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[LibbyLishly]

I personally really don't really want more rules sticky's. For one, there's already plenty of sticky's in this section (as there are in most!). For two, I really don't think a sticky is necessary to say so few things. PLUS that's really already covered by the board rules under the spam/disrespect rules. Just start reporting posts like that to me, guys. Mods will step up in tackling those posts and keeping threads on topic, but it'll be easier to stay on top of if you help by reporting.

See, I was always kind of terrified that I'd get a warn for overusing the report button. It's good to know that this sort of thing is totally okay to report. *Will be using said button on Certain Phrases in the future*

[cyradis4]

True. I'm not sure if it was because there weren't any other reasons or whether that one was the most expedient and easy to type reason.

I only skimmed that thread, my impression was either people were mentally lazy and were just repeating something that sounded good or that people probably did genuinely think it would have been really hard. It sounded hard, if you don't know programming. And it may have been impossible. Or it could have been dirt simple.

 

I've seen people do that before too, say an idea was super hard and not worth it when I've done similar things with a few lines of coding. It all depends on the program. And I'm no programmer, I've just done pretty basic stuff. A dabbler, I guess you could say.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Renorei]

Not too sure about this one, often bouncing around ideas that are variations of the original idea can lead someone to a completely new idea that might be worth considering. Isn't that basically how we finally came to the resolution on lifting holiday limits?

Also I disagree with point 3. I think people can discuss the pros / cons of any modification to the idea, wether or not its in the OP. I've seen some OPs that were just.... really a bad idea, but with some tweaking it became a great idea.

I strongly disagree. As the argument evolves, the ideas evolve and OPs go inactive.

On the final one, what if the OP isn't up to date, will we not be allowed to discuss someone else' potential modification to an idea just because it isn't in the OP? We should be allowed to discuss whatever ideas are put forth, even if they are not strictly "in the OP". Sometimes, an OP will propose a change to the idea to see how it is taken before updating, is that somehow off limits too? Worded as it is, that is how people will take it even if that was not your intention.

 

I see what you guys are saying. Maybe that particular suggestion is too harsh. I just feel like there needs to be something in place when you make a thread in S&R with your idea, and then someone in the thread proposes a similar-but-with-a-key-difference idea in the same thread, and then people start responding to that idea with things they think are negatives of that idea, even though the things that would have made that other idea bad aren't necessarily traits that are shared by the idea in the OP. It's annoying, and it isn't really fair to the person who made thread because they end up with people not supporting their idea, but that lack-of-support may have more to do with the other idea that cropped up in the thread rather than the actual idea being proposed. It happened in the "multi-clutch for prize dragons thread." That thread is suggesting a mechanic wherein CB prizes could multi-clutch 4 eggs, 2nd gens could multi-clutch 3, and so forth. Then someone said that it should apply to all prize dragons, including high-gens. Then other people start talking about how "this idea" is going to lead to an overload of high-gen prize dragons, when that wasn't even part of the suggestion. I'm not trying to squash creativity or quell discussion, but I do think when someone proposes an alternate idea that is similar-but-fundamentally-different to the idea in the OP and there are at least a few people keen on discussing it, it's time for a new thread, unless the OP decides they want to include the alternate idea in the OP post.

 

When the original posters leave but people still want to discuss their idea and the OP post is getting out-of-date...either a mod should step in and edit it or a new thread should be made, perhaps merging the old one into the new one (which I know is backwards to how it's normally done, but it makes more sense for situations like this).

 

I still wouldn't make these warnable offenses, that seems kind of harsh, to be blunt, especially for the slippery slope thing. More of consider them things to be discouraged, rather than rules.

I agree with Nectaris, having them strongly discouraged by the mods instead of warnable should take care of the problem.

 

I guess I feel differently in that I don't think warnings are that serious. I used to get warns all the time for minor things (hi Sock!). They certainly weren't the end of the world. Have the mods started giving out fewer warnings in general and now warnings are considered "serious"?

 

But in any case, if people would prefer, these could be guidelines instead of rules.

 

In addition to the language barrier, would you judge... no warn and punish people based not on their ability to reason and distinguish a non-slippery slope argument from a slippery slope argument when clarity of expression should be the main goal?

 

Again, I really don't consider warnings to be that serious (punishment??). But, if other people think warnings are a big deal it doesn't have to be warnings. Presumably in the thread with these guidelines there would be an explanation of each kind of argument that shouldn't be made and an example of each thing "not to do" so even users of a different language should be able to understand. If they understand English well enough to read any S&R threads at all, they can probably understand a simple explanation of a slippery slope argument.

 

Comparisons are usually utilised as evidence in an argument. Without comparisons, people would have little to no basis at all for providing evidence for their points. For example, if political leaders are making decisions for their people, they would often refer to examples of events which occurred in the past to backup their judgements.

 

What I'm referring to is situations where someone comes into a thread in S&R, reads about an idea, realizes that it's incompatible with some other idea (that they like better, which also isn't in the game yet and may never get added), and uses that as the basis for their non-support. I don't think that's really "playing fair" so to speak. Each idea ought to be evaluated on its own.

[cyradis4]

Warns are serious, they are an indication of rule breaking and they are meant to discourage repeat behavior. A lot like a short stint in a jail cell is.

 

I think the only time in my on-line existence I've gotten any sort of warn was for implied profanity on another site (I used "SNAFU", and well, I can understand how that would fall under implied profanity so it was deserved.) I think I've come pretty close a few other times though.

 

So yes. Warns are serious. They are not good. Some people get really bent out of shape over them. Just like some people don't care if they spend a few nights in a jail cell and others freak. Really freak.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Obscure_Trash]

The only time you'll be warned for using the report feature is if you're using it to insult mods or something. If we think you're sending us too many warns on circumstances that don't need it, we'll just send you a PM and talk it out with you. :3

 

~

 

Er, I really wouldn't compare warns to a night in jail. If we're going the jail/police route, I'd compare it more to a cop pulling you over and letting you off with a warning. A short posting moderation is like getting a ticket. No posting is like probation. Being suspended is then like being thrown in jail. But they're really wildly different circumstances, so... x3

 

Are warns something to be taken seriously? Yes. It's a mod letting you know something you did broke board rules and you should try to avoid that in the future. But is it the end of the world? No. We don't want to terrorize people with rules. They're just an easy way to notify people that they've gone a little off track, as well as an easy way to let other mods looking at the situation later see that it's already been taken care of. :3

[HeatherMarie]

I have to come out and say it: This past 2-3 pages have made me never want to post in Suggestions again. And frankly, it seems like that is *exactly* the kind of thing that would happen, if everything that's been posted about was warn-able.

 

We can't respond to a completely-unrealistic request saying that TJ has already said no. We can't respond saying that most users probably won't like it. We can't respond saying that it would be too much work. No slippery-slope arguments.

 

The longer the "don't" list gets, the less and less likely that people will feel *comfortable* posting in these threads. I'm sorry, but if us older users *can't* tell newbies that a suggestion has already been rolled over many times and the result was most posters not liking the idea..... I honestly don't see many threads going far at *all* if every single post has to be COMPLETELY that user's opinion and ONLY that user's opinion with NO reference to anything else. I simply don't understand why trying to HELP the OP by explaining why the suggestion won't work is such a bad thing! If the spriters have said no, but we can't SAY that... If TJ has said no, but we can't SAY that.... Heck, we might as well not have a public Suggestion forum at all.

[whitebaron]

That's what mods and the report button are for, though, not users and their newbie smackdowm mode.

 

That aside: TJ has basically said himself, that we as users should neither use his previous "no" as the be-all, end-all, as well as he hss said, that coding only he can judge.

 

Btw: See what this above statement can do to this discussion even though it is true and was brought up before and could be linked as well?

Edited February 9, 2014 by whitebaron

[Renorei]

I honestly don't see many threads going far at *all* if every single post has to be COMPLETELY that user's opinion and ONLY that user's opinion

If the idea is a bad idea, the thread doesn't need to go very far. A page or so of users posting some variant of "I don't like this idea because X" is a GOOD thing because the OP will quickly realize that their idea just isn't very good or most respondents don't like it.

 

Explaining *why* the idea is a bad idea would be fine as long as you aren't talking about things you don't know anything about (i.e. how hard it would be to code, whether the ratios would support it...we don't know any of those things and it's disingenuous of us to act like we do).

 

If users generally didn't like an idea in the past and there is an old thread to prove it, post a link to that in the new thread and the new thread can be merged with the old thread or closed as a duplicate.

 

 

 

My intention with suggesting that some guidelines (not warnable rules) be made for S&R is to discourage posts that needlessly quell discussion, discourage users from speaking on behalf of other people, discourage the use of logical fallacies when discussing ideas, discourage people from positioning themselves as some kind of authority on things they don't know enough about, discourage people from going off on tangents about fundamentally different ideas, etc. In other words, I think we should try to discourage bad discussion and encourage more/better discussion. Threads would actually go *farther* with such guidelines in place (if people followed them).

[Fuzzbucket]

I'd say, the Nostalgia thread is a case in point. The "Its so much work!" did shut the idea down. Quickly. When the truth is, no one knows how much work it would have taken. I can think of several ways it could have been easy to do. And twice that many ways it would have been brutal! It all depended on what TJ did and didn't have, what the cave's coding is like. And only he knows that. Mind, I wouldn't have wanted a Nostalgia day. I think the new cave is SUCH an improvement!

No - the nostalgia thread was shut down because - as I and Sock pointed out - we can't put up the old sprites as they were in breach of copyright, so legally it was a non-starter. (I admit I did also say it would be a lot of work (yes OK I won't say that again !) for one day which would not do anything for the GAME !)

 

Just saying as a point of fact ! I do agree that remarks like "Don't overload TJ" should not get threads closed.

 

And posts saying "the majority of players want this" are REALLY annoying, actually ! We have NO idea; generally there are perhaps 30 people in a thread, mostly split in two camps... as far as I know (I hesitate to post this, but I will anyway) TJ said a while ago that the large majority of PLAYERS are not on forum - so they aren't in a position to give an opinion anyway.

Edited February 9, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[RainDear]

With all this discussion of guidelines, I have a question.

 

It occurs to me that with all the various talk of finding things: items, treasures, whatever in the cave, that for some actions we would like that would conceivably take strong magic, that finding spell scrolls in the cave for some of these actions might be a possibility. I see this as kind of like the Leetle Tree, the text would be something like "you see a spell scroll among the eggs."

 

So, if I were to suggest that finding a spell scroll for unfreezing would be a good option for the unfreezing of dragons, apparently that would by these "guidelines" be unacceptable as a post in the unfreezing thread, so should it have its own thread?

[Renorei]

So, if I were to suggest that finding a spell scroll for unfreezing would be a good option for the unfreezing of dragons, apparently that would by these "guidelines" be unacceptable as a post in the unfreezing thread, so should it have its own thread?

The Unfreezing thread is still in a very unrefined stage. It's still exploring the myriad options and possibilities for how unfreezing could/should occur, and it seems that it's still inviting new ideas. In my opinion, for a thread like that, there wouldn't be anything wrong with posting this idea.

 

What I'm talking about with encouraging users not to go off on a tangent with a different idea is in a situation where the OP of the thread already has a specific, refined idea. In a case like that, I think if a new idea emerges in the thread that has some key difference from the OP idea it should quickly be made into its own thread. It's really hard to pin down exactly when this needs to happen, and exactly how "different" an idea needs to be to deserve its own thread. Which is why this would be a guideline because it's relatively subjective, but mods could keep a watch on threads and step in and suggest that it's time for a new thread, and users themselves could speak up when they think it's time too. But I really think this needs to happen because in my opinion when discussion in an S&R starts going off on a tangent about an idea that's different enough from the OP's, it's basically (unintentional) thread hijacking.

 

It's worth noting, however, that what you are talking about is actually something broader than unfreezing, because presumably you could find these spell scrolls and some of them would do actions besides unfreeze. So I honestly think the idea merits its own thread and you should include your other ideas about what these spell scrolls could do. The concept as a whole is interesting although not everyone is going to like every suggested spell scroll action.

[diaveborn]

Q: Why was my post deleted?

A: Posts that break DragCave Forum Rules or the DragCave Terms of Service may be deleted at any time without warning or explanation. If your post did not violate any rules, terms, or guidelines laid out in section sticky's or if you are sure your post was innocuous, please contact TJ09 with the post content summary, thread you posted in, and the time or around the time you posted so he can look into it. This is a probable forum bug.

 

Should something be added about thread clearing? Since that's not an uncommon thing, it might make sense to not send people to contact TJ about it, saving contact for things that are more likely to be bugs.

 

edit: By "thread clearing" I meant threads getting most/all of the replies removed so that they can then be smaller.

Edited February 17, 2014 by diaveborn

[Mistress of Whispers]

I was reading a thread titled 'Email users when scrolls are burnt', when I flipped to the next page and got this:

 

Board Message

 

Sorry, an error occurred. If you are unsure on how to use a feature, or don't know why you got this error message, try looking through the help files for more information.

 

The error returned was:

 

You do not have permission to view this topic

 

Admittedly I had only read 2 out of 3 pages, but the topic seemed to be polite and non-inflammatory. So I'm wonder why the heck it was deleted / moved to a mod-only section.

 

My suggestion, prompted by this disappearing thread and others like it, is simple:

 

Please do lock threads when they are resolved, denied or getting out of hand, but be a little less eager with the 'delete / mods-only' button.

[Renorei]

I'd love to see a sticky in Suggestions and Requests detailing the various suggestions that TJ likes and is planning to implement someday. It should be made clear in the OP of that thread that none of the suggestions are on any particular time-table and the changes will come when they come.

 

I think a big list in one place of all of the suggestions TJ wants to implement would be useful because it would let people know not to suggest certain things because they're already going to be implemented eventually. Also, it might cut down on a few threads that would be moot because some other idea is already in the works that accomplishes the same purpose.

 

Plus, it would just be handy and fun, to be able to look in one place and see a grand list of all the changes that might come to DC in the future.

[diaveborn]

but be a little less eager with the 'delete

I would also request this, for not only threads but the individual posts that have gone away when those posts are not off topic, rude, etc. Because that has happened also.

 

I guess I don't know for sure that the "email users when scrolls are burnt" topic isn't a forum bug, but I'm never going to be able to forget stuff that I know was not a bug, and having had that problem (not with the mods) about this in the past as well as a specific other recent problem, I am reacting to the disappearance of the thread with less patience than I would otherwise.

 

I'm absolutely tired of caring about this site and forum and the community enough to have taken the time and effort to post things for the goal of being helpful that then either go away themselves or as part of threads that are going away, for the only apparent reason that there is a lack of desire to engage with what people are saying.

[TJ09]

My suggestion, prompted by this disappearing thread and others like it, is simple:

 

Please do lock threads when they are resolved, denied or getting out of hand, but be a little less eager with the 'delete / mods-only' button.

I'm not going on why the thread was removed, but I really don't think threads are removed-without-warning often enough for this to even warrant much of a serious reaction. I went through twenty pages of trashed topics and found no other cases of suggestions being removed, yet your post implies that it is being done too "eagarly."

 

I think the numbers and empirically-observed frequency imply that there is already a lot of thought put in before a topic is removed, and I would like to see why you disagree. Is one time too many? If so, that's not a request that can be honored, because there are going to be cases where the entire thread needs to be removed from view, so "never" as a definition of "less eager" isn't feasible.

 

Note that none of this was written with post removal in mind. That is a different subject altogether.

Edited February 17, 2014 by TJ09

[TJ09]

I would also request this, for not only threads but the individual posts that have gone away when those posts are not off topic, rude, etc. Because that has happened also.

That should not happen without explanation, which is roughly equivalent to closing a thread anyways.

 

e.g. when I removed an entire discussion from the raffle thread, I explained why the original discussion was the wrong direction to go in, and gave the thread a chance to turn around. Only when that failed to happen were posts removed.

[TJ09]

I'd love to see a sticky in Suggestions and Requests detailing the various suggestions that TJ likes and is planning to implement someday. It should be made clear in the OP of that thread that none of the suggestions are on any particular time-table and the changes will come when they come.

 

I think a big list in one place of all of the suggestions TJ wants to implement would be useful because it would let people know not to suggest certain things because they're already going to be implemented eventually. Also, it might cut down on a few threads that would be moot because some other idea is already in the works that accomplishes the same purpose.

 

Plus, it would just be handy and fun, to be able to look in one place and see a grand list of all the changes that might come to DC in the future.

Does this happen all that often? I don't really recall closing a ton of threads with "this is coming soon" (or equivalent).

[diaveborn]

That should not happen without explanation

I guess it's good to know that it shouldn't. But it has before.

[TJ09]

As some feedback myself, the above discussions are a great example of why I usually push for things to be in different threads. The past hour has seen three (now four, thanks to this post) relatively different subjects all brought up in this one thread. If each of them continues, that's going to be a lot of mixing. If they don't continue, it will likely be because one of the topics took over the thread and distracted from the others. I don't think either situation is ideal.

[diaveborn]

I only brought up what I did because I thought at the time it was an extension of what was previously brought up.

 

edit: I realize you were probably just using the situation as somewhat of an example, but for me it was an important distinction to make as without the thread going away tonight and Mistress of Whispers posting about it, I would have just continued to sit on my frustration without saying what I said.

Edited February 17, 2014 by diaveborn

[Mistress of Whispers]

I really don't think threads are removed-without-warning often enough for this to even warrant much of a serious reaction. I went through twenty pages of trashed topics and found no other cases of suggestions being removed, yet your post implies that it is being done too "eagerly."

Actually, the DC forum (I wasn't talking about just the suggestions subforum) does have more suddenly disappearing threads that any other forum I have ever frequented. So either this forum is much more inflammatory, or the admin/mods here are a bit quicker to hit the delete/move button.

 

I can see why some topics have to go. For example if someone is posting how-to exploit a glitch, or linking a catching script. Naturally you'd want to stop other forumites from even reading those. But I can't imagine (many) people posting that, so for the most part I don't understand why unpopular topics can't simply be left standing after locking.

 

 

As some feedback myself, the above discussions are a great example of why I usually push for things to be in different threads. The past hour has seen three (now four, thanks to this post) relatively different subjects all brought up in this one thread.

That's likely because people assume that the Suggestions forum is mostly for game suggestions and that forum feedback should go in the Forum Feedback thread. (The OP of this topic seems to be of the same mind: "we're looking for criticism on how the forum is run, and how the community is perceived, etc.") So of course you then get a hotchpotch of feedback.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Mistress of Whispers

[RainDear]

Does this happen all that often? I don't really recall closing a ton of threads with "this is coming soon" (or equivalent).

I don't think she said that threads were closed, but there is often discussion of proposals for "Healing" BSAs and some of us remember you once said that Whites would get that, and there are some other things you have said we would get like changing our own names. If there were a stickied thread that held things like this that you are going to add or are in favor of, then new threads wouldn't be made for the same subjects over and over. We wouldn't keep trying to find a dragon that would be able to "Heal" or some other ability to give to Whites, for example.

[Rally Vincent]

I'm not going on why the thread was removed, but I really don't think threads are removed-without-warning often enough for this to even warrant much of a serious reaction. I went through twenty pages of trashed topics and found no other cases of suggestions being removed, yet your post implies that it is being done too "eagarly."

IIRC, the "flower doesn't exist?"-Thread in help was deleted as well. Even if not in suggestions, thread deletion happens quite more often in DCF than in any other forum I know.

[TJ09]

As some feedback myself, the above discussions are a great example of why I usually push for things to be in different threads. The past hour has seen three (now four, thanks to this post) relatively different subjects all brought up in this one thread.

That's likely because people assume that the Suggestions forum is mostly for game suggestions and that forum feedback should go in the Forum Feedback thread. (The OP of this topic seems to be of the same mind: "we're looking for criticism on how the forum is run, and how the community is perceived, etc.") So of course you then get a hotchpotch of feedback.

I wasn't talking about just this thread.

 

It happens all over the forums--the raffle thread, which was this giant smorgasbord of different raffle-related suggestions, is another example. In that thread, people seemed reluctant to have it split off into individual suggestions.