Unfreezing

[olympe]

It's true that we can "cheat" the limits through trading, but the egg or hatchling someone else holds for you doesn't add to the competition for low-time CB eggs. Extra frozens, on the other hand, do add to the competition.

[Ha-Ki]

It's true that we can "cheat" the limits through trading, but the egg or hatchling someone else holds for you doesn't add to the competition for low-time CB eggs. Extra frozens, on the other hand, do add to the competition.

Which competition? It's ridiculously easy to catch cb holidays. If there is competition at all, it's only during the first couple of hours.

Besides, by the time the first set of cb Halloweens has hatched and can be frozen, they are not dropping in the cave anymore. And for christmas and valentine releases we have a limit for how many cb eggs we can grab.

[olympe]

Who's talking about CB?

 

Okay, let's go through the whole event from day one. *snip* *snip* *snip*

 

However, with the freezing-unfreezing mechanism proposed (without any limits to the number of unfreezes), the early people could have gotten the infamous 7+7+16 (AP eggs) after the release, which means that many of the later players would have been unable to catch their last two sets as the AP would have been emptied before then. Which means that the first players could have up to 42+16 = 58 new Halloween adults until the next year (or the week after), while slower players wouldn't have been able to get more than 28, maybe 35. All without trading for a single hatchling.

 

To me, that's a whole lot of difference.

*snip* But I'm arguing with suggestions like "5 unfreezes per month", where you can unfreeze much more than you can get extra holidays, even if you add up all three kinds of holiday dragons.

 

Of course, I'm aware of hatchie trades going on. I've done a couple of them till now. But every hatchling traded is one hatchling that was raised on someone's scroll, and thus took up scroll space. These traded-for hatchlings aren't being taken away from anybody who'd preferred to keep them, but being used to "pay" for whatever else the owner preferred to have. (Unless we're talking about cheaters - but cheaters cheat no matter what. I just hope that they'll get caught.)

And I pointed out more than once that CB Halloweens aren't the issue, but the bred holidays (of all three kinds!) that can be caught from the AP wall after the event. Of which there is a finite number available for very obvious reasons.

 

*snip*

The thing is, though, that on average, every player with only one scroll can only have 7 CB Halloweens. (Okay, there were some extras from people who abandoned the eggs to catch some more, but I doubt it was that high a number.) If some people trade for extra Halloween hatchlings, these hatchlings must come from someone who has do have used up scroll space to hatch them. With or without trading, the number of CB eggs taken is pretty much the same. Plus, during the 24 hours they drop, there's practically no limit to them.

 

On the other hand, with the holiday wall in the AP, there's a limit of eggs. Once every holiday egg is taken, there are no more. Once again, trading won't change the number of eggs being taken overall because there's a limit to what the whole player base can catch and hatch: There are scroll limits, after all. But more than doubling the amount of hatchlings everyone can have (and later keep as adults) will have an effect. Because it means that the player base as a whole can catch more than twice the usual number of incu-hatchables - until the wall is gone all of a sudden.

 

What bothers me about this is not only that some people will be able to have twice the amount of Halloweens (each year) than others, even without trading. We'll all know that time is crucial, and we'll be less likely to wait for trades - or set them up in the first place. The same goes for gifting. Or would you be willing to wait for an hour that someone claims the eggs you offered to gift them if you know that it could cost you a measly 30 adults eventually?

 

Sorry, I'm just too tired to write that up all over again.

Edited November 10, 2015 by olympe

[Ha-Ki]

You were the one talking about cb, see the quoted post

 

However, I don't see any issues with bred holidays either. The wall is getting bigger and bigger every year. There are enough eggs for everyone, even with extra slots via freezing and unfreezing.

 

Besides, I doubt that maxing out hatchie slots by abusing freezing and unfreezing is something that everyone will do. Just like it's possible to maximize zombie fodder, but apart from a few users that stand out with dozens of tombstones, the average player only has a couple of them. Personally, I wasn't even locked most of the breeding period because I have enough Halloweens on my scroll and I'm very picky about additional ones. I wouldn't have frozen a single hatchie to unfreeze later, even if I could. And there are a lot of players out there who are only interested in cb, who only collect x pairs and who get bored by the Holiday wall.

[YourOnYoutube]

UNFREEZE IT BE UNFAIR becuase u would have to wait years, and it kinda never unfreezes. I agree with this idea full support.

 

[Obscure_Trash]

UNFREEZE IT BE UNFAIR becuase u would have to wait years, and it kinda never unfreezes. I agree with this idea full support.

What is unfair? What never unfreezes? Can you please be a little more descriptive in what you are talking about?

[AvianCrow]

I like this idea, especially for allowing people who froze cb holidays to unfreeze them. even if this never gets implemented on a wide scale as a feature, I think people should definitely at least have the opportunity to unfreeze their CB holidays.

[NotBambi]

You were the one talking about cb, see the quoted post

 

However, I don't see any issues with bred holidays either. The wall is getting bigger and bigger every year. There are enough eggs for everyone, even with extra slots via freezing and unfreezing.

 

Besides, I doubt that maxing out hatchie slots by abusing freezing and unfreezing is something that everyone will do. Just like it's possible to maximize zombie fodder, but apart from a few users that stand out with dozens of tombstones, the average player only has a couple of them. Personally, I wasn't even locked most of the breeding period because I have enough Halloweens on my scroll and I'm very picky about additional ones. I wouldn't have frozen a single hatchie to unfreeze later, even if I could. And there are a lot of players out there who are only interested in cb, who only collect x pairs and who get bored by the Holiday wall.

Exactly!

 

I've no skin in the game. Can't think of "stuff" I would want to unfreeze, in particular because I'm not a veteran. But I'm still quite puzzled about what some people are trying to avoid:

- To keep more CB Holidays than many do? It has been demonstrated again and again that it is possible without any freezing/unfreezing.

- To keep more bred Holidays? Possible without any freezing/unfreezing.

- So, what is the abuse and the scroll circumvention that is possible with freezing/unfreezing and not possible via trading etc.?

Edited November 11, 2015 by NotBambi

[AnanoKimi]

I have to agree with Ha-Ki and NotBambi here on their points. I don't really see the whole user base and their dogs circumventing hatchi limits to keep bred holidays. I mean if a certain number really want all those bred holidays then thats on that group. I personally and I'm sure I'm not alone, don't really care for lineages even if they're pretty. Most of us just want to collect extras for the sake of having an S1, S2 and Adult set.

 

Also the "We if I could do this I would" is invalid because thats just you, and what you would personally do does not speak for everyone, even for those as interested in lineages as you.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Well, Olypme had a point. The AP is pretty much instant Halloween hatchie heaven after breeding ends. Now, if you trade for people to hold your extra hatchies, the net amount of hatchies being picked up is still the same. But if everyone has 16+ freezes to use, those hatchies are a net INCREASE in the amount being picked up, since they aren't taking up anyone's hatchie slots. There's also the fact that freeze / unfreeze feels a lot less like work than trading for hatchie holding help does.

 

However... between a low (12 or 6) yearly unfreeze limit, and the optional (but personally supported!) 53 week cool down after freezing, and other factors such as not everyone going for max hatchies, I still don't think it'd be hugely detrimental to the amount of Halloweens available. Especially not if the limit was 6 unfreezes a year. Yah, people could be super patient and just wait years and years, but the amount of frozens to the amount of unfreezes they have is going to go up exponentially. You could, with careful planning, freeze 144 Holiday hatchies between all holidays combined. But that's 12 years (or 24 if you get only six unfreezes a year!) of unfreezing to get just the yields of one year unfrozen... see where I'm going with this? I don't think it'd be highly abused.

Edited November 11, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[AnanoKimi]

But whats the actual possibility of everyone doing what you all mention of freexng all the hatchies to unfreeze them. Again I feel like those who would do it, while not a small number, does not make it so detrimental that it has to be regulated to years of waiting. I feel like a majority of users don't really want to hoard that many holidays, not unless they particularly like a sprite. Otherwise most people are really just looking to at least collect something of what they missed. I feel like this whole holiday talk is again kind of this slippery slope thing...

[angelicdragonpuppy]

No, I agree, I don't think it'd be a huge deal--just as long as there's a limit of 12 or so unfreezes a year. We're on the same page with that, I believe? I've been playing since 2008 and offhand only know of 10 vitally important things I'd unfreeze (all CB Holidays frozen when we had limits on getting them), so anyone who's pushing for higher numbers or even unlimited unfreezes I can't help but feel has alterior motives. We all make mistakes, but so many that 12 unfreezes a year isn't enough...? I doubt it.

[AnanoKimi]

Well no I mean would it really be such an issue if there were more unfreezes? like do you honestly believe not because you your self would do it but do you whole heartly believe everyone will suddenly just freeze and unfreeze like crazy and hoard like the sit will end tomorrow?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Can I turn that around and ask why you think more than 12 unfreezes a year is necessary? The point of the suggestion, unless I've greatly misunderstood, is to undo truly regrettable freezes--not to laugh and flip freezes on / off like they're nothing. Honestly I think 12 a year is already very generous.

 

And to actually answer, I don't think everyone would, but I think most clever players who like to collect holidays would, and that seems to be a fairly good sized chunk of players. The effects in the long run might not be huge, but it is still encouraging the feature to be used in ways other than intended. If you put a cake in front of people who like cake, they will eat it. If I could've frozen / unfrozen things this holiday without penalty I sure would've done so.

 

Now, maybe TJ won't care one bit about how it's used and if that's the case then eh, fine, I'm certainly not going to cry if there's no limits! But historically everything in DC has checks and balances and people don't support things without them, so...

[NotBambi]

I'm still wondering what (exactly) are people trying to prevent with unfreezing restrictions. Because if the same outcome is guaranteed by extended networking or by having valuable eggs whose offspring can be easily traded for, I'm feeling very uncomfortable.

 

Edit: now that I think about this, I'm completely favorable to unrestricted unfreezing.... since that would be fair, allowing people to get more hatchies even if they do not have that big network of friends to hold eggs/hatchies nor have valuable eggs whose offspring they can trade for.

Edited November 11, 2015 by NotBambi

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'm still wondering what (exactly) are people trying to prevent with unfreezing restrictions. Because if the same outcome is guaranteed by extended networking or by having valuable eggs whose offspring can be easily traded for, I'm feeling very uncomfortable.

I already answered you above:

 

"Well, Olypme had a point. The AP is pretty much instant Halloween hatchie heaven after breeding ends. Now, if you trade for people to hold your extra hatchies, the net amount of hatchies being picked up is still the same. But if everyone has 16+ freezes to use, those hatchies are a net INCREASE in the amount being picked up, since they aren't taking up anyone's hatchie slots. There's also the fact that freeze / unfreeze feels a lot less like work than trading for hatchie holding help does."

 

Plus, using unfreeze as extra hatchie slots seems to be the exact reason most opposition to the idea has occurred. Whatever your viewpoint, I think it's fairly clear that it was never the intended use of the feature. Whether that's a big deal or not is, of course, up to personal discretion.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Oh, duh, I almost forgot! Another issue of unlimited freezes (and, actually, of not having a 53 week cool down...) is that people could just freeze stubborn or low time hatchies and then unfreeze them to have instant breeding adults. Unless you want to change how unfreeze works entirely, which has been done before (ex: unfrozen hatchies getting a timer to grow up again BUT being locked to your scroll) but is much more annoying and complicated than the current idea.

[Natayah]

That wait time seems really.... excessive. I'm all about limits, but that seems just crazy. Especially since trades pretty much allow people with a good collection of rare or valued dragons to get as many hatchlings as they want held for whatever time they need.

[AnanoKimi]

So then once everyone deals with their mistakes and unfreezes what they want what will be the point of keeping said feature? If the point is being able to undo past mistakes, once their undone, whats next? By now most people know that freezing release dragons from holidays is not necessary because we can collect bred holidays to the point that we get tired of looking at so many damn holidays. I doubt there will be repeats. other than that most dragons are replacable. So.... then whats gonna happen to the feature?

[NotBambi]

My apologies but the net increase argument does not make any sense considering the high amount of eggs and hatchies that were available until a couple of days ago - and the walls we saw. Nobody is damaged by that.

I'm not sure how is less work to freeze/unfreeze compared with trading, in particular if someone has a valuable breeding pool.

And who would be damaged if "people could just freeze stubborn or low time hatchies and then unfreeze them to have instant breeding adults"?

Again, I must be dense but I fail to see which limits would be circumvented and who would be damaged by unfreezing.

 

Edited November 11, 2015 by NotBambi

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Well, we have to wait nine months to get summer dragons again, and almost a whole year to get Halloweens again. Since there are already several things on DC that operate on a yearly or near yearly rotation cycle, I don't find a year plus a week to be so daunting. After all, anyone who couldn't wait that long probably would've given up on the game already anyway, eh?

 

But, really, while I think it's the wiser idea, simply having a reasonable yearly unfreeze limit + instant adults would be ok too.

[NotBambi]

Especially since trades pretty much allow people with a good collection of rare or valued dragons to get as many hatchlings as they want held for whatever time they need.

LOL my point exactly

[AnanoKimi]

That wait time seems really.... excessive. I'm all about limits, but that seems just crazy. Especially since trades pretty much allow people with a good collection of rare or valued dragons to get as many hatchlings as they want held for whatever time they need.

And thats where the issue lies. Not everyone is gonna hold hatchies for you. Having someone hold hatchies involves them using up their ability to hold and hatch things for themselves to hold it and hatch it for you. While yes freeing up that person to do as they please is nice, it removes the trading aspect and people getting nice things in exchange for holding hatchies for you and also doesnt stop someone from hoarding off to the side by freezing and having someone hold hatchies for them.

 

its the ability to not only get more from the outside but also double that by getting more on your own through this method.

 

an example. as a gold trophy I can have 21 growing things, someone with gold can hold another 21 growing things for my while mine grow up. thats 42. Add in the ability to unfreeze and freeze willy nilly, that's 16 more I can get through that so thats bumps up the total hoarding I can do to 58. Now while I personally see no fault in this, I guess the issue is that people feel thats too many dragons for one person to hoard on top of the fear that those who do use this method will hoard all the nice things and leave everyone with the ugly stuff...

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Hoo boy, I feel like I'm carrying this alone here... someone send help!

 

So then once everyone deals with their mistakes and unfreezes what they want what will be the point of keeping said feature? If the point is being able to undo past mistakes, once their undone, whats next? By now most people know that freezing release dragons from holidays is not necessary because we can collect bred holidays to the point that we get tired of looking at so many damn holidays. I doubt there will be repeats. other than that most dragons are replacable. So.... then whats gonna happen to the feature?

 

There will ALWAYS be mistakes, Ananokami. I, for one, accidentally breed the wrong dragons to each other all the time! (...over and over again, too, because I stupidly assume in breeding list = good mate ;A; ). Likewise, I imagine there will be other experienced players who go OOPS FROZE THE WRONG THING LDFKJFKLJ for as long as DC exists. There will also, of course, likely be new or inexperienced players who freeze valuable things and later regret it! (I know someone froze a CB Prize once... perhaps that might be regretted some day, haha!).

 

I guess I should ask, what do YOU want to get from this feature? I see it as a nice mechanic to undo the occasional mistake. Nothing more, nothing less. It's a lot like the Soulpeace's ability to remove zombies from your scroll: hardly something to use every day, but valuable all the same.

 

My apologies but the net increase argument does not make any sense considering the high amount of eggs and hatchies that were available until a couple of days ago - and the walls we saw. Nobody is damaged by that.

I'm not sure how is less work to freeze/unfreeze compared with trading, in particular if someone has a valuable breeding pool.

And who would be damaged if "people could just freeze stubborn or low time hatchies and then unfreeze them to have instant breeding adults"?

Again, I must be dense but I fail to see which limits would be circumvented and who would be damaged by unfreezing.

 

Wheeze... ok... one point at a time...

 

>There are so many Holiday eggs that a few extra hatchies doesn't matter

First of all, I agree with you! I DON'T think it would be a huge deal if people got a few more Halloween hatchies, precisely because there are so many. HOWEVER, to some people it might be a big deal to think of all those extra hatchies getting snapped up, and if their objections affect this getting implemented, then I'd like to think of counter measures.

 

>How is freeze / unfreeze less work than trading?

You have a point about breeding. It's just a click of a button to breed, just as it's a click of a button to unfreeze. HOWEVER, due to the limitations of breeding--getting the dragons worth breeding, getting the right egg from them, getting space to HOLD the darn egg and then trading it--I still think a decent amount of effort goes into it. I was offering 3g Prizes desperately trying to get some hatchies held, for just 24 hours, and actually wasn't getting any bites because everyone valued getting those tasty Halloweens more than the shinies! So while I understand where you're coming from I still think trading is more effort intensive.

 

>Who would be damaged by instant adults?

Well, it depends on how you define damaging. No one is being "damaged" in the literal sense, no. But is being able to freeze / unfreeze all your hatchies into adulthood in the click of a button really what DC is all about? If so, why not just make views not a thing? I mean, hatcheries are pretty easy to use, so why bother at all, right? Just have eggs hatch automatically in a day and hatchlings grow up automatically in a day.

 

...See where I'm going with this? Sure, it's not /literally/ harming anyone, but I do feel it's dumbing down the already super simple gameplay even more, which has... some sour taste, I think.

 

Now, my personal thoughts on the whole thing!

 

The reason I supported this suggestion initially, and still support it today, is quite simple: a way to forgive past mistakes made regarding freezing, even if it takes time and a teeny bit of thought to do so. Obviously, as you can see, everyone has different opinions on the matter, and that's quite fine! But to ME, the current idea--12 or 6 unfreezes a year, possibly a 53 week cooldown from when you freeze something to when you can unfreeze it, and instant adults--is the perfect way to allow a bit of mistake forgiveness. Just that. Not an extra hatchie holding method (I'd much prefer the proposed extra 8th slot for that!), not a feature to be used every day, not a way to stuff up on extra holidays or quickly grow a stubborn prize or to instantly unfreeze everything you ever even slightly questioned freezing. Just a simple, straight forward way to undo your worst freezing regrets. And to me, that's all it needs to be.

Edited November 11, 2015 by angelicdragonpuppy

[NotBambi]

LOL I started replying to this thread because I tend to be devil's advocate and I'm still here because of my Don Quixote de la Mancha temperament.

Initially, I was like "Restriction, restriction, restriction, gimme a break" even I would not be affected by any restriction since I've nothing to unfreeze.

Now, I'm more on "Wait a sec, you guys can get how many hatchies you want because you have a valuable pool of eggs to trade but at the same time you want to restrict mechanisms that would allow others, that do not have the same advantage, to get more hatchies? Not fair!!!"