Twilight

[Branndi]

Panlah did you look at that picture in one of my earlier posts? I saw it and thought of you Lol

 

Wow, three lovers of Breaking Dawn...that's for this thread Lol Well I am happy that you guys were able to enjoy the book. I am jealous and wish I could see what there was to love about it like you guys have done

Edited August 16, 2008 by Branndi

[Panlah]

Yeah, I saw it. Hilarious stuff.

[Natsume Shin]

It just fit, it tugged at hear strings, there was a magic baby and Bella is a beast unlike anything anyone is ready for. It was just fricken sweet. Oh, and Jacob's point of view. "The psycho in question". XDDDD

[Branndi]

I didn't think Bella was a beast at all. If anything, Bella went from being a whiny human to a whiny vampire. If she were a beast then she would have been going through the normal stages that all newborns went through, instead she just jumped into it like it was an everyday thing.

 

All Bella did through out the whole book was go into completely drama queen mode. I guess you could call her a Drama Beast Lol I mean, her only useful thing in the whole book was when she protected the others from the Volturi, which even that angered me because she just got ahold of her ability like she had known how to do it all along and never really worked for it.

[AngelsxRequiem]

Panlah did you look at that picture in one of my earlier posts? I saw it and thought of you Lol

 

Wow, three lovers of Breaking Dawn...that's for this thread Lol Well I am happy that you guys were able to enjoy the book. I am jealous and wish I could see what there was to love about it like you guys have done

I told you, I really enjoyed the book too. I disagree with some of the problems you had with it. I enjoyed getting Jacob's point of view. I do admit it lacked in plot, but that's because the book was more about answering some long asked questions. Whether I liked the answer I got or not, I'm glad she took the time to do so. I enjoyed the fact that things didn't happen the way I thought they were going to. And the end left me wanting more, which is what a good book should do.

 

Do I wish she'd done some things differently? Sure. But I can say that for plenty of writers I've read, yet I still enjoy their works. Does Bella still annoy me? Sure! I thought it amusing when bad things happened to her >.> is she going to whine about it again? HA the kid broke her rib.

[Natsume Shin]

I didn't think Bella was a beast at all. If anything, Bella went from being a whiny human to a whiny vampire. If she were a beast then she would have been going through the normal stages that all newborns went through, instead she just jumped into it like it was an everyday thing.

 

All Bella did through out the whole book was go into completely drama queen mode. I guess you could call her a Drama Beast Lol I mean, her only useful thing in the whole book was when she protected the others from the Volturi, which even that angered me because she just got ahold of her ability like she had known how to do it all along and never really worked for it.

It was like the book said, it was all about mental prep and force of will. She'd been prepping for it for long enough that it was bound to be easier for her... And for the shield, she only got a good hold on it because she got so pissed, it fueled the shield or something... Complaining about that is like complaining about Edward being able to use his power right out of the hanger.

 

I'll admit as well some of it could have been different, but for the most part, it was a well written piece of literature, and I liked it.

[Branndi]

I didn't think Bella was a beast at all. If anything, Bella went from being a whiny human to a whiny vampire. If she were a beast then she would have been going through the normal stages that all newborns went through, instead she just jumped into it like it was an everyday thing.

 

All Bella did through out the whole book was go into completely drama queen mode. I guess you could call her a Drama Beast Lol I mean, her only useful thing in the whole book was when she protected the others from the Volturi, which even that angered me because she just got ahold of her ability like she had known how to do it all along and never really worked for it.

It was like the book said, it was all about mental prep and force of will. She'd been prepping for it for long enough that it was bound to be easier for her... And for the shield, she only got a good hold on it because she got so pissed, it fueled the shield or something... Complaining about that is like complaining about Edward being able to use his power right out of the hanger.

 

I'll admit as well some of it could have been different, but for the most part, it was a well written piece of literature, and I liked it.

That still doesn't explain why Bella didn't have any sort of problems what so ever when she became a vampire. None. It was like she just woke up one morning, became a vampire, and was all over it like it was just an everyday thing for her. I get that she knew what she was getting to, but that doesn't explain why she never experienced any of those things.

 

There is a difference between Edward's mind reading and Bella's shield in the sense that Edward has had a hundred years to get ahold of his ability and master it. Bella had like two weeks and managed to get it all down in one night. I still think that it would have been a little more believable (as much as something can be with a story of vampires Lol) if she had actually had to work for it.

 

She honestly didn't work for anything she got in Breaking Dawn and it was just handed to her on a platter. It's like Panlah said, she didn't sacrifice anything and was pretty much allowed to want for nothing. Everything came so easily to her and I really, really hated that. I wanted Bella to actually earn something she was given and she didn't get any of that. Personally, I don't think she even deserved Nessie because half the time she was too worried about wanting to jump Edward than take care of her own child or she was too busy trying to make herself the center of Nessie's problems.

 

And AngelsxRequiem, sorry that I forgot you had said you liked the book. I don't really remember who said they liked it, just that there were a few people. I just can't keep up sometimes Lol

 

To me, she just left more questions than answers by the end of the book. Maybe not really about Bella and Edward, but about everyone else. What happened to Nessie and Jacob? What about Leah and Seth? What did the Volturi do? What about the other half breed and his aunt? Charlie? Renee?

 

Just little things like that that sort of got my nerves by the end of the book and so forth. And I understand that not all of those questions can be answered in one book, but it would be nice to have some idea of where it went from there.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Branndi

[AngelsxRequiem]

I didn't think Bella was a beast at all. If anything, Bella went from being a whiny human to a whiny vampire. If she were a beast then she would have been going through the normal stages that all newborns went through, instead she just jumped into it like it was an everyday thing.

 

All Bella did through out the whole book was go into completely drama queen mode. I guess you could call her a Drama Beast Lol I mean, her only useful thing in the whole book was when she protected the others from the Volturi, which even that angered me because she just got ahold of her ability like she had known how to do it all along and never really worked for it.

It was like the book said, it was all about mental prep and force of will. She'd been prepping for it for long enough that it was bound to be easier for her... And for the shield, she only got a good hold on it because she got so pissed, it fueled the shield or something... Complaining about that is like complaining about Edward being able to use his power right out of the hanger.

 

I'll admit as well some of it could have been different, but for the most part, it was a well written piece of literature, and I liked it.

That still doesn't explain why Bella didn't have any sort of problems what so ever when she became a vampire. None. It was like she just woke up one morning, became a vampire, and was all over it like it was just an everyday thing for her. I get that she knew what she was getting to, but that doesn't explain why she never experienced any of those things.

 

There is a difference between Edward's mind reading and Bella's shield in the sense that Edward has had a hundred years to get ahold of his ability and master it. Bella had like two weeks and managed to get it all down in one night. I still think that it would have been a little more believable (as much as something can be with a story of vampires Lol) if she had actually had to work for her.

 

She honestly didn't work for anything she got in Breaking Dawn and it was just handed to her on a platter. It's like Panlah said, she didn't sacrifice anything and was pretty much allowed to want for nothing. Everything came so easily to her and I really, really hated that. I wanted Bella to actually earn something she was given and she didn't get any of that. Personally, I don't think she even deserved Nessie because half the time she was too worried about wanting to jump Edward than take care of her own child or she was too busy trying to make herself the center of Nessie's problems.

While I do agree the book had too much sex, especially for an adolescent book.. I disagree with some of your other points.

 

Bella did not have immediate and perfect control over her newbie vampire side. She broke what's his name (My friend has borrowed my book so I can't look it up) collar bone trying to kill Jacob for calling her kid Ness. She also had several fits over the thought of blood.

 

There are -several- explanations for why it might have been easier for her. One was mental prep, that most of the others didn't have. Two is her power as a vampire, if she is able to resist the mental powers of the other vampires why not her own vampire self? Three! Let's not forget the fact that she gave birth to a hybrid baby. She spent several weeks with a half vampire inside her, that craved blood so that she drank it.. and enjoyed it.. for quite a while before turning. It could be that the child had some effect on her turning.

 

And while she didn't end having to sacrifice anything she wasn't ready to give up.. (although die hard fans would argue she changed her mind and didn't want to give up humanity just yet.. I disagree because she'd already asked for it) in her mind she'd already given up Ness when the fight took place. In fact she'd mentally given up everything, and had it all given back to her. She was prepared to give up her parents, and wasn't forced to. She was prepared to die, and managed to live. But before it all happened, in her mind she'd already given it up. Sometimes that's even harder then actually going through it.

 

Also, I thought she brought as much closure as she could without extending the series by a lot. If she'd allowed the fight with the Volturi it'd have left a lot more questions then allowing things to continue. I agree she should have done an epilogue several years later.. to give us a complete sense of "this is how life continued afterwords.." that would have been great.

[Panlah]

She was prepared to give up her parents, and wasn't forced to.

That is not a sacrifice she has any right to make. Give up her parents? For what? Is she THAT SHALLOW AND THOUGHTLESS of her parents?

 

She was prepared, but didn't have to. All part of Smeyer's super special awesome happy ending. That still left a buttload of questions. I weep for my wellbeing when I have to read this book for my Literature Critique.

[AngelsxRequiem]

While I agree the fact that she was willing to give them both up for eternity was shallow of her.. not only is it a sacrifice that she has the right to make, but it's one a lot of people make all the time. When you decide to get married, and move away to another state and only visit your family on special holidays every other year, alternating with your husband so he can see his family too.. guess what? You're just as shallow and inconsiderate.

 

I'm honestly glad she didn't go through the wild newbie vampire stage.. who wanted to hear her deal with it afterwords? She'd hate herself FOREVER.. LITERALLY..

 

Also, you just can't make everyone happy. Any character she'd have killed off would have left just as many people ranting and raving. It was her decision to keep all of her characters alive.

 

But I totally get and respect your decision to dislike the book. For some, it just isn't to their tastes. That's cool, it doesn't mean that everyone who does like it is stupid, or that the writer is completely incompetent. I admit.. fanboys/girls are ridiculous, but that's true of anything.

[Panlah]

While I agree the fact that she was willing to give them both up for eternity was shallow of her.. not only is it a sacrifice that she has the right to make, but it's one a lot of people make all the time. When you decide to get married, and move away to another state and only visit your family on special holidays every other year, alternating with your husband so he can see his family too.. guess what? You're just as shallow and inconsiderate.

 

I'm honestly glad she didn't go through the wild newbie vampire stage.. who wanted to hear her deal with it afterwords? She'd hate herself FOREVER.. LITERALLY..

 

Also, you just can't make everyone happy. Any character she'd have killed off would have left just as many people ranting and raving. It was her decision to keep all of her characters alive.

 

But I totally get and respect your decision to dislike the book. For some, it just isn't to their tastes. That's cool, it doesn't mean that everyone who does like it is stupid, or that the writer is completely incompetent. I admit.. fanboys/girls are ridiculous, but that's true of anything.

I honestly haven't read BD, and I thought she was sacrificing them to the Volturi.

[Branndi]

Fangirls/boys should be put on a boat and placed on their own island Lol

 

I really wish she had gone through the newborn vampire stage just a little more than what she did. Though I do have to agree...I am not sure if I could have handled her whining afterwards Lol

 

But obviously we must all agree to just disagree. I agree my opinion is correct and I disagree you don't think so!

 

No no...I am just kidding But that is true that you can't please everyone all of the time and this is a good example of that. Not as if there are fans of the series who don't dislike one of the other three books either.

[Lore]

I...hate this series. @___@

I have a very long-winded rant as to why, on each and every aspect of the books imaginable, but I'm not getting into that. xDDD Too lazy to type it all out, though to me this is the gist of it:

 

"You're really pretty..."

"And you smell amazing, you know that?"

 

x_x;;; Though curiously I've found that the roleplayer community (specifically people who can be labeled as 'literate' or 'advanced' or whatever), don't like it either. =\ I think it's because we spend so much time putting each other's works under the microscope that we couldn't resist pulling hers apart.

[Panlah]

For your mental prep argument.. do you even understand what that is? It doesn't involve someone saying "Oh, this is how you be a vampire. 'KAY, I'M READY!!"

 

It involves training. How is Bella going to train herself to resist the smell of blood when newborns have the most extreme thirsts, especially as a human that doesn't even feel the need to drink it? I took some arguments from another forum. (I asked for their opinions about it).

 

I hated the whole "mental prep" argument. First of all, Bella wasn't even expecting it; it was an emergency. Second, from what we have read, Bella was never entirely ready for it. She whined about how she wouldn't see her family/friends anymore (but never actually tried to spend time with them) and never was at the point where she could say "Do it now!".

 

Second, being mentally prepared would also mean realizing that your entire world would change. If I was going to change, I wouldn't be able to look at food without thinking 'Hey, I have to give this up.' Bella never takes anything in, never does anything to prove she is going through the stages of mental preparation. She does not think ahead and does not live as if she were to die tomorrow. She feels as though she has plenty of time and the idea has not struck her.

 

PS: Could anyone imagine a life without food? I choose chocolate over Edward.

 

I'm so f---ing sick of the ****ing mental prep argument. Everything we've seen about vampirism relates purely to biology. A change of skin cell properties, increased muscle strength and reaction time, etc. These changes include an extreme physical need to ingest blood. How someone's mental preparation could effect that change is beyond me.

 

You can mentally prepare for anything as much as you want, however, it does not mean that you are going to handle it. Especially if you are going to be giving up your entire human life (and let us keep in mind that she was willing to stay human for just a bit longer because she wanted to keep that, ahem, "human experience").

 

What makes a strong hero (or in this case, heroine) is their ability to overcome trials and obstacles, Bella has not done that.

 

It's like saying if you mentally prepare yourself not to become addicted to drugs you won't become addicted after you start doing drugs. It just doesn't work like that.

 

No, I'm not hiding behind the opinions of others. I'm using people that can generally word things better. These people have also read the book. :/

Edited August 16, 2008 by Panlah

[AngelsxRequiem]

Okay while I don't agree with the mental prep argument, your argument against it isn't much better.

 

One, Bella DID thirst for blood while she was a human thanks to the baby. So that's excluded. Along with the whole cells, muscle thing. Having housed the infant inside her that was made of those cells her body technically WAS prepped for it.

 

Two, part of the "mental prep" is even knowing vampires exist! Many of the others who were turned didn't even know vampires existed before hand. You're dying one minute.. the next you're a creature from myth who you didn't think existed! Duh you're going to lose it. Another part of it was her fierce determination to hold on to herself. The few who did know before they were going to be turned had been told they'd go wild, so they expected themselves to and did. You want to argue they knew they were being turned but not about the wild stage? Fine.. how do you prepare to fight something you don't even know is going to happen? Bella was turned right after "Giving birth" and during the entire scene she's fighting to keep a hold of herself. When we say mental prep.. we mean she knew what was coming and so was prepared to deal with it. Is it not easier to deal with a family members death when they've been sick for a while and you knew it was coming? Of course. It's still hard, but easier then it would have been with a sudden death. Bella knew for a while she was going to become a vampire, even if she didn't know it would happen right that second.

[Panlah]

Oscarwilde responds to your first example.

 

This probably isn't a good example, but as far as the 'baby's vampire cells prepared Bella's body for the change' argument is concerned it'll have to do. Sometimes a mother and her child will end up with different blood types. My mother has type O blood, but I have type A. This caused my skin to turn yellow for a while after birth. However, my mother was not affected in the least. If anything, a mother's body has more effect on the child since it is essentially living off of her, so the idea that the child's 'vampire cells (or whatever)' went off into Bella's body and 'prepared' her to become a 'super awesome vampire' (read as: speshul) is ridiculous.

 

While inside the womb, a baby is contained in the amniotic sac. The umbilical cord delivers nutrients and such to the fetus, allowing it to grow and develop. Any cells that belong to the fetus stay part of the fetus. Even if they did magically pop off they'd stay within the sac and eventually be removed during the birthing process. So the baby's super mary-sue powered cells cannot go into Bella and mess around with her body. I'm guessing that they'd be destroyed by Bella's white blood cells, but I'm not entirely sure. In other words, what happens in the uterus stays in the uterus. Except for waste, that goes out in the usual way.

 

Of course, logic doesn't exist in Meyerworld, so it wouldn't surprise me if the baby suddenly has super mommy preping powers. However, I still call bull sh-t.

 

And Stars of Ice responds to the second.

 

Anyway, comparing a death of a loved one to becoming a vampire is silly. Say a person still have a few months to live. They are dying slowly, and many times relatives have not really accepted it just yet. If that dying person suddenly died in a car crash, does that mean they were ready for it? Just because something is coming does not mean you are mentally prepared for it. Bella was not expecting it and still thought she had time.

 

Even Carlisle wanted to drink human blood and kept himself away from humans so he wouldn't do anything stupid. Bella, while she feels attracted to them sometimes, isn't fazed. Jasper has been a vampire for decades and still is troubled by it.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Panlah

[AngelsxRequiem]

He's right.. it's a horrible example. It effects mothers all the time. I was allergic to the hormones produced by my child. I nearly died several times during my pregnancy, and it's a miracle I didn't have a miscarriage. My child GREATLY effected my body. There's also similar situations where the mother and child have different RH blood types and it causes problems with later pregnancies, which is also a case of the mothers body being effected by the baby inside her.

 

 

Let's take gestational diabetes for an example. I like this example best because it's so similar to the circumstances Bella went through. It only happened later during the pregnancy, it wouldn't have effected her afterwords if she had lived through the pregnancy, but it completely changed her diet during the time of the pregnancy in order to suit the child. Having gestational diabetes does not automatically mean someone has diabetes later.. but if they should develop it then having been through a period where they'd already had to deal with it.. they are better prepared to handle their situation.

 

A few guesses as to how Bella's body changed during the pregnancy of the hybrid child..

 

1. Most people cannot break down blood as a food source.. duh. Therefore her body had to have developed some form of doing so in order to get it to the child.

2. Maybe she developed antibodies against the vampire "disease" her child was carrying, which prevented her from receiving a full on attack when she was injected and instead allowed a slower transitioning process.

 

As for your second quote.. just because not everyone accepts it, doesn't mean no one does. You can't say that she didn't learn to accept she was becoming a vampire because some others might not have done so.

[Panlah]

Lol. I'm a man now, guys.

 

As for blood types, usually it only really has a great effect if the mother's blood is positive and the baby's is negative (or vice versa) and even then the baby must be delivered the old fashioned way, meaning, no super vampire husband biting into your uterus.

 

But back to the theories. Since vampires and humans are not supposed to make babies with each other I believe that Bella actually being able to accommodate her baby's 'unique' diet is a stretch. I don't think nature counted on a vampire sexing it up with its breakfast. Even if her super special Mary-Sue body suddenly found a way to 'digest blood' I don't think this would have a really big effect on her after becoming a vampire since she'd be able to process blood no matter what as a vampire. Our problem lies with the fact that she's 'super resistant' to the allure of human blood and behaves like a century old vampire instead of a newborn.

 

Your other theory does not hold true. A slower changing process? In the book it says that she had one of the fastest transformations Carlisle had ever seen. I believe it was only two days.

 

What it all boils down to is that Bella is just an uber-Sue and that's that. Even Jasper thinks so.

 

Edit: Oh and Nessie has no venom so she can't share her 'vampire disease'

 

^^^^

Yeah. Wouldn't she be less resistent to blood since her baby needed blood and "supposedly" prepared Bella for her transformation. If her baby is prepping her for blood then Bella should crave blood more when she has turned. Not the other way around.

It's like feeding a child candy. The child who has had candy before would be more inclined to want it and eat it because they have had it before than a child that has never had candy because they have no reason to want candy.

Am I making sense?

 

 

[Quintafeira12]

ok... so I read a few paragraphs on twilight (Ilegally, online) the first book and I can resume it to this:

 

Bella: Oh edward is so dreamy!

Bella only saw edward once.

 

It's "Romeu and Juliet" enough to be considered a girl's book, and I don't like those, sorry. Even with the "It has vampires!" catch.

[AngelsxRequiem]

I can't believe I'm debating theories I don't even hold with someone not even on this forum because the person who hates the book can't bother with arguments themselves.. this is sad.

 

Actually it means if she has a second baby with the different rh (aka.. positive and negative, what I already said..) that baby is more likely to die because she's developed anti bodies against it.. not that the baby has to be delivered the old fashioned way. In fact that's what causes the disorder in the first place.. but regardless it was merely an example that an unborn baby can effect the mother.

 

The fact that Bella got pregnant in the first place was a stretch. But I've heard "theories" before about the blood keeping the vampire alive keeping the sperm alive so whatever floats their boat. Please keep in mind that just because she'd woken up from the incident does not mean she was completely transformed at the time. Isn't it more likely that she'd have regained consciousness earlier because she wasn't fully under the effects of the vampire virus?

 

As for the entire Ness not having any venom bit.. just because she can't transfer the virus doesn't mean her mother couldn't have contracted it while the child was in womb. After all, it's so "rare" there isn't any other documented cases of the mother living so how would it be known?

 

Now, about the candy argument.. What? Other then the ridiculous thought of comparing blood and candy.. I believe the child who hasn't had candy would want it more then the child who did. The child who's had it knows what it tastes like, and whether they like it or not, and knows there's a chance of getting some later.. the child who's never had candy is filled with curiosity about something they've never had.

 

In the mean time, you never went against my gestational diabetes argument (which by the way doctors today STILL don't know what causes it..) or the theory of it being part of her shield powers.

[Panlah]

I can't argue because I haven't read the book yet. I've only read the first three. If you think it's so sad, then I'll stop passing the messages. Maybe when I finally read the book for my Lit Critique report, I'll get back to you and stop being "sad." The comment itself was a bit rude.

 

To be completely honest, I'm starting to fall to your side in how it makes sense, but I haven't read, so I can't make any choices in the end.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Panlah

[AngelsxRequiem]

I didn't mean sad for you, I meant sad for me.. cause I keep replying! sorry. I hate losing an argument lol, so I keep replying even if it's to someone I've never met in a forum I've never seen before through a third person who hasn't read the book lol.

[Panlah]

Oh. Sorry. x: Well, I'd tell them to join the forum, but they'd be joining only for that sake. They aren't interested in DragCave. ^^;

 

Yeah, I didn't read the book, but I've read spoilers, so there's a lot I haven't read. However, for my semester english report I'm doing a literature critique instead of a report of praise and reccomendation. I'll be rereading the first three books (gag) and then reading Breaking Dawn. I haven't heard a lot of good things, so I weep for the sake of my humanity afterwards.

 

If you want, I can post my report when I finish it at the end of the semester. Considering it's about the whole series, I'm projecting anywhere from 15 to 25 pages worth of text.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Panlah

[AngelsxRequiem]

More like 30 lol. I enjoy the series but I can see how much you're going to have to "critique" her on. You should start the work now so you can get done in time! I'll be glad to read it though

 

I think the thing you should consider most while writing is one, her target audience, and two, how it reflects very post modern views.

 

The audience for the first book, isn't the same audience for the last book and that's part of what makes such a huge difference in her writing styles. And part of the reason so many people are unhappy with it.

[Panlah]

I'll not only be picking on her style, but the many, many flaws it has. you know, the ideas that the story conveys, the characterization, the plot, contradictions, inconsistancies.. there's a lot of it. You'd be surprised hor far you can analyze the story, and not in a good way. A lot of themes seen in the story include the acts of pedophilia, and encourages a superficial attitude. The relationship between Edward and Bella has also been deemed abusive on many levels and encourages girls to seek out men for their looks and then stick with them when they exhibit signs similar to Edward's actions, I.E. emotional control, abandonment, isolationism.