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[Obscure_Trash]

The thread was moved to the BSA section where it's currently the most recently posted in: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=161807

 

I debated leaving a path when I moved it, but thought it was getting enough attention it would be easy enough to see from the BSA section. I do apologize. I'll leave a path in the future. :3

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Thank you for explaining.

 

I quit checking the BSA forum months ago because the arguements over RP reasons always got too heated, and think most of the RP reasons for allowing or disallowing BSAs make absolutely no sense from a non-RP viewpoint.

 

Not to be annoying, but while there was mention of a BSA to allow adult trading, it was only one suggestion among many. So I don't understand why the topic was moved from the main Suggestions forum. I'm afraid I feel like you're trying to hide the topic, and that makes me uncomfortable.

[Obscure_Trash]

It was decided a while back that alterations to current BSAs belonged in the BSA section as well and topics were moved accordingly. Our problem was that people were putting such alteration topics in both the BSA section and in Suggestions/Requests. We thought consistency would be better and after a short discussion, agreed to try out the BSA section. You can see what users brought up in regards to this here. I will note that after discussion, I moved the topics back to Suggestions. They were then moved back to the BSA section I believe so that we could at least try a trial period with BSA topics belonging there. Although I understand user viewpoints, I would like to draw more attention to the BSA section rather than it continuing to be a place where people do not like to tread.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

The problem I see with that is the RP issue. As long as BSA's have to have an RP reason to exist the entire concept is flawed, IMO.

 

I don't RP my dragons and don't appreciate being ridiculed when I try to find non-RP reasons for BSAs. I find the BSA guidelines too vague and the need for RP reasons unjustified, therefore I totally avoid that subforum.

 

Moving a topic that just happens to mention something that might conceivably become a BSA, is just not a good enough reason to move it out of the main forum. The discussion was comparitively mild and was staying on topic nicely. There was no reason to move it to a place where fewer folk would see it. Because I know I'm not the only player to avoid the BSA subforum due to the general atmosphere found there.

[Obscure_Trash]

It wasn't moved because it might become a BSA; it was moved because it involves altering a current BSA (teleport) as far as I understand it. It is seven pages long that were all posted while I was away so I have not read completely through it. If it's just asking to be a general action (the OP is vague), it will be moved back to suggestions/requests. :3

 

"RP reasons" doesn't have to be anything in depth - it just has to comply with the given breed description/make sense for the dragon. (Ie a dragon described as non-magical shouldn't be given a BSA that involves using a lot of magic to accomplish it.) I think suggestions require some explanation as to how they work as well, although we don't have any suggestions-specific guidelines. It's just something that's been specifically stated in the BSA guidelines to do. ^^

 

Again, I know a lot of people dislike the BSA section. I would like to help evolve the BSA section so that more people post there and feel free to post there rather than just staying as is and having it be a section people don't ever click on. Working on the guidelines is definitely something we can do if you can expand on why/where you think they are too vague.

[purplehaze]

I will admit that I was very puzzled when I went to look for that thread this morning. I did finally notice it in the BSA section, but ONLY because it was the last thing posted there and so the title showed. Otherwise I never would have thought of looking there for it.

 

I think the emphasis on RP in the BSA section is all user driven. What Sock says is needed seems very different from what I see users insisting on in just about every suggestion thread we have (not just the BSA ones). They get so hung up on RP stuff that the actual suggestion gets lost in the clutter.

 

edited for punctuation fail

Edited June 14, 2014 by purplehaze

[Cinnamin Draconna]

They are too vague because the dragon descriptions are too vague to start with. It's hard to come up with a viable reason for ANY dragon to have a BSA because the basic dragon descriptions don't contain enough detail to start with.

 

Mention something that isn't in the dragon description and everyone jumps on you for being stupid, because the description doesn't contain anything to do with your suggested BSA. So it's a total waste of time to even try until either the dragon descriptions are expanded... or needing an RP reason to justify BSAs is no longer a rule.

 

And FYI, adult trading would NOT change Teleport. It only changes what is allowed to be Teleported.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Cinnamin Draconna

[edwardelricfreak]

Well I mean, the description for the BSA section DOES say:

Planning new BSAs and discussing changes to existing ones.

 

This IS a change to Teleport, thus it is in there. Yes, it's just adding stuff to Teleport, but that's still a change.

 

Personally I'd rather the changes to existing BSAs be in regular suggestions, or be in a separate section for improving them, because the other than the regular Suggestions and DR section, the rest of them get little to no attention. It's a horrible place to get any input on existing BSAs because everyone just assumes it's where you post ideas for new ones.

[Obscure_Trash]

I think the emphasis on RP in the BSA section is all user driven. What Sock says is needed seems very different from what I see users insisting on in just about every suggestion thread we have (not just the BSA ones). They get so hung up on RP stuff that the actual suggestion gets lost in the clutter.

 

They are too vague because the dragon descriptions are too vague to start with. It's hard to come up with a viable reason for ANY dragon to have a BSA because the basic dragon descriptions don't contain enough detail to start with.

 

I do concur with these. I'll see if I can come up with anything with the other mods so we can make a few edits to the guidelines and clear this up. I'll try also to post more when users start getting sidetracked with too detailed RP stuff (although I tried that in one topic and was disagreed with and eventually one of the conceptors came on and disagreed with my assessment as well, lol).

 

~

 

I backtracked a bit and double moved the thread so there's now a path. Hopefully that helps.

[xeyla]

Can we have the BSA section split into 2 sections:

New BSA suggestions

Existing BSA suggestions

[whitebaron]

BSA and DR sections are a horrible place to be, if you are not interested in the DC RP. One small misstep, even if you are interested, will get you flailed. It's not an environment where I'd like to discuss anything, and sadly, this also happens often in the main suggestions. (topics being squelched by RP "enforcers" for the lack of a better word.)

[olympe]

You mean like the suggestion to make purple dinos breedable with dragons?

 

However, we are given the guideline that stuff should make sense without giving "It's magic!" as a reason for why it works.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I think that part of the problem are the original BSA's; in most cases, the BSA doesn't match anything in the description anyway. So now it's impossible to find anything that does match.

 

Purple description..

It was previously believed that purple dragons were exclusively female, but this is not the case. Recent environmental shifts have revealed the existence of both genders of this breed. Female behavior is well known; they are primarily herbivores but will eat meat during mating season. On the other hand, very little is known about the behavior and habits of male purple dragons.

What does any of that have to do with Fertility?

 

Pink description..

Pink dragons are primarily herbivores and only eat meat during the mating season, when mates will exchange kills. When it is not breeding season, pink dragons spend most of their time incubating eggs and caring for their clan’s young. Due to their feminine color, it was traditionally thought that pink dragons were a strictly female breed, but this is not true.

What does any of that have to do with Influence?

 

Magi description..

Magi dragons are, as their name suggests, primarily magic users. They rarely use physical forms of attack. They eat anything they can kill, which is almost everything. They won’t kill unprovoked except when hunting, although they may kill humans if in danger. Their strong magic makes them one of the most feared breeds of dragons.

We got cheated on this one, the most powerful magic using dragon in the game and it got assigned Teleport. Using a Skywing for this one would have made much more sense and then we could have used the Magi for hatchling Incubate.

 

I remember this from the initial debate but nooooooooooo, TJ wanted the Magi for Teleport. Just like he decided that Purples were best for Fertility and Pinks for Influence. Now those weren't bad choices, but it wasn't 'our' choice, it was all TJ on those first ones.

 

And now we're stuck with the consequences; there has to be a 'reason' for a particular dragon to have a BSA. The fact thet the reasons need to be RP related, just makes it worse. THEN it also has to be part of the dragon description too, but guess what, MOST of the dragons barely have any description at all. Not to mention that unless the original designer likes the idea, then the whole thing gets nixed anyway regardless of how many players agree.

 

The whole BSA concept is flawed as is, and until the RP reasoning is removed and we have better dragon descriptions to work with, it can not be fixed. Which makes the entire BSA section worthless to anyone except the RPers. The rest of us aren't welcome there, so we avoid the place like a plague.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Cinnamin Draconna

[edwardelricfreak]

Well, with Pinks, there's something about them having sensitive pads on their paws that can tell what temperature an egg is so they can regulate it and make it gender one way or the other, blah blah blah, nothing in the actual description.

 

I don't really know why Purples got Fertility either. Probably something extraneous that we'll see in the Encyclopedia but isn't even hinted at in the description.

 

I would say Teleport was kind of cheating. The Magi are strong magic users, so I guess for once, it does make sense to say "it's magic!" because it fits. While there are a few other magic users, they have specialized magic more than anything: Blacks have good offensive magic, Whites heal, etc.

 

Actually even Expunge is a little weird, as Soulpeace dragons are only rumored to lift curses, and by that token it doesn't even specify zombie curses. I also don't even know if I would consider the zombification process a 'curse' or not. Yes, the magic backfired, but that's not what I think of when I think of a curse. I think of a curse as a hex or other malicious spell, something a Black dragon might be good at, maybe. I don't think of it as a backfiring reviving spell. :\ Just my opinion, though.

 

As for Incubate, I think a lot of dragons that are either very warm or live in warm places or make warm nests should all be able to Incubate. I'm honestly not sure why Reds are the only ones that do. I think the only mention of any heat source in their description is that they breathe fire, but there are a few others that can, like Hellfires, Hellhorses, and Spitfires, to name a few. Embers may not be warm themselves, but they are often around smoldering embers, so why they can't incubate eggs using that heat source is beyond me. And then of course there are the Spotted Greenwings which explicitly say in their descriptions that they are unusually warm.

 

I'd really like to see those other heat-related dragons get a version of Incubate, just saying.

 

But anyway, ranting aside, BSAs are really really weird. I want them to make sense, but the current ones already don't quite seem to fit, at least from the information that is readily available on-site. Hopefully the Encyclopedia makes up for that, but as it currently stands, other than the Magi, there's not much that makes any of the BSAs make sense.

 

At least the proposed 'Heal' BSA for Whites WOULD have made complete sense. The Greens having Earthquake and Vampires having Bite DO make sense. Green descriptions actually say they have power over the earth and they can make earthquakes. Vampires are self-explanatory. Also, I'd say the trios make sense, too.

 

I'm just....frustrated. We need RP reasons for BSAs so they fit a breed, that much is definitely true. But if we only have the descriptions and maybe extra info currently found on the wiki, and someone suggests something that isn't found in the info, how are we supposed to know if the dragon can do that or not until the creator comes by? The Encyclopedia will at least put the extra info actually on the site, but even afterwards, we still wouldn't know if a dragon could do something unless it's explicitly stated they can't do that.

[GalaxyPassion13]

As for Incubate, I think a lot of dragons that are either very warm or live in warm places or make warm nests should all be able to Incubate. I'm honestly not sure why Reds are the only ones that do. I think the only mention of any heat source in their description is that they breathe fire, but there are a few others that can, like Hellfires, Hellhorses, and Spitfires, to name a few. Embers may not be warm themselves, but they are often around smoldering embers, so why they can't incubate eggs using that heat source is beyond me. And then of course there are the Spotted Greenwings which explicitly say in their descriptions that they are unusually warm.

I see what you're saying, but I think it might be that reds are the only dragon patient and non-violent enough to actually incubate the eggs. Hellfires, hell horses, embers, magmas... they're all pretty violent, as most "fire-breathing" dragons are. I'm probably wrong that the reds are the only ones patient enough, but that's just my thoughts. Anyways, I see your point about them all

Edited June 14, 2014 by GalaxyPassion13

[edwardelricfreak]

The Hellfires say that the violent nature is learned, so I don't see that being a problem. c:

[HeatherMarie]

I must admit that I'm often one to jump to DC RP, point out descriptions, etc, when it comes to suggestions. But that's because we've been *told* to, and it's in the guidelines. Have to make sense for the breed, etc etc.

 

But yes, I definitely agree that BSAs as a whole have been treated unfairly. Original BSAs are based off things that seem fairly arbitrary and are *not* in the description, and then we get told on-forum that any further BSAs need to make sense for the breed. It doesn't make sense.

[edwardelricfreak]

I guess to be fair, that's an "in the past" thing we're trying to get away from.

 

Likewise, it's why we're trying to make the dragons in DR have better anatomy, more contrast, no props, etc as opposed to the older dragons. Some people still try to use the "but ____ is like that and it's in-cave!"

 

Course, if we try to even suggest touching the older sprites to make them conform with newer rules, there's a LOT of pushback. We've seen that with the golds, we've seen that in the discussion about possible new silvers, etc.

 

So long as the new stuff follows the rules, then I guess the old stuff doesn't matter. We should use those as examples of what not to do, what used to be okay, and what to get away from now. So for BSAs, we can add a bit more reason as to why the older dragons have weird BSAs, and for new ones we'll make sure they fit.

Edited June 15, 2014 by edwardelricfreak

[RainDear]

I think that part of the problem are the original BSA's; in most cases, the BSA doesn't match anything in the description anyway. So now it's impossible to find anything that does match.

 

Purple description..

It was previously believed that purple dragons were exclusively female, but this is not the case. Recent environmental shifts have revealed the existence of both genders of this breed. Female behavior is well known; they are primarily herbivores but will eat meat during mating season. On the other hand, very little is known about the behavior and habits of male purple dragons.

What does any of that have to do with Fertility?

 

Pink description..

Pink dragons are primarily herbivores and only eat meat during the mating season, when mates will exchange kills. When it is not breeding season, pink dragons spend most of their time incubating eggs and caring for their clan’s young. Due to their feminine color, it was traditionally thought that pink dragons were a strictly female breed, but this is not true.

What does any of that have to do with Influence?

 

Magi description..

Magi dragons are, as their name suggests, primarily magic users. They rarely use physical forms of attack. They eat anything they can kill, which is almost everything. They won’t kill unprovoked except when hunting, although they may kill humans if in danger. Their strong magic makes them one of the most feared breeds of dragons.

We got cheated on this one, the most powerful magic using dragon in the game and it got assigned Teleport. Using a Skywing for this one would have made much more sense and then we could have used the Magi for hatchling Incubate.

 

I remember this from the initial debate but nooooooooooo, TJ wanted the Magi for Teleport. Just like he decided that Purples were best for Fertility and Pinks for Influence. Now those weren't bad choices, but it wasn't 'our' choice, it was all TJ on those first ones.

 

And now we're stuck with the consequences; there has to be a 'reason' for a particular dragon to have a BSA. The fact thet the reasons need to be RP related, just makes it worse. THEN it also has to be part of the dragon description too, but guess what, MOST of the dragons barely have any description at all. Not to mention that unless the original designer likes the idea, then the whole thing gets nixed anyway regardless of how many players agree.

 

The whole BSA concept is flawed as is, and until the RP reasoning is removed and we have better dragon descriptions to work with, it can not be fixed. Which makes the entire BSA section worthless to anyone except the RPers. The rest of us aren't welcome there, so we avoid the place like a plague.

As I recall, the Skywings were brought forward for the Teleport BSA, but the spriter was opposed to it.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Yeah, and I've NEVER agreed with that. Allowing ONE person to nix an idea that MANY players wanted has NEVER set well with me. This is the only collecting game I know of that allows the artists to maintain absolute control over their designs. Every other game I know of becomes the new owner and arbiter of any artwork added to the game. And personally, I think that should be implemented here too.. then maybe we can avoid another catastrophe like happened with the Frills. Not to mention all the artwork that was removed from the completed list because another artist got all ticked off and pulled their designs.

[edwardelricfreak]

Well, I do think it's fine to allow conceptors, who have more knowledge about the dragon species than anyone else, to come in and say what the dragon is/isn't able to do.

 

But you're right, I don't like it when they turn down a suggest just because they don't like it. There's a difference in personal preference and what the dragon can/can't do.

[Fiona]

How can there be a difference in the conceptor's personal preference and what a conceptor says a dragon can or can't do? since the conceptor is the one who dreamed up everything about the dragon, including behaviors and abilities. Their personal vision for the dragon is what gives the dragon all known behaviors and abilities.

[edwardelricfreak]

Usually there isn't much difference, but I'd say the thing with Teleport is more of creator's preference over what could be done. And I know that for the proposed 'Harmonize' BSA for the Fleshcrownes, Tikigurl said it was just her preference that it should be one-shot, though she didn't say they couldn't do it more than once. :Y

 

If it were me, even if I didn't really like an idea, if it made sense for the dragon to do that, I think I would be okay with it in the end.

[olympe]

Just a suggestion: Maybe we should move this discussion to the BSA section so we can discuss the BSA-related problems there?

 

I mean, some stuff just might get better with the encyclopedia - if it contains more info on a breed, that is. But we could also consider things like allowing BSAs to become more of a "element-specific action" in some cases. As someone here pionted out, Incubate i ssomething every fire-related breed should be able to do.

[Vhale]

How can there be a difference in the conceptor's personal preference and what a conceptor says a dragon can or can't do? since the conceptor is the one who dreamed up everything about the dragon, including behaviors and abilities. Their personal vision for the dragon is what gives the dragon all known behaviors and abilities.

I'm going to guess that it inadvertently gives a single creator veto power over a suggestion. All they have to do to kill it is say, well on my dragon it must be this way: insert bad idea killing option.