Ascension

[angelicdragonpuppy]

And again, I'm saying it doesn't make sense to just turn off the Ascended images. They are a permanent stage...

Actually it makes more sense to have the "keep original" option than it does to not have it. Supposedly, when we look at our accounts, we're looking at our scroll. Aka a very long piece of paper. Which shouldn't be updating our dragon's information without our consent. What I "write" on my scroll at the time of acquiring a given dragon shouldn't change unless I specifically choose to update that information. Why should your choosing to rename or murder your dragon, or your dragon growing old, suddenly cause me to lose track of my previous records?

Edited December 4, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Syphoneira]

I realize that, but it's really NOT the main point of the game. The main point of the game is to raise and collect dragons at your leisure, by whatever means you choose. So no, lineages aren't the main part, no matter what certain people believe. It could be the main part to THEM, but that doesn't make it the main part of the game.

 

I agree, it would disrupt some lovely lineages. But turning them off doesn't make sense. If you can't turn off Zombies or Nocturnes, where the transformation is temporary, why would you be able to turn off ascension, which sounds like a permanent thing?

 

Besides, maybe I want a lineage with an ascension checker or something but I don't like the normal sprites. I'd want ascension off if it ruins the lineage, but on if it makes it better...but that doesn't make sense.

 

 

 

Well, as far as I can see, you'd choose to refer to the older, pre-Ascension, portion of your scroll when viewing lineages you wish to see as intended, and view the updated portion when you wish to see the Ascended dragons.

 

This sounds perfectly reasonable - and fair - to me.

 

Since lineages have long since formed a major part of the game for many people and form a major reason for their being here and are something also strongly affect gifting and trading values, (gifting and trading also having become major parts of the game for many people,) it seems short-sighted, to say the least, to dismiss concerns regarding what may have been years of work on lineages along with everything not related to Cave catching and collection of CBs as not ' the main point of the game' simply because these aspects developed within the DC community rather than having been incorporated within the original game concept and are optional, according to personal interests and tastes.

 

DC has evolved in many areas since its inception while retaining its originality.

 

And I believe that that's a major reason why many play DC who might have little interest in other collecting games.

 

A lot of that interest would shrivel in many people if their beloved lineages were again altered and, in their view, ruined.

 

The existence of the game depends on having enough players to support it; long-term players have demonstrated that they are not fickle; they come to DC because it's important to them, and if the work of years here is, in their view, destroyed, that dedication no longer has a reason; the more players are lost, the less the biomes move, and the more boring and annoying hunting for necessary mates or otherwise needed/wanted dragons becomes, the less likely are new players to start here and stay - and that cycle gains impetus...

 

It's generally a good idea to consider the players when contemplating changes within a game and. where possible, to offer choices so that as few as possible have something which they already have, and value, removed.

 

 

It's just occurred to me that I think that I've expressed my point of view, which happened to differ from yours, on several recent occasions, and do hope that this hasn't been misconstrued and that you understand that I'm also trying to contribute to discussion that's of importance to me and/or others and am not attempting to 'jump all over' your contributions, when all reasonable viewpoints should and need to be involved in such discussion.

 

 

Edit: I like the idea of having an option to view lineages at the time the pertinent dragon was born - that totally makes sense!

Edited December 4, 2013 by Syphoneira

[edwardelricfreak]

I'm making the point that we *should* be able to turn off any lineage *changes*.  So that includes zombies and tombstones that weren't there at the time of getting the egg.  Not Nocturnes, because that's not a change - we know exactly what to expect if we get a lineage with Nocturnes in it.  (Saying "we shouldn't turn ascension off because we can't turn off zombies" is a valid point but not a good counterargument to what I'm personally saying.)

 

That's why I like the idea of being able to see the lineage *at the time the egg's gotten*.  Whatever you get at that point is what you'd see even if it changed later.  So you'd be able to have a lineage with beautiful ascended forms if that's what your egg was.  Or you'd have the lineage look non-ascended if that's what you got for your egg.

 

I'm not saying you're making bad points - a ton of what you're saying makes sense to me.  Just wanted to clarify my own a little

Well when I brought up zombies, I didn't mean someone going and killing+resurrecting a dragon and thus a zombie appears. I was talking about a pre-existing zombie in the lineage and how it changes from normal to tombstone depending on the time of day.

 

Sounds okay, though maybe still a little weird? I'd much prefer that over the other option!

 

Now the problem I see is, this only affects the lineages on your own scroll when you view them. But other people won't see that? Or is it that if you have the option on, you see ANY lineage as it was when that person first got it? A dragon's offspring might look great to you because you see the lineage of the parents and breed it, but then realize when looking at the egg's lineage (or when another person looks at it) it has totally changed and now has dead dragons/renames/ascended dragons, etc.

 

That's why I think it's still weird and really needs some work before it can make sense.

 

Since lineages have long since formed a major part of the game for many people and is a major reason for their being here and are something also strongly affect gifting and trading values, (gifting and trading also having become major parts of the game for many people,) it seems short-sighted, to say the least, to dismiss concerns regarding what may have been years of work on lineages along with everything not related to Cave catching and collection of CBs as not ' the main point of the game' simply because these aspects developed within the DC community rather than having been incorporated within the original game concept and are optional, according to personal interests and tastes.

 

DC has evolved in many areas since its inception while retaining its originality.

 

I'm not saying it's not a major part of the game, I'm saying it's not the main point of the game. (I'm sorry, I said main part earlier but I meant point!) Of COURSE it's a major part of the game, but it is optional and community-driven. The main point of the game is collecting dragons; lineages don't matter unless you personally think they do. The game doesn't care about how many dragons you have, what kinds you have, what lineages, what names, or anything! It just offers you the ability to get dragons and raise/collect them as you please. That's all I'm saying. That's why I don't think, for this suggestion, lineages should be the deciding factor. Just my opinion.~

Edited December 4, 2013 by edwardelricfreak

[Syphoneira]

Lol, trading wasn't a part of the game, but we eventually got Teleport - if the needs of the players were of no account, DC would have perished long ago.

 

 

Edit: I believe that you did actually say 'main point' but as they say, the devil is in the details, and so can the angels be.

 

It's the touches added to make playing better and more fun for players that keeps people here, when they aren't and people aren't having much fun anymore, we begin to lose interest.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Syphoneira

[edwardelricfreak]

Lol, trading wasn't a part of the game, but we eventually got Teleport - if the needs of the players were of no account, DC would have perished long ago.

And trading just added another way to obtain dragons, which is the game's main objective (that's probably better than even saying "point").

 

(Sorry guys, my terminology is all over the place today).

[Syphoneira]

And trading just added another way to obtain dragons, which is the game's main objective (that's probably better than even saying "point").

 

(Sorry guys, my terminology is all over the place today).

 

 

Actually, as far as I recall, TJ used to argue that trading wasn't really a part of the game, and that people had taken advantage of a gap in using codes to try to refresh-catch abandoned dragons in gifting and trading, when he'd intended that they only go to the AP, even though he allowed us to use it.

 

Trading, like lineages, *became* part of the game, along with the community, and DC and all involved have evolved together through the years.

[edwardelricfreak]

I know it became a part of the game. I never said they weren't parts of the game. I never said lineages weren't parts of the game. All I said was that I don't think lineages, which aren't the main objective/point/part/whatever of the game, shouldn't be a deciding factor or other influence for this specific suggestion. I'm sorry that ascended images might mess up some pretty lineages, but as lineages aren't really a fundamental part (breeding is fundamental, lineages are just a secondary thing due to breeding being available. Apparently a long time ago, even though there were lineages, they were unseen and not really paid attention to) I don't think it should have much bearing. Others would argue that point, saying lineages are important enough to consider with this suggestion on ascension, but I don't think so.

 

I'm agreeing with you that the two are parts of the game, and that they are very community driven. That's rather obvious, just from looking at people's signatures.

[Fuzzbucket]

Was it not the Holy Socky who pointed out that Life Happens, and that the ONLY way to be sure your lineage stays as you want it is to create it from your own scroll. Yes, I know that isn't always possible (looks at her own Holiday/white lot) but it will always be the only way to be safe.

 

Or just be VERY careful who you trade with. (as in with real friends who won't do things that change your lines !)

 

Tombstones changes (and ruined deadlines) - golds changed completely and altered appearances - there may or may not be this next (actually I don't even like the idea of ascension, myself, but we all have to live with change.) But if this happens - however it does, in a few months there will be something else that might change the look of a lineage...

 

I would bet all these ideas would be hard to code - not that I have any idea - and I'd rather TJ work on things like ratios (which bother many people a lot more) and organisation of scroll pages (which even bothers me - and mostly I am thoroughly enjoying myself, STILL !)

[BlindWolf]

Can't say I'm really fond of anything that relies on age/seniority, but it looks to be far too late for naysaying of the concept itself to be effective. As far as lineages go, I don't really play that game, but I'm generally a fan of anything that is helpful to the most people. Letting you switch display on and off would let everyone get what they want with the least amount if dissatisfaction and drama. It might not be worth it from a coding perspective, but only TJ can really answer that. Without his input it's really not an angle that can be argued effectively.

[Syphoneira]

Lol, for every person, there is a different opinion from any other person on some thing or another.

 

But if everyone will pardon a repeat from a previous post I made:

 

... It's generally a good idea to consider the players when contemplating changes within a game and, where possible, to offer choices so that as few as possible have something which they already have, and value, removed. ...

 

 

If the main point of the game for many people is at stake, disregarding it because it's 'not the main point of the game' also seems a bit arbitrary.

 

There's a question of courtesy, as well.

 

If it's possible to avoid destroying the work of possibly years by hundreds of people, and possibly also their enjoyment of the game, wouldn't that possibility be a reasonable factor to consider?

[minkymy]

I find it interesting that this is no longer solely a discussion about ascension, but now also a discussion of what the lineage view shows you. Why not make a new thread requesting a feature that give you the option to see a lineage the way it was when a user received the egg? It would solve the problems every lineage user has not only with ascension, but also with zombies and tombstones.

 

[Obscure_Trash]

I find it interesting that this is no longer solely a discussion about ascension, but now also a discussion of what the lineage view shows you. Why not make a new thread requesting a feature that give you the option to see a lineage the way it was when a user received the egg? It would solve the problems every lineage user has not only with ascension, but also with zombies and tombstones.

http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=156742

 

Since it is being specifically discussed as it pertains to ascension, I don't care if discussion on it continues here. :3

[minkymy]

Wait, will all dragons where we can find the artist and get their permission to allow ascension be able to ascend, or will rares be unable to ascend?

[edwardelricfreak]

Wait, will all dragons where we can find the artist and get their permission to allow ascension be able to ascend, or will rares be unable to ascend?

Well this is the list of all of the artists for the dragons and their permissions and means of communication. I don't know if all of the dragons would ascend, and I'm not sure if rares would. It's possible, but maybe only for older ones.

[Troubletail]

I know this is coming into the discussion really late and is taking things in a rather different direction, but what are your thoughts about the possibility of Guardians of Nature breeding ascended versions of the other parent, as initially proposed here?

 

Thematically, GoNs are supposed to be forces of nature with abilities beyond those of other dragons, but on the site itself there's very little that can be done with them after they've been successfully summoned. Allowing them to breed ascendeds by passing on a bit of their power to their offspring could be a way to embody that idea and expand their interactivity without eliminating the two-per-scroll limit. They’re also difficult enough to obtain that it would keep ascendeds as special and rare, while still achievable by most users given sufficient time and effort.

 

Having ascended dragons be something bred rather than something transformed would also bypass the lineage issue, since they would have no more effect on existing lineages than any other newly released hybrid.

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I know this is coming into the discussion really late and is taking things in a rather different direction, but what are your thoughts about the possibility of Guardians of Nature breeding ascended versions of the other parent, as initially proposed here?

 

Thematically, GoNs are supposed to be forces of nature with abilities beyond those of other dragons, but on the site itself there's very little that can be done with them after they've been successfully summoned. Allowing them to breed ascendeds by passing on a bit of their power to their offspring could be a way to embody that idea and expand their interactivity without eliminating the two-per-scroll limit. They’re also difficult enough to obtain that it would keep ascendeds as special and rare, while still achievable by most users given sufficient time and effort.

 

Having ascended dragons be something bred rather than something transformed would also bypass the lineage issue, since they would have no more effect on existing lineages than any other newly released hybrid.

I'd be against it. "Ascended" implies a change; something has become greater than it was before. A baby dragon being born in ascended-mode doesn't really suggest such a transformation... I think ascension makes more since as something that can only happen for very old and wise dragons.

 

(Also imagine how much salt would be rubbed in the wounds of those who have had no luck summoning GoNs, if now they also have to miss out on Ascension for just as long ;; )

[DragonLady86]

I know this is coming into the discussion really late and is taking things in a rather different direction, but what are your thoughts about the possibility of Guardians of Nature breeding ascended versions of the other parent, as initially proposed here?

 

Thematically, GoNs are supposed to be forces of nature with abilities beyond those of other dragons, but on the site itself there's very little that can be done with them after they've been successfully summoned.  Allowing them to breed ascendeds by passing on a bit of their power to their offspring could be a way to embody that idea and expand their interactivity without eliminating the two-per-scroll limit.  They’re also difficult enough to obtain that it would keep ascendeds as special and rare, while still achievable by most users given sufficient time and effort. 

 

Having ascended dragons be something bred rather than something transformed would also bypass the lineage issue, since they would have no more effect on existing lineages than any other newly released hybrid.

As I said in the other thread, I think it could be an excellent solution.

 

PROS:

It won't affect lineages.

you won't have to search for a scroll/potion/whatever and then pick which dragon you most want to ascend, with high possible fail rate on the search. (idea from original ascension thread)

You won't be limited to dragons that are X years old. (also from original thread)

For people that only want to collect a certain number of any dragon, you won't have to now get "extra" just to acquire the ascended sprite.

Your only limited by how often you can breed the GoN.

 

CONS:

GoNs are hard to summon. Sometimes it takes years.

GoNs are a limited breed, at most you have 2 adults to breed every week.

The Hidden thread has better ideas(?)

 

Personal thoughts: I don't see much difference between GoN's are hard to summon and "dragon needs to be so many years old before it can ascend". Both take time and pretty much rule out newer players on this. At least everyone has a chance to get a GoN at anytime, where as nothing but time will make a dragon 3 years old.

 

With GoNs being a limited breed also keeps the ascension rarer and something to work at for everyone.

 

And if a better solution has been found, well that's great, but no way of knowing about it hinders that argument.

 

 

Edit: for grammer fail

Edited December 18, 2013 by DragonLady86

[BlindWolf]

I know this is coming into the discussion really late and is taking things in a rather different direction, but what are your thoughts about the possibility of Guardians of Nature breeding ascended versions of the other parent, as initially proposed here?

 

Thematically, GoNs are supposed to be forces of nature with abilities beyond those of other dragons, but on the site itself there's very little that can be done with them after they've been successfully summoned. Allowing them to breed ascendeds by passing on a bit of their power to their offspring could be a way to embody that idea and expand their interactivity without eliminating the two-per-scroll limit. They’re also difficult enough to obtain that it would keep ascendeds as special and rare, while still achievable by most users given sufficient time and effort.

 

Having ascended dragons be something bred rather than something transformed would also bypass the lineage issue, since they would have no more effect on existing lineages than any other newly released hybrid.

I don't like this idea at all. You're not ascending a dragon, you're breeding some weird hybrid. There's no ascension at any point. This isn't a new life stage for dragons but some alternate species. Plus the idea of having to run my GoN around like some sort of dragon escort with all of my ladies is really strange.

[tjekan]

I don't like this idea at all. You're not ascending a dragon, you're breeding some weird hybrid.

On the other hand, ascended dragons do kind of make a little more sense as "demigod dragons" (with divine parentage) than dragons that are simply a year or two old. By those standards, the vast majority of dragons in the gameworld would be ascended. If the ascended forms are going to be rarish, then making them have divine blood (a comparative rarity) would fit that bill.

 

It would mean we couldn't have CB's of them, so I can see why people would object on gameplay terms, but from a thematic POV, it makes sense!

 

(And my ultimate wish for ascended BSA's would be MASS BSA's... like, use Fertility to affect ALL the dragons on your scroll, or all the dragons in a particular breed. That would be SO USEFUL! :-D )

[BlindWolf]

On the other hand, ascended dragons do kind of make a little more sense as "demigod dragons" (with divine parentage) than dragons that are simply a year or two old. By those standards, the vast majority of dragons in the gameworld would be ascended. If the ascended forms are going to be rarish, then making them have divine blood (a comparative rarity) would fit that bill.

 

It would mean we couldn't have CB's of them, so I can see why people would object on gameplay terms, but from a thematic POV, it makes sense!

 

(And my ultimate wish for ascended BSA's would be MASS BSA's... like, use Fertility to affect ALL the dragons on your scroll, or all the dragons in a particular breed. That would be SO USEFUL! :-D )

I like the idea of a demigod GoN hybrid, I really do, not with all dragons or anything but one based on a sort of scaled down GoN that's the same from any other parent, but this suggestion as I understand it is more about having an old, wise dragon that's above its younger peers. A wise king in contrast to the brash son of a god, if we're looking at it from a mythology angle.

[Sextonator]

Has anyone suggested Ascension being an option after a dragon reaches x age, but with the success rate of summoning a GoN?

 

I don't think the age should be too large, maybe a week or two. And then a prerequisite could be having at least one other member of the breed you're trying to ascend. Though that may be a bit unfair to those who have extreme trouble acquiring rares, unless for those specific breeds the amount required is zero. Idk just adding on to my question, sorry. |D

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Has anyone suggested Ascension being an option after a dragon reaches x age, but with the success rate of summoning a GoN?

 

I don't think the age should be too large, maybe a week or two. And then a prerequisite could be having at least one other member of the breed you're trying to ascend. Though that may be a bit unfair to those who have extreme trouble acquiring rares, unless for those specific breeds the amount required is zero. Idk just adding on to my question, sorry. |D

A week or two is way too little. What's special or wise about it if a dragon only has to live as long as their childhood lasted to ascend? That's like calling a 40 year old ancient...

 

Also against the idea of having to have another dragon of the breed to ascend.

Edited December 18, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[DragonLady86]

Has anyone suggested Ascension being an option after a dragon reaches x age, but with the success rate of summoning a GoN?

 

I don't think the age should be too large, maybe a week or two. And then a prerequisite could be having at least one other member of the breed you're trying to ascend. Though that may be a bit unfair to those who have extreme trouble acquiring rares, unless for those specific breeds the amount required is zero. Idk just adding on to my question, sorry. |D

The original thread suggested the dragon would have to be so old, but they wanted years not weeks. Which I'm rather against. The point was for it to be rare/something for members with finished scroll goals to work on, rather than for newer players.

[rumor33]

I do think it would need to be a significant amount of time before the option is open. Maybe the real time equivalent of a significant age in DC time? when the dragon turns 100 or 500? I know someone figured out the approximate aging at one point...

 

Also, I don't get why both an Alt and a regular would turn into the same dragon. The color palettes for regular Blacks and especially Vines is different enough from the alts that I think it would look odd for them to turn into the exact same dragon. Though I would be okay for them turning into the same basic sprite, but the alt gets a more appropriate recolor.

[minkymy]

Also, I don't get why both an Alt and a regular would turn into the same dragon. The color palettes for regular Blacks and especially Vines is different enough from the alts that I think it would look odd for them to turn into the exact same dragon. Though I would be okay for them turning into the same basic sprite, but the alt gets a more appropriate recolor.

^this.

There are morphological differences between some of the alts and their basic counterparts, to the point where you could easily pass them off as different breeds. It would make no sense for them to ascend to the same appearance.

 

When you think about it, not having ascended alts would defeat the purpose of an alt. Alts are supposed to be different versions of the same species with a unique sprite that only has a small chance of appearing. If your alt and basic sprites ascend up to the same sprite, what's the point of the alt? The dragon now looks like any other dragon of its breed. It is no longer an alt. No one would ascend an alt if it just looks like a normal dragon when you do that.

 

Furthermore, I'm firmly against the GoN hybrid angle. The point of ascension is that an old, old dragon ascends to a higher level after years of experiences and wisdom. I mean, a GoN hybrid by itself would be pretty cool, but I don't think it should get mixed in with ascension.