Change the Holidays

[Sturmschwinge]

What else is the problem? I really don't get it.

[Obscure_Trash]

What else is the problem? I really don't get it.

• Christmas is a cultural reference, which is not allowed in the cave (dragons have had to change their names/descriptions for mentioning a country, for example), so it doesn't make sense that Christmas is allowed in a description.
• The forums refer to the event as a Winter Event/Holiday as well as holiday dragons - not as Christmas dragons.
• There are lots of winter-y holidays and even just winter-y themes around and it'd be awesome if we could draw inspiration from any of those to submit for the winter release. However, if these dragons would be released as "Christmas dragons" then that is offensive to the religions involved. Changing the name allows for greater diversity in the dragons we can see for the winter holiday.

EDIT: Meant to thank you, Dragon Mage, for taking the time to explain. I read the post but didn't have anything to say besides thank you and then posted this reply and forgot. D:

I can see where you're coming from, though I think we're at a difference in opinion. o3o

 

I have just been using Solstice as a placeholder because of the solstices/equinoxes, but I enjoy some of the names that have been suggested.

Edited January 20, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[hazeh]

What else is the problem? I really don't get it.

Hm, okay. Let's see if I can explain it like this.

 

Imagine there's this club that you really like. You all share some hobby (that has nothing to do with holidays or whatever) and you've made a lot of friends with the people there. You like being there a lot, it's something you enjoy. Now every winter season, they put on this party for the members to come and have fun. However, it is specifically themed on something you yourself don't normally associate with. You don't mind this really, as it's all fun and games, and you can enjoy yourself just fine. However, after five years of virtually the same thing, you wonder if there would be much harm in asking for a little diversity. You tell your friends, "Hey! Wouldn't it be neat if there was an activity for another holiday celebration that occurs during this time? We can call it a Holiday Party instead, and then everyone can bring something new to the table!" You notice some people in the crowd nod their heads, as they've also noticed the particular lack of variety, and while you and the others certainly don't have any problem with celebrating the current Holiday at hand, you find yourself being brushed aside by others at the party that can't believe you'd have the audacity to suggest a minor, honest change to the celebration.

 

 

That is what is going on. Christmas isn't celebrated by everyone. Doesn't matter if it's secular or not. And while no one here is saying "if I can't celebrate my holiday than neither can you", they're being treated like their opinions don't matter.

[Sturmschwinge]

Halloween is a cultural reference as well, as is Valentine's Day. (The explanations in the OP are quite funny btw. - Wikipedia is not that hard to use, people.). As are Vampires, and Zombies, and Guardians of Nature. Almost everything is.

 

I think it rather disturbing that someone could be offended by another religion (or person or gender or sexual orientation or hair colour or you-name-it).

 

I'm an atheist. I don't feel offended by dragons in a silly little game I play that are about some Levantine fairy tales. I don't feel less included or more excluded because of them. They are pixels on a page. Get over it.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Sturmschwinge

[hazeh]

Halloween is a cultural reference as well, as is Valentine's Day. (The explanations in the OP are quite funny btw. - Wikipedia is not that hard to use, people.). As are Vampires, and Zombies, and Guardians of Nature. Almost everything is.

 

I think it rather disturbing that someone could be offended by another religion (or person or gender or sexual orientation or hair colour or you-name-it).

 

I'm an atheist. I don't feel offended by dragons in a silly little game I play that are about some Levantine fairy tales. I don't feel less included or more excluded because of them. They are pixels on a page. Get over it.

And both those holidays have likewise been taken into consideration. (Guardians of Nature are a Pokemon reference, by the way, not exactly cultural)

 

No one's offended, so you can stop saying that now.

 

I'm also an atheist. I'm an atheist who celebrates Christmas and Chanukah. I, also, do not feel excluded. But if someone else does, instead of telling them to "get over it", you can have some compassion and try to help the issue.

[Sturmschwinge]

And both those holidays have likewise been taken into consideration. (Guardians of Nature are a Pokemon reference, by the way, not exactly cultural)

 

No one's offended, so you can stop saying that now.

 

I'm also an atheist. I'm an atheist who celebrates Christmas and Chanukah. I, also, do not feel excluded. But if someone else does, instead of telling them to "get over it", you can have some compassion and try to help the issue.

Pokémon = pop-cultural reference (Videogames are shown in the MoMA nowadays, you know?)

 

And really ... I have no compassion for people who get so entitled about a browser game. I only have a "grow up" for them.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Sturmschwinge

[hazeh]

Pokémon = pop-cultural reference (Videogames are shown in the MoMA nowadays, you know?)

 

And really ... I have no compassion for people who get so entitled about a browser game. I only have a "grow up" for them.

-shrug- Okay then. But it's not a cultural reference in the same way that holidays are. It's a completely different thing.

 

No one is saying they are entitled to anything. That's the sentiment that users arguing against the idea are making, and no one has ever made mention that this HAS to be done because OMG I'M OFFENDED.

 

 

[Khram]

Well... I am rather new in the forum, and never walked out from the trading section, but I saw this and I couldn't resist to read. My first reaction has been WTF?

 

I'm spanish and yes, we celebrate masively Christmas. But not Halloween, although last years Halloween has became more popular. And what? I am glad of having new special dragons on that days, and breed past halloweens and trying to get better lineages and so that. Is there a real problem with the name of the special release? I mean, is the name of the release really so important?

 

I don't really mind how they are called, how they are released or even when. The only thing I really mind is the game, trying to gather the most kind of dragons I can and have the nicer times I could get.

 

So think about it and think if there is a real point on how the dragons are named.

[hazeh]

This suggestion here is a LOT more innocent than a lot of people are making it out to be.

It is just a suggestion guys. It's an idea. Someone thought maybe this could be a good expansion on something great we already have, and there is no harm in that.

 

This is not a crying, whining, childish plea for attention, and I (and I'm sure the others) would really appreciate it if people stop making it out to be that way.

[Shadowdrake]

Just for focus:

 

For Change side:

~ Not saying to remove Christmas, but rather make it a Winter Holiday to include everyone

~ Will bring diversity

~ Theoretically, no one feels left out or is offended because they don't celebrate Christmas

 

Against Change side:

~ Up to the creator

~ Christmas is a DC tradition and shouldn't be changed

~ It doesn't really matter that much

 

I swear there are more arguments for both sides, but I can't think of them right now. Anyone want to point them out for me?

[Kuraianubis]

I'm not going to bother reading past the first post and into an anger inducing ragefest of religion or whatnot, but I will state an opinion.

 

No where do we state Christmas as christian. Wrapping paper, golden bells, candycanes and red/green is NOT christian. We do not have manger dragons or virgin Mary dragons.

 

This is Christmas in the old sense..yes OLD traditional, of a magical man in red giving gifts to children, of pinetrees, warming hearts and family in the cold of winter. Bells on sleighs and fur trimmed clothes, coal for the bad naughty kids that wern't eaten by the big bad wolf in the old fairy tales.. you know, things like dragons and monsters?

 

Just like Halloween is based off old traditions.

 

We are ignoring what hallmark and religion has done to the holidays.

 

I do not think they need to be changed at all.

 

in fact the artist who work hard to make these events are NOT all Christian. But we have fun making gifts and getting into the holiday spirit. We work extra hard to bring it to you all. Like little elves in the work shop. So why not smile and accept gratefully the present we work hard each year for? We do it unpaid and try to outdo ourselves every year.

 

Cheer up and just say thank you. There arn't any strings attached or deep meanings other than happy fun and spirit.

[hazeh]

in fact the artist who work hard to make these events are NOT all Christian. But we have fun making gifts and getting into the holiday spirit. We work extra hard to bring it to you all. Like little elves in the work shop. So why not smile and accept gratefully the present we work hard each year for? We do it unpaid and try to outdo ourselves every year.

 

Cheer up and just say thank you. There arn't any strings attached or deep meanings other than happy fun and spirit.

We are grateful. No one is being ungrateful. Why can't we have a seasonal event that has more than just one holiday theme? Why not give said artists more to work with and more ideas to incorporate into their hard work? There's nothing wrong with having more ways to celebrate a fun time.

[Thuban]

If that is the case, thats easily done. Lets call that holiday season something else.. like uhh Winterfaire. Perhaps the inhabitants of the local area have decided they would like to spend winter together and share their beliefs and crate a neutral zone for everyone to do their own thing, but together

A few pages back, I made the suggestion to just change the name of how we refer to the events.

 

 

If we can come up with a "dc holiday" name to use there then nobody is left out (or included unwilingly) into a culteral or religious "thing" they dont want to me. I still maintain that previous holiday dragon descriptions should be left alone, unless the spriter/concept holder WANT to change them.

[Kuraianubis]

Well then I guess this is all up to asking TJ about it. He's the one who makes them all "Christmas" dragons and not their original names. And he doesn't give them the descriptions they're meant to have. thats HIS thing, so if you all want more unique holiday dragons.. make a personal letter to the big man.

 

I know for one that he has rejected more diverse "holiday" dragons, and i've just had to come to accepting he wants very plain Christmasy dragons. -shrugs-

 

Its his site, we just give him the material to use as he pleases.

[olympe]

Haze beat me to it. Again. Of course, I'm grateful for all the beautiful holiday dragons - and all other dragons no DC, really. I'm not saying we shouldn't have any more of them, either.

 

However, what I am saying - along with a few others - is that it wouldn't hurt anybody to have holiday dragons with a different theme. Why not a Hanukkah-based dragon for Christmas? Why not a colorful Holi-Dragon for Valentine's Day? Or whatever suits your fancy. Would you be hurt if an artist came up with a beautiful Kwanza Dragon for next Christmas, as long as its name wasn't Kwanza Dragon?

[hazeh]

Well then I guess this is all up to asking TJ about it. He's the one who makes them all "Christmas" dragons and not their original names. And he doesn't give them the descriptions they're meant to have. thats HIS thing, so if you all want more unique holiday dragons.. make a personal letter to the big man.

 

I know for one that he has rejected more diverse "holiday" dragons, and i've just had to come to accepting he wants very plain Christmasy dragons. -shrugs-

 

Its his site, we just give him the material to use as he pleases.

Hmm. That is a bit disappointing to hear. I hope, however, if he's been following this discussion, that he'll be open to some future diversity, even if they weren't necessarily holiday-themed.

 

It is a suggestion, though, so I'll have my fingers crossed that he'll take the core of it to heart, or at least give us a brief answer on his part.

[Vhale]

Well then I guess this is all up to asking TJ about it. He's the one who makes them all "Christmas" dragons and not their original names. And he doesn't give them the descriptions they're meant to have. thats HIS thing, so if you all want more unique holiday dragons.. make a personal letter to the big man.

 

I know for one that he has rejected more diverse "holiday" dragons, and i've just had to come to accepting he wants very plain Christmasy dragons. -shrugs-

 

Its his site, we just give him the material to use as he pleases.

Thanks for letting us know. I figured after 5 years, someone had surely tried submitting something. The Heartseekers and Alt Sweetlings were pretty fawned over, so who knows. There might be a blue/white/silver dragon yet

[Pixxelation]

Okay, I updated the OP. Please read over it, especially if you are against changing the holidays.

 

I will be getting the poll closed shortly.

[Dragon Mage]

Much appreciated, buddy, that's a lot more reasonable. I would also add a switch-off with Christmas every other year as an option. I would widen the amount of events and things for the spriters/artists to work with.

[Pixxelation]

I had been meaning to update the OP for a while, but when you inheri procrastination from your parents, things take longer than they should That, and I had a 4-hour rehearsal for a show I'm in next week.

 

Anyway, off to see my friends in a show they're in this week Bee good while

I'm gone !

[Obscure_Trash]

Closed.

 

Do you think the holidays should be changed?

Yes! Change them to either non-religious or madeup ones instead, so I don't feel left out! [ 18 ] [9.05%]

Possibly, as long as the roots were still the same. [ 11 ] [5.53%]

Maybe. [ 11 ] [5.53%]

I'd rather not, but wouldn't be angry about it if the holidays were changed. [ 48 ] [24.12%]

No! Please don't change them. I love them as is. [ 111 ] [55.78%]

Total Votes: 199

[Pixxelation]

Thanks Sockie!

[Classycal]

A possible addition would be in-cave texts to explain what the DC-specific events are. The following is an example text that would be in-cave for the winter holiday event:

 

As you walk to the caves you usually grab eggs from, you notice a cluster of caravans and tents and decide to stop by. As you get closer, you realize that the Winter Festival, where people of all faiths gather together to celebrate the winter together, has begun! You wander through the tents, awestruck by all the amazing things people have on display. One tent in particular catches your eye, and you decide to check it out.

 

Upon closer inspection, you find it is a stand for (Insert event here). You ask the operator about it, but he says he is still setting up, and asks you to come back on (Insert event date here), when he opens. you feel you are done for now, and continue on your way to the caves.

 

Interesting idea, PieMaster, but a "Winter Festival" in and of itself could be considered religious. I don't think you could ever make everyone happy. I personally like them as they are, but adding a holiday or two might be interesting. Wonder what kind of dragon a Hannukah dragon might look like?

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I think some of what I've said may have been mis-interpreted.. so I'll try to clarify.

 

Yes, I want to change the name of the December holiday. I'm one of those folk who want to remove the word christmas because of the religious reference in the name.

 

But I do NOT want to change the actual event, or remove it or change the date. I just want to remove that one word. I enjoy the winter holiday at DC and my other game sites, I just get tired of being bombarded with a constant reminder of something I do not believe in.

 

However, the primary thing I want changed is that ALL dragons have their OFFICIAL name in their description. Every dragon breed on the site has it's official name in it's adult description, EXCEPT the various yule dragons. Why?

 

In most cases, we have to wait until they grow into adults then ask the spriter what the official name is. We shouldn't have to, since we don't have this issue with other holiday breeds or regular dragons. But in at least one case, the spriter is no longer active and the name is just 'what everyone has decided to call it'.. i.e. Holly dragons. I have no idea if that name is 'official' or if the name just 'stuck' due to constant use.

 

I've been here since before the release of every holiday dragon except the holly, and I've waited patiently for the holiday dragons to grow up and reveal their names.. except that doesn't happen with yule dragons. I remember laughing at the various names folk decided to call the Yulebucks, Snow Angels and others, but I'd much rather KNOW what their name is rather than speculating or waiting for the spriter to let us know the actual name.

 

In summary, I don't want to change the holiday event, I just want to edit the name. And I hope the spriters give us lots and lots of new yule dragons based on anything and everything that's wintery, yuleish, xmasy, or whatever.. just don't make the religous references official.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

However, the primary thing I want changed is that ALL dragons have their OFFICIAL name in their description. Every dragon breed on the site has it's official name in it's adult description, EXCEPT the various yule dragons. Why?

 

[...]

 

In summary, I don't want to change the holiday event, I just want to edit the name. And I hope the spriters give us lots and lots of new yule dragons based on anything and everything that's wintery, yuleish, xmasy, or whatever.. just don't make the religous references official.

Tinsels don't have their name in their descriptions, either. At any rate, I'm not sure why it's such a big deal--it's easy enough to go by either their fan names or their release times (ex: Val 09's) or even the spriter's official names, when they share it. Personally I still prefer the fan names (like Butterbutts) over the official ones at times. Now, don't get me wrong, I'd still like to see some unique descriptions--simply because I enjoy learning about new dragons--but changing things just for the sake of wanting to know names doesn't really seem neccessary. I mean, the only times you really need to use their names is when you're trading, gifting, or requesting, and there's never been much confusion on the holiday swapping front that I could see.

 

Also, even if you removed the name, it'd still be exceedingly obvious it's Christmas-themed. It's released on Christmas. The dragons often look like Christmas things. I don't think pulling the name would make it much less official. Even if you call a hawk a turkey, it's still pretty clear it's a hawk...

 

But anyhoo, as I see it right now, there's four main ideas for how people want this handled:

 

1. Change nothing. My personal favorite, although I'm also coo' with 3 and 4.

 

2. Remove the word Christmas from the dragon's descriptions, but change nothing else. This is the only option I am ADAMANTLY against. Even if you remove the name, Christmas is Christmas. Anyone with any idea of what Christmas is is going to recognize the dragons and the events and the release date for what they are. In only removing the name, you don't help any of the people who felt left out in years past, but you do stand a good chance of upsetting those who want the name to stay.

 

Not to mention that there are already other things in the cave that reference religious things. Valentine's Day has a relation to a saint, and Halloween has a relation to both All Saint's Day and Samhain. One of the 12 Days of Christmas stories has a dragon named St. Nicholas, which while a Santa reference is also in itself a reference to a real Christian saint. There is a very charming Easter egg with a tiny cross on it. And I have several dragons with descriptions that have Christianity mentioned by name in them, and those descriptions cannot at a glance be told apart from the dragon's official text. I imagine I'm not the only one with such dragons, either. You would have to remove all of this to really remove religion from the cave... and since I doubt that's going to happen, why bother with just going through the motions by pulling a single word from a breed description?

 

3. Include elements of other culture's winter holidays in future years. I would be perfectly alright with this, on two conditions: firstly, that the word Christmas be left alone in the old dragons, and secondly, that the addition of other cultures doesn't mean that Christmas is never again represented. Yes, I know that the events have all been Christmas-themed for the past four years. No, that doesn't mean that DC should spend the rest of its history doing things from every other culture while never bringing up Christmas again.

 

4. Make the Christmas event into a general winter celebration event. I would be alright with this one also, although again, I ask that the word Christmas be left alone in the old dragon's descriptions for the reasons mentioned in #2. I'd be happy to see unique descriptions added for those dragons, but it should be an addition to the old, not a replacement.

Edited January 21, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy