Hermaphrodites

[Lurhstaap]

I just have to point out that we're not dealing with natural animals here, but magical fantasy animals. Why exactly should magical fantasy animals have to conform to reality in all respects, or even most?

[Fuzzbucket]

I just have to point out that we're not dealing with natural animals here, but magical fantasy animals. Why exactly should magical fantasy animals have to conform to reality in all respects, or even most?

Sure. I would be fine with a NEW hermaphroditic breed - but not with changing an existing one that people have based lineages on and the rest.

[CNR4806]

Once again, the OP is trying to enforce her agenda and her impossible scroll goal upon the site, rather than trying to adapt to the site.

 

I speak of this as both her forum registration date and a quick glance at her scroll's dragons indicate that she joined the site between early to mid 2013, which is 4 and a half years after the first single-gender holiday release (Yulebuck, 2008 Christmas). Her scroll goal (1M+1F adults, 1M+1F+1U hatchlings) was not interrupted by an one-gender release; it was impossible from the very moment she set them.

 

 

I'm against this proposed change, not only on the ground that I don't find the idea fitting for the game, but also on the ground that this suggestion is not an attempt at improving the game to begin with, just a shallow attempt by the OP to twist the game to suit her personal agenda.

 

 

I would argue that dragons which breed with random mates instead of from love are so sentient...

I treat mine as if they were via pairing them in stroct monogamy, but when I look at the descriptions they are very animalistic and primitive in the way they work...

 

Anyway, this is offtopic.

 

This is not off-topic. The entire reason that this thread exists is because of what you just said here. It is your entire motive of even bothering to suggest this.

 

I would love to judge this suggstion in good faith, but you're making it too obvious that it is just part of your personal agenda.

[Syphoneira]

I just have to point out that we're not dealing with natural animals here, but magical fantasy animals. Why exactly should magical fantasy animals have to conform to reality in all respects, or even most?

 

 

 

Hi, Lurhstaap,

 

you raise a very good point.

 

The thing is that what we're actually conforming to are the concepts existing in this particular magical fantasy world.

 

The conceptors/spriters defined the means by which their magical fantasy creations live and reproduce and TJ created the rules which operate his magical fantasy world, in the same manner in which science fiction/fantasy authors must adhere to those they've established for the worlds and societies they create which entertain us so much.

 

There are doubtless other games in which radical changes to fundamental principles might well work, although most likely in single-player games designed for this sort of personal flexibility.

 

However here, although a suggested specific hermaphrodite dragon might well be accepted for Release - if up to to TJ's standards and fitting into his concept forming this fantasy medieval setting - there is a huge difference between this and someone demanding that the creations of multiple others be altered to suit personal goals which are not possible to achieve in this particular game/world or with these particular sprites.

 

 

If we were attending a concert with an established band playing their own popular songs and it was demanded by an audience member that the band from then on adopted a completely different musical style than that which everyone came to hear, because she only really liked that different music, would this be considered reasonable?

 

Would the artists be under any obligation to alter their creations to suit that person, and their fans - the rest of us - to alter our musical taste and have our personal music collections altered as well?

 

 

Art is the concrete form of the artist's personal expression, and even non-artistic people do know what they like - we're here because, while we all probably have issues we'd like addressed, we like this particular game.

 

If TJ doesn't keep the general flavour specific to DC, it will no longer be the same game, either to him, or to those who have been here over the long term, despite multiple long-running issues we did not always, to say the least, find enjoyable. (Don't even want to think about past things like severe chronic lag, with the Cave actually inaccessible for some time, [edit: meaning that we couldn't even see our dragons,] chronic AP Cave-Blocking, and others now no longer - thank goodness and TJ! - game-destroying, chronic realities.)

 

And if TJ were to chronically over-ride the spriters and the great bulk of players, disrupting breeding mechanics, lineages and/or other basics to suit a small group of players over mass objections, pandemonium would likely rapidly occur.

 

Would this be really be worth-while, even to the OP?

Edited January 3, 2015 by Syphoneira

[ShorahNagi]

For Holiday/Valentine Breeds = No, not for new ones OR for retroactively altering old ones.

 

To me, the Holiday/Valentine dragons are special and are meant to be unique. Having them be just one gender helps make them unique.

 

Besides - there are plenty of different lineages one can do with the breeds, and thanks to the removal of rare x rare breeding...players can now breed Holiday/Valentine Dragons together.

 

Plus - I feel there are enough Male and Female Holiday dragons where one could *in their own head canon of sorts* consider them to be a species that displays extreme cases of dimorphism [For example; the Wrapping Wings (M) as the counterpart to Snow Angels (F), Yulebucks (M) as a counterpart to Solstice (F), and even the Arsani (F) to the Radiant Angel (M)]

 

However, I would have no issues if this was added for a new non-Holiday breed (My brain is imagining a Snail Dragon - no gender, but able to breed with other Snails and/or regular dragons). Though if this was added, I would only like to see it on a new breed - and have no alterations done to current species who have no gender (Dino, Cheese, and Paper*).

 

To sum it up:

 

Hermaphrodite Holidays = No

Hermaphrodite new breed = Yes

Hermaphrodite alterations to other one gender/no gender dragons = No

 

*Of course, there are papers out there who do have genders, but this logically wouldn't affect themn

[AnanoKimi]

 

 

Hi, Lurhstaap,

 

you raise a very good point.

 

The thing is that what we're actually conforming to are the concepts existing in this particular magical fantasy world.

 

The conceptors/spriters defined the means by which their magical fantasy creations live and reproduce and TJ created the rules which operate his magical fantasy world, in the same manner in which science fiction/fantasy authors must adhere to those they've established for the worlds and societies they create which entertain us so much.

 

There are doubtless other games in which radical changes to fundamental principles might well work, although most likely in single-player games designed for this sort of personal flexibility.

 

However here, although a suggested specific hermaphrodite dragon might well be accepted for Release - if up to to TJ's standards and fitting into his concept forming this fantasy medieval setting - there is a huge difference between this and someone demanding that the creations of multiple others be altered to suit personal goals which are not possible to achieve in this particular game/world or with these particular sprites.

 

 

If we were attending a concert with an established band playing their own popular songs and it was demanded by an audience member that the band from then on adopted a completely different musical style than that which everyone came to hear, because she only really liked that different music, would this be considered reasonable?

 

Would the artists be under any obligation to alter their creations to suit that person, and their fans - the rest of us - to alter our musical taste and have our personal music collections altered as well?

 

 

Art is the concrete form of the artist's personal expression, and even non-artistic people do know what they like - we're here because, while we all probably have issues we'd like addressed, we like this particular game.

 

If TJ doesn't keep the general flavour specific to DC, it will no longer be the same game, either to him, or to those who have been here over the long term, despite multiple long-running issues we did not always, to say the least, find enjoyable. (Don't even want to think about past things like severe chronic lag, with the Cave actually inaccessible for some time, [edit: meaning that we couldn't even see our dragons,] chronic AP Cave-Blocking, and others now no longer - thank goodness and TJ! - game-destroying, chronic realities.)

 

And if TJ were to chronically over-ride the spriters and the great bulk of players, disrupting breeding mechanics, lineages and/or other basics to suit a small group of players over mass objections, pandemonium would likely rapidly occur.

 

Would this be really be worth-while, even to the OP?

This, this, all of this, just so much this. This is so well written I just... there's no better way to say this other than how Syphoneira has already worded it.

 

Yes it can be a little frustrating that you cannot make purebreds of the holiday breeds you like but it is not fair to not just alter the vision of the artists, the conceptions, and TJ just for a minorities needs. Hell even if it was a majority thing, its not right.

 

That's like if I made paintings for a public show in acrylic, and suddenly a crowd of people stated my paintings would look better in water color and having someone else recopy and rip my work in a different way. Taking my ideas, my concepts, my vision, and just changing it before my eyes. My work, my effort, my time, just stripped away and changed for some random people's desire. That is not how this works. Even if the entirety of this site wanted it, its disrespectful to the people who took the time to come up with the concept, propose it, create it, give it life and a story, and then share it with so many of us. on top of that, from the time I've been playing, the alternating and genders of every new holiday breed almost feels like a tradition, something that is part of DC. Taking that away just doesn't feel right.

[Syphoneira]

I would just like to make sure that it's understood that I was speaking my thoughts regarding various distinctions on an important point which Lurhstaap - who is not the OP requesting this - brought up, and that there is no confusion in this area.

 

 

[Laura-Borealis]

I would support a future holiday dragon being hermaphroditic, but not a retroactive change to the present ones.

[Fuzzbucket]

Once again, the OP is trying to enforce her agenda and her impossible scroll goal upon the site, rather than trying to adapt to the site.

We probably all have impossible scroll goals. My wish for CB OPs and past holidays, for a second CB Sweetling (because I had no idea what I was doing when I got my first); for 2 gen whites from spriters' alts from spriters who have made it clear that they may NOT be asked for eggs... (as is their absolute right.)

Her scroll goal (1M+1F adults, 1M+1F+1U hatchlings) was not interrupted by an one-gender release; it was impossible from the very moment she set them.

As was mine - I joined too late for so many holidays and for OPs.

I would love to judge this suggestion in good faith

I don't support this suggestion as it stands - but I'd like to hear your reasoning against the actual idea, rather than against someone else's perceived agenda.

It would be interesting to get more views of hermaphroditic dragons in general. I'd quite like to see some - as long as they were new dragons. Lineage possibilities would be extraordinary.

[CNR4806]

We probably all have impossible scroll goals. My wish for CB OPs and past holidays, for a second CB Sweetling (because I had no idea what I was doing when I got my first); for 2 gen whites from spriters' alts from spriters who have made it clear that they may NOT be asked for eggs... (as is their absolute right.)

So, are you here making threads in S/R demanding the entire site bend over to suit your personal needs, not even pretending it's for the good of the site, calling everyone voicing opposition to it (including the spriters and conceptors of the breeds involved) anti-change haters and denoucing all of their concerns over the suggestion as anti-change?

 

I don't support this suggestion as it stands - but I'd like to hear your reasoning against the actual idea, rather than against someone else's perceived agenda.

It would be interesting to get more views of hermaphroditic dragons in general. I'd quite like to see some - as long as they were new dragons. Lineage possibilities would be extraordinary.

I couldn't care less if any future dragons are hermaphroditic, but twisting existing breeds to fit someone's own headcanon is a no-no, especially when the spriters/conceptors have expressed clear opinion that this is against the concept of their breeds.

Edited January 3, 2015 by CNR4806

[Fuzzbucket]

So, are you here making threads in S/R demanding the entire site bend over to suit your personal needs, not even pretending it's for the good of the site, calling everyone voicing opposition to it (including the spriters and conceptors of the breeds involved) anti-change haters and denoucing all of their concerns over the suggestion as anti-change?

I've been called out for being pushy about what I WANT FOR ME MANY times actually

 

Especially in the matter of OPs.

 

But I'm more often called out for being (perceived as, if you who PMd me are watching !) totally anti-change.... being TOTALLY resistant to anything anyone else suggests and so on. I've been warned for it... So I'm actually trying to be more receptive - even to suggestions which totally turn me off.

[KuroYukia]

So, if person bred a Snow Angel toa Wrapping Wing , for example...

 

The result would be both Snow Angel and Wrapping Wing eggies?

Know this is probably answered but yep. I bred my wrapping wings and my other christmas cb and got 2 and 2. My fiancee bred his and got 2 and 1. Another gave me 3 and 1. They tend to breed mixed eggys most of the time.

[olympe]

^ Which is new. Up until last year, we only had one kind of egg in mixed holiday clutches all over the site. In 2013, each and every Winter Magi x Ribbon Dancer pairing produced Winter Magi only, afaik.

[AnanoKimi]

I would just like to make sure that it's understood that I was speaking my thoughts regarding various distinctions on an important point which Lurhstaap - who is not the OP requesting this - brought up, and that there is no confusion in this area.

No confusion at all from my part. I was mostly adding to it in a way that OP could understand using what you (Syphneira) and Lurhstaap said.

 

 

OP needs to understand that there are some goals which are impossible and as one user said, they set very similar goals but quickly understood that in a game with certain rules, traditions, and its own story/world, there will be times that parts of your goals will have to be sacrificed.

 

Can't have M & F of every single breed, too bad. That is how this game works, that is how those dragons were envisioned, and that is a tradition that will remain in this site. If someone decides they want to make their holiday M&F available then power to them, but if a holiday is envisioned as a x gender only dragon, we kinda have to suck it up. It is not our place to force a creator to change their idea, their creation, their vision to fit our needs.

 

If a separate dragon is created to be a hermaphrodite then that's them. Do not try to force a site, and the creators/conceptors of certain dragons change what they worked hard to create just for your selfish needs... and if OP doesn't like this fact then I am sorry but there are also plenty of other collection games she can try out that may better suit her needs and possibly bend at her beck and call. That of if the rules of this site seem so irrational, OP can consider making their own site and have t exactly the way she wants it.

[Syphoneira]

No confusion at all from my part. I was mostly adding to it in a way that OP could understand using what you (Syphneira) and Lurhstaap said.

 

 

OP needs to understand that there are some goals which are impossible and as one user said, they set very similar goals but quickly understood that in a game with certain rules, traditions, and its own story/world, there will be times that parts of your goals will have to be sacrificed.

 

Can't have M & F of every single breed, too bad. That is how this game works, that is how those dragons were envisioned, and that is a tradition that will remain in this site. If someone decides they want to make their holiday M&F available then power to them, but if a holiday is envisioned as a x gender only dragon, we kinda have to suck it up. It is not our place to force a creator to change their idea, their creation, their vision to fit our needs.

 

If a separate dragon is created to be a hermaphrodite then that's them. Do not try to force a site, and the creators/conceptors of certain dragons change what they worked hard to create just for your selfish needs... and if OP doesn't like this fact then I am sorry but there are also plenty of other collection games she can try out that may better suit her needs and possibly bend at her beck and call. That of if the rules of this site seem so irrational, OP can consider making their own site and have t exactly the way she wants it.

 

 

 

Lol, sorry, I knew that you knew, just thought that this being disconnected from the previous page might cause confusion among those who hadn't read back that far, perhaps with people assuming that Lurhstaap had made the suggestion when she'd merely introduced an important point that I'd thought should be addressed.

[Banyanpan]

I'd really like to see a hemaphrodite dragon in the future, but I really don't want it to be applied to breeds that are already in the cave. And personally I'd rather see it on a normal dragon, not a holiday. But that's just me.

I don't see anything wrong with holidays being one gender or the other, mixed breeding is so common it hardly makes a difference you can't purebreed a few dragons. Kind of like the GoN and (CB) prize dragons.. Not all of them can be purebred. It's just how that breed works.

Edited January 3, 2015 by alupe99a

[Sir Barton]

We probably all have impossible scroll goals. My wish for CB OPs and past holidays, for a second CB Sweetling (because I had no idea what I was doing when I got my first); for 2 gen whites from spriters' alts from spriters who have made it clear that they may NOT be asked for eggs... (as is their absolute right.)

 

As was mine - I joined too late for so many holidays and for OPs.

I don't support this suggestion as it stands - but I'd like to hear your reasoning against the actual idea, rather than against someone else's perceived agenda.

It would be interesting to get more views of hermaphroditic dragons in general. I'd quite like to see some - as long as they were new dragons. Lineage possibilities would be extraordinary.

Considering that the Erselik had a decent amount of support and made it to the completed list, I think a hermaphrodic dragon is generally accepted. In this ones case, the gender becomes locked based on the first breeding. Basically figures as a case of influencing an adult. If the gender continued to flip flop, I think you would end up with a lineage nightmare if you're trying to avoid inbreeding. You would have a dragon that could end up being grandma and grandpa to one of your babies.

 

Just my take.

 

As far as the actual suggestion of changing the current species, I'm opposed because it goes against the original concepts of the artists.

[Fuzzbucket]

Considering that the Erselik had a decent amount of support and made it to the completed list, I think a hermaphroditic dragon is generally accepted. In this ones case, the gender becomes locked based on the first breeding. Basically figures as a case of influencing an adult. If the gender continued to flip flop, I think you would end up with a lineage nightmare if you're trying to avoid inbreeding. You would have a dragon that could end up being grandma and grandpa to one of your babies.

Well, no - I don't think so - you'd just have enough that you didn't use the same dragon twice to breed in the same line. (Not that I mind inbreeding, as you know !)

 

I must go and look at the Erselik; I'd heard of one, but didn't know what name I was looking for - or that it was on the competed list (somewhere I rarely visit ! !)

ETA Oh. No - as you say - with this one, that wouldn't happen:

They lose a sex after breeding to prevent logic gaps. I feel like it would be odd to see one dragon labelled as a father of one child and mother of another. Also, they would, in this kind of hermaphroditism, be somewhere between bidirectional sex-changing sequential hermaphrodites, and simultaneous hermaphrodites.

Not, I think, a solution for the needs of the OP here.

Edited January 3, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[Wokenulape]

Its worth mentioning there are multiple hermaphroditic reptile species.

This is very very true.

[Fuzzbucket]

This is very very true.

Actually no it isn't

 

There are none. If you're referring to parthenogenesis, then those are females that essentially produce clones. They don't have male chromosomes or any of the bits I'm not sure if I can mention here. You might be thinking of sequential hermaphroditism, which only occurs among vertebrates in fish, but which is also not like the suggestion here. Those are only one at a time, never both. I think that's sorta what those Erseliks work like. True hermaphrodism doesn't occur at all in vertebrata outside of a very small number of fish, definitely not in reptiles.

[Starscream]

I will also say no to the concept of hermaphrodites.

 

Unless TJ has a plan somewhere to include them, I don't think they would work.

 

In my own thoughts, I often thought the unbreedables were hermaphrodites and could not reproduce as a result of it. When I worked on a farm, we occasionally had hermaphrodite livestock. These animals were unable to reproduce because - if I recall correctly - conflicting hormones. The animal was born with both male and female "features".

[Wokenulape]

Actually no it isn't

 

Oh, I was referring to Parthogenesis and the clones it creates.

 

That would be a neat breeding idea, even if its not strictly hermaphroditic.

[Fuzzbucket]

I will also say no to the concept of hermaphrodites.

 

Unless TJ has a plan somewhere to include them, I don't think they would work.

 

In my own thoughts, I often thought the unbreedables were hermaphrodites and could not reproduce as a result of it. When I worked on a farm, we occasionally had hermaphrodite livestock. These animals were unable to reproduce because - if I recall correctly - conflicting hormones. The animal was born with both male and female "features".

Chickens are all GIRLS...

[Sir Barton]

Chickens are all GIRLS...

I still think there's one really exhausted rooster hiding behind a rock somewhere in the cave.

[WraithZephyr]

As far as parthenogenesis goes for reptiles.. it is a myth to say that you only get female offspring.

 

Parthenogensis commonly produces full clone females or half-clone females. But depending on the species chromosome types.. parthenogenesis can sometimes result in non-clones that are all male offspring or mixed genders. One would have to have genetic testing done on the animals to determine if they are partho produced or sexually produced.