Influencing eggs under 3 days

[bonvoyage]

With the AP as it is now and all those Halloween dragons misgendering because they are too low time to influence, I just wanted to suggest allowing eggs under 3 days to influenced, and ask if there is any special reason why this is not the case.

[The Dragoness]

I agree here. More Halloweens will end up dying in the AP if they misgender, possibly reducing the amount bred next year. From the generic description:

 

Quote

Unborn dragons are actually physically mature and ready to hatch early on in their development cycle.

 

If this is true, shouldn't it not make much of a difference if a dragon is influenced under 3 days? It doesn't interfere with DC lore in any way either, at least from my perspective.

Edited November 4, 2017 by The Dragoness

[Dragon_Arbock]

Honestly, as nice as that would be, I think a better solution to the AP right now would be to only let Halloween dragons produce 2 eggs. 4, and possibly 3, is too many.

[mouse050909]

I've never thought about that, but influencing eggs under three days wouldn't do much to affect the game. It might help with misgendering a LOT though! 

[olympe]

Despite the fact that game lore kind of goes against this suggestion, I totally support it. 

[HeatherMarie]

1 hour ago, The Dragoness said:

If this is true, shouldn't it not make much of a difference if a dragon is influenced under 3 days? It doesn't interfere with DC lore in any way either, at least from my perspective.

 

Actually I kind of read that part of the description the opposite way... Like, that's the reason you can't influence under 3 days. Over 3 days is "earlier" then they are actually mature and ready to hatch, so they can still be influenced because they aren't fully developed. Under 3 days, they are fully developed so you can't change their gender.

 

I'm neutral with this. I wouldn't mind if the 3-day thing was lifted, but I don't honestly see much of a need for it since the vast majority of eggs aren't going to get below 3 days before hatching. It's only actually a problem during holidays, and I don't really see a reason to change something for always just because of something that happens a few days out of the year. And imo the lore works against the suggestion, since it doesn't make sense to change the gender on a hatchie that's already fully developed. But again, I wouldn't really mind either way.

[The Dragoness]

8 minutes ago, Marie19R said:

 

Actually I kind of read that part of the description the opposite way... Like, that's the reason you can't influence under 3 days. Over 3 days is "earlier" then they are actually mature and ready to hatch, so they can still be influenced because they aren't fully developed. Under 3 days, they are fully developed so you can't change their gender.

Now that I think about it, it does make sense that way too. I would still love to see the restriction lifted though.

[Terces]

Support. It'd be mostly useful for times like now of course, but I've had moments outside of the holidays where I caught a low time AP egg and wished I could influence it.

[Draconiusultamius]

Honestly, I'd go further and extend this to ungendered hatchlings.  If they're fully mature and ready to hatch in the egg, but still influenceable, there'd be no reason why they can't be influenced until after they gender.  It doesn't go against lore, I think.

[HeatherMarie]

I think influencing hatchlings is a completely different can of worms... How would you do that, exactly? When you Influence an egg the Pink does something to the developing fetus to change it's development or somesuch, but a hatchie is already completely alive and gendered. Just because we can't *tell* the gender until stage 2 doesn't mean they are magically genderless until then. Imo it's sorta squicky to think about the idea of forcibly changing a living thing's gender.

[Draconiusultamius]

4 minutes ago, Marie19R said:

I think influencing hatchlings is a completely different can of worms... How would you do that, exactly? When you Influence an egg the Pink does something to the developing fetus to change it's development or somesuch, but a hatchie is already completely alive and gendered. Just because we can't *tell* the gender until stage 2 doesn't mean they are magically genderless until then. Imo it's sorta squicky to think about the idea of forcibly changing a living thing's gender.

I agree with that, but I feel that the gender would be seen to some extent.  Dragon hatchlings aren't insects or very small reptiles.  I'm sure their outer anatomy would look different, regardless of whether the sprites show it or not.

[Confused Cat]

4 hours ago, Marie19R said:

I'm neutral with this. I wouldn't mind if the 3-day thing was lifted, but I don't honestly see much of a need for it since the vast majority of eggs aren't going to get below 3 days before hatching. It's only actually a problem during holidays, and I don't really see a reason to change something for always just because of something that happens a few days out of the year.

 

I think it would be great because it mostly happens to these eggs we can only get during a few days of the year. Most other misgendered dragons can be replaced easily, but it's so sad seeing all the pretty Holidays misgendering, e.g. checkers that are the result of years of planning and breeding.

 

I'm sure we could find a way to make it lore-conforming if that were the only reason against implementing it. There must already be a reason why these eggs can only be bred during a certain time of year, so they are special anyway. Maybe the sun, moons and planets have to be exactly right, and that magical astronomical constellation also makes the dragon fetuses influenceable for a longer time.

[Auriene]

10 hours ago, Dragon_Arbock said:

Honestly, as nice as that would be, I think a better solution to the AP right now would be to only let Halloween dragons produce 2 eggs. 4, and possibly 3, is too many.

 

I agree. When CB Halloweens from previous years were unobtainable, more people were interested in catching bred eggs, especially people with newer accounts. Now, when you can get CBs, you don't have to depend on other users' lineages because you can easily make your own, with dragons named to your liking etc. Last year I hunted for decent 2nd gens., this year I focused on CBs and decided that I'll keep only two or three nicely lineaged dragons from AP. Next year, I'll be mostly focused on breeding my own lineages and again, I'll mostly ignore AP unless I decide to hunt for low time CBs or a few lineaged things. I don't think I'll be the only one.

 

It's a shame that many nicely lineaged dragons from AP are going to misgender because it's already too late to influence the egg. Curious thing is, when you precog a low time egg with Aeon, you still got the "...though its future may still be influenced" text.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Aurigena

[angelicdragonpuppy]

9 hours ago, Marie19R said:

 

Actually I kind of read that part of the description the opposite way... Like, that's the reason you can't influence under 3 days. Over 3 days is "earlier" then they are actually mature and ready to hatch, so they can still be influenced because they aren't fully developed. Under 3 days, they are fully developed so you can't change their gender.

 

I'm neutral with this. I wouldn't mind if the 3-day thing was lifted, but I don't honestly see much of a need for it since the vast majority of eggs aren't going to get below 3 days before hatching. It's only actually a problem during holidays, and I don't really see a reason to change something for always just because of something that happens a few days out of the year. And imo the lore works against the suggestion, since it doesn't make sense to change the gender on a hatchie that's already fully developed. But again, I wouldn't really mind either way.

 

This is basically how I feel. I would benefit from it, but at the same time it feels it contradicts lore and seems strange to justify adding based on just a few days of each year (and I really believe it's almost entirely Halloween that's the issue, since Valentine / Christmas dragons tend to both have set genders and less in the AP in general... which makes it even less urgent).

 

@Draconiusultamius a lot of reptiles simply don't show signs of gender either way until they're more mature, whether they're tiny baby cresties or chubby baby beardeds. They still have a set sex, however. It's true that some vertebrates (mostly fishies) can change sex even after being developed, but it feels like we're pushing believability more and more. And while I generally advocate for fun gameplay above lore, it doesn't feel justified for something that'll likely only see major use for a few days after Halloween each year.

 

And I say this as someone who just wasted five precogs trying to find a messy male CL to freeze (all female!) and accordingly now has a pretty marrow checker sitting on my scroll with no idea whether it'll behave for me.  

[Ruby Eyes]

It's NOT just holidays. I put an offer on a trade for this: https://dragcave.net/view/Inixi and the trader let it run down to exactly 3 days before they accepted - too late for influencing, and OF COURSE it gendered wrong. You can't replace special codes, really.

[Iside]

I support this. During Halloween it's a real pity to see and catch all those eggs below 3 days, find the exact lineages you were looking for and just sit and look for them to gender wrong.

Maybe the 3 days limit could be removed only for Holiday dragons, because the are "special" and different from all other dragons.

[Nyxity]

They are against this for gender identity purposes!!! One moment a little dragon in its egg is showing signs of gender and then it is suddenly switched one day before it is born! "What am I?!"

Semi-jokes aside... I think we are fortunate enough to have the Influence BSA and the Precognition BSA already. Remember, before male pinks existed you were stuck with what your egg was pre-coded to gender as no matter what, so unless you had a good Abandon-Catch system with someone... Thank you again for Teleport BSA!

[Guillotine]

Arias never had Influence, and Pinks were released with two genders though...? I'm not sure what you mean with that.

 

And it may be nicer to have these than to not, but it's not exactly unreasonable to ask for the cutoff point where can't be used anymore to be altered.
 

[LibbyLishly]

Am I the only person who doesn't throw back misgenders? I don't mind when I fish a low-time egg out of the AP that I can't influence. I HOPE it genders right, but if it doesn't, I can always freeze it or do a flip lineage or a give it a misgendered mate from another lineage. I understand how inconvenient it is for people who really just want to continue the perfect lineage or what have you (I do love me a good checker), and I also recognize that since I like that aspect of gameplay I don't have to use Influence on every egg if the 3-day thing is removed - even now I sometimes play roulette with higher-time eggs from the AP just for fun. I'm just saying that I don't mind this mechanic, Inthink it fits the lore, and I think it's fun to be creative when gendering goes wrong.

 

... Except when a gender influence fails. THAT aspect of the game can go right to The Bad Place.

[Nyxity]

3 hours ago, Guillotine said:

Arias never had Influence, and Pinks were released with two genders though...? I'm not sure what you mean with that.

 

And it may be nicer to have these than to not, but it's not exactly unreasonable to ask for the cutoff point where can't be used anymore to be altered.
 

 

Uh... where did I ever say Arias or the original Pinks having a BSA option?

 

Arias are replacements of the original Pink dragon. The original Pink was female only, as were Purples. I can't remember the reason, but the creator of it wanted it to no longer be available and so those who came after the breed was removed from circulation, many players would desperately try to at least get a second generation of the original Pink from those who owned them. If you look at some lineages carefully, there are lines where a Arias were bred with another dragon and produced the Pink dragon we know of today.

 

Ah, here is an example from my scroll: Arias producing Pinks

Edited November 9, 2017 by Nyxity

[Zeditha]

I agree with this. Eggs can already be influenced while they're able to hatch (between 3d and 4d) so why not later? If there has to be a limit in place, I'd say put it down to one day.

 

And of course, Influence failing needs to stop. It just isn't something that's okay.

 

 

I myself don't even, usually, bother with Influence. Unless it's something I need a specific gender from because I have a mate lined up or it needs to match a Stair or Spiral, it'll gender naturally. Heck, I made this lineage: https://dragcave.net/lineage/wizQW without once using Influence. (I got really lucky with those Olives though.)

[Fuzzbucket]

6 hours ago, LibbyLishly said:

Am I the only person who doesn't throw back misgenders? I don't mind when I fish a low-time egg out of the AP that I can't influence. I HOPE it genders right, but if it doesn't, I can always freeze it or do a flip lineage or a give it a misgendered mate from another lineage. I understand how inconvenient it is for people who really just want to continue the perfect lineage or what have you (I do love me a good checker), and I also recognize that since I like that aspect of gameplay I don't have to use Influence on every egg if the 3-day thing is removed - even now I sometimes play roulette with higher-time eggs from the AP just for fun. I'm just saying that I don't mind this mechanic, Inthink it fits the lore, and I think it's fun to be creative when gendering goes wrong.

 

You aren't alone. But I do have a few from this year's AP that broke my little heart.

 

Especially these two:

https://dragcave.net/lineage/cBRUg

https://dragcave.net/lineage/jyIZH

 

not to mention this which I had HOPED would fit in a lineage I am working on:

https://dragcave.net/lineage/zOx3I

 

I can see the 3 day limit - but I did hate it for a few minutes there.

[Guillotine]

11 hours ago, Nyxity said:

 

Uh... where did I ever say Arias or the original Pinks having a BSA option?

 

Arias are replacements of the original Pink dragon. The original Pink was female only, as were Purples. I can't remember the reason, but the creator of it wanted it to no longer be available and so those who came after the breed was removed from circulation, many players would desperately try to at least get a second generation of the original Pink from those who owned them. If you look at some lineages carefully, there are lines where a Arias were bred with another dragon and produced the Pink dragon we know of today.

 

Ah, here is an example from my scroll: Arias producing Pinks

I am well aware of this; I was here long before Arias were reintroduced as Arias. Do not mudkippin' patronize me by explaining a well-known event to an old player. This does not make them the same breed, especially not as conceived, and you implied it with your wording. If you don't want to imply things you didn't mean, be more careful with your wording.

 

 

Anyway. I usually keep 2nd gen misgenders, but other than that I freeze (or give away, on the rare times I run out). It's still important for hard-to-replace lines to gender correctly.
 

[olympe]

Maybe we could offer a different restriction for influenced eggs? Like this: There's no age restriction for influencing eggs. (Not by the game, anyway.) However, an egg that has been influenced cannot hatch for the next 6 (12? 24?) hours.

 

In cases where it really counts, even 24 hours would be worth it. (Plus, it just might make Aeon's and their BSA a little bit more valuable.)

[HeatherMarie]

Huh. That's an interesting idea @olympe. I like it... It could totally make sense in-game, too, because it makes sense that something as serious/big as changing a gender might not be able to happen instantly, perhaps it needs a little time to "stick" or whatever.