Trader's Canyon

[Thuban]

Nooo thanks, I hate websites where you have to play minigames for currency, they're never fun and even if they are it soon gets tedious. Also all that stuff is supposed to be rare and limited, this way everyone will have them eventually. I like being able to hunt dragons whenever I want on a level playing field, I can choose to invest more time to increase my chances of finding rares but only checking the cave briefly doesn't mean a gold won't appear. Games would just be a chore, having to work for a certain amount before you can obtain your prize.

this /isnt/ just about using games to earn cave dragons. If its available in cave, its not available in this thing. If you can currently /catch/ it in cave as a cb or obtain a sprite by any means other than raffle, its not available in this suggestion. Only things like the HM eligible prizes and prizes themselves are being discussed. I will not add any other breeds to that list (because I dont think cb golds should be "buyable"

 

There are mechanics for /non mini game/ related options being discussed in the other thread, but to keep these threads seperate, I havent put them up here. This one gets to focus on the mini games aspect, and whether the points are points for a store, or mana for a spell.. or whatever.

[Lurhstaap]

If we want to use terms and phraseology that 'sound like' RP, I can live with that.. I just don't want to be dragged into some kind of genuine RP in order to obtain these dragons.

 

And since the basic framework for the X different types of mana (I'm not sure how many there are) are already in place, I suppose it makes sense to use all the different types. I'd just prefer it didn't get too complicated trying to find the different types of mana needed to obtain a particular type of dragon. Basically, if it takes types A, B and C mana to obtain a Tinsel, I don't want to have to jump thru hoops to find types A, B and C because they are rarer than types X, Y and Z. So provided that ALL the different types have the SAME rarity, no problem. But if some types are going to be more rare than others, I don't like that very much.

 

LibbyLishly.. I actually LIKE that scenario. It fits in with DC lore, but is NOT overly RPish. I mean we 'steal' eggs from the cave, so why not 'adopt' from a dragon orphanage. Makes more sense that some of the other scenarios put forth so far.

Well, the differing rarities would probably not be a big deal, depending on how the types of mana were generated. In my suggestion mana could be gained by doing basic site stuff like clicking on growing eggs/hatchies as well as from playing Mana Alchemy or whatever other minigame got chosen as the main vehicle for mana production. Since Mana Alchemy generates mana types at random, on the long run no type of mana would be more or less common from it, and if you needed specific types of mana you could use up your daily mana-gain limit on clicking specific types of growing dragons. Say you needed Life and Dark mana - you could choose to only click on species like Vines who provide that type of mana when clicked. There would be caps to prevent people from spam-grinding and suchlike, but it would still be at most a minor inconvenience to seek out the specific actions you need to get the mana you want - sort of like looking for dragons to click to unlock the Encyclopedia entries, but probably with fewer clicks required to get what you need unless you're going for something like a prize.

 

Now, in that scenario, what would likely happen is that the types of mana required to summon the most rare/popular species (prizes, hollies, that sort of thing) would become very valuable on the -trade market- if mana trading were permitted. However, since there is no requirement for any individual to actually participate in trading to get what they need, that shouldn't matter much. Basically, you could potentially use mana trading to get the mana you need faster by swapping with someone else who has different goals, but you won't be stuck desperately trying to get X Rare Mana to be able to summon what you want and not able to get it because everyone else is demanding ridiculous trades for it. You could just ignore the trade market and go farm it from gameplay. It'd be slower but reliable.

 

And personally I do think cave-accessible eggs should be available in this, if only because I don't see a good reason for them NOT to be, especially the more common eggs. I can understand why you wouldn't want CB metals in there (even though I disagree) but why not commons and uncommons? I'd certainly still take the ones I like from the cave, but if I could summon them as well, that would be delightful too. Plus it would reduce the tendency for people to focus -only- on the prizes, holidays, and such that would be available. Some people will definitely zero in and save up for the big stuff, but a lot of players (such as myself) would be more prone to blow their mana in the short term on less rare but more immediately useful stuff. For example, I currently owe someone a blue lindwurm egg, and my Internet keeps freaking out. I've seen two and missed them both. If this feature existed and included commons and uncommons, I could decide to blow some mana to summon one instead, and I probably would in this situation. So the number of new rares coming into the game would likely be reduced by the presence of other options.

 

To me the dragon orphanage is actually not very logical with DC lore. If there is an orphanage, why does the AP exist? If we had both people would probably ask that question all the time. If we called it an orphanage there would likely be suggestions to allow people to abandon eggs to the orphanage instead of the AP or even to combine the two features, which I do not think is a good idea at all. That's just my view though.

 

Thuban, do you think I should make a new thread for my version of this suggestion? It has a lot in common with yours and with the other point thread, but also a lot different, and I'm beginning to think I should take it to its own thread to keep confusion down even though it started as a variant of your suggestion.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Lurhstaap

[Thuban]

You are welcome to hash it out here.

 

I am satisfied with the basic, basic framework, and know i can work other options in later. I was just about to ask if someone who understands what the base idea here is, would be willing to take over with questions/organization for a few days.. I gotta take care of some things off line, and am stepping back/down for awhile. I'm sure one of the forum mods would be willing to edit either the OP or the second post with more information as you guys work things out.

[Lurhstaap]

You are welcome to hash it out here.

 

I am satisfied with the basic, basic framework, and know i can work other options in later. I was just about to ask if someone who  understands what the base idea here is, would be willing to take over with questions/organization for a few days.. I gotta take care of some things off line, and am stepping back/down for awhile. I'm sure one of the forum mods would be willing to edit either the OP or the second post with more information as you guys work things out.

Well - as I understand it, the basic concept is to allow some ability to earn dragons somehow, to reward dedication and persistence but not necessarily a fast Internet or blind luck as with normal cave-grabbing and the raffle. Specifically, players could earn points (possibly using the existing mana system, but not necessarily), either through playing Mana Alchemy/some other minigame or normal site activity or both, which could then be spent in a "store" to get eggs. The specifics beyond that, such as which dragons to include, what the system will be called, whether to use points or the existing mana system, whether the points/mana would be tradeable, and other details are still under discussion. Is that correct? If so I feel I have enough of a handle on the thread to manage it for a time if need be.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Lurhstaap

[Thuban]

yea, thats about it. When in doubt, i think the op and the linked post at the bottom have it about covered for the base stuff.. but from there, its on you guys to work out something. Dont aim to make everyone happy, thats not gonna happen. Aim for equally unhappy, and we'll all do great

 

 

[amthystfire]

Well - as I understand it, the basic concept is to allow some ability to earn dragons somehow, to reward dedication and persistence but not necessarily a fast Internet or blind luck as with normal cave-grabbing and the raffle. Specifically, players could earn points (possibly using the existing mana system, but not necessarily), either through playing Mana Alchemy/some other minigame or normal site activity or both, which could then be spent in a "store" to get eggs. The specifics beyond that, such as which dragons to include, what the system will be called, whether to use points or the existing mana system, whether the points/mana would be tradeable, and other details are still under discussion. Is that correct? If so I feel I have enough of a handle on the thread to manage it for a time if need be.

I think that pretty much sums it up. I don't mind helping as well if need be.

 

ETA: oh, gorsh, I just thought of something. Where are these eggs going to actually come from? Are they just getting grabbed out of the cave and will have cave locations already associated with them or will they act like old dragons that now only have the "cave" location?

 

OK, less panic after I remembered old cave dragons. Phweew! That seems the simplest solution.

 

And Thuban ninjaed me.

Edited January 16, 2015 by amthystfire

[Lurhstaap]

I think that pretty much sums it up. I don't mind helping as well if need be.

 

ETA: oh, gorsh, I just thought of something. Where are these eggs going to actually come from? Are they just getting grabbed out of the cave and will have cave locations already associated with them or will they act like old dragons that now only have the "cave" location?

 

OK, less panic after I remembered old cave dragons. Phweew! That seems the simplest solution.

 

And Thuban ninjaed me.

Yes, I think summoned eggs would most likely be given the "Cave" designation, just like GoNs. Alternatively, if cave-available eggs are included, they could simply be given a typical location for their species. This would make most sense with species that can only be found in one or two places - for example if I summoned an Ember, it would make sense for it to have come from the Volcano. Another alternative would be to add a new location called 'Manaborn' or 'Summoned' I guess but I think 'Cave' or a randomly assigned appropriate biome would make more sense.

 

yea, thats about it. When in doubt, i think the op and the linked post at the bottom have it about covered for the base stuff.. but from there, its on you guys to work out something. Dont aim to make everyone happy, thats not gonna happen. Aim for equally unhappy, and we'll all do great

 

No worries - I used to be in TJ's shoes at a different site more or less. I know a lot about compromise in game design. I'm sure we can hash something out that's at least moderately acceptable to most of the involved players.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Lurhstaap

[Thuban]

I did have the thought that these eggs.. should have a different designation... Stolen on =cb, laid on = bred.. these would need.. something to lable the as different i think. no biome ties.. no.. "purchased on", summoned on.. doesnt quite work

 

perhaps you guys can work that out too?

 

im sure the two of you can handle this. thank you both for offering to keep it going.

 

Edit:

(PS: i will still be lurking chat and checking in on the forums.. so I am reachable )

Edited January 17, 2015 by Thuban

[amthystfire]

I did have the thought that these eggs.. should have a different designation... Stolen on =cb, laid on = bred.. these would need.. something to lable the as different i think. no biome ties.. no.. "purchased on", summoned on.. doesnt quite work

 

perhaps you guys can work that out too?

 

im sure the two of you can handle this. thank you both for offering to keep it going.

 

Edit:

(PS: i will still be lurking chat and checking in on the forums.. so I am reachable )

I think that the egg designation will really depend on the flavor of the eventual store that comes out, but, at worst, stolen on still works as the egg was stolen. Technically. By the shop owner or by magic or by some contrivance that has yet to be thougt of....

 

 

Speaking of, I have had an idea that has been rattling about the old noggin, and won't go away; I will present it herein hopes that giving it paper will make it go away (this has about a 50% success rate, the rest of the time it just feeds them).

 

So, my thought is that instead of buying specific dragons, you take your cash and pay a guide/buy a map to a secret tunnel in the back of the cave. There you see an array of whatever level eggs you have chosen, based on what's available.

 

I.e. you buy a metallic map and it shows you golds, silvers, and coppers, and maybe prizes. You pick one up, the guide shows you back down/you get out and the map disappears, and you can't quite remember how to get back, but the dude will certainly be around next time you want him.

[olympe]

You know, this would tie in nicely with the remote biomes idea.

 

Overall, I'd like it best if we got the following combination:

- "Store" (or whatever this is going to be called) to get rare/HM dragons as well as maps to remote biomes with lots of new dragons. Such a map should be cheap enough so you can get it in about 2-4 weeks of intense "work" or "dedication" so that even casual players will get there without too much trouble.

- gaining points through activity (hatching, raising/freezing dragons, plus small and strictly capped amounts of points through using typical actions (breed, catch, influence, incubate, summon, name, plus maybe bite)

- gaining additional points through mini-games

[Valfaris]

Lovely suggestions here. It sure would be nice to see more of the finished dragons the spriters and artists spent so much time on.

 

As designation for the Orphanage/Store dragons, how about simply "adopted on..." and "discovered on..." for remote biome breeds?

 

Hmm, points for breeding could possibly lead to more AP overflow. Even when the points for that cap quickly there'll always be some people playing drunk blind date night with half their scroll in hopes of squeezing out more. But then again, people already do that without points...

Hatching, raising and freezing are definitely nice for points.

[olympe]

Lovely suggestions here. It sure would be nice to see more of the finished dragons the spriters and artists spent so much time on. 

 

As designation for the Orphanage/Store dragons, how about simply "adopted on..." and "discovered on..." for remote biome breeds?

 

Hmm, points for breeding could possibly lead to more AP overflow. Even when the points for that cap quickly there'll always be some people playing drunk blind date night with half their scroll in hopes of squeezing out more. But then again, people already do that without points... 

Hatching, raising and freezing are definitely nice for points.

Well, I made a little list in the other thread of how these "activity points" could be distributed. It looked roughly like this (after adding some other thought):

• 2-3 points each for hatching, raising and freezing a dragon. (No cap.)
• 1 point for using the breed action. (cap: 1 point per day!)
• 1 point for catching a dragon. (cap: 1 point per day to prevent abuse by catching=>abandoning=>catching again in the AP)
• 1 point for using Incubate. (Either with or without cap is fine with me - but I prefer with a cap of 1/day)
• 1 point for using influence. (cap: 1 point per day, but could also work without.)
• 1 point for using teleport with one of your own magis. The teleport needs to be accepted by someone else. (cap: 1 point per day. Or people would teleport stuff back and forth until kingdom come.)
• 1 point for naming a dragon. (cap: 1 point per day. Again, to prevent abuse by endless renaming.)
• plus however many points seem a good idea for mini games or collecting games like the Easter egg hunts or ToT games.

If we are going by mana crystals as "points", I think either random distribution (random mana shards popping up on the page ever X minutes) or a distribution that is in accord with the action would be best.

Example: You catch an egg/hatchie of a fire-based breed. You get 1 fire mana shard.

You catch an egg/hatchie of a life-based breed. You get 1 life mana shard.

You use the breed action of a water-based dragon. You get 1 water mana shard. (Only if it was the first breeding of the day.)

You use incubate on a darkness-based egg. You get one darkness mana shard.

You use teleport on a earth-based egg/hatchie. (Only the first item in a teleport with several items counts.) You get one earth mana shard. And so on.

 

If we do get more than one mini game eventually, we should have mini games representing different alignments (Creation, Change, Destruction) or even the different elements. (Well, eventually.) Or we should be able to choose the mana we get.

Edited January 17, 2015 by olympe

[Tawanda001]

If we are going by mana crystals as "points", I think either random distribution (random mana shards popping up on the page ever X minutes) or a distribution that is in accord with the action would be best.

Example: You catch an egg/hatchie of a fire-based breed. You get 1 fire mana shard.

You catch an egg/hatchie of a life-based breed. You get 1 life mana shard.

You use the breed action of a water-based dragon. You get 1 water mana shard. (Only if it was the first breeding of the day.)

You use incubate on a darkness-based egg. You get one darkness mana shard.

You use teleport on a earth-based egg/hatchie. (Only the first item in a teleport with several items counts.) You get one earth mana shard. And so on.

 

If we do get more than one mini game eventually, we should have mini games representing different alignments (Creation, Change, Destruction) or even the different elements. (Well, eventually.) Or we should be able to choose the mana we get.

As in to get a particular dragon you need x number of fire mana and x number of water and x number of neutral mana in some specified combination? Different dragons would have different combinations?

Because I totally don't want that.

How would that work for someone like my daughter who basically only collects two of each new release and usually only breeds in order to AP holiday eggs, how would she be able to collect enough of the different kinds of mana? Because random generation of mana is probably not always going to be that random, you're bringing in an element of luck again. I'd rather stick with a set price, this is worth 1200 points of any type, not you need to have 300 of this and 400 of that, etc.

[LibbyLishly]

As in to get a particular dragon you need x number of fire mana and x number of water and x number of neutral mana in some specified combination? Different dragons would have different combinations?

Because I totally don't want that.

How would that work for someone like my daughter who basically only collects two of each new release and usually only breeds in order to AP holiday eggs, how would she be able to collect enough of the different kinds of mana? Because random generation of mana is probably not always going to be that random, you're bringing in an element of luck again. I'd rather stick with a set price, this is worth 1200 points of any type, not you need to have 300 of this and 400 of that, etc.

I could see a compromise between the two: doing XYZ may grant you a particular type of mana (breeding a water dragon gives you 1 shard of water mana, playing the minigame may net you various sorts of mana much like mana alchemy), but they're all put into a lump sum that represents how much mana total you have, and "prices" will be something like 700 mana total, not 300 water mana + 400 fire mana.

 

What would be the point of even having the various kinds of mana featured, then? Simply RP continuity, nothing more. After all, how could breeding a water dragon x water dragon give you anything but water or life mana? But in the end, the mana would still be mana and would all be thrown into the same heap.

 

My two cents. *shrugs*

 

ETA: mana mana mana. (How many times can I use the same word in a single post? Seriously.)

Edited January 17, 2015 by LibbyLishly

[Cinnamin Draconna]

I totally agree, I do NOT want to get that detail oriented. Collecting mana is fine, but I would prefer the mana to be generic. As in, while it might say that you collected X fire mana, that X just goes into a common pool and becomes a generic total.

 

I do NOT want to have to collect X different types of mana, each with their own total pool. Then have to have Y amount of fire and Z amount of water to collect something. Just one overall total is more than enough.

[irercha]

Well, I made a little list in the other thread of how these "activity points" could be distributed. It looked roughly like this (after adding some other thought):

2-3 points each for hatching, raising and freezing a dragon. (No cap.)

1 point for using the breed action. (cap: 1 point per day!)

1 point for catching a dragon. (cap: 1 point per day to prevent abuse by catching=>abandoning=>catching again in the AP)

1 point for using Incubate. (Either with or without cap is fine with me - but I prefer with a cap of 1/day)

1 point for using influence. (cap: 1 point per day, but could also work without.)

1 point for using teleport with one of your own magis. The teleport needs to be accepted by someone else. (cap: 1 point per day. Or people would teleport stuff back and forth until kingdom come.)

1 point for naming a dragon. (cap: 1 point per day. Again, to prevent abuse by endless renaming.)

plus however many points seem a good idea for mini games or collecting games like the Easter egg hunts or ToT games.

I'd prefer point limit per week not day. It seems more fair for people who cannot be online each day (due to work, school and RL in general) and are more active, lets say, on weekends...

 

If we are going by mana crystals as "points", I think either random distribution (random mana shards popping up on the page ever X minutes) or a distribution that is in accord with the action would be best.

Popping out? Like during the holiday event? Please, no, not that. It's fine for a first few shards, but then gets irritating.

 

Apart from that I'd love any solution which can bring the possibility to get cb alts and hybrids back, so support

[SilverGreeneye]

It occurs to me that this could be an excellent way of clearing out the backlog of unreleased dragons without inundating the cave with new releases, creating new cave blockers, or overwhelming players with so many descriptions to remember. If it was made so that caveborn "specials" could only be bought in the store, but their offspring could be traded or abandoned, then those who don't want to bother with minigames could still obtain specials through trading or the ap. That makes them similar to what Prizes are now, but there would be more foundation pairs, making them less valuable than prizes, and anyone who makes the effort can get them cb, rather than relying on luck. Also, if the ratios are set to something less than rare, the specials will breed true more readily than prizes, again making them more available and less valuable than prizes in trading and the ap.

[Fiona]

I really don't want to see dragons that are obtained only through a store, whether they're tradeable as cb or whatever. It's not a mechanic that I think benefits the game as those who choose not to play the store minigame with feel compelled to out of a desire to have the "exclusive" dragons, or end up paying heavily for them in trade.

 

Also, having a huge flood of new dragons, however they're obtained, is not a good thing either. It'd be overwhelming and chaotic and in general create problems.

[Fuzzbucket]

I totally agree, I do NOT want to get that detail oriented. Collecting mana is fine, but I would prefer the mana to be generic. As in, while it might say that you collected X fire mana, that X just goes into a common pool and becomes a generic total.

 

I do NOT want to have to collect X different types of mana, each with their own total pool. Then have to have Y amount of fire and Z amount of water to collect something. Just one overall total is more than enough.

Yeah. My brain is starting to ache again..

 

Fi - are you not OK with this being a way to get what used to be HM prizes ? Even the change averse fuzz is almost OK with that...

 

But absolutely NOT a way to clear the backlog of completed dragons.

[Syphoneira]

I really don't want to see dragons that are obtained only through a store, whether they're tradeable as cb or whatever. It's not a mechanic that I think benefits the game as those who choose not to play the store minigame with feel compelled to out of a desire to have the "exclusive" dragons, or end up paying heavily for them in trade. ...

 

 

 

Exactly!

 

It's one thing having a few special variations, such as CB Hollie's or CB hybrids available through some mechanism or another, but Releasing NEW dragon sprites through a time-consuming bottle-neck whereby one must do something outside catching/breeding/entering a Raffle would create horrific issues, and doesn't sound like fun at all.

 

This might work on some sites, but DC is different, and that's why a lot of us joined.

 

 

Edit: never mind me, need more coffee and both eyelids open before commenting, lol.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Syphoneira

[BlueMint]

I really don't want to see dragons that are obtained only through a store, whether they're tradeable as cb or whatever. It's not a mechanic that I think benefits the game as those who choose not to play the store minigame with feel compelled to out of a desire to have the "exclusive" dragons, or end up paying heavily for them in trade.

 

Also, having a huge flood of new dragons, however they're obtained, is not a good thing either. It'd be overwhelming and chaotic and in general create problems.

I second this...

I dont like this idea.

[olympe]

It occurs to me that this could be an excellent way of clearing out the backlog of unreleased dragons without inundating the cave with new releases, creating new cave blockers, or overwhelming players with so many descriptions to remember.  If it was made so that caveborn "specials" could only be bought in the store, but their offspring could be traded or abandoned, then those who don't want to bother with minigames could still obtain specials through trading or the ap.  That makes them similar to what Prizes are now, but there would be more foundation pairs, making them less valuable than prizes, and anyone who makes the effort can get them cb, rather than relying on luck.  Also, if the ratios are set to something less than rare, the specials will breed true more readily than prizes, again making them more available and less valuable than prizes in trading and the ap.

Actually, this refers to the idea to combine this "store" with the idea of remote biomes. It's not about buying "regular" exclusives, but about buying map that leads you to a new biome. You wouldn't have to buy the map more than once to get access to that biome, so once "bought", this map allows you to collect various "exclusives" at your leisure. By hunting for eggs.

Edited January 17, 2015 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

Actually, this refers to the idea to combine this "store" with the idea of remote biomes. It's not about buying "regular" exclusives, but about buying map that leads you to a new biome. You wouldn't have to buy the map more than once to get access to that biome, so once "bought", this map allows you to collect various "exclusives" at your leisure. By hunting for eggs.

Only HM style exclusives, right ?

[olympe]

I think that depends. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with HM style exclusives - but I think they should be "buy"-only. The maps would be more like life-long tickets into another biome. Tickets that should be much cheaper than the "exclusvie" dragons. Personally, I was thinking to price the maps so that you could buy one with 2-4 weeks of dedicated playing (as a beginner - long-time player might be able to get them easier if the "points for activity" suggestion does get implemented alongside this one.

[LibbyLishly]

I think that depends. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with HM style exclusives - but I think they should be "buy"-only. The maps would be more like life-long tickets into another biome. Tickets that should be much cheaper than the "exclusvie" dragons. Personally, I was thinking to price the maps so that you could buy one with 2-4 weeks of dedicated playing (as a beginner - long-time player might be able to get them easier if the "points for activity" suggestion does get implemented alongside this one.

With a low enough "price" on the maps, I could actually see this working. I would hope that TJ would give it a good long time before he released anything new exclusively to the remote biomes, and gave warning before the release, so that the majority of people could make sure they had access in time.