Unfreezing

[Fuzzbucket]

I kind of also see Pedrinos point.

Please do explain. I have yet to even GET his point for anything other than abusing it all. Who would ever want or need to freeze so much that they couldn't wait a good long while to unfreeze.

[silver_tiger]

I'm still confused about what Perdino is getting at, myself, since he seems to be trying to get more unfreezes. Your argument, Anano, seems to be for less or none at all. Am I missing something?

[AnanoKimi]

I meant I saw his "I don't want a suggestion that only benefits a specific group" point. Otherwise I'm just as lost guys.

[olympe]

I can understand an "against unfreezing" stand (and to some point, agree with it), with the reasoning that people knew it was permanent and should have checked (in case of "wrong hatchi") what they froze in the first place. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I can understand it.

 

I can understand a "pro unfreezing" stand with strict limits to prevent/minimize abuse, and do agree with it. (I know this horse has been beaten to death and back again. Let's not beat it 'til infinity, much less beyond.) I'd most certainly still start using the feature to get a couple of extra holidays, but not many (due to the restrictions). Of course, this will "benefit" everyone willing to abuse the feature. It will also benefit older players who froze the then unbreedable CB pumpkins/vampires (Bite only became a thing when the pumpkins came out) or other CB holidays or retired breeds, and these people will have to exchange potential extra holidays for the things they absolutely need to unfreeze. It will also benefit people who deeply regret having frozen some hatchling or other, and for various reasons.

 

I can also understand a "let's have unlimited unfreezing, since freezing is already limited in itself" stand, and know for a fact that players will abuse the feature. I would, too, after all, it wouldn't be breaking any rules. But I don't like the effects it may have. I most certainly don't agree with this view.

 

Also, regarding useful vs. useless: I know I've used Earthquake once or maybe twice - with fatal or no results. I don't use it any more. (Yes, it used to have a use. I remember people clearing the AP with EQ. I also remember that one scroll that had countless CB Halloween eggs broken on their scroll, probably trying to hatch them faster, for EQ kills didn't count towards your limits back then.) I also used Expunge, for I got to regret the zombies I had on my scroll. I used Splash a good 500 times (hoping to find another badge), and hardly anybody uses Summon successfully for more than three times. That doesn't mean that these BSAs don't have a use, and should not have been implemented.

Edited November 22, 2015 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

and hardly anybody uses Summon successfully for more than three times.

Well, that's because you can't....

[olympe]

Well, that's because you can't....

Actually, you can. If you release your GoN, you should be able to summon anew. Or so I've heard from someone who did just that. I don't think it'll work with the new kill mechanics, though.

[Fuzzbucket]

Actually, you can. If you release your GoN, you should be able to summon anew. Or so I've heard from someone who did just that. I don't think it'll work with the new kill mechanics, though.

Oh. It had never occurred to me that anyone would have a need to do that....

[AnanoKimi]

Again though, its only to benefit the plaers old enough to get any gain from it. That's where I made the point that I understood where pedrino was coming from with the whole "I don't want a feature that only benefits a specific group" thing. Really outside of that, there is no real need for unfreezing. Most everything else is easily replaceable.

 

If it take a whole year to get to unfreezing an easily replaceable mistake, then whats the point of it? You have a better chance trading or hunting for something to replace it than waiting a whole year. If the arguments are "Well what if its a nice code" then dude Kudos to you for having so much dedication to a set of jumbled up letters and numbers that you decided to wait a whole year for something you could have replaced in weeks.

 

Honestly this feature seems to me more like something that should be left as an Admin reversal upon request kind of thing rather than an actual in game feature. If the only need for this is frozen CB holidays, Frozen Prizes, and Frozen retireds, then other than whatever is left of users from that time that still need this should just have some form of list where they apply each dragon to be unfrozen.

 

The reason I kept saying a year was too long was for the argument of replaceable dragons. Even if the code is nice a whole year just to unfreeze that gold or silver or xeno, you have a better chance of finding a nicer code in that year of waiting. In that year you could have probably replaced that frozen mistake 10 times over. 6 months is still long but its a bit less considering how easy it is to replace most dragons at this point.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

It isn't just to benefit old players. People can regret freezing:

 

- perfect word codes

- dragons with pretty lines found in the AP; breeder unknown

- low gen metals

- once common dragons that later became rare (ex: almandine pyralspites)

- dragons you traded for, accidentally froze, and breeder won't replace

 

These are all cases that would either probably take more than a year to replace or are completely irreplaceable. Just because you wouldn't personally care about some of those cases doesn't mean they don't matter to others. There are uses for this feature that extend throughout the entire user base, older and newer.

 

And, yes, old players will obviously have a bit more than the average player to gain from this, but if we were going to shut down every suggestion based on oh no the horror older players will like it a lot, we should probably get rid of trophy increased scroll limits while we're at it :/

[olympe]

Not to mention pretty and/or rare lines (holly x white checker that just might be a perfect mate for a holly you caught/traded for, checkers involving female hollies, 2nd gens from word codes, low-gen Thuweds or from spriters' alts or CB hybrids/alts or one of the pretty uncommon Dorkface "Splits" or any kind of nice-lined holly in general, offspring of old pinks or frills...)

 

There are countless possibilities where the dragon might be very hard or even impossible to replace (due to inactivity of the breeder, for example!) that do not involve CB holidays.

 

And, even though I'm an older player, I don't have anything to gain like that as I don't freeze. I'd use this feature to get some extras during incu-hatchable walls, but that's something everyone can do, surely.

[purplehaze]

I have to agree with Olympe and others that this does not just benefit older players. Anyone can make a mistake and freeze a dragon that they didn't intend. In most cases it is easily replaced, but not always. Suppose you accidentally freeze the CB Gold instead of the messy 27th gen hatchling you meant to freeze? Maybe CB Golds are easy for you to get, but personally I have never caught one -- the only two I have on my scroll were very generous gifts! And that is only one example. Try reading over the thread about dumb mistakes you have made on DC and you will see that it is not a rare thing.

 

I have nothing to gain from this suggestion as I almost never freeze anything and have none that I regret. Nevertheless I see its advantages with proper safeguards to keep it from becoming a way around scroll limits.

Edited November 22, 2015 by purplehaze

[AnanoKimi]

Please keep in mind I did suggest trading and gifting previously. And no they are not any easier for me to get than they are for you or anyone. Anyone that decides to check my scroll then point a finger at my prize will be sorely mistaken. I have been lucky enough to cross paths with generous individuals and lenient traders.

 

It does benefit mostly the older players. Again, most things with the right amount of work is replaceable, and it does not take a year to make that happen. So long as people talk to others who catch the things they need and set up a suitable trade then it can be replaced in a matter of weeks.

 

I'm not saying no one will benefit from this, or that this will be absolutely useless, but the overall need for this is very... skewed. While its addition will not affect me, nor will I complain regardless of how its set up because I will not use it, but it should really be noted that aside from all the 'important' past mistakes that again mainly include CB holidays, CB Prizes, CB/Low Gen Retireds, everything else is replaceable in a more reasonable amount of time than a year.

 

My point isn't that "Oh if you accidentally freeze a CB Gold, you can just catch another one in five minutes" its, if you accidentally freeze that CB Gold, you have a better chance of finding someone to gift you another one or IOU trade you for one in less than 6 months than it is to wait a whole year just sitting there waiting to finally get the chance to unfreeze it. I'm sorry but if I make a mistake like that with an important CB, you bet your butt the first thing I'm gonna do is jump on the trading forums and start looking for someone to IOU trade me for one. I'm not gonna ignore it for a year and put my plans that need a Gold in em on hold for a whole year when I can use that time to trade and work for more.

 

Thats my point. Outside from the old timer mistakes, anything new that's been done aside from 2014 prize freezes are replaceable.

 

It isn't just to benefit old players. People can regret freezing:

 

- perfect word codes

- dragons with pretty lines found in the AP; breeder unknown

- low gen metals

- once common dragons that later became rare (ex: almandine pyralspites)

- dragons you traded for, accidentally froze, and breeder won't replace

 

These are all cases that would either probably take more than a year to replace or are completely irreplaceable. Just because you wouldn't personally care about some of those cases doesn't mean they don't matter to others. There are uses for this feature that extend throughout the entire user base, older and newer.

 

And, yes, old players will obviously have a bit more than the average player to gain from this, but if we were going to shut down every suggestion based on oh no the horror older players will like it a lot, we should probably get rid of trophy increased scroll limits while we're at it :/

And its with Cases like this that make me feel that a whole year is far too extreme. If you really want use the "All users have troubles in common ways" then keep in mind that having to wait an extremely long time to undo a mistake on something stupidly common or easy is aggrivating. Its these cases that make me think that a whole year of waiting is far too long. Again 6 months is still pretty long but not holy crud I froze this today five minutes ago on accident and now I have to wait till Nov. 22, 2016 just to get it back when I need it ASAP.

Edited November 22, 2015 by AnanoKimi

[purplehaze]

You are obviously not going to see my point and I'm afraid I still disagree with you. Just because you are adept at trading and can get anything you want in 6 months does not mean we all can. And no, I am not pointing at your CB Prize as an advantage, just your practice and skill in the trading field, which we don't all share. That's all.

[AnanoKimi]

You are obviously not going to see my point and I'm afraid I still disagree with you. Just because you are adept at trading and can get anything you want in 6 months does not mean we all can. And no, I am not pointing at your CB Prize as an advantage, just your practice and skill in the trading field, which we don't all share. That's all.

I understand that. I know no one is a master trader. I'm not actually. I want to say more or less I am lucky? I come across the right people at the right time. Like with my golds. But its issues like those who cannot trade, those who do not have forum access and the such that makes me feel like saying a whole year to wait for a simple stupid mistake is really over board. Even six months feel overly extensive but its not as bad a whole year. As I mentioned, having to wait an exceedingly long time to fix a very simple and stupid mistake is more aggravating than having done the mistake itself.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Well, as I've said before, it doesn't affect me personally whether there is a long cool down. Just know that if there ISN'T, people are going to exploit this.

 

But personally I don't mind the year wait, because as I mentioned before, DC already has a year long wait based system with holiday and seasonal availability. So yah, it'd stink to have to wait a year after a goof up, but such a long wait is normal procedure for this game. And a long wait is certainly better than not being able to fix the mistake at all.

 

Maybe as a solution in the middle, just have six unfreezes a year with no cool down. That'd be exploitable, yes, but hardly at a scary rate.

[NotBambi]

Tbh, I do not think all three of these are necessary. From my post on the other page, and I'm going to add to it:

 

-If you can only unfreeze 12 a year, that means that it would take 4 years to unfreeze everything you potentially wanted to breed - just from one year of grabbing holidays. That's going to build up quickly if you only grab stuff to unfreeze later.

So rather than 48 unfreezes, you have 48 freezes and 12 unfreezes. That leaves you with 4 things to unfreeze per event and 44 spaces for freezing fodder you don't want to unfreeze.

-If you have to wait one year to unfreeze, that means it would be two years before you could breed more holidays from the nice ones you froze.

So you have 48 unfreezes, but you have to judge if the two year breeding limit for holidays is worth it or if you want to spend some of your freezes on freezing fodder.

-If you can only unfreeze 12 a year and can only unfreeze after a year's wait, that means it would take 5 years to unfreeze everything you potentially wanted to breed - just from one year of grabbing holidays. As well, you won't be able to breed anything for the first year after the initial grab.

So you have 12 unfreezes, leaving you with 4 unfreezes a holiday and a year's wait to breed.

 

I just think having both is an unnecessary restriction when just 12 unfreezes a year is plenty restricted.

 

 

 

I do think it is worth talking about because there are people (I believe people have admitted it in this very thread) that they are much more likely to be grabbing new Halloweens than old cb ones. We can't just say it is one or the other because it's going to be both. Which is going to lessen the egg difference you are worried about, since with people grabbing new Halloweens and/or old bred ones, the AP wall could last longer than you expect. Not to mention that each year, I am not surprised if the wall grows a little bit - this year certainly seemed longer than last.

Just to avoid repeating the same over and over again, I agree with SockPuppet Strangler's post quoted above, and in particular with the "boldened" (by me) statement. 12 unfreezes a year is plenty restricted.

Actually I agree also with people that stated that this would benefit mostly the older players. So what? Even if I joined the cave quite earlier than I joined the forum, I have no holidays or discontinued hatchies to unfreeze so I would not benefit. So what? Why would I disagree with a suggestion just because I would not benefit/use it? Any new suggestion has the potential to be more beneficial to a group or to a playing style, should everybody else disagree?

[KageSora]

Anything other than the above is quite basically and generally replaceable.

I would reiterate that you CANNOT replace a dragon with a special code or that was a gift or otherwise holds special attachment. Getting a new one of the breed does absolutely nothing at all to fix the mistake.

 

Furthermore, no, the feature will still have use. I myself just froze a hatchling the other day because I wasn't paying proper attention and meant to freeze the other one of the breed. I would happily let it unfreeze once the 53 weeks had passed even if it was easy to replace, simply because I like being able to correct my mistakes.

This is where my previous question of "Once all the mistakes are reversed, what is left?"

The new mistakes that are made. The new regrets that are made. The nature of the game is that it changes quite a bit. New things are added--both dragons and features. And these additions could result in regrets down the line. This would allow for the correcting of the mistakes.

Once all the players unfreeze what benefits them in the trading market the most then its done.

You seem to be the one projecting your belief this is about the trading market onto people. Not all who would unfreeze do so with the desire to trade the now-valuable offspring. I myself don't generally trade holidays--I breed them and either gift them or send most or all of them to the AP.

While most wont wait that year, I'm sure once all is said and done, ya'll who keep openly admitting you would abuse it still would. Sure it would take a year, but I have no doubts you wouldnt do it. As I'm sure there will be many others who will also not care about the year long wait and still abuse the limits with it.

I argue that, at that point, it's no longer true abuse. You've made your trade-off--you waited your year and a week (and, for holidays, you've waited your second year to be able to breed them). That is the exact reason for the limitations--you have to pick if you want to dedicate your time and unfreeze slots to something like that, or if you'd rather just do the leg work and trade around to get around your limits quickly.

My point isn't that "Oh if you accidentally freeze a CB Gold, you can just catch another one in five minutes" its, if you accidentally freeze that CB Gold, you have a better chance of finding someone to gift you another one or IOU trade you for one in less than 6 months than it is to wait a whole year just sitting there waiting to finally get the chance to unfreeze it. I'm sorry but if I make a mistake like that with an important CB, you bet your butt the first thing I'm gonna do is jump on the trading forums and start looking for someone to IOU trade me for one.

And what of the younger players who aren't allowed to have a forum account? What of the players who don't WANT one?

They can't just hop into the gifting/trading section and start trying to get a replacement.

Well, as I've said before, it doesn't affect me personally whether there is a long cool down. Just know that if there ISN'T, people are going to exploit this.

 

But personally I don't mind the year wait, because as I mentioned before, DC already has a year long wait based system with holiday and seasonal availability. So yah, it'd stink to have to wait a year after a goof up, but such a long wait is normal procedure for this game. And a long wait is certainly better than not being able to fix the mistake at all.

I agree.

 

I personally wouldn't care if there was unlimited.

 

But I'm pretty sure TJ will flat-out refuse to put in a feature that's go so little to balance it that it can be readily exploited to get around the rules of the game. Therefore balances are needed, and the restrictions are those balances.

 

Also, it's true--months or years of waiting is par for the course in this game.

[Fuzzbucket]

I was going to quote KageSora and comment - but why bother - I agree with all of it.

 

I could live with 6 a year and no CD - as long as they have to have been frozen for - say - a month, to prevent holiday abuse. And they MUST insta grow up.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@Fuzz: the only after freezing cool down that will deter holiday abuse is 53 weeks. Freezing a bunch of things on Halloween and then waiting to Thanksgiving to unfreeze them means nothing. Heck, I'd probably not even have mates ready for them yet. The only restraint there would be having 6 slots instead of 12 because of course it halves abuse potential.

[Fuzzbucket]

@Fuzz: the only after freezing cool down that will deter holiday abuse is 53 weeks. Freezing a bunch of things on Halloween and then waiting to Thanksgiving to unfreeze them means nothing. Heck, I'd probably not even have mates ready for them yet. The only restraint there would be having 6 slots instead of 12 because of course it halves abuse potential.

Yeah I know. I was trying to be slightly more positive for the benefit of a very few people who just don't get it ! I'm all for the 53 weeks.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I realize, I just don't think there's any point in applying a cool down if it isn't long. If it isn't 53 weeks it doesn't mean much and we'd be better off without it entirely.

 

Or to put it plain, either of these work:

- 12 unfreezes a year / 53 week cool down before you can unfreeze

- 6 unfreezes a year / no cool down before you can unfreeze

[olympe]

Again, most things with the right amount of work is replaceable, and it does not take a year to make that happen.

Most, but not all.

When Ribbon Dancers were new, they bred white Stripes despite being mostly green. (I think I have one of those somewhere... See?. This breeding pattern has been fixed later on. But what about the people who realized they bred white stripes, but wanted green ones - and decided to freeze the hatchling(s)? I think there were some other breeds where the Stripe breeding has been corrected eventually. What about white Stripes bred from mostly black/grey dragons? These are irreplacable since the black Stripes have been introduced. Yes, it's just stripes. Still.

 

I know it's true that this kind of thing (re: rule changes) would mostly affect older players, but they're also the ones most affected by the rule changes in the first place.

[RainDear]

Changes are constant. A new player today might freeze a hatchling and have a change next week that makes him want to unfreeze that hatchling again. Just because this change would mostly affect longer term players does not mean that newer players can't also come to benefit from it at some point.

[Fuzzbucket]

Actually - given the number of newer players who actually ask how they can unfreeze because they made a mistake, or tried it out to see what would happen or whatever - I think on the whole older players don't wonder that, at least....

[NotBambi]

Well... 12 unfreezes per year, restricted by 53 weeks of cool down, will overwhelmingly benefit old players: they have old holidays and discontinued breed hatchies and could benefit right now of those 12 unfreezes. While new players, that i.e made a mistake last week, need to wait.

So, if the cool down is deemed necessary, it should start, initially, not from the date those old hatchies have been frozen but from whenever the suggestion is implemented. So everybody would need to wait, not just the newbies.