Unfreezing

[silver_tiger]

Honestly, I could see myself doing that a little. Since I can't get my normal scroll limits with Christmas and Valentine's, I'm subbing getting second gens; I could possibly use this as a loophole to get more each season, and since we have so many now, if this gets implemented I just might! But since there will (probably) be a wait and a limit on how many unfreezes I have... honestly in the end it's probably more trouble than it's really worth.

Edited November 18, 2015 by silver_chan

[olympe]

Even then, you would have to divide those unfreezes between those holidays. I mean unless you get something extremely out of the ordinary, I don't see why you would waste them in that manner. Am I the only one who sees no real benefit nor reason in abusing this system? like All of the points for bred and CB holidays just make me sit here and go, "Ya'll have some form of love and excitement for these things I simply do not have nor understand." Like whats so great about stocking up on tons of what you already have in terms of holidays? How many of those are actually good and how many are actually being bred. Aside from some personal obsession with bred holidays, what is the real possibility of people wanting to do something like that so bad?

Bold by me.

 

Yes, that's exactly the point. Even with 12 unfreezes a year, you'd be limited to an average of 4 "extras" for each holiday event. That's quite a bit below the 16 we can freeze for, well, keeping the hatchlings.

 

Regarding holiday madness: I love most holiday sprites, with very few exceptions. Some of your most beautiful sprites are holiday dragon sprites. And, with the exception of the few holiday dragons of mine that have a messy lineage - which are few and far between - and the few others without "perfect" mates to continue the lineage, I usually breed them all every single year. Plus, I also breed some of them quite regularly outside their breeding season.

Like these. Or her offspring. Not to mention my CBs, which I breed to various mates to gift to people who need mates for their own dragons.

Edited November 18, 2015 by olympe

[angelicdragonpuppy]

The thing though, Anano, is that even if you don't get that excited about bred holidays, a lot of us do. If this feature is added without the 53 week restriction, then after I unfreeze my real regrets, I'll be using it during the Halloween and Valentine incuhatch walls to get more things because I loveee those breeds. Not everyone would be doing it though, certainly, so as you say it might not be a big deal. It's just something to keep in mind.

[cyradis4]

Even then, you would have to divide those unfreezes between those holidays. I mean unless you get something extremely out of the ordinary, I don't see why you would waste them in that manner. Am I the only one who sees no real benefit nor reason in abusing this system? like All of the points for bred and CB holidays just make me sit here and go, "Ya'll have some form of love and excitement for these things I simply do not have nor understand." Like whats so great about stocking up on tons of what you already have in terms of holidays? How many of those are actually good and how many are actually being bred. Aside from some personal obsession with bred holidays, what is the real possibility of people wanting to do something like that so bad?

*points to 65 bred Valentines (almost all of which can produce perfect checkers)

*points to 65+ bred Christmases (almost all of which can produce perfect checkers)

*points to 175+ bred Halloweens (almost all of which can produce perfect checkers)

*points to 98 CB Halloweens

 

I bred all but 12 of those Halloweens this year (CB and bred) and only missed those 12 because of lag. Many others did the same.

 

I know someone who arranged for 150+ bred Halloweens this year. I settled for 40. Many people fall somewhere between those two, with even more settling for the 21 they can get without trading.

 

So, yes. You are missing something. Everyone plays the game differently, and for many people, Holidays are a Big Deal.

 

For me, its not the 16 per holiday, or 12 per year, that's the big deal. Its in discouraging people from trying to get around the scroll limits, which to me is the big deal. Personally? I'd gladly use this to get 12 extra breds that I didn't have to trade for, even if its just at one Holiday.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[Fuzzbucket]

*points to 65 bred Valentines (almost all of which can produce perfect checkers)

*points to 65+ bred Christmases (almost all of which can produce perfect checkers)

*points to 175+ bred Halloweens (almost all of which can produce perfect checkers)

*points to 98 CB Halloweens

 

I bred all but 12 of those Halloweens this year (CB and bred) and only missed those 12 because of lag. Many others did the same.

 

I know someone who arranged for 150+ bred Halloweens this year. I settled for 40. Many people fall somewhere between those two, with even more settling for the 21 they can get without trading.

 

So, yes. You are missing something. Everyone plays the game differently, and for many people, Holidays are a Big Deal.

 

For me, its not the 16 per holiday, or 12 per year, that's the big deal. Its in discouraging people from trying to get around the scroll limits, which to me is the big deal. Personally? I'd gladly use this to get 12 extra breds that I didn't have to trade for, even if its just at one Holiday.

 

Cheers!

C4.

I am 1000% behind Cy4.

 

And yes, AK, I think you ARE

the only one who sees no real benefit nor reason in abusing this system?

 

People WOULD abuse it. EVERY loophole of any kind that shows up here gets abused till TJ closes it off.

[KageSora]

TBH, people would abuse the system for the sake of abusing the system. Even if they couldn't really gain from it, if the possibility of exploiting a loophole exists people will do so.

[Natayah]

I'm all for limitations and restrictions. I'm sure there are ways to abuse this. I don't really want to allow people to do this on a massive scale willy nilly. I think just for the sake of "lore" magic takes energy and drains energy. And just because you can cast a spell, you can't just as easily reverse it. Especially when you are talking about freezing a critter's growth forever and ever and ever. I wouldn't expect that to be easy to reverse.

 

Basically, I think the idea was that, in limited quantity, people have a way to undo something they regret and have regretted for awhile. Especially considering either circumstances or just changes in games. I think if something is Hard to do, it should be a bit easier to undo (such as making zombies is hard, but getting rid of them if you decide you don't want zombies on your scroll anymore, now you can do that easily - even though this didn't impact a lot of people, some people wanted to have an option to get rid of zombies and it wasn't possible, or they could only release ... don't remember if that option was ever there ... anyway...)

 

Anyway, if something is pretty easy to do (freezing, although it does have its limits too), it would make sense (as this is supposed to be a not easy task), UNfreezing would make sense to be a much harder thing to undo.

 

That's just from a lore/magic/mana energy perspective. I like it when game mechanics and lore can balance and match. I understand a few things never will, however, this one seems to be something that should match on both sides. Any "BSA" or "Game Action" that is based on "Magic" should match.

 

So... yes for limitations. The rest of the thread can hatch out what they would or would not like to see. But I think if TJ puts it in, he would make sure that it would be balanced as not to cause great upsets in the game or great abuse. He is pretty good at that stuff. It isn't necessary to present a finished project. Just an idea with some options we might like to see or variations on the main idea.

[NotBambi]

TBH, people would abuse the system for the sake of abusing the system. Even if they couldn't really gain from it, if the possibility of exploiting a loophole exists people will do so.

I tend to have an optimistic view of the world and, in particular, of DC. IMO the overwhelming majority of the users isn't here to abuse, take advantage, exploiting loopholes etc. And why would they do that? For a few pixels? Too much work vs null gain.

[AnanoKimi]

Well see I don't consider the.... 4 possibly 5 of you as valid representation of the whole site though. That's you 4... 5. So just because you might be all for this holiday madness for bred holidays (which all look the same to me, and by that I mean lineages) there is no real way to truly gauge that this kind of fanatism will truly be an issue. Thus why I feel that practically a year long wait seems far to extreme.

 

Whilst extreme fanatism should be met with adequate restrictions, I doubt those who do collect and breed holidays have such a high level of fanatism as you 4. A year seems extreme still. Thats why I mentioned 2-6 months as a range. 6 Months seems long enough to make it troublesome but not so long that its insane.

 

Again, I am all for limits, 12 a year, insta adults, a cool down after freezing before being able to unfreeze, but a whole year seems... unecessary despite the budding fanclub for bred holidays we have here. Honestly the only real concern in my eyes would CB Halloweens. In terms of bred holidays I really don't see what the big issue is. As Silve_Chan mentioned, there are more and more bred holidays each year. Going with that, each new release simply adds to the number of holidays being produced. With that in mind I don't really see the need for a year long cool down. If holidays bred like normal dragons do, of if the possibility for a 4 egg clutch was a rare occurrence with 3 really uncommon and 2-1 being the super common norm, I would agree to add in a year cool down. Having the ability to hoard so much can cause a shift in balance for those unable to catch past bred holidays as easily.

 

But we're talking about that we have walls of bred holidays that last for days. the very limited amount of hoarding that can possibly be done with this suggestion is no where near as detrimental as if we had an equal number of unfreezes for ever freeze. 12. That's the most you could hoard. The most. I don't see this being such a giant impact as most people really wanna make it seem.

[KageSora]

I tend to have an optimistic view of the world and, in particular, of DC. IMO the overwhelming majority of the users isn't here to abuse, take advantage, exploiting loopholes etc. And why would they do that? For a few pixels? Too much work vs null gain.

That strongly depends on who you ask, I think. Your idea of null gain may very well be somebody else's idea of "enough gain to make the work worthwhile". Especially depending on the restrictions on it.

 

It's been pointed out in this very thread by users who say that they would very much so use it as a loophole for their own ends if it were put in place without proper restrictions.

 

That's the real reason behind them, honestly--it keeps the amount of people who would use it as a loophole to a minimum (there are honestly people who will abuse a loophole just because they can, because it's fun for them), which then causes minimal--if even notable--impact on the game.

[NotBambi]

That strongly depends on who you ask, I think. Your idea of null gain may very well be somebody else's idea of "enough gain to make the work worthwhile". Especially depending on the restrictions on it.

 

It's been pointed out in this very thread by users who say that they would very much so use it as a loophole for their own ends if it were put in place without proper restrictions.

 

That's the real reason behind them, honestly--it keeps the amount of people who would use it as a loophole to a minimum (there are honestly people who will abuse a loophole just because they can, because it's fun for them), which then causes minimal--if even notable--impact on the game.

Oh well... Based on what I've seen of DC so far, I'm still for "honi soit qui mal y pense".

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Anano, the reason I don't mind 53 weeks is because it limits abuse while not being a severe penalty to those using the feature for honest intentions. Obviously, yes, a year is a long time... but it's a time frame DC already runs on. Holiday dragons are only available once a year. Seasonals are only available for three months before you have to wait nine months for their return. So if people aren't patient enough to wait a year to undo their most serious freezing mistakes (and indeed they'd have to be serious, as otherwise it'd be quicker to just replace the dragons then wait), then they are probably people who aren't patient enough for the game to begin with, so...

 

Still I think the idea has been talked over enough already, TJ will have lots of input and I'll be happy with whatever limitations he does or doesn't add, I just hope the feature gets added someday!

[AnanoKimi]

I still dont get that logic of "If you really wanna fix it you have to wait an extremely long time." Most people who wanna fix a mistake have waited pretty dang long up to the implementation of this feature (if implemented). I don't feel that such a long wait, again, is necessary to prove that you really want to unfreeze a mistake. I think 6 months is a long yet tolerable wait. A year, though tolerable, is just one of those "we're making it long cuz we can and need you to prove your worth."

 

Needing to prove the worthiness of a mistake is unnecessary.

[silver_tiger]

I still dont get that logic of "If you really wanna fix it you have to wait an extremely long time." Most people who wanna fix a mistake have waited pretty dang long up to the implementation of this feature (if implemented). I don't feel that such a long wait, again, is necessary to prove that you really want to unfreeze a mistake. I think 6 months is a long yet tolerable wait. A year, though tolerable, is just one of those "we're making it long cuz we can and need you to prove your worth."

 

Needing to prove the worthiness of a mistake is unnecessary.

I think the point is less having to prove your worth and more that people are worried about others abusing it, like I and several others have admitted we would use it to get more Holiday dragons. If I do make a mistake I honestly wouldn't mind waiting to undo it, any more than I'd mind waiting to undo my Holiday freezings; that said, I tend to agree with you that six months is plenty long enough.

 

But anyway, this topic probably has been talked to an end. I can't think of anything I want to add to it, at least.

[AnanoKimi]

I think the point is less having to prove your worth and more that people are worried about others abusing it, like I and several others have admitted we would use it to get more Holiday dragons. If I do make a mistake I honestly wouldn't mind waiting to undo it, any more than I'd mind waiting to undo my Holiday freezings; that said, I tend to agree with you that six months is plenty long enough.

 

But anyway, this topic probably has been talked to an end. I can't think of anything I want to add to it, at least.

I understand the abuse part as well but with such a small number of unfreezes, serious if any impact is seemingly not going to affect the game. Also, should this really be abused in a fashion that affects the game severely, then nothing is stopping TJ from increasing the time from 6 months to a year. Again though, any actual abuse to come from this is doubtful to be anywhere near harmful.

[KageSora]

I still dont get that logic of "If you really wanna fix it you have to wait an extremely long time." Most people who wanna fix a mistake have waited pretty dang long up to the implementation of this feature (if implemented). I don't feel that such a long wait, again, is necessary to prove that you really want to unfreeze a mistake. I think 6 months is a long yet tolerable wait. A year, though tolerable, is just one of those "we're making it long cuz we can and need you to prove your worth."

 

Needing to prove the worthiness of a mistake is unnecessary.

"People already waited a long time before it was implemented" is an argument that works exactly once.

 

As soon as it's implemented the idea of "people already waited a long time" is completely gone, as anybody who joins the day it's put in place will have not waited months or years for a way to undo their error.

 

Therefore I fail to see how an argument that only works in a specific set of circumstances and will be completely obsolete the minute people who've waited are able to use it is really an argument to be used at all.

 

That said, I don't see a problem with a 6 month wait over a year, TJ, as you said, can always increase it as needed.

 

However, the 53-week wait was suggested specifically because of concerns about abuse for holiday dragons. Therefore I can see the need to include it to allow it to be considered balanced enough by players fearful of what will happen during the holiday season. As we already have had several players admit they would use it in just such a way to get around loopholes.

 

I myself, if I cared enough about the bred holidays, would probably use it that way as well.

[Fuzzbucket]

"People already waited a long time before it was implemented" is an argument that works exactly once.

 

As soon as it's implemented the idea of "people already waited a long time" is completely gone, as anybody who joins the day it's put in place will have not waited months or years for a way to undo their error.

 

Therefore I fail to see how an argument that only works in a specific set of circumstances and will be completely obsolete the minute people who've waited are able to use it is really an argument to be used at all.

 

That said, I don't see a problem with a 6 month wait over a year, TJ, as you said, can always increase it as needed.

 

However, the 53-week wait was suggested specifically because of concerns about abuse for holiday dragons. Therefore I can see the need to include it to allow it to be considered balanced enough by players fearful of what will happen during the holiday season. As we already have had several players admit they would use it in just such a way to get around loopholes.

 

I myself, if I cared enough about the bred holidays, would probably use it that way as well.

And the people who are regretting freezing a CB holly HAVE waited, so - no prob.

 

As to holiday enthusiasm - well, people picked up the wall. And those of us (well certainly moi !) who advertise that we breed for free got MANY requests for offspring (people who WANT something specific but hate sifting the wall) - and I have a long list for Christmas and even Valentine's already. And only ONE from someone in this thread. So yes, the more general enthusiasm IS there.

[olympe]

Perfect proof for the "holiday enthusiasm": Look at the hatcheries during the breeding period. The overwhelming majority of eggs (and, once 2-3 days have passed, hatchlings) consists of bred holidays. Not of regular eggs, which are still available through both breeding and hunting the biomes.

[HeatherMarie]

I'm getting confused with all this arguing over restrictions. Is it safe to say that most people are at least on board with having unfreezing in *some* form?

 

Personally, I think 52 weeks is excessive, *however* I completely understand the logic behind it, and if that kind of restriction would help get this suggestion in the cave I'm all for it.

[Ha-Ki]

I'm getting confused with all this arguing over restrictions. Is it safe to say that most people are at least on board with having unfreezing in *some* form?

I don't think so. Most people who were against just have left this thread long ago. That part of the discussion is on the first pages of this thread.

Personally, I'm leaning towards "freezing should stay permanent", by the way.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Ha-Ki

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm getting confused with all this arguing over restrictions. Is it safe to say that most people are at least on board with having unfreezing in *some* form?

 

Personally, I think 52 weeks is excessive, *however* I completely understand the logic behind it, and if that kind of restriction would help get this suggestion in the cave I'm all for it.

I think you are on the mark there. But I can't see most of the restrictions seriously affecting many people. I would think 90% of the regretted freezes (probably more) are from AGES ago before holiday limits were lifted or when there were still OPs and frills around. How MANY mistakes do people make as a rule ?

 

Which is why I think the main complaints about restrictions are from people who do want to get around scroll limits. There's no REASON to freeze something you don't want to keep frozen; there really isn't.

 

And it's not as if mistakes are that easy - you ALWAYS get the popup about it being for ever (which would need rewording, but still.)

Edited November 19, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[RainDear]

This particular issue affects me personally hardly at all. I started out thinking "Yes, you knew it was permanent, live with it." but changed my opinion to "Ok, if you want it and TJ approves, I don't care." I did freeze several hatchlings to use as scroll sorters. If this is ever implemented and I realize that I froze more than I need for that purpose, I may decide to unfreeze any extras there, but they were all frozen two years ago, so if there is a waiting period for this, I have put in that time. It seems to me the discussion here is stalled. Nothing new has been said in quite a long time.

[olympe]

Nothing new has been said in quite a long time.

So very, very true. It's hardly funny any more how often people come up with the bright idea to suggest a limit of 60 unfreezes a year - or maybe unlimited. Telling them all over again why this idea is anything but bright does get tiring.

[Natayah]

Honestly, it doesn't matter if people are for or against it. Unless the idea is just so silly that so many disagree and the mods shut it down for whatever reason (already denied, against game ToS, too much abuse, already exists, whatever), then it doesn't matter necessarily if people agree or disagree. TJ will see the thread and either decide to do it or not to do it. Since this thread hasn't been shut down, someone on the staff feels the idea is not complete lunacy and therefore has allowed it to remain open.

 

Ya'll can keep talking, but I think its been pretty much talked thru, and should probably be left as it is and TJ can make his decision, or not make his decision, about what and if and when or if not on his own time as he does with everything else in this thread.

 

That's about it. If you really feel strongly about not having it in any form, and still want to discuss it, I'd create your own thread for that particular purpose. I think this has reached its closing point. Not to close the subject in case someone has something else they wish to post in the future. But in its current state, its really well done. And I prefer my meat rare.

[pederino]

I do think 53 weeks plus only 12 unfreezes a year is too much restriction because...

 

Lets say you catch or trade over 16 bred dragons for each holiday in a year (thats the max of freezings you get every 2 weeks, and I dont think any holiday last more than that, so its difficult to freeze more than that), using only the freezing&unfreezing mechanics. That means:

*You have 48 dragons, from which you can unfreeze no one until next year plus a week... that means that you can repeat the process without unfreezing anything, which goes to...

*The second year you can have around 96 frozen dragons! Now you can unfreeze 12 of those dragons , so...

*Now you only have 84 frozen dragons... How few... Oh, and here comes the third year. How fun...

 

In conclussion, after 3 years of "abusing" the feature you will end up needing 7 years without freezing to unfreeze every holiday you got this way, thats without adding any possible mistake. Even if you only used it the first year, you would need to wait 4 years plus the one year to wait without freezing to unfreeze everything you got through freezing.

 

If the unfreezing after freezing cooldown is just 6 months you can only add 12 dragons to the breeding pool, not too much, specially comparing it to the other 36 frozen you still have, those will need 3 years of waiting. Even if you factor around 1000 players (that means around 12000, but 12 for each player anyway), you would think is too much? In any case you would be just delaying the "inevitable", because if it is not the first year, it will be the second year, and then it will normalize and act as if the cooldown is just 9 to 11 months more or less.

Edited November 20, 2015 by pederino