Twilight

[terioncalling]

By 12yrs you should be able to use punctuation accurately, an extremely good grasp of grammar, and be able to accurately spell common words.

Should being the operative word. Most of the ones I've known that write fanfic, however, don't.

 

Slightly back on topic: that link, so far, is brilliant. I haven't seen all the vid yet (stupid slow loading internet) but the text makes good points. , I'll heartily agree that if some of those things had been in the series I'd actually read it - well, so long as the cardboard cutout characters became real characters along the way.

Edited July 10, 2010 by terioncalling

[Kestra15]

Spoony takes on Eclipse.

 

 

YAY!

While I didn't watch thr vid I did read the blurb, and agree with everything.

[DragonNighthowler]

I saw the whole vid, along with my bf, and we were laughing our hearts out.

 

I believe Twilight is, along with the Dark Elf whole saga, the best example of how to destroy completely an otherwise charismatic character.

 

Jacob was the only reason I was reading the books. I love werewolves, and I found Jacob to be, while not the best, a rather complex, interesting character.

Then that "public woman", converted him into a depressive, rage controlled, emo, rapist and pedophile.

 

The same with Dritzz. He was turned from an interesting, complex character, who had to make his own choices, following his beliefs against what the society portrayed, and submerged himself into a world that would be equally cruel to him. He was turned into Drizzt Stu, something like the Drow version of Kenshin.

[RheaZen]

Who's Kenshin?

[DragonNighthowler]

Who's Kenshin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurouni_Kenshin

 

This guy. He was an assassin, until he decided he would not kill again, and became a shameful, pitiful character.

[Stromboli]

I have a question.

We've had endless circular conversations on Gaia's TSF about imprinting. Mostly about the relationship between Jacob and Renesmee. There's just a whole passel of wrongness in that situation, but we get a surprising number of people defending it.

 

How do the good denizens of Dragon Cave feel about the whole imprinting impulse?

[terioncalling]

I have a question.

We've had endless circular conversations on Gaia's TSF about imprinting. Mostly about the relationship between Jacob and Renesmee. There's just a whole passel of wrongness in that situation, but we get a surprising number of people defending it.

 

How do the good denizens of Dragon Cave feel about the whole imprinting impulse?

To me its always felt a bit too much like trying to pull off of Anne McCaffrey's dragons. The bond between dragon and rider is one of the things I've always loved about that series but the thing is that it comes from both sides.

 

From what I can tell of imprinting since I've never forced myself to read the books is that it is decidedly one-sided. The shifter is the only one that feels any real connection so far as I can tell, thus making it not the bond of McCaffrey's books, and it just seems unfair to them to have this connection.

 

What happens to that connection if the person imprinted upon doesn't want the shifter around? Does it strain, stretching its limits, and create a hole that can never be filled?

 

And what weight is laid upon the imprintee's shoulders at knowing this other person is forever bound to them? Will they feel required to be close to them and thus nurse a hatred for the shifter at forcing this upon them even if it wasn't their choice? Or will they one day feel pushed to be closer to this person that loves them unconditionally (I believe that was one descriptor of imprinting), forcing themselves to return the love in a way more than friendship?

 

All-over imprinting is just too much forcing a relationship to me and seems to take so much control from the imprinter as well as the imprintee. At least with Impression, the rider knows what they're getting into and they grow up with their dragon, their minds influencing each other. Also imprinting can happen at any time - example being Jacob and the demon child - which can just make things awkward while Impression has a very set time with the would-be riders at 9 to 13 (I believe) and the dragons at hatching.

 

On the whole Jacob being in love with Bella because he knew deep down that she would give birth to Renesmee is just another example of forcing a relationship. If he weren't going to imprint on her, would he have been trying so hard with Bella? Plus it reeks a bit too much of fate/destiny being set in stone to me and with the imprinter never being able to get rid of that unconditional love for the imprintee, it's a fate/destiny that can never be fully thrown off. I much prefer a fate that can be bypassed or merely changed around if that if what the character wishes. And there is nothing Jacob can do to fight this, which makes me pity him and the other shifters.

[Stromboli]

From what I can tell of imprinting since I've never forced myself to read the books is that it is decidedly one-sided. The shifter is the only one that feels any real connection so far as I can tell...

It is. The imprinting wolf is the only one who has this supernatural connection. He is supposed to "become whatever she wants him to be."

This is how they get around the whole mess with the wolves imprinting on small

children. Until she wants him as a romantic partner, he acts like a friend, or a big brother. Big Brother is watching you?

 

What happens to that connection if the person imprinted upon doesn't want the shifter around? Does it strain, stretching its limits, and create a hole that can never be filled?

Funny story about that.

I don't know if you would know about the relationship between the Alpha wolf Sam and the girl he imprinted on, Emily. The story there was that Sam had been dating Leah for years. Leah and Emily were cousins, but acted more like sisters.

When Sam imprints on Emily, he promptly dumps Leah. Pack law doesn't allow him to tell her why he's dumped her for her cousin out of the blue, so she assumes he's just an ass.

Here's where the story gets good. This is the story Meyer said she planned to write for them, but didn't put in the book. It didn't come out until an interview with her for the Twimoms' forum.

Emily naturally takes Leah's side. When Sam comes around professing his undying love for her, Emily tells him that she will never love him. She will never even like him, or respect him as a person for what he did to Leah.

This is what made Sam lose control and slash Emily's face.

 

And he's generally regarded as the most level-headed of the pack. Makes you wonder how any of the others would take rejection.

 

And what weight is laid upon the imprintee's shoulders at knowing this other person is forever bound to them? Will they feel required to be close to them and thus nurse a hatred for the shifter at forcing this upon them even if it wasn't their choice? Or will they one day feel pushed to be closer to this person that loves them unconditionally (I believe that was one descriptor of imprinting), forcing themselves to return the love in a way more than friendship?

That's the general feeling that the books give.

When Jacob talks about Quil's imprinting on two-year-old Claire, he says something along the lines of "Well, why wouldn't she pick him? He'll be perfect for her."

This brings me to another interesting bit about imprinting, which I'll get to in a sec.

 

On the whole Jacob being in love with Bella because he knew deep down that she would give birth to Renesmee is just another example of forcing a relationship.

Here's where Meyer was way to ambiguous with her writing.

 

Edited to continue:

I still can't tell whether she's talking about the protocell that eventually became the egg that became Renesmee, or if she's referring to only after Bella was pregnant.

In any case, this pre-imprint attraction taints Jacob's whole character. He was the symbol of choice and free will for Bella. The idea that he only liked her because she was the future mother of his "soul mate" would mean that he was not with her because he wanted to be at all.

 

And there's two issues with this whole 'soul mate' thing.

If he was attracted to Bella because she was pregnant with Renesmee, do you honestly expect anyone to believe that he could tell that the partially developed blob of stem cells in Bella's womb would be his "soul mate?"

A person's personality changes so much over the course of their life, but he can tell that they will be perfect for each other when she's a FETUS?

 

Second issue is the way the wolves react to the imprinting.

They experience huge personality shifts. Particularly Paul. He was the most on-edge one of them. He had the most trouble controlling his emotions. Heck, he nearly beat Jacob up over a hot dog. And then two months later, he doesn't bat an eye when Jacob breaks his nose.

If they were really 'made for each other,' why does the wolf change so entirely?

Edited July 11, 2010 by Stromboli

[terioncalling]

It is. The imprinting wolf is the only one who has this supernatural connection. He is supposed to "become whatever she wants him to be."

This is how they get around the whole mess with the wolves imprinting on small

children. Until she wants him as a romantic partner, he acts like a friend, or a big brother. Big Brother is watching you?

 

I know. What he wants to be is what bothers me. It all seems to depend on what the girl wants with imprinting.

 

Funny story about that.

I don't know if you would know about the relationship between the Alpha wolf Sam and the girl he imprinted on, Emily. The story there was that Sam had been dating Leah for years. Leah and Emily were cousins, but acted more like sisters.

When Sam imprints on Emily, he promptly dumps Leah. Pack law doesn't allow him to tell her why he's dumped her for her cousin out of the blue, so she assumes he's just an ass.

Here's where the story gets good. This is the story Meyer said she planned to write for them, but didn't put in the book. It didn't come out until an interview with her for the Twimoms' forum.

Emily naturally takes Leah's side. When Sam comes around professing his undying love for her, Emily tells him that she will never love him. She will never even like him, or respect him as a person for what he did to Leah.

This is what made Sam lose control and slash Emily's face.

 

And he's generally regarded as the most level-headed of the pack. Makes you wonder how any of the others would take rejection.

 

I have heard of them. While I do applaud the fact that the negative connotations of imprinting came up (even if never actually written) the situation itself still bothers me. As I said, its like its fate for Sam to end up with Emily now but she doesn't want him for anything because of what he did to Leah. And now he cannot do anything but pine away for her because the imprint won't allow him to do anything else. He can't even go back to the girl he was with before.

 

And, yeah, that reaction is what makes the rejection of the imprinting even more creepy and frightening.

[Dr. Paine]

 

I have heard of them. While I do applaud the fact that the negative connotations of imprinting came up (even if never actually written) the situation itself still bothers me. As I said, its like its fate for Sam to end up with Emily now but she doesn't want him for anything because of what he did to Leah. And now he cannot do anything but pine away for her because the imprint won't allow him to do anything else. He can't even go back to the girl he was with before.

 

Actually, no.

 

Emily and Sam wind up getting married.

 

She asked Leah to be a bridesmaid. Meyer also said that Emily 'never really wanted to reject Sam, she was just playing hard to get.'

 

Very good discussion here.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Dr. Paine

[terioncalling]

Actually, no.

 

Emily and Sam wind up getting married.

 

She asked Leah to be a bridesmaid. Meyer also said that Emily 'never really wanted to reject Sam, she was just playing hard to get.'

 

Very good discussion here.

 

*reads page 1 of topic*

 

It's kind of amazing how something that could be a very dark and deep story ends up being so terrible.

 

Also, I'm guessing Stephenie Meyer is an insert for a certain word on that forum. 'Cause the placement of some of them just doesn't make any sense.

Edited July 11, 2010 by terioncalling

[Dr. Paine]

 

*reads page 1 of topic*

 

It's kind of amazing how something that could be a very dark and deep story ends up being so terrible.

Oh yeah.

 

Sad thing about it? I've got a pair of characters in a similar situation (the girl is a dragon/human hybrid and slashes her boyfriend-later-husband across the face). The difference?

 

A: There was no 'I'm sorry' that fixed everything. They went through YEARS of learning how to re-trust one another, and she had to prove her loyalty and control several times.

B: It's never presented as anything 'good', or helpful to the relationship.

C: She actually had no control- the heat of a massive battle got to her and many hybrids, friendly attacks were not uncommon then. She's lucky she didn't get labeled 'unstable' and hunted down.

[terioncalling]

Oh yeah.

 

Sad thing about it? I've got a pair of characters in a similar situation (the girl is a dragon/human hybrid and slashes her boyfriend-later-husband across the face). The difference?

 

A: There was no 'I'm sorry' that fixed everything. They went through YEARS of learning how to re-trust one another, and she had to prove her loyalty and control several times.

B: It's never presented as anything 'good', or helpful to the relationship.

C: She actually had no control- the heat of a massive battle got to her and many hybrids, friendly attacks were not uncommon then. She's lucky she didn't get labeled 'unstable' and hunted down.

Which is exactly how it should be. That also certainly sounds like an interesting story, Paine.

[DragonNighthowler]

Sure, it does. A very nice way to focus the whole things .

 

Like I told Paine through DA, I'm planning on writing a revised edition of Twilight, how it would have been made into a good story.

 

The first thing I'm adding is.... TADA!!!!

A PLOT!

[Merthoth]

I HATE Twilight, I can't see what the hype's about.

The only reason i'm seeing new moon is for the werewolves

[Dr. Paine]

Sure, it does. A very nice way to focus the whole things .

 

Like I told Paine through DA, I'm planning on writing a revised edition of Twilight, how it would have been made into a good story.

 

The first thing I'm adding is.... TADA!!!!

A PLOT!

A plot?

 

-gasps-

 

WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?!

[Kestra15]

I have a question.

We've had endless circular conversations on Gaia's TSF about imprinting. Mostly about the relationship between Jacob and Renesmee. There's just a whole passel of wrongness in that situation, but we get a surprising number of people defending it.

 

How do the good denizens of Dragon Cave feel about the whole imprinting impulse?

Wrong on many levels, and simply a convenient way to circumvent plot and actually having to write something with more than half a dimension.

[Stromboli]

Wrong on many levels, and simply a convenient way to circumvent plot and actually having to write something with more than half a dimension.

God yes.

Jacob's imprinting was two deus ex machinas rolled into one.

It kept Jacob himself from murdering the kid, and made it so the pack couldn't kill her either.

[riboflavintx]

The Twilight Series always makes me feel like Meyers read Anita Blake: Vampire Hunter and around book 8 stopped and said "right o, the sex is getting way too freaky and what the hell happened to Edward the professional killer?" Then wrote the fake mashed potato version of some *in' homemade potatoes.

[terioncalling]

I still can't tell whether she's talking about the protocell that eventually became the egg that became Renesmee, or if she's referring to only after Bella was pregnant.

In any case, this pre-imprint attraction taints Jacob's whole character. He was the symbol of choice and free will for Bella. The idea that he only liked her because she was the future mother of his "soul mate" would mean that he was not with her because he wanted to be at all.

 

Protocell. That's been my belief on the thing.

 

And I can't see him as a symbol of choice. From what I know, it seems from the get-go that Bella was dead-set on being vamped without considering any other avenues.

 

And there's two issues with this whole 'soul mate' thing.

If he was attracted to Bella because she was pregnant with Renesmee, do you honestly expect anyone to believe that he could tell that the partially developed blob of stem cells in Bella's womb would be his "soul mate?"

A person's personality changes so much over the course of their life, but he can tell that they will be perfect for each other when she's a FETUS?

 

He himself couldn't as none of the shifters can tell when they're going to imprint, I believe. I was under the impression that he knew unconsciously that she would be his "soul mate" but was never fully aware of it.

 

Given that Edward and Bella have essentially nothing in common, yes, I can see it being written that he can tell they are perfect for each other when she's a fetus.

 

Second issue is the way the wolves react to the imprinting.

They experience huge personality shifts. Particularly Paul. He was the most on-edge one of them. He had the most trouble controlling his emotions. Heck, he nearly beat Jacob up over a hot dog. And then two months later, he doesn't bat an eye when Jacob breaks his nose.

If they were really 'made for each other,' why does the wolf change so entirely? 

 

Assuming the calm is after the imprinting is done, I'll summarize what someone said on the post Paine linked. That makes it seem like the shifter needs the imprint as a leash, that they need the control of an outside influence at points.

[Stromboli]

Assuming the calm is after the imprinting is done, I'll summarize what someone said on the post Paine linked. That makes it seem like the shifter needs the imprint as a leash, that they need the control of an outside influence at points.

But then, what about Sam and Emily?

Even after imprinting, he was still losing control.

[terioncalling]

But then, what about Sam and Emily?

Even after imprinting, he was still losing control.

That was also something that troubled them in that post.

 

Perhaps her initial pushing him away broke something? If the imprintee pushes them away entirely at first then changes their mind, perhaps it changes some of that control.

[DragonNighthowler]

Aren't you guys thinking too much over something, that really makes no sense?

 

I mean, Meyer probably didn't even think a fifth of that!

[Dr. Paine]

Aren't you guys thinking too much over something, that really makes no sense?

 

I mean, Meyer probably didn't even think a fifth of that!

Sad, ain't it?

 

A bunch of teens on a forum for a site where you raise dragon drawings are putting more thought into the series than someone with an English degree.

 

 

...

 

I'm gonna go cry now.

[War Pig Killer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHkPJ1ACLrg

 

Just watch it.