Trader's Canyon

[olympe]

Hmm. I think it would be interesting to need certain mana elements in certain numbers in order to "summon" a dragon egg via spell. Especially if each kind of mana is only available in one kind of mini game. (Which means we'd have to have several mini games.)

 

Additionally to this, I'd love to see this combined with gaining mana for hatching/raising dragons as suggested in the "Earning Special Sprites Through Activity" thread.

[Lurhstaap]

Thats not a very nice thing to say. Its not a matter of being lazy, some people do not have time to devote to playing mini games or whatever all day every day. My kids can only budget about twenty minutes a day here, if they choose not to play other games (they only get a total of 2 hours of game time tops.. if they take too long doing homework or chores, they lose computer time in the process). I am working on working out some non-mini game options for gaining points, just very highly distracted atm.

 

 

 

As a heads up folks: I might be a bit quiet over the next day or two, so please try not to go too crazy with ideas in here (unless someone wants to volunteer to keep track of it all for me). I had to take my youngest to the ER today, and shes pretty heavily medicated right now (potential Asthma, shes fine, just medicated up)

Well no just to be fair sometimes laziness IS involved. For example despite my big talk about desperately wanting stuff like CB Hollies, I know myself. In reality, if this feature existed and took even half as much work as most of us think it ought to, I would probably never bother getting around to it. I'm just not motivated enough. I have plenty of time, being disabled - I spend half my time on my laptop. But as much as I want some things, I am basically lazy and therefore if I ever got to the goal it would probably take me a VERY long time, much longer than for more motivated and active people. Just to be brutally honest.

 

Good luck! I hope your little one feels better soon.

[LibbyLishly]

Sending prayers for your daughter's health, Thuban.

 

If I didn't already say this, I'm more than supportive of the idea of calling points "mana", since it works in well with the world lore we've recently been getting. I'm not sure how I feel about having to have different kinds of mana for different kinds of dragons - on the one hand, it would make sense and be kind of interesting to have to focus on collecting, say, "death" mana because you wanted to earn a Grave, and so either have to focus one of multiple minigames or just keep an eye on your various mana totals. On the other hand, breaking it down that far might complicate things too much for some players to be happy. So... I'm neutral mana, I guess.

[Syphoneira]

Thats not a very nice thing to say. Its not a matter of being lazy, some people do not have time to devote to playing mini games or whatever all day every day. My kids can only budget about twenty minutes a day here, if they choose not to play other games (they only get a total of 2 hours of game time tops.. if they take too long doing homework or chores, they lose computer time in the process). I am working on working out some non-mini game options for gaining points, just very highly distracted atm.

 

 

 

As a heads up folks: I might be a bit quiet over the next day or two, so please try not to go too crazy with ideas in here (unless someone wants to volunteer to keep track of it all for me). I had to take my youngest to the ER today, and shes pretty heavily medicated right now (potential Asthma, shes fine, just medicated up)

 

 

 

 

Just want to send hugs and best wishes to you and the little one!

 

I know she'll be fine, but what a worry, nonetheless...

 

[Quinney]

and you can't complain if you're too lazy to take the time.

The fact that I'm up at 4.30am five days a week for work and consequently a little tired when I get home is one of the reasons I want Dragon Cave to stay as it is, a nice relaxing 'go at your own pace' collector's game.

 

So some people have excuses for being 'lazy'.

[Rally Vincent]

[...] and from how I read TJ's posts, that's all he was saying too. Your posts do not suggest that you acknowledge that you could be wrong, at all, and that's what he responded to. You are not being held to a different standard, you are just expressing yourself more certainly than others and someone commented on it.

I think I'll leave it at the following quote of my own because it sums up my answer to your post.

 

Of course, I may be wrong with all of this. I just think this is at least very plausible. In my opinion, you guys mostly discuss what you see as positive (with truth to an extent, no doubt), but in your euphoria neglect the dangers of this suggestion.

 

That is part of the post TJ quoted. I started that post with "I am of a different opinion, I said I may be wrong at the end." Opinions never are facts and vice versa. Facts can be proven, opinions are always subjective. If I state an opinion, it is my opinion, not a universal truth.

 

If I would say that Ice is less dense than water and thus floats in water, I would not state an opinion. That would be a fact. A fact can be proven objectively. An opinion is always subjective, while opinions rely on judgement or a prognosis.

 

And finally, please tell me - what good would an opinon be that conveys I amnot even believing it myself?

 

Edit:

 

And with 'cave', I mean the game as-is, not the biomes only.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Rally Vincent

[Thuban]

So after going back through everything: the basic framework seems to be mostly ok. it seems people are both equally happy, and unhappy about certain features.

 

Certain aspects, have people on edge, but, because I cant guarentee anything working the way i intend 100 %, there isn't much I can do about that specifically. All I can do is work with whatever information we have to work with, and go from there.

 

As it stands, the hopeful end goal here will make every HM eligible prize available after a set amount of time available by saving up (points, mana whatever we want to call it) by either playing mini games or through normal day to day playing dc the way it was intended to be played.

 

The story building aspect of it seems to have mixed reactions, however I personally am not going to touch that aspect with a ten foot pole, I fully intend to leave that up to the world builders and TJ. Those people with those types of story building ideas are welcome to flesh them out a bit if needed here but I need them to keep the overall idea of what they are aiming for in one post (sort of like how I have the second post linked in my OP that clarifies things more). Once you guys have a more clarified option laid out, toss me a pm with a link that I can refer people to, please.

 

Store exclusive dragons have had a definite, resounding no, so I think its fairly safe to assume those would NOT be included, so you guys who are stressing about that, can relax a bit.

 

I have been trying to keep up with every concern addressed, and am continuing to flesh things out as I go, but im fairly confident that the base framework is at least pretty sturdy. Until we hear one way or another about the status of HMs and whether TJ is willing to consider having prizes and such available in there, we are at a bit of a standstill on that front.

 

I am the queen of compromise. If something comes up that is going to prevent us from doing something, I will gladly try to find a way to work something out. Some of the other options coming up the last few days have some major potential, and im happy to work with you guys to find a solution that makes everyone at least mostly happy.

[Ashtoret]

I haven't read all the suggestions, just my opinion: There should be a daily/weekly limit of points a user can make, and it shouldn't be too high, so that a person that spends 10 minutes per day with DC has a similar chance as a person that spends 4 hours on it. I have read a suggestion I think in a different thread: egg hatches on scroll: 1 point, hatchi grows up on scroll: 1 point, doing both on the same scroll: 2 points - simple but in my opinion an elegant solution.

 

+ limit of rares + non-tradeable would be good imo.

[Thuban]

I haven't read all the suggestions, just my opinion: There should be a daily/weekly limit of points a user can make, and it shouldn't be too high, so that a person that spends 10 minutes per day with DC has a similar chance as a person that spends 4 hours on it. I have read a suggestion I think in a different thread: egg hatches on scroll: 1 point, hatchi grows up on scroll: 1 point, doing both on the same scroll: 2 points - simple but in my opinion an elegant solution.

 

+ limit of rares + non-tradeable would be good imo.

That basic premise has been covered already (i believe its in my first post even)

 

A daily/weekly cap DOES exist in THIS suggestion. The other suggestions options, could work with this one (I dont necessarily like the current mechanic they have, but would gladly agree to it providing that they add caps to daily gains).

 

Certain rares being suggested have a cap, but not everything does at this time. That however, will be subject to change. Some things are being considered tradable for the most part, but that also, may change.

[Lurhstaap]

Sending prayers for your daughter's health, Thuban.

 

If I didn't already say this, I'm more than supportive of the idea of calling points "mana", since it works in well with the world lore we've recently been getting. I'm not sure how I feel about having to have different kinds of mana for different kinds of dragons - on the one hand, it would make sense and be kind of interesting to have to focus on collecting, say, "death" mana because you wanted to earn a Grave, and so either have to focus one of multiple minigames or just keep an eye on your various mana totals. On the other hand, breaking it down that far might complicate things too much for some players to be happy. So... I'm neutral mana, I guess.

I support the breakdown only because the mana system already exists, complete with art and a drop system that could be slightly modified to fit the new feature, and it would make most sense to use existing systems in this rather than invent new ones.

[Lurhstaap]

I think I'll leave it at the following quote of my own because it sums up my answer to your post.

 

 

 

That is part of the post TJ quoted.  I started that post with "I am of a different opinion, I said I may be wrong at the end." Opinions never are facts and vice versa. Facts can be proven, opinions are always subjective. If I state an opinion, it is my opinion, not a universal truth.

 

If I would say that Ice is less dense than water and thus floats in water, I would state an opinion. That would be a fact. A fact can be proven objectively. An opinion is always subjective, while opinions rely on judgement or a prognosis.

 

And finally, please tell me - what good would an opinon be that conveys I amnot even believing it myself?

 

Edit:

 

And with 'cave', I mean the game as-is, not the biomes only.

I actually had forgotten or overlooked that line. Fair enough in that case. But the thing is, it's not black and white. There is a gray scale in between of potentials and possibilities. They cannot be absolutely proven, no, but evidence can be provided in favor of them. And you did do that in pointing out the past history of Suggestions and so forth. But there were flaws with your examples and those were pointed out. It's a back-and-forth sort of thing.

 

Again, there are degrees of certainty. It may well be worth expressing an idea even if you're unsure how valid it may be. Even if you find it improbable. Just as when I noted that it might be a good idea to tie the summoning ability to the existing scroll trophy system - I am not necessarily sure that's a good idea, but I threw it in anyway because it's as valid as any other raw concept, and the only way to test it is to throw it out there and see what other people think.

 

I think it's mainly just the apparent rigidity of your general tone that TJ (and to a lesser degree I) reacted to. Communication online can be difficult. I know your intent is genuine, and you know mine is (or so I hope). Furthermore it's clear you find our arguments as lacking as we find yours. So perhaps both of us need to sharpen our approach a bit. The goal is to achieve a system that will be useful and a positive thing for as many players as possible, people with your perspective included, and we can't achieve that without you and people like you speaking your mind. So please do continue to voice what you consider to be defects or flaws with the suggestion! Just don't expect people to always agree with you - like I said before, disagreeing with you is not meant to imply that you shouldn't have expressed yourself.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Lurhstaap

[CrystalSetsuna]

guys, just to clarify, i was not referring to people with legitimate reasons such as school or work. life is important and i'm not one to deny that.

 

what i was referring to was the people who DO have the time, and who want things easy. you know, like people in yugioh dueling who want a card that'll just let them load up their field with multiple powerful monsters so they can kick their opponents butt in an OTK, instead of taking the time and effort of a ritual/synchro to call out the monsters they need one at a time. people who want a shortcut.

 

also, key word i used was IF. if you are not a lazy person who wants a shortcut to make things easy without much of a challenge or time investment, this obviously does not apply to you.

 

just to clarify for anyone who might have possibly made assumptions about what i said, because it wasn't meant towards anyone in particular. also sorry for the dueling reference if no one really gets it, first thing that came to mind....^^0

Edited January 16, 2015 by CrystalSetsuna

[Syphoneira]

Looking at just the implementation of this idea (and not what is being offered) I rather liked the RP part of what C4 and Mysfytt were suggesting a few pages back. I understand there are those who would prefer to keep it strictly "collect points - redeem points - get egg" and keep the RP part out. That would be ok, but I just personally like the idea of adding the lore we're building. It's more game-like to me and less business-y.

 

So, collect mana via whatever, in 13 varieties. (the 12 elements plus neutral) Maybe you need to use a bit of the neutral mana to "craft" a spell scroll. (paper/parchment being readily available (i.e. you don't have to buy it, it's assumed your character always has some)) Regular parchment for scrolls is not sturdy enough to hold the magic, so we enchant it. This gives us the "recipe" for the particular dragon we want to summon. (x points of neutral mana, y points of A mana, z points of B mana, etc.)

 

We also need to enchant some glass with neutral mana to make a large beaker or the like to hold our neutral mana stabilizer. (glass also being assumed as always available) Once done we just "follow the recipe" and voila! Egg. With appropriate flavor text.

 

So, it's less like just walking into a store and buying a dragon egg, and more like we're doing magic spells to summon either the mother dragon or just the egg from wherever.

 

 

 

I strongly feel that something like this idea fits much better with DC than purchasing dragons at a store, which to me follows the stock-trading aspect taking over DC with the Prize 'market' and all the associated rest, something that a number of us view as the more unfortunate aspects of RL (which we try to escape here,) taking over DC.

 

Personally, I would much rather be working toward gaining magical power to conjure up dragons I perhaps can't get any other way than adding by my very labours to the recent notions of dragons variously either as a potentially profitable commodity or 'worthless' in relation to and in the interest of the purchase of luxury items (low-gen Prizes) they're measured against, rather than being invested with whatever individual worth people might otherwise give them.

 

Somehow, this just doesn't mesh with what I thought the concept of the magical DC world of dragons was...

 

 

 

Edit: thanks, lorimmel!

 

The Prize sprites are gorgeous, yet even they are overshadowed by the 'trade value' issue, and I'd very much like to feel that we could get back to amassing our dragon hordes because we like the sprites/lineages or whatever, without a culture increasingly involving an ideology of 'investing' in 'wealth-producers', rather than swapping for sprites based on what they actually are and mean to us personally.

 

If things are likely to be worked in a manner where accumulated magic, rather than simple commerce, is the means employed to acquire normally unobtainable dragons, the DC culture and community merely expands by this, rather than further altering in a commercialized direction some of us would really rather not be heading, so I'm much relieved.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Syphoneira

[lorimmel]

My back up plan in this case is that if this idea does become something that might actually happen, then the people who would deal with it will eventually morph it to include dc lores and settings. The artists/writers for events are the ones that are creating said lore, so they are the only ones who can do that. Not us.

 

@Syphoneira, the store in this suggestion is a blanket term, a simplification. It only means "collect points, redeem points" system. It doesn't mean it will have the feel of actual "store". Most probably it will be based on mana, alchemy and such.

[DragonNighthowler]

Thuban, my best thoughts for your daughter. Hope she gets well soon.

 

Sorry for the off topic, I don't have much to say about the suggestion right now.

[amthystfire]

I think the "keeping the RP element out" is more about (at least in my case, because I totally support the whole RP feel) not wanting to step on the toes of the artist people who are dealing with the actual implementation.

 

What I feel like we are trying to do is "build a house."

 

We (the players supporting this idea) are providing the lumber and such for the framework. We are building the structure of the house. We say, we want the house to look like THIS.

 

Then we send it off to TJ and his artists and they put walls up, and paint and decorate. They put window dressing on the whole thing.

 

So, commentary on what the window dressing should be is....premature. I want the window dressing. I have no doubt that when this is all said and done (if it is, in fact, implemented) it will be amazing. But the ground work has to be laid FIRST, and THEN, we get our pretties. But that's ok. If it is to be, we will get there.

 

I'm not sure that for THIS idea, there is really too much more to be said.....But maybe I'm wrong.

[cyradis4]

I think that for the "redeem" part of the equation, this pretty much covers it. Just so long as TJ and all know that calling the redeeming place a "store" is likely to get a lot of people's dander up.

 

So now the question needs to turn to the "points" part of the equation, and I think that for that, it should be in its own thread, so as not to clutter this one up and confuse people.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Amazon_warrior]

I think the "keeping the RP element out" is more about (at least in my case, because I totally support the whole RP feel) not wanting to step on the toes of the artist people who are dealing with the actual implementation.

 

What I feel like we are trying to do is "build a house."

 

We (the players supporting this idea) are providing the lumber and such for the framework. We are building the structure of the house. We say, we want the house to look like THIS.

 

Then we send it off to TJ and his artists and they put walls up, and paint and decorate. They put window dressing on the whole thing.

 

So, commentary on what the window dressing should be is....premature. I want the window dressing. I have no doubt that when this is all said and done (if it is, in fact, implemented) it will be amazing. But the ground work has to be laid FIRST, and THEN, we get our pretties. But that's ok. If it is to be, we will get there.

 

I'm not sure that for THIS idea, there is really too much more to be said.....But maybe I'm wrong.

Good analogy.

[Thuban]

I think the "keeping the RP element out" is more about (at least in my case, because I totally support the whole RP feel) not wanting to step on the toes of the artist people who are dealing with the actual implementation.

 

What I feel like we are trying to do is "build a house."

 

We (the players supporting this idea) are providing the lumber and such for the framework. We are building the structure of the house. We say, we want the house to look like THIS.

 

Then we send it off to TJ and his artists and they put walls up, and paint and decorate. They put window dressing on the whole thing.

 

So, commentary on what the window dressing should be is....premature. I want the window dressing. I have no doubt that when this is all said and done (if it is, in fact, implemented) it will be amazing. But the ground work has to be laid FIRST, and THEN, we get our pretties. But that's ok. If it is to be, we will get there.

 

I'm not sure that for THIS idea, there is really too much more to be said.....But maybe I'm wrong.

great breakdown. Thank you for breaking it down better than I have been.

 

 

Also: i feel like im sort of killing discussion on this suggestion because I keep insisting the base idea needs to be kept simple. The writers, will make it work, if the time comes to make it work. The framework still has a few kinks in it, but it does work. I have no objection to the other thread using ideas from this one, to make theirs work, or working their idea into this ones framework, once they figure out how they want their option to work. Im flexible. Mini games are cool, standard game play gaining points/mana, is fine. RP aspects are fine with me, as are just having basic "ideas".

 

I'm not comfortable working out RP type options.. im not going to stop you guys from doing it.

[Syphoneira]

I think that for the "redeem" part of the equation, this pretty much covers it. Just so long as TJ and all know that calling the redeeming place a "store" is likely to get a lot of people's dander up.

 

So now the question needs to turn to the "points" part of the equation, and I think that for that, it should be in its own thread, so as not to clutter this one up and confuse people.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

 

Lol, not just dander up; terminology/different concepts/presentation affect(s) not only the way individuals perceive things, but whole cultures.

 

A whole massively overgrown (multi-billlion-dollar) PR and associated social engineering field of industry is based on this.

 

Simplistically (if probably rather clumsily) put, if circumstances and PR dictate that we come to phrase everything in terms of material gain and this becomes normalized throughout a society as THE ideal and general motivator and main purpose of Life, the Universe and Everything, this is typically with everything (and everyone else not profiting wildly) assessed according to such ideology and thereby devalued in the common vision (or what may be presented as such,) if not 'valuable' within these limited financial terms idealizing only those most wealthy; but if actualized in terms of magic at DC and perceived in terms of wow, cool! this does not involve financial concepts and in that respect is without comparatively limiting the perceived value of anything or anyone else in relation to the ideology used.

 

Conditioning hasn't directly programmed many (if any) of us to regard people using less magic as 'deadbeats' as some of us may have been with those not earning enough money to adequately survive, so the same association doesn't kick in.

 

And Summoning creatures by magic sits in an entirely different context than buying creatures in a store.

 

The use of a currency more firmly entrenches the financial aspects already imposed on a magical world.

 

So the use of magic - rather than points regarded as a currency - as the mechanism for invoking creatures could have a profound effect on the direction of the site/community, one with which a number of us would be much more content.

 

And I'll hope that TJ and the artists will indeed invoke the magic for this.

[LibbyLishly]

What if it's considered adoption rather than buying?

 

This could rapidly get sticky, so let me see if I can phrase this properly:

 

Perhaps a sort of "orphanage", or a "shelter", for various wildling breeds exists. Maybe the dragon parents, cognizant of the dangers of leaving their eggs in the wild, bring their eggs here, where they are pampered and looked after until such time as a suitable adoption can be arranged. The orphanage/shelter needs mana to continue to survive. Thus, a dragon breeder/tamer gives the orphanage/shelter the mana they've collected in exchange for adopting one of these special breeds, much as you give money to an animal shelter in order to adopt a cat or a dog, or even as adopting an orphaned child from another country will cost a great deal of money through various avenues.

 

I know what I'm spouting is all purely RP, not anything practical to do with the suggestion, but maybe considering the place-where-you-get-these-eggies a shelter or an orphanage rather than a store will help soothe some of concerns over the ramifications of an in-game currency (something that I myself am concerned about) or the ability to "buy" dragons.

Edited January 16, 2015 by LibbyLishly

[Cinnamin Draconna]

If we want to use terms and phraseology that 'sound like' RP, I can live with that.. I just don't want to be dragged into some kind of genuine RP in order to obtain these dragons.

 

And since the basic framework for the X different types of mana (I'm not sure how many there are) are already in place, I suppose it makes sense to use all the different types. I'd just prefer it didn't get too complicated trying to find the different types of mana needed to obtain a particular type of dragon. Basically, if it takes types A, B and C mana to obtain a Tinsel, I don't want to have to jump thru hoops to find types A, B and C because they are rarer than types X, Y and Z. So provided that ALL the different types have the SAME rarity, no problem. But if some types are going to be more rare than others, I don't like that very much.

 

LibbyLishly.. I actually LIKE that scenario. It fits in with DC lore, but is NOT overly RPish. I mean we 'steal' eggs from the cave, so why not 'adopt' from a dragon orphanage. Makes more sense that some of the other scenarios put forth so far.

[Imzadi]

Hands LibbyLishly cookies and hot chocolate. It just sounds so much better the way you put it

[cbussiere]

Nooo thanks, I hate websites where you have to play minigames for currency, they're never fun and even if they are it soon gets tedious. Also all that stuff is supposed to be rare and limited, this way everyone will have them eventually. I like being able to hunt dragons whenever I want on a level playing field, I can choose to invest more time to increase my chances of finding rares but only checking the cave briefly doesn't mean a gold won't appear. Games would just be a chore, having to work for a certain amount before you can obtain your prize.

[Valfaris]

I am tentatively but generally in favour of the idea, including the terminology/fluff with mana and adoption. Two important words: Longterm value.

I know a lot of players who're on semi-hiatus from DC, only stopping by for new monthlyreleases, if at all, or the Holidays. This rewards players who are patient and loyal and gives many something to strive for.

 

In my opinion hunting the caves for hours in hopes of seeing a shiny whiz by and spending time doing minigames is roughly equal in terms of work/boredom. Some like one but not the other, sometimes it depends on your mood. There's nothing wrong with having more options, even if you (or I) don't want/plan to pursue them as eagerly as what's already here. In the end it makes no difference between not having a rare 'cause you didn't win a raffle or 'cause you don't want to do [other thing]. You don't have it, aww drat, but life goes on. At least in this case, it's your own decision.