Unfreezing

[silver_tiger]

I can see what you mean, but in a year you have around 384 freezing chances, if you need to unfreeze, it would not really hurt you to take 1 out, would it? I mean, with this suggestion you would sacrifice 16 (at most, you can just need 4 or 6 instead of 16, but 16 is the max) freezing chances, that would still leave you with 368 freezing chances. Do you really freeze that much?

I currently need 238 hatchlings frozen (roughly), which does include this last Halloween's dragons. Of course I won't be able to do them for a year, so... 235, alright. But to unfreeze the one hatchling I want to unfreeze, that means I can't freeze more than three things per two weeks for 3 months. I could do it, sure; but do I want to? Not really. That would mean I would only be able to get my list down to 223, and that's only if I manage to remember how many babies I've frozen, so I don't go over that limit of 3. Chances are I'd forget, and accidentally go over.

 

Also as to your other suggestion of freezing a dragon I don't want to breed, nah. I've gotten pretty good at double checking mates, but even if I do mess up (as I have in the past and probably will again) I'll just shrug and either freeze the baby or dump it in the AP. Either someone will snatch it up or it'll be a Wild Dragon in the end. I'm fine with either scenario.

[pederino]

The problem with that is that you'd only have up to 1 unfreezing chance per month, but 32 freezing chances. The system is still broken.

 

And don't even dare to suggest we get 16 unfreezing chances every two weeks if we choose not to freeze anything during that time! NO WAY!

 

Personally, though, I'd much prefer a simple and straightforward system. X unfreezes every year (6 or 12), insta-adults and maybe a waiting period of up to 53 weeks.

The 32 freezing chances per month is something we already have, i didnt made that up. And that doesnt make the system broken, unfreezing could be for undoing mistakes and storing hatchlings for breeding or protecting them, and therefore will not be used as much, so no need. Still, no need for them to be tied either anyway.

For the last part, I would recommend a time wait of 16 weeks (4 months) over 53 weeks (1 year and a week), simply because 1 month is 4 times as much time an egg would take to become an adult, therefore 4 months would be 16 times as much, and a year woul be 48 times as much. Also, in a year most people would forget to unfreeze the hatchling, even 4 months can make the mind forget, and you have to take in account that the age of players here in DC varies from 8 to who knows how much, if its too young, around 12 years old (8 years old is maybe too young to understand the feature), she would probably forget, because teens, if the player is around 40 to 60 (I read so ewhere that there was a player around 45 yesrs old), its memory is not like it used to be, and this is not taking in account people that have a not so good memory because of any reason (genetics, mental discapacity, sickness,...), so yeah, 53 weeks is way too much time to unfreeze a hatchling.

 

@fuzzbucket, thats right, but then you need to wait a week to breed again, you may not care for time, but others do. I for example, like to do things as fast as possible, so I avoid mistakes (because, often, avoiding takes less time than fixing or waiting it to fix itself over time, which is what you are suggesting basically), if I can use some tool or technique to reduce my mistakes, I would use it, and if there is a tool to reduce the time to do something I would also use it. This tool, of course, would only work for avoiding mistakes, but not reducing time.:-)

 

@silver_chan If you only want to unfreeze 1 thing, nothing more, then you can use 1 unfreeze and in 2 weeks you would recover the freezing it took you, no waiting 3 months for it to recover. And, if you already want to unfreeze 1 thing, that means you already have it, therefore, you dont have to wait for using unfreeze, you use it and thats it, you would keep with 237 to 234 freezings, not 225. And it would only affect you the first year.

For the second paragraph, read the comment I made for fuzz just above this one.

 

-------------------------------

 

Anyway, the system may not be broken, but 1 thing is for sure: it is complex, I have had to explain it at least 3 times, and no one seems to understand it all that well, so, lets just keep freezing and unfreezing as 2 completely separate entities, lets keep it simple.

Edited November 15, 2015 by pederino

[KageSora]

I'm inclined to say that if a person can't remember or make notes to remind them that they wanted to unfreeze a hatchling, they're not really missing out on not unfreezing it at all. It clearly wasn't a major impact to their playstyle, or their goals. I say that as a person with a terrible memory who needs to keep notes on my goals and such.

[olympe]

The 32 freezing chances per month is something we already have, i didnt made that up. And that doesnt make the system broken, unfreezing could be for undoing mistakes and storing hatchlings for breeding or protecting them, and therefore will not be used as much, so no need. Still, no need for them to be tied either anyway.

For the last part, I would recommend a time wait of 16 weeks (4 months) over 53 weeks (1 year and a week), simply because 1 month is 4 times as much time an egg would take to become an adult, therefore 4 months would be 16 times as much, and a year woul be 48 times as much. Also, in a year most people would forget to unfreeze the hatchling, even 4 months can make the mind forget, and you have to take in account that the age of players here in DC varies from 8 to who knows how much, if its too young, around 12 years old (8 years old is maybe too young to understand the feature), she would probably forget, because teens, if the player is around 40 to 60 (I read so ewhere that there was a player around 45 yesrs old), its memory is not like it used to be, and this is not taking in account people that have a not so good memory because of any reason (genetics, mental discapacity, sickness,...), so yeah, 53 weeks is way too much time to unfreeze a hatchling.

 

@fuzzbucket, thats right, but then you need to wait a week to breed again, you may not care for time, but others do. I for example, like to do things as fast as possible, so I avoid mistakes (because, often, avoiding takes less time than fixing or waiting it to fix itself over time, which is what you are suggesting basically), if I can use some tool or technique to reduce my mistakes, I would use it, and if there is a tool to reduce the time to do something I would also use it. This tool, of course, would only work for avoiding mistakes, but not reducing time.:-)

 

@silver_chan If you only want to unfreeze 1 thing, nothing more, then you can use 1 unfreeze and in 2 weeks you would recover the freezing it took you, no waiting 3 months for it to recover. And, if you already want to unfreeze 1 thing, that means you already have it, therefore, you dont have to wait for using unfreeze, you use it and thats it, you would keep with 237 to 234 freezings, not 225. And it would only affect you the first year.

For the second paragraph, read the comment I made for fuzz just above this one.

 

-------------------------------

 

Anyway, the system may not be broken, but 1 thing is for sure: it is complex, I have had to explain it at least 3 times, and no one seems to understand it all that well, so, lets just keep freezing and unfreezing as 2 completely separate entities, lets keep it simple.

See also:

After using you use yhe freeze action on a hatchling you would consume one freeze and unfreeze action, after 2 weeks of using the action your freeze action will restore one chance (like always), and after 3 months your unfreeze will restore one action (this is independently of the other).

The broken part is that, if you use up one freeze, you cannot unfreeze anything for three months. Meaning you wouldn't be able to freeze anything over a course of 3 months so you can unfreeze just once. Which is inherently broken because freezing shouldn't be affected by a new feature IMHO.

 

Plus, I still think that the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid!) principle should apply. A clear "X unfreezes a year/month" is much more straightforward and can be just as limiting without affecting other features (like freezing).

 

Regarding player age - you really should talk to fuzzbucket about that one. There is a reason for this quote from her signature, after all:

I do have a memory. It just doesn't work.

[Fuzzbucket]

I'm inclined to say that if a person can't remember or make notes to remind them that they wanted to unfreeze a hatchling, they're not really missing out on not unfreezing it at all.  It clearly wasn't a major impact to their playstyle, or their goals.  I say that as a person with a terrible memory who needs to keep notes on my goals and such.

THIS is very true. (But does not actually apply to me, see below.) But I still want to know – why would anyone freeze anything if they knew they were going to unfreeze it later ? I really see this as a way to fix the past – holidays, old pinks, frills – and to fix what are surely VERY rare mistakes in the present. Or are we memory-deficient ancient people also too stupid not to freeze willy-nilly, pederino ?

See also:

The broken part is that, if you use up one freeze, you cannot unfreeze anything for three months. Meaning you wouldn't be able to freeze anything over a course of 3 months so you can unfreeze just once. Which is inherently broken because freezing shouldn't be affected by a new feature IMHO.

 

Plus, I still think that the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid!) principle should apply. A clear "X unfreezes a year/month" is much more straightforward and can be just as limiting without affecting other features (like freezing).

She is absolutely right KISS is the way to go. Don’t tie them at all. They aren’t related, for most people.

Also, in a year most people would forget to unfreeze the hatchling, even 4 months can make the mind forget, and you have to take in account that the age of players here in DC varies from 8 to who knows how much, if its too young, around 12 years old (8 years old is maybe too young to understand the feature), she would probably forget, because teens, if the player is around 40 to 60 (I read so ewhere that there was a player around 45 yesrs old), its memory is not like it used to be, and this is not taking in account people that have a not so good memory because of any reason (genetics, mental discapacity, sickness,...), so yeah, 53 weeks is way too much time to unfreeze a hatchling.

Regarding player age - you really should talk to fuzzbucket about that one.  There is a reason for this quote from her signature, after all:

I do have a memory. It just doesn't work.

How very true. I turned 71 recently – and I have no trouble at all remembering why I would unfreeze if I could (my sig is a LIE ) – now that I went through my database (hey, old people also compute !) to find if there WAS anything.

 

Do NOT generalise about the player base, pederino. Therein lie many worms in cans...

Anyway, the system may not be broken, but 1 thing is for sure: it is complex, I have had to explain it at least 3 times, and no one seems to understand it all that well, so, lets just keep freezing and unfreezing as 2 completely separate entities, lets keep it simple.

Everyone in this thread understands very well what you are saying, pederino. Even us creaky grannies They just disagree with you. Your idea is unnecessarily complicated. VERY much so.

Edited November 15, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[silver_tiger]

@silver_chan If you only want to unfreeze 1 thing, nothing more, then you can use 1 unfreeze and in 2 weeks you would recover the freezing it took you, no waiting 3 months for it to recover. And, if you already want to unfreeze 1 thing, that means you already have it, therefore, you dont have to wait for using unfreeze, you use it and thats it, you would keep with 237 to 234 freezings, not 225. And it would only affect you the first year.

For the second paragraph, read the comment I made for fuzz just above this one.

But my point is I'm constantly using them. I'm out of freezes right now. I wouldn't be able to use unfreezes if they were tied to that--maybe if they first appeared and I used one right away and then yes, my freeze would bounce back in two weeks. But if I made a mistake and froze another hatchling I don't want to, I'd have a great deal of trouble unfreezing it.

 

Basically, your idea isn't hard to understand it's just more effort than I'm willing to put out for a tiny potential feature in a free online game.

[pederino]

[...]

 

Do NOT generalise about the player base, pederino. Therein lie many worms in cans...

 

Everyone in this thread understands very well what you are saying, pederino. Even us creaky grannies They just disagree with you. Your idea is unnecessarily complicated. VERY much so.

Actually, generalization is the most objective way to go. No one can look for each case individually. Thats why we generalize, to make better decisions in general, can you be wrong about a person because of generalization? Yes, of course, and very likely also, because as you imply, in a group there is always some individuals that go out the standards.

About everyone understanding it, I dont think so, specially when reading the comment of Olympe just above yours, where she states its broken because for using unfreezing you must wait 3 months without using freezing again, when actually, they restore independently according to the time you used one or the other in my suggestion. But it doesnt matter, as you said, its unnecessarily complex.

 

@silver_chan Sorry, I still dont see your point. But lets agree you are right, since the restriction is, as I said earlier and agreed with fuzz, unnecessarily complex.

And yes, the basic part of the idea is not too complex, but what about the "advanced" part?

 

Anyway, I think we have drifted away of the main topic.

 

SideNote: sorry for any misspelling, I am in my tablet (I was also for my last comment), and its more difficult to write on it.

Edited November 16, 2015 by pederino

[zaverxi]

Tying the unfreezing with the freezing? Noooo, I don't want there to be a collective pool for those that we draw actions out of, that'd kill it too much.

 

As for remembering when to freeze or unfreeze, why does that even matter...? So long as it's AFTER the time period, whenever someone happens to remember to unfreeze, they're good to go. If it's something they really super need immediately, I doubt they'd forget it that easily. If they do, it must not be that important. There's plenty of ways to remind yourself to unfreeze something. Put the frozen hatchie at the top of your scroll, or name it something along the lines of 'I Need Defrosting' or something. Or name something else at the top of your scroll with a reminder to unfreeze it, idk.

 

 

 

By the way, I already claimed 'I Need Defrosting' so don't bother.

[Shajana]

I don't need an unfreezing BSA, but I would be more than happy if I could, at least, be able to unfreeze my old CB holiday dragons.

[KageSora]

why would anyone freeze anything if they knew they were going to unfreeze it later ?

The only reason I can think of to freeze with the intent to unfreeze later is to get around scroll limits.

 

Which is exactly why the limitations are proposed, after all. It makes it unappealing as a quick-fix, and it still acts as a trade-off to balance it out if they're totally cool with being unable to make use of it for an extended period of time.

 

She is absolutely right KISS is the way to go. Don’t tie them at all. They aren’t related, for most people.

Not to mention that the more complicated and difficult it is, the less likely it is to have a chance of implementation.

 

The more complicated it is with restrictions the harder it is for players to understand, which makes it just not worth it.

 

Also it may make it more difficult to code in without issue if it has to tie in to a lot of different things--I dunno, since I don't code, but I would imagine the more factors it has to take into account the more work needs to be put into the code to make sure it works and doesn't break anything.

[Natayah]

Erm, when I first supported this suggestion I did not have a prize. What I did have was a CB frozen sweetling hatchling that I eventually released so I could get a gorgeous tan even gen. This suggestion won't get me my sweeetling back. But I have sympathy for other persons who were in my position and froze either guardians or holidays before lineages became official and holiday limits lifted. Winning a prize has nothing to do with that and neither does having a cb shimmer.

 

They only thing I could unfreeze that would be "valuable" and I'm pretty sure I already covered this in this thread when the last accusation of greed came up, is a cb frill hatchy. No one requests CB frill 2gs from me. Ever. If the hatchy is worth something, it would be once. If that, as supposedly they've been given the green light for a rerelease. And the insta adult idea already made it a moot point anyway.

I do sincerely apologize, Vhale, if that seemed like a personal attack of any sorts. Because you are well known very kind hearted player and I don't have an issue with people who do or don't have CB Prizes. That was just an example. And I don't think getting one "changes" people necessarily. People are what they are. If you were nice before, you are still nice, and giving you a one of a kind "TJ Dragon" (next Holiday Lotto Prize I swear!!) won't change that.

 

It wasn't directed at any particular person. I just used that as a pretty obvious example. I see a lot of people on both sides arguing for and against this, but the largest voices, at least on my read on the thread (and maybe I'm wrong) is that the people discussing this the MOST with the MOST vocal voices that seem to be overshadowing maybe the "normal" players are the older, more established or "richer" players. That could also be because this group uses the forums more or cares more to keep conversations going because they are invested in the game, and therefore the forums.

 

And not everyone uses this argument, but people on both sides do use the arguement (for and against this idea) based on how they feel this will improve and/or destroy the game for the "poor common less rich newer (fill in adjective) player". Or how the idea is really raised because richer players want to be more greedy, or how this would allow other players to have a nifty BSA and make the game more fun, or how the only people with something to gain are only older players, etc. etc.

 

I'm not saying any one position is right or wrong. I just think if anyone is going to make their argument based on how it will impact the "common player," then we should ask some more "common players" what they think. Because I think on both sides, it's more established players (and well off players) that if they do or do not get this put in or not put in, lets be honest, its not really going to impact their ability to get dragons or gameplay a great deal.... Or at least not great increase their ability to get dragons by leaps and bounds. They can get those dragons other ways if they really want with other dragons.

 

So I just wanted to know what more average players thought of the idea. How do you guys think it will impact YOUR game play? Are you for or against or what variation do you like or dislike?

 

It doesn't mean established or well-off players can't contribute to the conversation. I just want to see more Average Players think of it. Because maybe they just don't care, or I am overlooking their responses, or maybe they just posted once several pages back and don't think they have anything more to add... I would just like to hear more what they think too.

 

I also support the idea, and have nothing to gain from it. But I still want to know what those who are newer or in the middle still think. I don't think greed is an issue, but because it keeps coming up, or how we must "protect" the "other players" ... I just want to know what those "other players" think. Because if they really could care less.... then I don't see why this topic is still under discussions in several threads for over 20 pages is all... If they do care, maybe there should be a separate thread called "Why Un-Freezing is Bad and I Don't Support It". I just don't know how much "progress" is being by re-beating that dead horse into glue. Other than we now have a glue-stick...

 

The Short Story: The Argument is Overused and unless you have new and average players posting about how they feel this is horrible unjust, it's probably time to STOP using that reason or argument against this idea. I tried to be more tactful about it, but I guess I made the opposite impression. So ... I just think its time for the "This is a bad idea" camp to go start their own thread and let the people who support it work out an idea for it. If you want to offer suggestions to make it better or why you like this variation or that one or don't like it, that offers something to the conversation and causes progress. If you really feel that way, I think it should be taken to another thread and discussed there so that camp can work out why its a bad idea so TJ has two very clear well thought out positions to consider.

Edited November 18, 2015 by natayah

[KageSora]

How, exactly, do you define an "average player" in this case? What makes a player well-off? Or established? Is it simply what dragons they have? How long they've been playing? What connections they have? How many dragons they have?

[Natayah]

How, exactly, do you define an "average player" in this case?  What makes a player well-off?  Or established?  Is it simply what dragons they have?  How long they've been playing?  What connections they have?  How many dragons they have?

I'm not exactly sure who this "mystical" player is, other than it being someone who might be less than a few years playing or doesn't play often and hasn't built up a large collect of the "rarer" or "uncommon" dragons. Maybe someone who really has to work very hard to get certain dragons they want, or is frustrated because they never seem able to get them through any means they know how to use. Aside from that, I only use this term because I find the opposing view point seems to want to "protect these players" from the horrible outcomes of allowing un-freeze to exist.

 

So if that is the case, please let these "new and average players" that have so much to lose by this idea step forward and speak for themselves. Otherwise, if it doesn't exist, I'm not sure its a valid reason to keep throwing around and repeating constantly.

Edited November 18, 2015 by natayah

[Wookieinmashoo]

I'm not exactly sure who this "mystical" player is, other than it being someone who might be less than a few years playing or doesn't play often and hasn't built up a large collect of the "rarer" or "uncommon" dragons. Maybe someone who really has to work very hard to get certain dragons they want, or is frustrated because they never seem able to get them through any means they know how to use. Aside from that, I only use this term because I find the opposing view point seems to want to "protect these players" from the horrible outcomes of allowing un-freeze to exist.

 

So if that is the case, please let these "new and average players" that have so much to lose by this idea step forward and speak for themselves. Otherwise, if it doesn't exist, I'm not sure its a valid reason to keep throwing around and repeating constantly.

I'm pretty sure some people like this have posted. They're just not very vocal because they have either no dragons they want to unfreeze, or really just don't care. I can easily see how people would not post because it doesn't matter to them if unfreezing exists or not.

 

Furthermore...what would a new player have to "lose" if unfreezing is implemented? What does anyone have to lose?

Edited November 18, 2015 by Wookieinmashoo

[AnanoKimi]

You have to understand as well that simply because we are longer dtanding or more avid players does not impair our ability to try and see thing from a starting players point of view. We all started at the bottom. Also, someone who has a better understanding of the game can give better arguments and reason as to how certain features can impact gameplay. While newer users don't seem to really post here (which is a shame really) I don't see why discussing a feature mostly aimed towards older players whilst still benefiting newer players is an issue.

 

I also don't understand this concept of "older players, or 'richer' players". Even with things like prizes, its a bit rude to assume that things are simply a snap of the fingers away and poof all hard work and dedication to the collection or the breeding is gone or made super easy. Poor breeding ratios, real life, and personal goals all play a part in how we play. Having something rare like a prize doesnt instantly get a user everything they want. It takes time. You loose credibility the longer you take to produce, you get people impatient if you do IOUs, and you feel responsible when you are unable to deliver. To those with the ability and luck to get the good stuff like metals and rares, they come in all varieties. From newer players, to smi seasoned players, to much older players.

 

Finally, the "average" player is a myth. The average player is a non existent combination of personally perceived base line attributes. There is no such thing as "the average" player because even a new player with good skills, good connection, and great luck can get the good stuff once they get the hang of how things work. To assume all players are uninformed noobs who ask the basic "its in the help thread/page" questions is a bit condescending to the concept. We all worked and played in some similar way shape or form and got to where we are at. Not all of us survived via use of 'limited' dragons, some of us traded normally, fulfilled long IOUs, or were blessed to cross paths with generous players who helped us obtain what we have. To assume a players "status" and length of time on this site should determine wether that user is fit to debate on a suggestion where, no matter how you look at it, also affects them is a bit unfair.

 

In terms of the actual idea being debated, as the greedy old timers that we are and knowing that working for what we want suck donkey nuts, we have done our best to come up with an idea that is both useful yet restricted in a way that does not take away from the feature. We are all greedy old timers, but we were all greedy newbies as well who wanted all the rares but couldn't manage to trade until we got better at catching and working the market. Please keep that in mind Nataya. I understand what you mean with the fact that its usually the same old people debating on an idea.

 

I personally have seen that most users don't venture here because there is this unspoken requirement in order to post a suggestion worth debating here. Fresh newbies who post here either have little understanding of the game, or come under the impression that DC is like most other places in its workings. Both create situations where the users are sort of cast out for having little knowledge of the actual DC community creating this sort of bar people must reach before being able to tred here. It does create a certain level of perceived hostility, but it ensures that the suggestions that are debated are ones that benefit the player base and are worth the time to debate and refine. To some degree I don't like it because it alienates new players from participating, but at the same time it ensure meaningful and educated debate.

[KageSora]

I'd like to point out that Natayah pointed out that such players may not actually exist, and as such using the argument of "protect the players who aren't as fortunate" is an argument that doesn't hold water very well.

 

I'd like to ask anybody who sees themselves as standing to "lose" or be at a disadvantage to bring their concerns up so they can be addressed.

 

The argument about protecting the game and playerbase from those who would abuse it to get around in-game limitations is a valid one, however.

[olympe]

It wasn't directed at any particular person. I just used that as a pretty obvious example. I see a lot of people on both sides arguing for and against this, but the largest voices, at least on my read on the thread (and maybe I'm wrong) is that the people discussing this the MOST with the MOST vocal voices that seem to be overshadowing maybe the "normal" players are the older, more established or "richer" players. That could also be because this group uses the forums more or cares more to keep conversations going because they are invested in the game, and therefore the forums.

The reason might also be because it's those older, more established players who have more to gain. Because of some rule changes (sprite retirement, old holiday limits...), but also because they've had more chances to freeze overall. Maybe also people who froze some 2nd gen PB alt blacks/vines they'd much rather use for breeding now.

 

I may be one of the "older" players (6 years now), but I don't really consider myself rich, I'll gladly gift whatever I can, I most definitely don't have any CB prizes (lol) and I don't freeze at all. Still, I find this suggestion more than just acceptable if measures are taken to prevent abuse. That's why I'm arguing the same points all over again (and again).

 

And not everyone uses this argument, but people on both sides do use the arguement (for and against this idea) based on how they feel this will improve and/or destroy the game for the "poor common less rich newer (fill in adjective) player". Or how the idea is really raised because richer players want to be more greedy, or how this would allow other players to have a nifty BSA and make the game more fun, or how the only people with something to gain are only older players, etc. etc.

I think the argument I used wasn't about the "richer" players vs. the "poor", but about the faster players vs. the slow ones. Especially around Holiday breeding periods, getting around scroll limits via freezing-unfreezing is a very attractive loophole. Heck, I'd use it myself. But this ability would have impacts on other areas. As I pointed out, bred holiday eggs will be distributed even more unevenly than they are now. Which might affect how willing people will be to trade and gift said holidays.

 

For example, let's take this Halloween event. I made sure to breed my first batch of eggs about one to two hours after the event started. As did many other players. Why? Because I wanted to be among the first so I could profit more from the holiday wall that occurs after the event. Duh. But then some agreed-upon trades happened, and I had to wait for 17 hours for my traded-for eggs to be bred. This, of course, set me back in the race for the AP wall.

 

Of course, something similar might happen with gifting, too.

 

Now, this 17 hour delay might have cost me 7 additional AP eggs. After all, I had to wait for my Caligenes to grow up before taking a 3rd batch of incu-hatchable eggs. By the time my new Halloweens had grown up, there were no more Halloween eggs to be seen. (Maybe the occasional, once-every-x-minutes egg, but not enough to keep me refreshing.) If they had grown up the intended 17 hours earlier, I might have been able to snatch another batch.

 

With freezing-unfreezing, this mechanic changes. The first people to get to the (incu-)hatchable AP wall will not only be able to get their regular 2 sets of eggs until they're scroll locked, they'll be able to get 16 extras for freezing which they can later unfreeze. Which means that people will save up their freezes, and use them to store hatchlings to get around their scroll limits. It's human nature. Heck, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But that means that, as a logical consequence, the AP wall will be gone much faster. In essence, it's very well possible that, with the 17 hour wait I had, I wouldn't have been able to snag any incu-hatchables. Zero instead of not only 14 (which I did get) or 21 (which I might have been able to get had I been there earlier), it's 0 instead of 21+16 short-time frozens.

 

Considering this, do you really believe that people will be waiting for trades to happen, or giftees to show up? Personally, I highly doubt it. I sure wouldn't because the stakes are too high. Which would take a lot of fun out of the breeding season. Sure, the events and gorging yourself on bred eggs serve greed - but there's also a great spirit of sharing around. People gladly gift bred eggs, others trade to continue lineages. Both things would be severely affected by unlimited unfreezing. Which would affect all players, rich or poor, old or new, in a bad way: Less sharing, less trading, just competing to be among the first to raise all your eggs so you can have more.

 

In essence, I want to protect all players from a loophole. I'm still all for adding an unfreezing option, but with restrictions (12 a year).

 

It doesn't mean established or well-off players can't contribute to the conversation. I just want to see more Average Players think of it. Because maybe they just don't care, or I am overlooking their responses, or maybe they just posted once several pages back and don't think they have anything more to add... I would just like to hear more what they think too.

Speaking as someone who came up with several suggestions as a newbie that weren't all that brilliant after all (and got shot down by older players almost instantly), I can attest to the fact that the more established players have a better grasp of what might work for the site and what clearly doesn't. It's also us older players who know about all kinds of loopholes there are - or used to be. From my very first Winter Holiday breeding event, when Hollies were scarce as heck, I remember that one or two players sent all their holly eggs to people of their choosing via the old AP-trading method. Only they sent the respective codes to their friends upon "choosing" one egg to keep, of course after they made sure the AP was filled with other eggs so the hollies weren't actually visible on the AP and thus impossible to catch without knowing the code. I also know that all those happy giftees were supposed to grow their hollies and breed them during the same season. Which was still possible back then and for a while yet to come. (Proof - look at the "egg laid dates" of this lady and her mother!) Both loopholes have been taken care of since then.

 

ETA: I still don't think a waiting period is necessary with strict restrictions on the number of unfreezes. Besides, it wouldn't do anything to stop long-time players from using unfreezing to circumvent scroll limits. That's why I'm for strict limits on the overall uses (6 or 12 a year, definitely not more. 12 seems the most reasonable and most widely accepted, though.)

Edited November 18, 2015 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

The reason might also be because it's those older, more established players who have more to gain. Because of some rule changes (sprite retirement, old holiday limits...), but also because they've had more chances to freeze overall. Maybe also people who froze some 2nd gen PB alt blacks/vines they'd much rather use for breeding now.

 

I may be one of the "older" players (6 years now), but I don't really consider myself rich, I'll gladly gift whatever I can, I most definitely don't have any CB prizes (lol) and I don't freeze at all. Still, I find this suggestion more than just acceptable if measures are taken to prevent abuse. That's why I'm arguing the same points all over again (and again).

 

I think the argument I used wasn't about the "richer" players vs. the "poor", but about the faster players vs. the slow ones. Especially around Holiday breeding periods, getting around scroll limits via freezing-unfreezing is a very attractive loophole. Heck, I'd use it myself. But this ability would have impacts on other areas. As I pointed out, bred holiday eggs will be distributed even more unevenly than they are now. Which might affect how willing people will be to trade and gift said holidays.

 

For example, let's take this Halloween event. I made sure to breed my first batch of eggs about one to two hours after the event started. As did many other players. Why? Because I wanted to be among the first so I could profit more from the holiday wall that occurs after the event. Duh. But then some agreed-upon trades happened, and I had to wait for 17 hours for my traded-for eggs to be bred. This, of course, set me back in the race for the AP wall.

 

Of course, something similar might happen with gifting, too.

 

Now, this 17 hour delay might have cost me 7 additional AP eggs. After all, I had to wait for my Caligenes to grow up before taking a 3rd batch of incu-hatchable eggs. By the time my new Halloweens had grown up, there were no more Halloween eggs to be seen. (Maybe the occasional, once-every-x-minutes egg, but not enough to keep me refreshing.) If they had grown up the intended 17 hours earlier, I might have been able to snatch another batch.

 

With freezing-unfreezing, this mechanic changes. The first people to get to the (incu-)hatchable AP wall will not only be able to get their regular 2 sets of eggs until they're scroll locked, they'll be able to get 16 extras for freezing which they can later unfreeze. Which means that people will save up their freezes, and use them to store hatchlings to get around their scroll limits. It's human nature. Heck, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But that means that, as a logical consequence, the AP wall will be gone much faster. In essence, it's very well possible that, with the 17 hour wait I had, I wouldn't have been able to snag any incu-hatchables. Zero instead of not only 14 (which I did get) or 21 (which I might have been able to get had I been there earlier), it's 0 instead of 21+16 short-time frozens.

 

Considering this, do you really believe that people will be waiting for trades to happen, or giftees to show up? Personally, I highly doubt it. I sure wouldn't because the stakes are too high. Which would take a lot of fun out of the breeding season. Sure, the events and gorging yourself on bred eggs serve greed - but there's also a great spirit of sharing around. People gladly gift bred eggs, others trade to continue lineages. Both things would be severely affected by unlimited unfreezing. Which would affect all players, rich or poor, old or new, in a bad way: Less sharing, less trading, just competing to be among the first to raise all your eggs so you can have more.

 

In essence, I want to protect all players from a loophole. I'm still all for adding an unfreezing option, but with restrictions (12 a year).

 

 

Speaking as someone who came up with several suggestions as a newbie that weren't all that brilliant after all (and got shot down by older players almost instantly), I can attest to the fact that the more established players have a better grasp of what might work for the site and what clearly doesn't. It's also us older players who know about all kinds of loopholes there are - or used to be. From my very first Winter Holiday breeding event, when Hollies were scarce as heck, I remember that one or two players sent all their holly eggs to people of their choosing via the old AP-trading method. Only they sent the respective codes to their friends upon "choosing" one egg to keep, of course after they made sure the AP was filled with other eggs so the hollies weren't actually visible on the AP and thus impossible to catch without knowing the code. I also know that all those happy giftees were supposed to grow their hollies and breed them during the same season. Which was still possible back then and for a while yet to come. (Proof - look at the "egg laid dates" of this lady and her mother!) Both loopholes have been taken care of since then.

I agree with olympe. And what exactly constitutes a newer player ? I'd have put ananokimi, with a mere 2 years, right in there ! She, on the other hand, seems to see herself as an older player. If newer players means the last 6 months - I have to agree that they very often have no understanding of what will affect the game in unforeseen ways - there are so many suggestions over the years here for things that simply cannot work, no matter how whizzy they look at the time - and almost all have come from players who've been here for a matter of months, and many of whom immediately say "Oops, would it REALLY do that ? Oops I went right off it then...".

 

In this particular instance, it is players who have been here - longer even than me, and I started in 2010 - who have things like frozen CB OPs, frozen holidays from the days of only 2 per scroll and so on. REALLY new players never had that restriction, so whatever they froze is probably something that can easily be replaced.

 

More experienced players are also probably the ones with the best idea of how this could be used to get around scroll limits. olympe has outlined them really well in her example. It takes a degree of experience to plan like that.

 

I only have ONE thing I MIGHT unfreeze, and I have never (yet) frozen by accident. But I am in favour of unfreezing - with STRICT limits which are NOT tied to the freeze stats. (I would set it at a lot less than 12 a year, though - at least after the first year, and with the 53 week wait at least for holidays. How many mistakes did anyone make ?)

[silver_tiger]

Well I certainly see myself as an average player; all my rare dragons were gifted to me, and I am quite a slow catcher., I would really love to see this become a reality. I certainly don't want people exploiting loopholes, but I have a frozen hatchling I want to unfreeze (as I've said before it's just a Red, but it's got a good lineage) and I would love it if people who wanted to unfreeze CB holidays would get that chance.

 

I think that the proposed limit of 12 a year would limit the abuse to an acceptable level--perhaps people would still freeze holiday hatchlings, but unless they wanted to wait a very long time they'd probably only freeze one or two. That way they could use the unfreezes somewhere else, like another holiday.

[AnanoKimi]

I'd have put ananokimi, with a mere 2 years, right in there ! She, on the other hand, seems to see herself as an older player.

Ive been on DC since 2010 :3 and like I think after valentines so early 2010, kind of why I throw my self in the pool of old timers

 

I agree with silverchan, 12 a year is reasonable with insta adult and an after freezing waiting period. Still not really sure 53 weeks should be that waiting period. I want to say 2-4 months, 6 being the absolute ridiculous max.

Edited November 18, 2015 by AnanoKimi

[Fuzzbucket]

Ive been on DC since 2010 :3 and like I think after valentines so early 2010, kind of why I throw my self in the pool of old timers

 

I agree with silverchan, 12 a year is reasonable with insta adult and an after freezing waiting period. Still not really sure 53 weeks should be that waiting period. I want to say 2-4 months, 6 being the absolute ridiculous max.

53 weeks prevents using frozen and quickly unfrozen holidays to breed, is all.

 

ETA @AK - sorry - I just saw your forum join date

Edited November 18, 2015 by fuzzbucket

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Yah, the reason for 53 weeks is because if someone freezes holiday dragons planning to unfreeze them promptly after, they will have to sacrifice being able to breed them during the next holiday breeding season, which is a fairly potent deterrent.

 

I'm adamant on no more than 12 unfreezes a year and instant adults, but I'm fine either way with the post freezing wait. I do think it would discourage some people from exploiting the feature, but I also think if people did exploit it it still wouldn't be done in massive enough numbers to seriously impact the game.

[AnanoKimi]

Well the only holiday dragon issue this would apply to would be for halloweens. I see what you guys are getting at but still... It still seems a tad ridiculous and part of me is still wondering "so what" to that issue.

 

ETA @AK - sorry - I just saw your forum join date

 

No problem

Edited November 18, 2015 by AnanoKimi

[cyradis4]

Well the only holiday dragon issue this would apply to would be for halloweens. I see what you guys are getting at but still... It still seems a tad ridiculous and part of me is still wondering "so what" to that issue.

Actually it'd apply just as much if not more to Christmas and Valentines.... Remember, bred limits no longer apply.... And I'd gleefully use this to get more breds. Oh sure, you wouldn't be freezing CBs.... But I wouldn't use this to freeze CB Halloweens, anyway. I'd use it on the breds.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[AnanoKimi]

Even then, you would have to divide those unfreezes between those holidays. I mean unless you get something extremely out of the ordinary, I don't see why you would waste them in that manner. Am I the only one who sees no real benefit nor reason in abusing this system? like All of the points for bred and CB holidays just make me sit here and go, "Ya'll have some form of love and excitement for these things I simply do not have nor understand." Like whats so great about stocking up on tons of what you already have in terms of holidays? How many of those are actually good and how many are actually being bred. Aside from some personal obsession with bred holidays, what is the real possibility of people wanting to do something like that so bad?