Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) It really bugs me Christmas and Valentine holidays (exept for Hollies who have both genders - bless on them) cannot breed within their own breed - so like it should work for living beings that need two individuals to reproduce. - Ribbon Dancer x Ribbon Dancer giving a Ribbon Dancer = the natural way to breed a creature of species that has a gender (female in this case). Why should Holidays be refused to breed like it is for all species that need a mate to reproduce? How on earth did they appear in the first place? They're not hybrids... Well, the simpliest idea would be to make all of these breeds having both genders. But it's obvious there would be some people who would nag 'but it would ruin their uniqueness to make them have both genders like all the rest' etc. Okay, besides they're still obtainable only one week a year (unique trait) let's not argue about the fact all other dragons gender male or female, not just one of these. Then here is an idea on how to keep them unique without making them gender male and female but still enabling them to breed true, to breed within their own breed. How about Christmas and Valentine holidays having this special trait: being all(exept for Hollies) hermaphrodites? Meaning each Christmas and Valentine individual can breed both as male and female (e.g. snails)? There could be a few possibilities for this. 1. Always a hermaphrodite Meaning all of now single-sex holidays become hermaphrodites H, can breed with their own breed, all other holidays and all regular dragons F or M. Breeding possibilities: H+H H+M H+F 2. A Hermaphrodite to all other Hermaphrodites Meaning all now single-sex holidays become either male-herm Hy (those who are now male-only breeds) or female-herm Hx (those who are now female-only breeds), can breed with their own breed and all other holidays, while they're still working only as male Hy(M) or female Hx(F) respectively when breeding with all regular dragons. Breeding possibilities: H0+H0 (0 means same breed) Hx+Hy,Hx+Hx,Hy+Hy Hx(F)+M F+Hy(M) 3. A Hermaphrodite to its own breed only (least invasive to the current gameplay, would affect breeding within own breed only) Meaning all now single-sex holidays become either male-herm Hy (those who are now male-only breeds) or female-herm Hx (those who are now female-only breeds) but can only breed with their own breed, to all other holidays and regular dragons they work only as either male or female respectively. Allows normal, natural breeding of any species that need a mate to reproduce for all holidays. Breeding possibilities: H0+H0 (the only Herm breeding is within the same breed) Hx(F)+Hy(M) (works as Male-Female breeding) Hx(F)+M F+Hy(M) !NEW! 4. Hermaphrodite to all but only until it's bred (based on this) Meaning all of now single-sex holidays become hermaphrodites H, can breed with their own breed, all other holidays and all regular dragons F or M BUT once bred they loose their hermaphroditism and get the opposite gender of their mate permanently. Breeding possibilities: H0+H0 -> both herms become opposite genders to each other - one becomes male, other female - it is random which becomes which (allows strict monogamy) (if there are male/female-herms) Hx(F)+Hy(M) -> Hx(F) becomes F, Hy(M) becomes M (if there are equal herms only)H+H -> both herms become opposite genders to each other - one becomes male, other female - it is random which becomes which (allows strict monogamy) H+M -> H becomes F H+F ->H becomes M - This doesn't affect the current lineages but allows each holiday breed to breed within its own breed (same breed parents and offspring) 4. could also have variants: 5. hermaphrodite to other Hermaphrodites only (with permament gendering) or 6. Hermaphrodite to its own breed only(with permanent gendering). lineages (what determines which partner goes on top and which on bottom; to show all options I'm considering mainly the full herms here): *within their own breed (H0+H0): -the one which was picked to breed first (to breed we must visit the action page of one of the mates, this is the one which shows on top in the lineage, the one we pick from the available mates list would show on the bottom of the lineage) -the one which matured sooner than the other would go on top of the lineage -the one which coded sooner in the alphabet shows on top (A on top of B, 0 on top of A, A on top of A) -random by each breeding (once the egg is bred, its lineage doesn't change) - better ideas? *with all other holidays the same as 'within their own breed + - by species release date e.g. 2007 on top to 2008 etc. - based on which herm is Hx or Hy if possible *with all regular dragons: -the holiday appears as the opposite gender to the partner The mechanics could work for any future hermaphrodite dragon species! I've seen some voices for creating hermaphrodite breeds, so why not try to discuss the mechanics here? Edit: Who even came up with an idea of Xgender only dragons first of all? it's like a random idea taken completely out of the blue... I'm pretty sure if Holidays nor any other dragons on DA never worked like that and now someone would make a suggestion to create some type of dragons male/female-only for the first time, the idea would get smashed with anti-support by the players or at least the majority... Perhaps you're hating just because the suggestion is simply about CHANGING ANTHING? Edited December 30, 2014 by Aniusia483 Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 No support. I really like the fact that each Holiday has only one species. There ARE real life species out there which do not need to mate with their own species to reproduce. Look up Amazon Mollies. They can breed with any live bearer male and still produce amazon mollies. And all of them are all strictly female. Cheers! C4. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 If people want hermaphrodite dragons, someone had better create some. Till then - no - and especially not for holidays. Imagine the confusion with lineages. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 No support. I really like the fact that each Holiday has only one species. There ARE real life species out there which do not need to mate with their own species to reproduce. Look up Amazon Mollies. They can breed with any live bearer male and still produce amazon mollies. And all of them are all strictly female. Cheers! C4. O.O Wow! A bit off topic but the bit about the Mollies is sort of interesting. As for the topic itself, I don't feel THAT strongly about it as I tend to like to match my holidays up with other breeds for their mates anyway... like my CB Snow Angel with my CB Male Gold. Very pretty. If TJ decided to implement something like this I wouldn't be too fussed, it would give me more breeding options for them BUT I have to honestly say that it isn't a change I am dieing to see. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) This sounds interesting, but no. We're only limited to two CB dragons per year for Valentine's and Christmas holidays. I'd rather not cut down on the breeding pool just to be able to get a totally purebred holiday out of the deal. I'd rather be able to possibly breed 8 eggs from two holiday dragons with mates of the opposite sex than just 4 eggs from two (same sex) holiday dragons being bred with each other. If someone wants to make a dimorphic Valentine or Christmas release with a male and a female in the future, all the power to them. Edit: Woops. Realized they can breed with other "hermaphrodites". Edited December 30, 2014 by Jazeki Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 If people want hermaphrodite dragons, someone had better create some. Till then - no - and especially not for holidays. Imagine the confusion with lineages. No matter if hermaphrodites were holidays or other species the lineages would work the same for both types of hermaphrodites. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) No support. I really like the fact that each Holiday has only one species. There ARE real life species out there which do not need to mate with their own species to reproduce. Look up Amazon Mollies. They can breed with any live bearer male and still produce amazon mollies. And all of them are all strictly female. Cheers! C4. You mean sexes/genders, not species I think... And they woudl still have one: hermaphrodite. About that animal - note they are FEMALES, and around a half of holidays are MALE only... They have no excuse to reproduce the way they do now I'm afraid... "gynogenetic species are all female" Edited December 30, 2014 by Aniusia483 Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) I know that one of your scroll goals is to have male and female of each dragon, but I think that holiday dragons (Valentine and Christmas) have the unique BREEDABLE gender as specific trait and changing it now would create a lot of problems with lineages, and general confusion. I would suggest to introduce the "missing" male/female of each holiday dragon as unbreedable, so they won't interfere into the gameplay. For example if you want male Ribbon Dancer you should ask to the spriter and TJ to introduce it in cave. If it's accepted all ribbon dancer eggs become avaliable to be influenced for the gender they're missing (male). So you could influence a Ribbon Dancer egg only as male. It's important to say that it would always gender as female by default if yu don't "force" it with an influence BSA. This would create a sterile male ribbon dancer, that wouldn't be able to breed when it grows up and would stay on your scroll just for aesthetic reasons. The symbol ♂ would be shown, but they wouldn't have the breed action available. I don't know if a new sprite should be required, it's up to the spriter, I suppose. This could be "explained" because these rare breeds usually don't show themselves very often and you might think that they live alone, in remote places with others of their kind for the most part of the year. This has affected some breeds, making a gender weaker than the other. For example female Ribbon Dancer appeared to be more fertile than males of their kind, so a natural selection has occurred, making all Ribbon Dancer eggs female by default. It's important to say that breeding mechanics in DC are quite strange and my suggestion doesn't interfere with them. In DC every egg breeded in your scroll could be the mother's breed OR the father's breed and that's quite impossible in real word. It's like to say that if you mix a pure Dalmatian with a pure Golden Retriver you can ONLY obtain a Pure Dalmatian or a Pure Golden Retriver. Hybrids are quite rare in DC, what does really matter it's the breed of only ONE of the parents. It makes sense to me that some isolated species has been selected to pass on their genetic makeup through a single genre, making the other one infertile. Edited December 30, 2014 by Naruhina_94 Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) Just pointing out that there is a finished concept for a hermaphroditic dragon and it does not work as these are suggested. Also, holiday x holiday pairings do exist now and produce both holiday species. For example, I bred a wrapping wing with a snow angel and got both types of holiday dragons. Edited December 30, 2014 by Jazeki Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 Just pointing out that there is a finished concept for a hermaphroditic dragon and it does not work as these are suggested. Also, holiday x holiday pairings do exist now and produce both holiday species. So, if person bred a Snow Angel toa Wrapping Wing , for example... The result would be both Snow Angel and Wrapping Wing eggies? Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) Just pointing out that there is a finished concept for a hermaphroditic dragon and it does not work as these are suggested. gonna add this mechanics Edited December 30, 2014 by Aniusia483 Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 I'd much prefer Naruhina's idea of having infertile dragons of the opposite sex if this was implemented, but I really don't think that this suggestion is something that will truly benefit holiday breeding. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) I'd much prefer Naruhina's idea of having infertile dragons of the opposite sex if this was implemented, but I really don't think that this suggestion is something that will truly benefit holiday breeding. Actually I could as well have homo 'pairs' sorted... the thing is all about they cannot breed with each other. Nothing would change with implementing of unfertime males... That idea wouldn't help me as all my families must be of relatives... so the adult couple of a given anyhow fertile breed must be parents of the 3 frozens. I already tried to pair those holidays but it looks poor... (for GoNs I temporarily try to implement lost lineage info meaning that GoNs could breed in GoN world and had families there - but it's a nightmare to describe dragons on DC:/) I could be fine if the forced opposite gender would be fertile and only within its own breed but the offspring would automatically die upon leaving the scroll or maturing... So noone else can be influenced by my doings to my dragons but I still can have frozens related to parents who are both of the same species. Whatever... wouldn't affect anyone besides me an anyone who'd use this... Or if the forced opposites would be fertile but there woudl be a limit of 2 per scroll (e.g. 2 male Ribbon Dancers per scroll, 2 female Sweetlings per scroll etc.) Edited December 30, 2014 by Aniusia483 Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 So, if person bred a Snow Angel toa Wrapping Wing , for example... The result would be both Snow Angel and Wrapping Wing eggies? Yes. It seems that, since this year, mixed clutches are indeed possible. In previous years, it was always one or the other breed breeding true. 2013, it was the father's breed that was dominant. In 2012, it was the mother's breed. At least for Christmas dragons. I think there was a similar mechanic for Valentines, too. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 While I sympathize with the sentiment, I really don't think it makes sense to go and retroactively make a whole bunch of breeds hermaphrodites, especially when all the breeds are so different. Something that might be interesting, though, is if after the initial release breeds could be found in both genders (like Hollies)... Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 Yes. It seems that, since this year, mixed clutches are indeed possible. In previous years, it was always one or the other breed breeding true. 2013, it was the father's breed that was dominant. In 2012, it was the mother's breed. At least for Christmas dragons. I think there was a similar mechanic for Valentines, too. I got several mixed clutches this year. I was quite startled. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) While I sympathize with the sentiment, I really don't think it makes sense to go and retroactively make a whole bunch of breeds hermaphrodites, especially when all the breeds are so different. Something that might be interesting, though, is if after the initial release breeds could be found in both genders (like Hollies)... To me this makes more sense and would solve the OP's problem just as well. I would think either solution would need spriter approval. I have never really understood why Hollies could be both genders and no other holiday dragon could. I am really neutral on the whole idea, though, as I am quite happy building lineages with things as they are. Edited December 30, 2014 by purplehaze Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) Something that might be interesting, though, is if after the initial release breeds could be found in both genders (like Hollies)... I don't mind if they received the other gender next year after release as long as I could breed two same breed Holidays and get this breed's offspring of them... no PB 2nd gens but at least 3rd gen stairsteps. Edited December 30, 2014 by Aniusia483 Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 As a dragon spriter, I do not support this idea at all. The solstice dragons were always meant to be female, and female is how I would like them to stay. In my opinion, this seems like a very narrowly tailored suggestion meant to facilitate a very uncommon scroll completion goal, rather than having the lore of each individual affected dragon in mind. Gender and breeding group restrictions exist to add a new dimension to lineage building, and as a rule I think that's absolutely a good thing. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 Good lord no. Retroactively changing the lore and gender of tons of dragons stretching back six years? Turning reptiles into hermaphrodites (these aren't snails, seriously)? All for the sake of a very specific scroll goal? No support, at all. Anti-support even. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 I don't have strong feelings one way or the other. I don't oppose it, and it certainly wouldn't bother me if it weren't implemented, but I don't really feel that there is a strong need for it, either. ...I'm so helpful, aren't I? Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 Good lord no. Retroactively changing the lore and gender of tons of dragons stretching back six years? Turning reptiles into hermaphrodites (these aren't snails, seriously)? All for the sake of a very specific scroll goal? No support, at all. Anti-support even. ^ this Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) As a dragon spriter, I do not support this idea at all. The solstice dragons were always meant to be female, and female is how I would like them to stay. In my opinion, this seems like a very narrowly tailored suggestion meant to facilitate a very uncommon scroll completion goal, rather than having the lore of each individual affected dragon in mind. Gender and breeding group restrictions exist to add a new dimension to lineage building, and as a rule I think that's absolutely a good thing. Solistices look quite masculine with the hugest antlers of the entire game to be honest^^; I never could get it why they are the FEMALE only breed, not MALE only^^; (well, I paired mine to a Yolebuck because of 'both have antlers' but they actually look riddiculus together) they would look cool if pink version was female and blue version was male... *.* Uncommon or strange goal? 5 per breed mostly for sprite and gender collecting? MF adults, MF S2 and S1? That was the most obvious goal to me, right after 1 individual per breed and 3 stages per breed.. families of 5 per preed look well. And all I added to this is strict monogamy of all same-breed pairs... placed on a neat looking scroll that contains no other things messing it up. I'm starting to believe this game is ANY GOAL (other than a boring: random dragons in 3 stages per breed -GoN limit of 3, not 5) UNfriendly... Who even came up with an idea of Xgender only dragons first of all??? Be it TJ himself maybe, but it's like a random idea taken completely out of the blue... why on Earth this even exists? I'm pretty sure if Holidays nor any other dragons on DA never worked like that and now someone would make a suggestion to create some type of dragons male/female-only for the first time, the idea would get smashed with anti-support by the players or at least the majority... Edited December 30, 2014 by Aniusia483 Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 Solistices look quite masculine with the hugest antlers of the entire game to be honest^^; I never could get it why they are the FEMALE only breed, not MALE only^^; (well, I paired mine to a Yolebuck because of 'both have antlers' but they actually look riddiculus together) they would look cool if pink version was female and blue version was male... *.* I think that is a little discourteous to Odeen, and actually I think they look magnificently female. If you think they look ridiculous with Yulebucks - pair them with something else next time. Why xgender dragons - why not ? If you want a hermaphrodite - create one, don't try and force hermaphroditism on existing breeds - especially when you already know a spriter is against it for one of the breeds you want to change. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 30, 2014 I think that is a little discourteous to Odeen, and actually I think they look magnificently female. This. AND if I recall, in species like Reindeer, for example, both males and females have antlers. Share this post Link to post
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