors. You don't exchange gifts at church, or at least I never have. By reading some of these posts, I've the impression people think that priests dress up as Santa and give sermons or some such. Which is absolutely not the case. I'm sure someone has done it... but not mainstream.

WOW ! I am a minister's daughter (but totally irreligious myself) and I have yet to go into a church (Anglican) over Christmas which did not have a tree. Also several RC ones. As well as gifts under the tree - usually to be sent to local children's homes, but sometimes for exchange among the Sunday School kids.

 

And Santa IS short for St Nicholas, after all.

 

OT, but this post just startled me rather !

Oddly enough, the suggestion of including more faiths stands to make the holiday more religious than it has been in the past, as I'd expect the real religious icons to show up if others were being included as well. Not the commercialized red/green fluff.

I see EXACTLY what you mean about all this ending up making things feel more religious than the number we first thought of.

 

Please don't change the names and info on the dragons we already have, though.... Retroactive history is NOT OK, even if this has to be done from here on in. Even the people who feel excluded already have some ***mas dragons - and I for one certainly wouldn't mind a few others with their "holiday" name attached (Hanukka, Kwanza, Diwali) - the ones we already have are who they are. But even if that isn't to happen - don't change the past.

Edited January 20, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[dragonsoup]

as event is the dragon's description that mentions that spirit of Christmas. And it *doesn't* mention the spirit of Christ, or the miracle birth, or anything like that... "spirit of Christmas" can very easily just mean "being nice to people".

 

To me the "spirit of Christmas" is just greed and commercialism!!

[skauble]

But like I said I'm having trouble understanding what's going on, there's a lot to skim through. Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood something.

*shimmies away >_>;*

At first, like with many suggestions, there were a ton of ideas thrown at the wall, so don't feel bad, it's definitely a confusing read.

 

From what I can see, the main suggestion, at this point, is simply to have the winter event dragons that we get called holiday dragons so that people can draw inspiration from some of the other beautiful winter celebrations there are around the world.

 

Has anyone considered either

 

1. We're only getting ~Christmas~ dragons because that's what TJ prefers

True. But, by the same token, one can say that most of the game was built on what TJ prefers, but he put a suggestion section up, so one would assume that he's probably open to at least looking at stuff that we might prefer that's different. And since Christmas is what the dragons are called, but not the forum event, some folks thought he might be open to adjusting it.

 

2. We're only getting ~Christmas~ dragons because that's the only holiday type spriters are submitting?

 

Because I feel like that might be the real root of the problem here, and not so much the name thing  (seems to me more people would just like some variation of their specific holiday to show up as a dragon and they would feel included).

That might very well be the case.

 

But PieMaster, earlier in the thread, did mention a dragon that was possibly inspired by Hanukkah. At that point, calling it a Christmas dragon would seem kind of weird. That's where the question came up - what would you call that dragon? The switch to holiday simply seemed like a neutral way for, not all the various festivals to be introduced, but to let some inspiration from them in.

 

I want to mention here, that I don't hate Christmas. For me, personally, I don't mind them being called Christmas dragons (although I respect that some people do). But here's the thing:

 

We've had Christmas dragons because even though the holiday is definitely religious, it has a really strong secular component that has created the leeway for using the name. Obviously a lot of other celebrations, even if they have a secular component, probably don't have one large enough to provide the kind of shielding that's Christmas' does. For that reason, there's an issue there with both a fairly literal representation of other holidays or naming the dragons after them.

 

However, being able to draw on those festivities for inspiration doesn't seem problematic and would offer whole knew areas and ideas to be explored, or possibly inspire people who celebrate other holidays. But while Christmas is a secular holiday, it's not really all encompassing, so it might seem strange to call those dragons that. That's why the name issue was raised.

 

[Zovesta]

Just have to repeat...

 

I seriously have no clue why people are being boulders about this. What, exactly, is wrong with changing the name and event to something less Christmas-y and more fantasy that is original, with inspirations drawing from all sorts of Wintery holidays?

 

Please, I would appreciate it if someone responded to this, as I genuinely don't understand. Look! I'm even using proper grammar for this!

 

I'd like to see what people think of that idea than automatically assuming "omg christmas is gonna be ruined forever guys!!"

 

But yeah I pretty much agree with skauble.

[Fuzzbucket]

Also what is wrong with - sure - having some around that time of year with quite different themes and colours (if colours help) and not using the Bad Word at all in their descriptions etc. - but leaving the existing ones as they stand ? (please ? They might get an Identity Crisis !!!)

 

Spriters are free to create all sorts - I think we NEED to look more than anything to them for this, though. TJ can, after all, only use what is submitted to him.

 

How does one go about having a secret idea and working with a secret spriter ? (I seriously want to know. I Haz a Reazon !)

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Also what is wrong with - sure - having some around that time of year with quite different themes and colours (if colours help) and not using the Bad Word at all in their descriptions etc. - but leaving the existing ones as they stand ? (please ? They might get an Identity Crisis !!!)

 

Spriters are free to create all sorts - I think we NEED to look more than anything to them for this, though. TJ can, after all, only use what is submitted to him.

 

How does one go about having a secret idea and working with a secret spriter ? (I seriously want to know. I Haz a Reazon !)

I agree with this quite a lot. As I said before, if people want to make ones themed around something else, then ok--but just remove the word Christmas from theirs (probably just a unique species description only, as all the other holidays have), and leave the currents with the generic (or with the generic start + tagged-on unique info).

 

I agree even more with the idea that it's TJ's site and if he wants to throw a Christmas event he should have the right to do so. As others have said, even if it's not your culture, I'm sure you can find SOMETHING to enjoy and appreciate about it. I mean if DC had always had a fake winter holiday, then I wouldn't have cared whether or not they added Christmas in--but as-is Christmas has been here for years and I'd like it to stay.

 

As for your last question, Fuzz, you just PM your idea to any sketchers / spriters you think might be interested and see if they'll help you out. If you're worried about preserving secrecy (although I don't think it matters if it's only a few people you're mentioning it too, haha!), then only give them a very general idea of what you'd like to do (Ex: 'I want to make a tree-based Christmas dragon, want to help' instead of going into lavish detail off the bat), then send more info if they agree.

Edited January 20, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Vhale]

Also what is wrong with - sure - having some around that time of year with quite different themes and colours (if colours help) and not using the Bad Word at all in their descriptions etc. - but leaving the existing ones as they stand ? (please ? They might get an Identity Crisis !!!)

 

Spriters are free to create all sorts - I think we NEED to look more than anything to them for this, though. TJ can, after all, only use what is submitted to him.

 

How does one go about having a secret idea and working with a secret spriter ? (I seriously want to know. I Haz a Reazon !)

Try putting out an artios pen as bait, or Deviant Art subscription :3

 

I've mentioned the spriter thing but it keeps getting skipped >.<

 

Honestly, the eggs are the best example. It's fairly blatant they are related to Easter yet not being called Easter let's people pretend they are not. And they have massive variety in the art.

 

 

Though I recall people complaining about Nacase' due to it's having an icon on it. So I guess I'm leery of this ending well. Colors alone are no big deal.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Vhale

[Wookieinmashoo]

Though I recall people complaining about Nacase' due to it's having an icon on it. So I guess I'm leery of this ending well. Colors alone are no big deal.

What's messed up is that I think something such as a pentagram would have gone unnoticed, yet a cross is detested. I'm not anti-religious, I just take the sprites for what they are: pretty things to look at.

[Thuban]

Ok, so in the last page at least, yay, people seem to be cool with leaving the older dragons alone, and just dropping christmas from /new/ ones.

 

 

If that is the case, thats easily done. Lets call that holiday season something else.. like uhh Winterfaire. Perhaps the inhabitants of the local area have decided they would like to spend winter together and share their beliefs and crate a neutral zone for everyone to do their own thing, but together

[StormWizard212]

If that is the case, thats easily done. Lets call that holiday season something else.. like uhh Winterfaire. Perhaps the inhabitants of the local area have decided they would like to spend winter together and share their beliefs and crate a neutral zone for everyone to do their own thing, but together

I really like that suggestion. I think that sounds perfect and I'd love to see something like this introduced next year, especially for the sake of RP.

[Darth Krande]

If there were an option to add more holidays I would have voted that. Pi-day is a good example of non religious events that don't have any dragons yet. I would also love a dragon that's only breedable or visible when the DaylightSavingTime is on. Also, it would be nice if national holidays would have a dragon too - maybe two or three nations' dragon per year - it would be interesting to get word others holidays, wouldn't it? Something like StPatricks. Except for StPatrick's is now an anniversary of the Lagmonster attack.

[Dangeruse]

...What would you all do if TJ decided to discontinue the dragon game because people want things changed. He and everyone has worked hard to make it so we can all enjoy ourselves on here, and I thank you all for this that has worked hard to make it a fun place for all of us.

I don't think TJ would allow for a Suggestions section on the forum if he didn't want suggestions. No one is saying that they don't appreciate the work involved with creating/maintaining the game.

 

*whoops* Hit submit instead of preview.

 

Continued:

 

Is there any way to change the poll to reflect the different suggestions that are being discussed now?

Edited January 20, 2013 by Dangeruse

[MinervaClay]

I'd think a second poll is more appropriate. This poll has already been shifted around once, modifying it twice is just prone to completely obfusicate people's original intentions when they voted.

 

But yeah, I've said elsewise what I have to. There's too much PC going on here and it's that, more than anything, that is making me want to avoid the forums. I'm not Christian. I'm not even close to Christian. I have a statue of the great god pan holding psyche in my house, and not just because it's pretty. But I am honestly tired of watching people be so ridiculous as to need to stamp out any even indirect, unassigned mention that could possibly maybe just a little-bit be tied to their religion. And their religion tried to stomp out my religion. And I still find this to be downright ridiculous. People mock them over spazzing out over a pentagram, and then people pop their lids over a cross or the word "Christmas".

 

I think I'm just going to break for a few days and hope people cool down and I don't end up seeing this pop up on the front age constantly.

Edited January 20, 2013 by MinervaClay

[hazeh]

I find it ridiculous that we can't do something to even offer a more inclusive event for our members of DC. PC or not, it's the right thing to do instead of huffing and puffing that it's not worth the time.

[MinervaClay]

I find it ridiculous that we can't do something to even offer a more inclusive event for our members of DC. PC or not, it's the right thing to do instead of huffing and puffing that it's not worth the time.

Go ahead. I suggested a Chanakuh Dragon with candle-horns earlier.

 

But never, ever try to bury the fact that this thread even got rolling by people claiming they felt somehow put off because they were athiest/insert and didn't like the word Christ in Christmas.

Edited January 20, 2013 by MinervaClay

[hazeh]

Go ahead. I suggested a Chanakuh Dragon with candle-horns earlier.

 

But never, ever try to bury the fact that this thread even got rolling by people claiming they felt somehow put off because they were athiest/insert and didn't like the word Christ in Christmas.

No, it's not about the word Christ in Christmas. No one could care about what word is in another word. The issue at hand revolves around the fact that as a holiday that is either secular or religious, is still a holiday with cultural influences that is not celebrated by all people. Sure, it can be enjoyed by most, even those that don't celebrate it, but from the OP themselves stated that they would like to see an annual event that encompasses a wider range of people so that some people don't feel alienated from an event that should be for everyone to enjoy.

Just because you or I are not personally affected by that feeling, does not mean it is an invalid or silly feeling to have. I like Piemaster a lot, and I was never bothered by the Christmas theme of DC. However, once his thoughts came to light on the subject, I realized that it is just downright mean to make someone feel like their thoughts on an innocent, benign suggestion are insignificant and useless because they are a minority and therefore should just "suck it up". That's what a good portion of this whole discussion has been about, not about the "christ in christmas".

(I'm not saying that's what you're suggesting, I'm just pointing out that I've seen a lot of this attitude being passed around here and it's incredibly appalling)

[Ponystar17]

Although I have no strong feelings about Christmas, I would like to see the previous Christmas dragons stay the same. I would also like to see Winter Holiday dragons from other religions, though, and certainly I for one would be happy to help make one. I would be very sad to see what we have already changed to something so ambiguous it's silly. Sure, say the future ones represent the "spirit of Channakuh (sp?), I think that would be lovely, but please don't change the ones we already have.

 

Just my two cents, please don't get offended if I misunderstood a religion here; I'm just relatively ignorant about most religions.

[Sturmschwinge]

The issue at hand revolves around the fact that as a holiday that is either secular or religious, is still a holiday with cultural influences that is not celebrated by all people.

And where exactly is the issue here? No holiday is celebrated by all people. So what?

[hazeh]

And where exactly is the issue here? No holiday is celebrated by all people. So what?

No, that's correct. THAT is the issue here.

 

Which is why it has been constantly repeated that an event that encompasses more than just one holiday's festivities would be a nice, inclusive, better way to celebrate a holiday season that should be meant for all people.