"Display lineage as originally received"

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Based off diaveborn's comment in the Ascension thread.

 

What: Basically an account setting that you can toggle on or off. When it's on, all lineages on your scroll display as they were when you first received them. They will also appear that way for anyone viewing your dragons. In other words, if you get a dragon and later on one of its ancestors is killed / loses its name / has its name changed, you won't see this change. Offspring of the dragon will show whatever lineage is selected; changes to the parent's settings might or might not reflect in their offspring, depending on what the owners of those offspring set the option to.

 

Why: Because it's really not fair that people can pay other users for certain lineages only to have them changed on them after the fact. Imagine buying a dog or horse of a prestigious lineage, and then finding out that at any given time, the owner of the animal's parents could suddenly choose to destroy your records of that pedigree--in turn greatly decreasing the value of your animal's offspring--without ever having to compensate you for what you paid them for that lineage.

Not very fair, is it? Yet right now, that's exactly how things are.

 

Sure, some lineages might be found in the AP or gifted rather than bought, but the idea is the same--if you adopt a dog and research its pedigree, should the original breeder be able to enter your house and change your records without your consent? I should hope not!

 

(Thanks Nectaris for the idea, that does work better than comparing lineages to paintings!)

 

Alternatives:

 

-

(If it were a 'Freeze lineage (as it is right now)' thing, I suspect it might be easier to keep track of when it comes to the sheer of data, by the way (since otherwise, you need to remember the lineages of every dragon just in case someone wants to toggle it for their scroll at some point), but that just as a side-note.)

 

-

What if there's a 'toggle full view' (or a better name) button on the lineage pages of dragons which had a lineage alteration. The normal, default view is just the current lineage, but clicking that button would show that lineage as it was originally.

 

For example, a Deadline would show up as the deadline when someone just clicks on the linage link on the dragon's page. But if that someone then clicks the 'toggle full view' button, they'd see the line as it was originally, without dead dragons. Of course there's be a button to toggle back to the normal view.

 

Thoughts:

- This would not prevent the creation of deadlines / zombie lines. Simply create the lineage you wish before putting the offspring out into the world. Even if you have a few offspring before the lineage is complete, it's not so bad; those offspring will continue to show the parents (if the owner has this turned on), but future offspring (ex: the young of a dragon whose grandparents were later killed) will show the lineage.

- Perhaps the option could be set individually for each dragon. A common with parents named "Zombie Fodder" might be more interesting if you keep an eye out for changes to the lineage, whereas with a low-gen Metallic, you might not want to take any risks.

- If preventing name changes is too big an issue, maybe this can be used solely for changes involving the killing of dragons, rather than preserving the original names of dragons.

Edited December 5, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Syphoneira]

Totally support, especially regarding an option to retain the original lineage view for individual dragons!

 

I've no idea how hard this would be to code, but it would save many people much anguish.

[ZzelaBusya]

To be honest, I do not really see it as fair to the people who own the ancestors and who are the ones who worked on making the lineage reach the cerain generation you (general you) own, to begin with.

 

It's clear that some people may rename/name/unname/kill/zombify/whatever some dragons in the line, but to me, personally, it has always been common sense that whenever you trade for a dragon, there is always a possibility of that happening and therefore it's a risk to accept when you do it.

 

If you'd like to be certain nothing will happen to any dragons in the line, I would recommend building lineages with dragons that all belong to you.

 

To be short, the risks of the lineage changing its view with time, because of any actions applied to dragons in it, has always seemed normal to me, and the suggestion in question seems like unnecessary hassle to me.

[Fuzzbucket]

Would this mean that if I traded for this

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/73DVe

 

(as an egg; I'm not stupid - I can breed another) the person who got it would never be able to see the lineage ?

 

Because I was working up to this for AGES and then the deadline thing was changed. I did it partly to see if - after the time was up - it would show as inbred. Now I will never know. But I'd love to have one that would stay as this looks without the previous lineage showing !

[Syphoneira]

Would this mean that if I traded for this

 

http://dragcave.net/lineage/73DVe

 

(as an egg; I'm not stupid - I can breed another) the person who got it would never be able to see the lineage ?

 

Because I was working up to this for AGES and then the deadline thing was changed. I did it partly to see if - after the time was up - it would show as inbred. Now I will never know. But I'd love to have one that would stay as this looks without the previous lineage showing !

 

 

It would be an option.

 

You'd have the choice to see any dragon as it was when you got it, with the lineage you got it for, or as it was altered and really is.

[ZzelaBusya]

I just think that the analogy ("painting") angelicdragonpuppy has provided is incorrect. Because, to be fair, when you get a lineaged dragon from someone else, you do not receive the whole "painting", you get a part of the result, so to speak. I believe it's perfectly acceptable if the owners of the other parts edit them as they please afterwards. The whole lineage isn't *yours* after all, unless you have made all of it yourself.

 

I own a stairstep Shimmer a 2nd gen ancestor of which was killed at one point. I'm not claiming I like that fact, but nevertheless I simply accepted it as a part of the game, because it wasn't my 2nd gen Shimmer and whenever I get something via trading, something similar may happen - nobody has promised me that they won't do anything to their dragon.

 

Usually I do not kill dragons, unless for zombifying, so I don't "ruin" lineages for other people, at least not on purpose. But I don't know, maybe I zombified some CB dragons that had offsprings, and probably some people out there got 2nd gens from zombie/dead parents or something, without being notified by me in advance. Well I'm so sorry, but it's just a part of how things work.

 

Actually I have the right to breed a 2nd gen PB Gold, trade it and then kill the parents (before someone smacks me, I am not saying I'd ever do that). If I did something like that, I wouldn't demand that everyone around loved me for that and people could think of me what they want, but in any case please let me keep that right without changing the lineage view or whatever! Because the parents would belong to *me*, the lineage in question would have *my* input, and therefore *my* actions having to do with the lineage the 2nd gen PB would be part of seem valid to me. Same goes with any other users.

 

I'll state once again, if you trade for something you should accept the risk of the lineage and its view being altered later, I think.

Edited December 4, 2013 by ZzelaBusya

[Fuzzbucket]

I'll state once again, if you trade for something you should accept the risk of the lineage and its view being altered later, I think.

This, really. And I suppose anyway now that dead dragons keep their names my Brilliant Idea fell over at that point anyway.

[whitebaron]

I'll state once again, if you trade for something you should accept the risk of the lineage and its view being altered later, I think.

Total agreement from me.

It's why I breed my more important lineages as much on my scrolls as I can.

[Rosedamai]

I'll state once again, if you trade for something you should accept the risk of the lineage and its view being altered later, I think.

This.

[KageSora]

I don't so much see an issue if it's a view setting that ONLY alters how YOU (the owner of the scroll on which the dragon in question has the setting altered) see it... But I think that's as far as something like this should go.

 

Though, I'm not sure exactly how it'd manage with the naming thing--I mean, what if the dragon loses the name and somebody else snaps it up? What happens then? You'd have a lineage with incorrect names that, if looked at as names instead of codes, lead to unrelated dragons.

[pinkgothic]

account setting

I'd prefer this as a per-dragon option. Sort of like 'Freeze', except in this case, 'Freeze lineage'. Then the lineages you want to retain are preserved, and you don't have to globally opt out of pretty deadlines.

 

(One problem with that, of course, would be that any offspring from that dragon would automatically inherit the setting - their lineage would be frozen from the get-go, as a snap-shot of their parents frozen lineages. But I think that's okay.)

 

Either way, though, support.

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Deadlines taught me a lesson.. never trust that a lineage will stay the same if you didn't breed it yourself. For that reason I don't suppost this idea because it could impact how others play the game.. which is a big no-no in everyone's book.

 

Besides, I think it would be impossible to code and definitely not worth the effort. There are many other game issues that I'd rather see TJ working on than something like this.. like getting the biomes moving again.

[LibbyLishly]

I don't so much see an issue if it's a view setting that ONLY alters how YOU (the owner of the scroll on which the dragon in question has the setting altered) see it... But I think that's as far as something like this should go.

 

Though, I'm not sure exactly how it'd manage with the naming thing--I mean, what if the dragon loses the name and somebody else snaps it up? What happens then? You'd have a lineage with incorrect names that, if looked at as names instead of codes, lead to unrelated dragons.

This. I love this idea, but I think it should be a personal setting only for you, not to change how the lineage displays for everyone. I definitely like the idea of the toggle as a per-dragon option.

 

I can't see it working to show the names as anything but what the adults currently are named. The database simply doesn't hold that information, as far as I know. My guess is that if this option is implemented, the names of dragons will show as is. (Forgive me if my sentences are slightly garbled; it's too early in the morning for me to be coherent.)

[Rhynn Collins]

I completely agree with everyone saying it's your own risk to take a lineage bred by someone else.

 

However, I do think this suggestion could be useful... if it's slightly altered. What if there's a 'toggle full view' (or a better name) button on the lineage pages of dragons which had a lineage alteration. The normal, default view is just the current lineage, but clicking that button would show that lineage as it was originally.

 

For example, a Deadline would show up as the deadline when someone just clicks on the linage link on the dragon's page. But if that someone then clicks the 'toggle full view' button, they'd see the line as it was originally, without dead dragons. Of course there's be a button to toggle back to the normal view.

 

 

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Though, I'm not sure exactly how it'd manage with the naming thing--I mean, what if the dragon loses the name and somebody else snaps it up? What happens then? You'd have a lineage with incorrect names that, if looked at as names instead of codes, lead to unrelated dragons.

 

It could, but that's why you use codes. There've been times in DC history when the original Dorkfaces lost their names, and there's still a few Thuweds out there that aren't really Thuweds, so names have never been 100% trustworthy to begin with.

 

That being said, I'm more concerned about gravestones than names. If this suggestion gets off the ground and it's an issue, the name thing can be dropped entirely. I just think it's a pity when really big, grand ol' lineages lose all their names when their owners disappear... (althoughhh things are so weird with name loss now that I'm not sure this even happens anymore)

 

Deadlines taught me a lesson.. never trust that a lineage will stay the same if you didn't breed it yourself. For that reason I don't suppost this idea because it could impact how others play the game.. which is a big no-no in everyone's book.

 

Isn't being able to change other's lineages after-the-fact affecting how they play the game? Look at all the people who worked on the epic even gen lineage. That's one where everyone who joins agrees not to kill their dragons involved in it. Yet at one point, a 3rd gen from that lineage got killed. Is that fair to people? Because I'd say that's affecting how they play the game.

 

Whereas with this, no one's affecting how you play the game, really. You can still create deadlines / zombie lines. You just can't force people who have offspring from those lines before they were changed to look at how you've changed them, if they don't want to. But every single dragon you create after will still hold true to your vision! Just deadline dragons / zombie dragons and then breed the grandchildren of those dragons and everyone will see your lineage exactly as intended.

 

Yes, people could simply avoid ever cooperating with others, but... doesn't that seem sad? I reckon the fact that we're here discussing this suggests most of us wanted DC to be a bit more than just a solo game. So telling everyone "trade or collaborate not, lest ye be betrayed and thy lineages defiled" seems sad when I'm sure there's a solution that could ensure lineage integrity and allow the continued editing of old lines.

 

As a concluding note here, it seems very odd that we're not allowed to make IOU trades in posts, because we could get cheated, yet we're allowed to make trades and have the things we paid for changed on us after the fact, without our consent. If I give someone a CB Gold for a 3g Tinsel and later the 2g is killed and my 3g's offspring no longer worth anything, how is that not being cheated? DC has taken one step towards trade integrity, and I hope it will also take another, more vital one (because really IOUs are awesome, but this is a pain).

 

For example, a Deadline would show up as the deadline when someone just clicks on the linage link on the dragon's page. But if that someone then clicks the 'toggle full view' button, they'd see the line as it was originally, without dead dragons. Of course there's be a button to toggle back to the normal view.

 

Isn't that exactly the same thing, except you have to go through the annoyance of constantly toggling things to check the original every time?

[Cinnamin Draconna]

Isn't being able to change other's lineages after-the-fact affecting how they play the game? Look at all the people who worked on the epic even gen lineage. That's one where everyone who joins agrees not to kill their dragons involved in it. Yet at one point, a 3rd gen from that lineage got killed. Is that fair to people? Because I'd say that's affecting how they play the game.

Exactly my point, it's accept the bred egg at your own risk. If you don't want to be affected by someone else's game, keep it on your own scroll.

 

My 10 gen even gen project has been destroyed twice by how others play their game, so now I only accept 2nd gens from others so any tombstones that might come later would only be on the caveborn line and doesn't make anything disappear. Like what happened to the EPIC line I had several 3rd and 4th gens suddenly get killed and my project wound up with huge gaps in it. I don't ever want that to happen again, so I refuse to accept any bred egg over 2nd gen. I can live with a tombstone in the caveborn line because it doesn't cause a gap.. but I'll never risk my projects again with any other bred egg.

 

I want folk to be able to see my projects the same way I made them. How I see them is the same way you should see them, and you shouldn't need to change any settings to do so.

 

I'm no expert, but the coding for something like this would be a monster. It would have to track and record every change for every dragon in the database. That's a HUGE amount of dragons and I'd be willing to bet it would cause an astronomical amount of lag every time someone tried to view a lineage.. and the more dragons in the lineage, the longer it would take to check all of them and the more lag it would cause.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Cinnamin Draconna

[Fuzzbucket]

Isn't being able to change other's lineages after-the-fact affecting how they play the game? Look at all the people who worked on the epic even gen lineage. That's one where everyone who joins agrees not to kill their dragons involved in it. Yet at one point, a 3rd gen from that lineage got killed. Is that fair to people? Because I'd say that's affecting how they play the game.

Up to a point - but a dragon on your scroll is yours to do as you wish with. This is reiterated over and over when - for instance - an egg autos and the breeder wants to get it back and renames the parents "please PM me" and so on. Meanwhile the person who caught it makes it a vampire and you get woe woe posts - "how could they DOOO that to me, I wanted it BAAAAACK I bred it specially".

 

Well, tough. Them's the breaks. They bit an egg which was theirs. In the ultimate scheme of things this is the same. Suppose you were traded that 3rd gen tin and the owner of the 1st gen killed that - you can't even blame the person who traded with you.

 

There will always be things happening that screw up lineages. That Epic one was spectacularly awful - but - what about people who pass one scrolls - the new owner didn't make that promise and probably doesn't even know about it.

 

Life ain't fair. That's how life is.

[whitebaron]

I'm no expert, but the coding for something like this would be a monster.

the only thing i would not be concerned with was coding - you could, theoretically, save the lineage at the time the egg matures. no changes anymore, sort of an archive.

of course, this would only work with newer dragons, which it would only ever work with anyway - since older dead dragons are just gone, they might not even be in any database anymore.

[purplehaze]

I understand the frustration that spawned this suggestion. I have had lineages that I worked very hard on only to find that someone had "spoiled" it by killing a dragon somewhere in the line. But, with that said, I can't support this suggestion. It sounds like a coding nightmare to me and while that is TJ's decision to make I would much rather see him spend his programming time on other things -- better options for scroll sorting and organizing, dealing with ratios to prevent cave blocking, etc.

 

 

[Nectaris]

I'm failing to see how this would impact other's gameplay, especially if it was modified where only you see it as it once was. You can still kill, zombify, and make deadlines all you want. All it would change is your impact on others, and if that really is your goal then I would question whether or not that is an aspect that should be preserved.

 

As for coding, well, that is completely TJ's decision. It seems pointless and silly to veto something simply because you want TJ to work on your favorite project(for that is what it boils down to).

 

I think the best comparison is this:

 

If you buy a purebred animal and receive papers, a housefire at the breeder's house that destroys their papers will not magically make your papers burn up too. You still have a record of that dog's lineage, even if the breeder no longer does.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Nectaris

[LibbyLishly]

I'm failing to see how this would impact other's gameplay, especially if it was modified where only you see it as it once was. You can still kill, zombify, and make deadlines all you want. All it would change is your impact on others, and if that really is your goal then I would question whether or not that is an aspect that should be preserved.

 

As for coding, well, that is completely TJ's decision. It seems pointless and silly to veto something simply because you want TJ to work on your favorite project(for that is what it boils down to).

Seconding all of this. I couldn't say it more simply or eloquently on either point.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'm failing to see how this would impact other's gameplay, especially if it was modified where only you see it as it once was.

The main issue here is that then the trading value (or just the prettiness) of the offspring is still shot. I mean, I'd be happy, but the person I gifted a 5g from an Ice x Gold checker that now has a dead Ice in the 3g might not be, and a 4g Tinsel that suddenly becomes a deadline 2g Tinsel isn't going to be bringing in many trades. Sure, you could screenshot things as a sort of proof, but having to keep a dozen screenshots around to prove trade value / admire the original lineage is going to be pretty off-putting.

 

So I'd think the children would show the parent's lineage as it was set to display. If that's later changed (ex: someone who owns the parent of your dragon switches from "show original" to "show current" and reveals a deadline), what happens to the offspring is in turn dependent on your own settings (if you have it set to "show original" it'll look like it was when you got it--with the original lineage of the parent shown--but if you don't have that option on it would update to show the deadline).

 

I don't know coding, but I think it'd be easier than it sounds... it's just a matter of the site keeping a back up image of non-CB dragon's lineages and being able to bring it up if you flick the option on.

[pinkgothic]

I'm failing to see how this would impact other's gameplay, especially if it was modified where only you see it as it once was.  You can still kill, zombify, and make deadlines all you want.  All it would change is your impact on others, and if that really is your goal then I would question whether or not that is an aspect that should be preserved.

 

As for coding, well, that is completely TJ's decision.  It seems pointless and silly to veto something simply because you want TJ to work on your favorite project(for that is what it boils down to).

All of this.

 

(If it were a 'Freeze lineage (as it is right now)' thing, I suspect it might be easier to keep track of when it comes to the sheer of data, by the way (since otherwise, you need to remember the lineages of every dragon just in case someone wants to toggle it for their scroll at some point), but that just as a side-note.)

 

Edit: angelicdragonpuppy, as far as I can tell, Nectaris is agreeing with you. Hence the "All it would change is your impact on others" and criticising the impact-on-others, like you are. (Otherwise, I've completely misread her post and don't actually agree. )

Edited December 4, 2013 by pinkgothic

[angelicdragonpuppy]

All of this.

 

(If it were a 'Freeze lineage (as it is right now)' thing, I suspect it might be easier to keep track of when it comes to the sheer of data, by the way (since otherwise, you need to remember the lineages of every dragon just in case someone wants to toggle it for their scroll at some point), but that just as a side-note.)

 

Edit: angelicdragonpuppy, as far as I can tell, Nectaris is agreeing with you. Hence the "All it would change is your impact on others" and criticising the impact-on-others, like you are. (Otherwise, I've completely misread her post and don't actually agree. )

Oooh, yah, that might work better. It'd also make it somewhat easier for deadliners to have their work seen in previous offspring. I doubt anyone's going to choose to freeze the lineage on messies, and those are the usual candidates for intentional deadlines.

 

(Although, now that I think about it--people are making a big deal about their deadlines not being seen on old offspring, but in most cases if those are being done with messies, who's looking over those lineages on a regular basis to see that work anyway? A deadline that isn't a deadline to begin with isn't likely to be noticed, is it? O o)

 

Also I know Nectaris was agreeing (thank you, Nectaris! ), I just wanted to point out why the change isn't particularly useful if the lineage chosen isn't the one seen in the offspring as well.

Edited December 4, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[cyradis4]

I'm failing to see how this would impact other's gameplay, especially if it was modified where only you see it as it once was.  You can still kill, zombify, and make deadlines all you want.  All it would change is your impact on others, and if that really is your goal then I would question whether or not that is an aspect that should be preserved.

 

As for coding, well, that is completely TJ's decision.  It seems pointless and silly to veto something simply because you want TJ to work on your favorite project(for that is what it boils down to).

 

I think the best comparison is this:

 

If you buy a purebred animal and receive papers, a housefire at the breeder's house that destroys their papers will not magically make your papers burn up too.  You still have a record of that dog's lineage, even if the breeder no longer does.

I agree 100% with this.

 

And Nectaris: The reason the deadliners are against this is it means that they can no longer destroy the lineage of their dragon's already existing offspring.

 

In short, something like this means they can no longer affect other people's scrolls.

 

Right now, they can CHANGE other people's scrolls. A lineage is a part of the dragon, and any change to the lineage changes the dragon. If the dragon is on another person's scroll, then they are changing that person's scroll.

 

Which is against the rules.

 

Sorry deadliners, I've got a few deadlines I like too, but I see this subject crop up again and again and again, and its always the same old thing:

The deadliners want to be able to change OTHER people's scrolls.

And the other side does NOT want other people to be able to change their scrolls.

 

Its exactly like the people whining about an AP'ed egg not being returned: The deadliners want to be able to control their dragon's offspring AFTER it's already left their hands. Which is against the rules.

 

I do not expect to change a single person's mind with this post. Similar things have been posted Every. Single. Time. this subject has come up. And the people saying NO CHANGE and the people saying CHANGE haven't changed one bit, they are still all using the exact same arguments as the first time this subject came up.

 

The battle lines are drawn. The war has been waged for years. Negotiation Is Not Possible, for there does not exist a way to satisfy both sides.

 

Only TJ can break the stalemate. So far, he has shown no inclination to do so.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited December 4, 2013 by cyradis4