Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) I thought that this argument was not so much about what people do to their own dragons. Kill 'em, release them, name them fugly names if you like. I don't think people are as upset over that as they are over the fact they are being told they can't view the dragons history (which is all a lineage is IMO) in any way other than the way that dragons owner wishes. I guess I just don't get the whole 'it's my dragon and you can only see it's ancestry the way I want you to' argument. Shouldn't the whole 'once it's off your scroll you have no say so' go both ways? How is taking a screenshot and saving it that much different than toggling to a view that shows the same thing? Other than having to go offsite to view it, which would be a pain, why can't I just view the same thing from my own scroll if that's what I choose? (and how many deadliners actually visit their progeny, to even see how the scroll owner would have the view set?) You're right - nobody's saying that people have no right to do as they please with their own dragons. We just want to be everyone to able to do the same with theirs - including have an option of viewing the lineage they have the dragon for, without having it ruined by whatever may be done to any of the ancestors. And you're doubly right that once the dragon's off the scroll, it belongs to the new owner, and the acceptance of this needs to go both ways. But having to go to a screenshot, while preserving a lineage, is not the same as retaining the image of the lineage you got the dragon for in the first place... (Edit: And) deadliners generally involve long/messy lineages neatened up, so it's unlikely in the extreme that anyone would obtain a deadliner and choose to view the messy one, so I don't know why deadliners - who want to be able to view their deadlines the way they were intended to be viewed - would argue against the same desire in other situations, as with all people having an option to view their own dragon's lineages as they were intended by their owners to be seen. Edited December 6, 2013 by Syphoneira Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) ....... And you're doubly right that once the dragon's off the scroll, it belongs to the new owner, and the acceptance of this needs to go both ways. But having to go to a screenshot, while preserving a lineage, is not the same as retaining the image of the lineage you got the dragon for in the first place... (Edit: And) deadliners generally involve long/messy lineages neatened up, so it's unlikely in the extreme that anyone would obtain a deadliner and choose to view the messy one, so I don't know why deadliners - who want to be able to view their deadlines the way they were intended to be viewed - would argue against the same desire in other situations, as with all people having an option to view their own dragon's lineages as they were intended by their owners to be seen. Exactly. As for why the deadliners are against it.... That is what is so baffling, why on earth can we never get the deadliners to work with us on this? to work out a reasonable compromise? And the only two possible answers I've been able to come up with, well.... 1. That they DO feel they have the right to control the dragon's offspring after its left their hands. Despite that being against the rules (and if you read the thread you'll see all kinds of "justifications" on how destroying a dragon's lineage isn't altering the dragon. I, ah, disagree with them. Lots.) 2. They want to be able to destroy something others value. In short, malicious killing. And a non-cave screenshot won't work, because you still can't use your altered dragon for breeding new lineages, or see how pretty it was, or for trading. I would never, ever trade good stuff for a "third gen tinsel" where the 2nd gen was a tombstone. It doesn't matter if the rest of the lineage is still there but hidden, or if the owner has a screen shot. That tombstone, and the truncated lineage with no chance of another view, is worthless to me. Add another view option, and all of a sudden, that dragon that was worthless to me is something I'm willing to work out a nice trade for. C4. Edited December 6, 2013 by cyradis4 Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 Exactly. As for why the deadliners are against it.... That is what is so baffling, why on earth can we never get the deadliners to work with us on this? to work out a reasonable compromise? And the only two possible answers I've been able to come up with, well.... 1. That they DO feel they have the right to control the dragon's offspring after its left their hands. Despite that being against the rules (and if you read the thread you'll see all kinds of "justifications" on how destroying a dragon's lineage isn't altering the dragon. I, ah, disagree with them. Lots.) 2. They want to be able to destroy something others value. In short, malicious killing. And a non-cave screenshot won't work, because you still can't use your altered dragon for breeding new lineages, or see how pretty it was, or for trading. I would never, ever trade good stuff for a "third gen tinsel" where the 2nd gen was a tombstone. It doesn't matter if the rest of the lineage is still there but hidden, or if the owner has a screen shot. That tombstone, and the truncated lineage with no chance of another view, is worthless to me. Add another view option, and all of a sudden, that dragon that was worthless to me is something I'm willing to work out a nice trade for. C4. Indeed. Where a row of dead dragons lies, the code for these could give an option between the deadliner's preferred modes of viewing, with the 'Frozen' notation, of course, in all such 'frozen' cases, to prevent fraud against those potentially unaware that they were trading for/had AP-snagged a deadline where a tombstone didn't show - this would be to the benefit of deadliners, lol. Unfortunately, those are also the only possible alternatives which I can see, and the second case especially in those who specify that they don't want THEIR dead dragons remaining in lineages that people who've traded for these should just accept as ruined... Sad... Your points are, as usual, dead on, and your posts of interest - I wish I had your gift! Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 There are people posting here who've stated that their game play has been negatively affected by malicious killing. I should point out, though, how extraordinarily rare it is for that to happen. I've been playing since 2008 and have only twice encountered another user trading me a dragon for a good price and then destroying its lineage. It's much, MUCH more common to get stiffed for an IOU, given a bait and switch on a trade link, etc. Heck, I think I've encountered more attempts to pass off fake Thuweds than lineage wrecking balls. Trading is inherently dangerous, which is why the game offers no guarantees in that department. The reason to allow a lineage display option that displays a full lineage regardless of dragon deaths is not for the purpose of increasing trade value, in my opinion. It's because it makes no logical sense whatsoever for another person to be able to magically alter a scroll of sketches and information I supposedly have been scribing in my own cave. And because family pictures don't turn into skulls when your family members die. And because genealogy records don't crumble into dust when someone passes away. It's all just SILLY. That, and I approve of any ability to personalize one's scroll settings out of the sheer principle of the thing. There's too much sameness in this game as it is. Any ability to reorganize dragon records or lineage views to our personal tastes would get a thumbs up from me. :-) Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) Personalising your scroll is one thing, but from what I understand (since trade value is mentioned) people who support it imply that the settings would be saved for that dragon and *everyone else* would be seeing the dragon the same way they do. I don't know, if you want to lie to yourself, pretend a dragon in the lineage isn't dead, isn't renamed or anything, and are not content enough with making a screenshot beforehand to have it saved, by all means go ahead suggesting that. It makes no sense to me whatsoever, but meh. But going on providing false information about the dragon's ancestry to people around? That seems like cheating to me, especially if you want to trade that dragon! Even if there'd be an option to toggle the view it just seems plain wrong to me. "Hey, I have a 3rd gen Tinsel up for trade and want shinies for it. Yeah, it has a killed 2nd gen ancestor and a renamed CB ancestor, but who cares, I won't tell that to you anyway and let's pretend the line is just the same way it used to be." Seriously? A lineage is not a snapshhot. It's not a piece of paper that lies by you that only you can view. It's a feature that lets EVERYONE access your dragon's ancestry in order to find out valid information about it. If that information is purposely displayed incorrectly, what's the point? Edited December 6, 2013 by ZzelaBusya Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 @cyradis4 Thanks for clearing that up! I think for this idea there definitely has to be a marker next to the dragons name or the view lineage link, perhaps not a red star, and when clicked there can be a "view original" and a "view current" option with the now dead dragons' names in italics. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 .... The reason to allow a lineage display option that displays a full lineage regardless of dragon deaths is not for the purpose of increasing trade value, in my opinion. It's because it makes no logical sense whatsoever for another person to be able to magically alter a scroll of sketches and information I supposedly have been scribing in my own cave. And because family pictures don't turn into skulls when your family members die. And because genealogy records don't crumble into dust when someone passes away. It's all just SILLY. That, and I approve of any ability to personalize one's scroll settings out of the sheer principle of the thing. There's too much sameness in this game as it is. Any ability to reorganize dragon records or lineage views to our personal tastes would get a thumbs up from me. :-) You are after my own heart, my friend. But I think the wrecking-balls are far more common than most people seem to think. Most are accidental I think, or carelessness. And ZzelaBusya, in the method being discussed at the bottom of the last page, a dragon that has been altered would have some sort of mark by it no matter what lineage view you used. So you can't pass off a dragon with a dead ancestor as one that has all its ancestors intact. And a deadline view would also have said star, showing that there is another version of the lineage available. That's what I mean about discussion, and brainstorming, and working with us! You have concerns, I know. So work with me here! Help me devise a non-intrusive way in which a dead dragon can be always noted. And the deadliners can have the deadlined dragons they control viewed as they want, and the people with lineage views can have the views they want. Personalising your scroll is one thing, but from what I understand (since trade value is mentioned) people who support it imply that the settings would be saved for that dragon and *everyone else* would be seeing the dragon the same way they do. Yes, and no. I think it would be best if the default view of a dragon's lineage was the owner's preference, but a viewer would have the ability to switch between one view and the other. Details can be worked out and discussed, nothing is set in stone here. The "false representing" you are talking about isn't an insurmountable problem. It just takes brainstorming. Cheers! C4. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 That's what I mean about discussion, and brainstorming, and working with us! You have concerns, I know. So work with me here! Help me devise a non-intrusive way in which a dead dragon can be always noted. And the deadliners can have the deadlined dragons they control viewed as they want, and the people with lineage views can have the views they want. It's just that...I have a hard time brainstorming about something I am not interested in seeing at all. The current state of things seems perfect to me, I see all thoe possible changes as redundant. Marking a dead dragon with a star or any other sign is at least something, but still, the whole idea is just "pretending" something that's not true, that's what I dislike about it. I can pretend that my 123th gen Gold is caveborn all I want, but from my side suggesting a way to exclude parents from the lineage view to make it displayed as CB, because it hurts my feelings or isn't as aesthetically pleasing (and of course adding a star mark next to it so that people know that the line has another view!) would be kinda ridiculous... And yeah, I know that's different because in case of a perfect checker that later got a dead parent it at least USED to be a perfect checker before. But that's the point, it used to be that way, and isn't any longer! Just live with it, that's what I'd say about the whole matter. I understand it may be hard because of some emotional attatchment to a dragon because of its line or anything, but it's normal, and I have to go with the "you can only control your dragons" from that angle, because a line viewer is just a viewer, it displays dragons owned by other people, unless you own everything in the line. I think you (general you) should accept that what happens to the ancestry is beyond your control, it's a risk to consider and to accept when you get bred dragons from someone else. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 .... And yeah, I know that's different because in case of a perfect checker that later got a dead parent it at least USED to be a perfect checker before. But that's the point, it used to be that way, and isn't any longer! Just live with it, that's what I'd say about the whole matter. .... And we are right back where we started. Yes, the dragon used to be a perfect checker. Why is it no longer a perfect checker? Because of how the lineage page works. The dead dragon still existed, still was seen, still was there. So how does its death affect a picture of its lineage? Its ancestor is still its ancestor. It didn't stop being part of the DragonCave history just because it died. So, why can't a person have different pictures of the same dragon's ancestry? Cheers! C4. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) Yes, the dragon used to be a perfect checker. Why is it no longer a perfect checker? Because of how the lineage page works. The dead dragon still existed, still was seen, still was there. So how does its death affect a picture of its lineage? Its ancestor is still its ancestor. It didn't stop being part of the DragonCave history just because it died. Then it would probably make sense to make a suggestion that eliminates tombstones altogether? *shrugs* If you are not content with the fact that they are displayed instead of the image of the respective dragon breed. If things had always been that way and if dead dragons didn't change pictures upon dying, then I wouldn't even care. But that's what we've had for ages, death of a dragon is a part of the info that the line viewer reflects, and the idea of messing with those options now bothers me. Edited December 6, 2013 by ZzelaBusya Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 Personalising your scroll is one thing, but from what I understand (since trade value is mentioned) people who support it imply that the settings would be saved for that dragon and *everyone else* would be seeing the dragon the same way they do... But going on providing false information about the dragon's ancestry to people around? Am I missing something important here? If everyone has the choice to view current or past lineage from their own scroll, how is that passing on false information? If this were implemented and I offer a lineaged dragon for trade does not everyone have the ability to see it in it's current view if they so choose? I would also think this would be the default view and people wishing to see the past view would have to consciously make that decision. It doesn't force anyone else to see the lineage that way, does it? Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 I would also think this would be the default view and people wishing to see the past view would have to consciously make that decision. It doesn't force anyone else to see the lineage that way, does it? If the default view were the REAL actual lineage instead of the "preserved" one, then it would be better. *nods* I still don't agree with the suggestion as a whole, but this point wouldn't be that much of a cause of concern for me. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 Is there only discussion about dead ancestors and none about zombies because I got mixed up here: "For example I personally hate the idea that a dragon I have could have a zombie sprite in the lineage (I could be getting mixed up but I think that's what would happen) as the zombie sprites really bother me"? Or is it because zombies, being less easy to create, are less of a concern lineage-impact-wise than dead ancestors? Or maybe it is because people are using the concept of dead ancestors to cover zombies too, since they had to be killed to be zombified? In that case though I'd say that zombies and tombstones aren't the same as far as lineage impact. If you're just looking at trade value or aren't bothered by the sprite then a tombstone could be the same as a zombie but for people like me it's an additional support to the suggestion beyond trade value. I could be really confused about zombies, though - do they ever show up in lineage view of other dragons? Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 And because family pictures don't turn into skulls when your family members die. And because genealogy records don't crumble into dust when someone passes away. It's all just SILLY. Yah. Lineages are meant to be ancestral records, not a bulletin board of which relatives are alive or dead. Just because something dies doesn't mean it's not related to the descendant in question anymore. So really deadlines as a whole don't make sense. But they can still be neat, which is why I'm suggesting options to please both sides rather than calling for the discontinuing of tombstones in lineages. @Diaveborn: all depends on whether the zombies were there at the time of receiving or not. If they weren't, this applies. If they were then hey, you chose to keep it and that's what you see. I agree zombie lineages can be neat, but at the end of the day they're just as significant a change as a deadline. I doubt someone who worked on an 8th gen PB Pink collaboration would be pleased to see a zombie popping up in it, and they'd probably choose to see the original lineage. Whereas other people might suddenly find themselves in possession of a zombie checker and be thrilled by it, choosing to leave that lineage as default. Does that answer your question? Will try to update the OP tomorrow, I think the biggest suggested new thing is the option to view all varieties of a lineage? Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 Okay, I've thought about it for a while more and actually I have a couple of questions/thoughts. I will provide examples and will even illustrate them to make it easier. My apologies, the post is long - I wish we had spoilers but alas. Let's assume that the suggestion gets implemented and imagine some situations. I am sorry if I've phrased something in a weird way, but I've tried to reflect everything as clearly as possible, hope I succeeded. I -1. [Person 1] breeds two pairs of dragons: ------- They trade both eggs to [person 2]. After a while they kill one of the CB Silvers. [Person 2] doesn't like that fact and they use the lineage preservation option in order to have the line being displayed the old way. Then they influence, hatch and grow the 2nd gen Silver and the 2nd gen Sunsong. They breed those two dragons once they grow up, and they cooperate and produce an egg. (1-A) This is how the lineage actually looks like: ----- (1-B) This is how the lineage is displayed according ------------------------------------------------------------------------ to the individual settings of [person 2]: ---------- ---------------------------------- [Person 2] decides to trade that offspring away. They post it in the trading theads. Question 1: How would the lineage look like to other people who view it? Would it look like (1-A) by default, with the (1-B) view being accessible via the special toggle lineage option? Would the lineage be displayed as (1-B), with the normal view being available via the toggle view option? Would it be displayed as (1-B), with the dead Silver being marked with a special sign and the normal (1-A) view being accessible via said toggle view thing? The dragon in question catches the eye of [person 3]. They agree with [person 2], trade and receive that 3rd gen Silver. Now, [person 3] *likes* the fact that the Silver has a dead ancestor, so they choose the normal lineage view and set the display options to (1-A). [Person 2] names their Sunsong. (1-C) This is how the lineage really looks like now: ---------- [Person 3] really, really dislikes that name. And they want to get their 3rd gen Silver with the dead ancestor back, the same view and everything, without that yucky name! Your suggestion is called "display lineage as originally received", which leads to the following... Question 2: What exactly in this case would be counted as "the lineage originally received"? What happens if [person 3] chooses the preserved lineage view? Do they get (1-A), the original lineage, or (1-B), the one they "received" from [person 2] (even though in fact they didn't receive THAT line, to be fair they received a dragon that has lineage (1-A), it's just that [person 2] wants to see their lineages the way I described above)? Clearly the actual lineage [person 3] originally received is (1-A)! But if you are implying that, when a user chooses the past lineage setting, the "saved" lineage setting of the owner of the ancestors should affect the concept of what "originally received" is, then it should probably be (1-B). Any...thoughts? I -2. Some of the people who support the suggestion state that the feature may help people preserve lovely lineages like checkers and such. At the same time they claim that the option is actually helpful for any kind of lineage, no matter if considered pretty by the majority or not. So, according to the first statement, let's assume that the option makes the saved lineage status be passed on onto the next generations. Meaning that, by selecting the option [person 3] gets (1-B). Let's think that it's a good thing because in this example, instead of being fond of dead ancestors, [person 3] loves perfect checkers. So, they receive that 3rd gen Silver from [person 2] and select the preserved lineage thingie, and get their beautiful Silver (1-B). They breed it with another checker, a Sunsong, to produce a Silver egg. [Person 3] trades the egg in question to [person 4]. The evil [person 1] kills their CB Sunsong. *coughs* This is how the lineage looks like.... -----------...in reality (2-A): ---------------------- ...if the feature preserves the -------- ...if the feature doesn't preserve the ------------------------------------------------- settings of each previous owner (2-B): -- settings of the previous owners (2-C): ----- ----- Option 1 - [Person 4] receives the egg. They like checkers, so they happily turn the "preserve lineage" setting on, and get the (2-B) 4th gen checker. Option 2 - There starts the trouble, because [person 4] doesn't give a damn about checkers, he would like to see the line they claim they received - the 4th gen almost-checker with one dead Silver in the line (1-C). Well, they cannot do that, because if they turn the "past" lineage on, they get a 4th gen perfect checker they do not want, and if they leave the actual view then they get a 4th gen with two dead dragons in it (1-A), which for one reason or another they do not find nice. And so according to option 2, [person 4] throws a tantrum, because they cannot get the lineage they want, the glorious (2-C), even though the lineage used to look that way at one point. They say that the option is bad and wrong, and that instead of getting their lovely checkers people should let them have their wonderful lonely dead CB Silver in the line they want to see so much. The argument they would use would be that they do not care about how [person 3] wants to see their dragons, that (2-C) was exactly how they "originally received" the line and therefore they should be given an opportunity to keep it that way. I -3. If by "originally" received you mean that the 3rd gen Silver above would end up as (1-A) in the hands of [person 3] if they selected the preserve option, then I don't get how the whole thing will help with maintaining lineage patterns. [Person 3] will not be able to have a perfect checker despite choosing the past lineage option, and they wouldn't be able to breed any checkers for other people either, as any eggs produced would end up having a dead ancestor anyway. Feel free to swap the dragon characteristics I mentioned above for my examples in any way you like, I just used them that way to show the problem, the point is still the same. II -1. This is a little extra not having to do with the examples above, but I thought to toss that in anyway. If you'd like the preserved option to be passed on to the dragon's progeny (aka to save checkers and other "perfect" lines in case a dead ancestor or something like that suddenly appears), then it may lead to really weird situations, like this inbred checker for example (the codes reflect which dragon is which in this case): The "pass on" circumstance considered, the lineage view above is a result of the following: - A user owns a CB Black and a CB Nebula, they breed them twice and give both offsprings to another user. - The owner of those 2nd gen eggs influences, hatches and grows them. - The CB owner kills both the Black and the Nebula. - The 2nd gen owner leaves the lineage view setting of the Nebula as it is, and changes the settings of the Black to "preserve old view". They breed their 2nd gens and an egg is produced. That's....rather strange, I have to say. Feel free to ignore part II-1, but what I mean with that is: there is NO way to satisfy everyone when it comes to lineages! Tastes differ greatly, and just because one group prefers checkers/perfect lines/stairsteps/etc., it doesn't mean all the others should adapt to it and something should be done about the fact that certain players build lineages and handle dragons in a different manner. There's no way to have a perfect feature that would let people see their lineages as they please, unless you want to take it to a ridiculous level. What are we waiting for then, let's create an in-game lineage editor where you'd be able to replace images, names and so on of the dragons in the line that you do not even own in the first place... Or do you imply that every single lineage page should have a gallery of snapshots to choose from? Don't you think it would require way too much space, seeing that there are countless of possible changes to a lineage, especially a big one? I do not even want to develop any of my examples further, because it's already quite a nightmare. Just imagine what we may get because of that, so much mess and even more lack of agreement between users and their style of playing than we have at the moment. *shrugs* I'm not saying that liking lineages is bad, but it all may really end up being way too messed up if you guys go on with that... Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 No, I still feel this offensive as yes, people DO change your grandfather's name in historic records. A friend of mine got her name changed and now she's listed as her new name in family records. That's how most governments deal with it, unless your government is transphobic and won't recognize it when you transition. My brain hurts.... But I have to say this. I believe in some countries now, if you trans, you can actually change your BIRTH CERTIFICATE to show your new gender. How would THAT pan out in this scenario ? It is just an example of how things can totally change and - by the analogies here, would totally screw a lineage. A name change is as nothing by comparison Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 My brain hurts.... But I have to say this. I believe in some countries now, if you trans, you can actually change your BIRTH CERTIFICATE to show your new gender. How would THAT pan out in this scenario ? It is just an example of how things can totally change and - by the analogies here, would totally screw a lineage. A name change is as nothing by comparison Name changes are possible for dragons, and therefore that info gets updated on the lineage page. I have to agree with ylangylang here, actually. Gender changes, however, aren't something that exists for DC dragons at all, and therefore providing such analogies isn't necessary. If one day genders could be changed, then it would be appropriate to discuss lineages in relation to that. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 Exactly. As for why the deadliners are against it.... That is what is so baffling, why on earth can we never get the deadliners to work with us on this? to work out a reasonable compromise? And the only two possible answers I've been able to come up with, well.... 1. That they DO feel they have the right to control the dragon's offspring after its left their hands. Despite that being against the rules (and if you read the thread you'll see all kinds of "justifications" on how destroying a dragon's lineage isn't altering the dragon. I, ah, disagree with them. Lots.) 2. They want to be able to destroy something others value. In short, malicious killing. NOT entirely. I repeat that - now that we can go past tombstones - which I for one do regret - I don't care what happens here now. I breed my lineages from my dragons or from those of people I can absolutely trust. But I wanted my little shocker not to show its lineage ever. I'm not breeding him (unless someone WANTS a sibling; that I will do !) And all the dragons involved are on my scroll - I haven't killed anything with offspring. I would have liked to be able to have what I had wanted in the first place... I want MY dragon to show the lineage I had planned for him. He probably isn't ever going to have baybeez.... I have no malicious or greedy anything about him. I just think he's LOVELY ! Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 NOT entirely. I repeat that - now that we can go past tombstones - which I for one do regret - I don't care what happens here now. I breed my lineages from my dragons or from those of people I can absolutely trust. But I wanted my little shocker not to show its lineage ever. I'm not breeding him (unless someone WANTS a sibling; that I will do !) And all the dragons involved are on my scroll - I haven't killed anything with offspring. I would have liked to be able to have what I had wanted in the first place... I want MY dragon to show the lineage I had planned for him. He probably isn't ever going to have baybeez.... I have no malicious or greedy anything about him. I just think he's LOVELY ! I'd been wondering if it were possible to code so that if a line of dead dragons appeared in the lineage, (which would be a long/messy one neatened up, that nobody would be likely to want to see in the original, although they could still click on the tombstones to do that) deadliners view choices would be for showing either a deadline with or without tombstones. Obviously, there'd need to be a 'frozen' indication on any dragon with a 'frozen lineage', so the one without tombstones would have that identification mark to be sure that nobody mistook a deadline without visible tombstones for a short even-gen, or whatever. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 ZzelaBusya, I'll work through your scenario later on, I'm not fully awake yet. No you can't satisfy everyone, but there should be a way to at least satisfy the two major groups. So! Lets think. * This suggestion is not dealing with names right now, and is treating the names as non-existent until the rest of the idea is worked out. I have an idea on how to work that, but its not fully developed and this is by far the most important part. - The owner selects in account settings a general default for all dragons on their scroll. (I'd select Full Ancestry, myself, but ZzelaBusya would probably select Current Status). - There are four options: "Full Ancestry", "Current Status", "Birth Status", "Ancestor's Current Views". Explanation of the differences below - Unless the owner changes the default for a specific dragon, all of their lineages will default to their scroll set goal - Each dragon, in their actions area, can change the default for its own view. For example, I'd have the scroll's normal at Full Ancestry, but I'd change this particular dragon to Current Status: http://dragcave.net/lineage/D5rJA - Every dragon, regardless of what the default is, will have three buttons along the bottom of the lineage view. Any viewer can switch between the four views, but when the dragon is first brought up, the default lineage for that dragon is shown. (So while the Current Status of the above dragon would display, anyone could switch to Full Ancestry to see everything about said dragon. If its ancestors hadn't been deleted from the database.) - Any ancestor where the Current Status and Full Ancestry is different is marked with a star on all lineage views. Ie, the dead dragon's name has a star by it. Full Ancestry - The pedigree of the dragon, basically. - the full, pre-death lineage and image shown with the breed images. So, all known ancestors are shown (even if they are dead) - So, if person B got the silver with one tombstone, and later a 2nd appeared..... No tombstones would show Current Status - all tombstones show, just like now. - its exactly what it says, the current status of the lineage with all dead dragons shown. - So, if person B got the silver with one tombstone, and later a 2nd appeared... Both tombstones would show in this view. Birth Status - This is what the lineage's status was at the time the egg was bred - Since dragons can only be traded when they are eggs or hatchies, that gives at best a two week period when they can be traded. - I used the "as bred" time, because that's at the start of the trading window. - So, if person B got the silver with one tombstone, and later a 2nd appeared..... Only the one tombstone that would have shown in "Current Status" at the moment the dragon was bred would show. Ancestor's Current View - This one is dicey, and needs work. - The idea is to show the lineage the way the ancestors' owners show it. So if tombstone A is on the father's side and the dead dragon's line was for "current status", then that tombstone would show. But if Tombstone B on the mother's side had a default of "Full", then the monther's side would show the full lineage. - erm. Yea, not sure about this one now that I've worked it out... What do you think? C4. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) Okay, I've thought about it for a while more and actually I have a couple of questions/thoughts. I will provide examples and will even illustrate them to make it easier. My apologies, the post is long - I wish we had spoilers but alas. Let's assume that the suggestion gets implemented and imagine some situations. I am sorry if I've phrased something in a weird way, but I've tried to reflect everything as clearly as possible, hope I succeeded. I -1. [Person 1] breeds two pairs of dragons: ------- They trade both eggs to [person 2]. After a while they kill one of the CB Silvers. [Person 2] doesn't like that fact and they use the lineage preservation option in order to have the line being displayed the old way. Then they influence, hatch and grow the 2nd gen Silver and the 2nd gen Sunsong. They breed those two dragons once they grow up, and they cooperate and produce an egg. (1-A) This is how the lineage actually looks like: ----- (1-B) This is how the lineage is displayed according ------------------------------------------------------------------------ to the individual settings of [person 2]: ---------- ---------------------------------- [Person 2] decides to trade that offspring away. They post it in the trading theads. Question 1: How would the lineage look like to other people who view it? Would it look like (1-A) by default, with the (1-B) view being accessible via the special toggle lineage option? Would the lineage be displayed as (1-B), with the normal view being available via the toggle view option? Would it be displayed as (1-B), with the dead Silver being marked with a special sign and the normal (1-A) view being accessible via said toggle view thing? The dragon in question catches the eye of [person 3]. They agree with [person 2], trade and receive that 3rd gen Silver. Now, [person 3] *likes* the fact that the Silver has a dead ancestor, so they choose the normal lineage view and set the display options to (1-A). [Person 2] names their Sunsong. (1-C) This is how the lineage really looks like now: ---------- [Person 3] really, really dislikes that name. And they want to get their 3rd gen Silver with the dead ancestor back, the same view and everything, without that yucky name! Your suggestion is called "display lineage as originally received", which leads to the following... Question 2: What exactly in this case would be counted as "the lineage originally received"? What happens if [person 3] chooses the preserved lineage view? Do they get (1-A), the original lineage, or (1-B), the one they "received" from [person 2] (even though in fact they didn't receive THAT line, to be fair they received a dragon that has lineage (1-A), it's just that [person 2] wants to see their lineages the way I described above)? Clearly the actual lineage [person 3] originally received is (1-A)! But if you are implying that, when a user chooses the past lineage setting, the "saved" lineage setting of the owner of the ancestors should affect the concept of what "originally received" is, then it should probably be (1-B). Any...thoughts? I -2. Some of the people who support the suggestion state that the feature may help people preserve lovely lineages like checkers and such. At the same time they claim that the option is actually helpful for any kind of lineage, no matter if considered pretty by the majority or not. So, according to the first statement, let's assume that the option makes the saved lineage status be passed on onto the next generations. Meaning that, by selecting the option [person 3] gets (1-B). Let's think that it's a good thing because in this example, instead of being fond of dead ancestors, [person 3] loves perfect checkers. So, they receive that 3rd gen Silver from [person 2] and select the preserved lineage thingie, and get their beautiful Silver (1-B). They breed it with another checker, a Sunsong, to produce a Silver egg. [Person 3] trades the egg in question to [person 4]. The evil [person 1] kills their CB Sunsong. *coughs* This is how the lineage looks like.... -----------...in reality (2-A): ---------------------- ...if the feature preserves the -------- ...if the feature doesn't preserve the ------------------------------------------------- settings of each previous owner (2-B): -- settings of the previous owners (2-C): ----- ----- Option 1 - [Person 4] receives the egg. They like checkers, so they happily turn the "preserve lineage" setting on, and get the (2-B) 4th gen checker. Option 2 - There starts the trouble, because [person 4] doesn't give a damn about checkers, he would like to see the line they claim they received - the 4th gen almost-checker with one dead Silver in the line (1-C). Well, they cannot do that, because if they turn the "past" lineage on, they get a 4th gen perfect checker they do not want, and if they leave the actual view then they get a 4th gen with two dead dragons in it (1-A), which for one reason or another they do not find nice. And so according to option 2, [person 4] throws a tantrum, because they cannot get the lineage they want, the glorious (2-C), even though the lineage used to look that way at one point. They say that the option is bad and wrong, and that instead of getting their lovely checkers people should let them have their wonderful lonely dead CB Silver in the line they want to see so much. The argument they would use would be that they do not care about how [person 3] wants to see their dragons, that (2-C) was exactly how they "originally received" the line and therefore they should be given an opportunity to keep it that way. I -3. If by "originally" received you mean that the 3rd gen Silver above would end up as (1-A) in the hands of [person 3] if they selected the preserve option, then I don't get how the whole thing will help with maintaining lineage patterns. [Person 3] will not be able to have a perfect checker despite choosing the past lineage option, and they wouldn't be able to breed any checkers for other people either, as any eggs produced would end up having a dead ancestor anyway. Feel free to swap the dragon characteristics I mentioned above for my examples in any way you like, I just used them that way to show the problem, the point is still the same. II -1. This is a little extra not having to do with the examples above, but I thought to toss that in anyway. If you'd like the preserved option to be passed on to the dragon's progeny (aka to save checkers and other "perfect" lines in case a dead ancestor or something like that suddenly appears), then it may lead to really weird situations, like this inbred checker for example (the codes reflect which dragon is which in this case): The "pass on" circumstance considered, the lineage view above is a result of the following: - A user owns a CB Black and a CB Nebula, they breed them twice and give both offsprings to another user. - The owner of those 2nd gen eggs influences, hatches and grows them. - The CB owner kills both the Black and the Nebula. - The 2nd gen owner leaves the lineage view setting of the Nebula as it is, and changes the settings of the Black to "preserve old view". They breed their 2nd gens and an egg is produced. That's....rather strange, I have to say. Feel free to ignore part II-1, but what I mean with that is: there is NO way to satisfy everyone when it comes to lineages! Tastes differ greatly, and just because one group prefers checkers/perfect lines/stairsteps/etc., it doesn't mean all the others should adapt to it and something should be done about the fact that certain players build lineages and handle dragons in a different manner. There's no way to have a perfect feature that would let people see their lineages as they please, unless you want to take it to a ridiculous level. What are we waiting for then, let's create an in-game lineage editor where you'd be able to replace images, names and so on of the dragons in the line that you do not even own in the first place... Or do you imply that every single lineage page should have a gallery of snapshots to choose from? Don't you think it would require way too much space, seeing that there are countless of possible changes to a lineage, especially a big one? I do not even want to develop any of my examples further, because it's already quite a nightmare. Just imagine what we may get because of that, so much mess and even more lack of agreement between users and their style of playing than we have at the moment. *shrugs* I'm not saying that liking lineages is bad, but it all may really end up being way too messed up if you guys go on with that... I don't think it can be that confusing. Our dragons can't do anything a regular family tree can't, after all. That being said, I'm starting to see more appeal in the "choose any stage of this lineage to view" and "freeze lineage as is" ideas, which should be a bit less tricky. I'll get more info on the former up later. Question 1: That entirely depends on the settings of the breeder. Since the breeder in this case had the egg set to lineage 1-B, 1-B is the original lineage of the egg the trader receives. It's what they saw first, it's what they agreed to pay for and raise, it's what they get. They don't have the option to see 1-A, UNLESS the person who owns 1-B later switches back to the current lineage of 1-A. At that point, the person who received the egg gets to choose between 1-B (their "original" lineage) and 1-A (the "current" lineage, and a change in what they originally had). Question 2: As per above, the person would only have 1-A if they traded for it when it was 1-A. As the breeder in this case had chosen lineage 1-B, though, that's what the person would receive. If a name later changed, they could only choose between 1-B original and 1-B with the name. Now, if two changes happened (ex: the owner of 1-B switches back to 1-A AND changes a name), the person has an option between 1-B and 1-A with a name. They can choose between how it was when they got it and the current, but not stages in between. Although, a few people have thrown around the idea of letting people view any lineage change, which might be interesting, and I'll elaborate on that when I get back from class! Another side note is that the names could always be dropped. Tombstones are in most cases a much bigger deal than name changes. Again, no one can be cheated here! The person saw 1-B and chose to buy / collect 1-B, so that is their original lineage. If people think it might be an issue that someone could inadvertently buy a dragon that really has dead ancestors back in the line, then a few decent options have been thrown around about how those dragons could have a small indicator... but, really, people would always see the lineage they wanted anyway, so I'm not sure it'd be a big deal. Especially since the lineage is true--just because a dragon's dead doesn't mean it wasn't a part of the lineage! Question 3: Person 3 passed an egg on to Person 4 with the lineage set to show the original, right? So Person 4 would never see 2-C, period. They'd be able to choose between 2-B (how it was when bought) and 2-A (how it is currently). The other one would never be seen nor be an option. But since Person 4 paid for the checker, I should hope Person 4 would enjoy what they paid for rather than crying about not being able to see tombstones in it! Question 4: Lol, you got me there. That is indeed how it would look, and it would be strange. Not any more strange though, I think, then having death remove ancestors from family trees entirely. A "perfect" family tree analogue would be to remove deadlines from this point forward, as they never made sense to begin with and could result in such oddities, with certain relatives mentioning "ah yes, we're dead" in spots and not in others. But I think deadlines can be neat and there are certainly a lot of people who enjoy them, so I'd rather have the occasional odd-looking lineage + happy lineage collectors + happy deadline makers than have only logical looking lineages, happy lineage collectors, and disappointed deadline makers. Obviously there's a too-picky point when it comes to lineages but all we're asking is that lineages stay as they are when they were received. The way they looked when we put in hours to swap for them, or fell in love with them and built off them, or thought out lovely descriptions for them based on their pedigree. Is that really so much to ask? That we be able to trade and collaborate without fear that our lineages--which to many of us are one of very few things that make our dragons unique--can up and have their records changed on us? Edited December 6, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 New post rather than working into old one because it's a very different idea. HMMM this made a lot more sense when I was half-asleep so maybe people could help me out here... ;; Working off the idea that lineages with different views show some sort of symbol (probably next to the gender / frozen symbols), and that people can then choose which version to view. Let's say person A trades an egg to person B, then person A kills one of its ancestors. Well, person B is annoyed, so they choose to view the original lineage of the offspring. Person B then breeds an egg for person C. Person C's egg initially shows the lineage of the parents as person B set them. However, person C is also totally free to choose any of the other versions of the parents to determine how their own egg looks. Even if person C was just looking at person B's dragon, while the lineage initially displayed would be the one person B chose to showcase, person C could choose a different option, and person B's dragon would look like that to person C forever after unless they changed how they wanted to view it again. I see a few potential issues here, though: - Would this make hidden deadlines impossible? Aka, would people always be able to see the non-deadline version of a lineage? Maybe this could be changed so that you can only view your dragon's lineage options, starting with the original one you received and including any changes after. - I thought I had another issue but I can't remember it X___x Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 I'm sorry, don't have the time (and energy, and initiative anymore, to be honest, as I am really tired of this topic) to reply to everything even though I want to - I disagree with a lot of things, but I would like to comment on a couple of points for now. I might add more later. Question 1: That entirely depends on the settings of the breeder. Since the breeder in this case had the egg set to lineage 1-B, 1-B is the original lineage of the egg the trader receives. It's what they saw first, it's what they agreed to pay for and raise, it's what they get. They don't have the option to see 1-A, UNLESS the person who owns 1-B later switches back to the current lineage of 1-A. At that point, the person who received the egg gets to choose between 1-B (their "original" lineage) and 1-A (the "current" lineage, and a change in what they originally had). Really? Then how is that not "falsifying information" about lines that I mentioned earlier? I don't know, if you want to lie to yourself, pretend a dragon in the lineage isn't dead, isn't renamed or anything, and are not content enough with making a screenshot beforehand to have it saved, by all means go ahead suggesting that. It makes no sense to me whatsoever, but meh. But going on providing false information about the dragon's ancestry to people around? That seems like cheating to me, especially if you want to trade that dragon! Even if there'd be an option to toggle the view it just seems plain wrong to me. "Hey, I have a 3rd gen Tinsel up for trade and want shinies for it. Yeah, it has a killed 2nd gen ancestor and a renamed CB ancestor, but who cares, I won't tell that to you anyway and let's pretend the line is just the same way it used to be." Seriously? A lineage is not a snapshhot. It's not a piece of paper that lies by you that only you can view. It's a feature that lets EVERYONE access your dragon's ancestry in order to find out valid information about it. If that information is purposely displayed incorrectly, what's the point? That isn't fair at all. Basically you are implying that upon receiving a lineaged dragon with ancestors you do not own, you do not only change the settings in order to view the lineage the wrong way that you want yourself, you also take control over the whole lineage and pass the false image over to the people who get offsprings, without even giving them the chance to get the line they received back in case it got changed later? How is the wish of the first owner to see what they want any more important than the wish of the person who got an offspring, if both lineage snapshots took place? I am sorry, but in case of question 1, I'd say that 1-B isn't the original lineage! It's an altered lineage, a false lineage that the owner created an illusion of for themselves, nothing more. If other people want to go on viewing the same outdated lineage, then it should at least be a matter of their choice! In that case you contradict yourself, because what you mention isn't "originally received". When that person traded for the egg in question, they were able to view both lineage options, right? Or not? If they did, then why do you say "it's what they saw first, it's what they agreed to pay for and raise"? Maybe they traded for that dragon because they liked its original view, the normal lineage with a dead dragon and no names? And later, once it got altered, they wanted to restore that view? That basically means that the only person who can fully use the "lineage restoration" feature is the one who owns the dragon whose *closest* ancestor is killed, because if we go further, then owners and their wishes concerning the lineage end up depending on what said owner wants and does to their lineage view - isn't that concept exactly what you are trying to fight against? Also, how is that not cheating then, creating an impression that the lineage is still in its old state, which isn't true any longer, and making others view it the same way too, more or less, even the owners of the offsprings if they want to restore something else in the line that they *also witnessed in the line* when they got the dragon? That's so blatant I'm in a loss of words. In my eyes that's worse than "ruining" (even that's technically not even ruining, it isn't even defined that way anywhere) lineages by killing ancestory you're talking about, because it's just lying and trying to cover the lies in a beautiful manner, and in addition to that trying to pass it to other people as much as possible. Although, a few people have thrown around the idea of letting people view any lineage change, which might be interesting, and I'll elaborate on that when I get back from class! Another side note is that the names could always be dropped. Tombstones are in most cases a much bigger deal than name changes. Imagine a 17th gen inbred Black with all sorts of dragon breeds, combos, inbreeding and the like in it. If you would like a lineage to have at least several different views attatched to it (I'm not even talking about the "record every single lineage change and display all the steps" thingie), then in the line in question, the lineage page of every freaking dragon in the Black's ancestry would end up having those options. Those pages would most likely never even be viewed. There are thousands and thousands of dragons like the Black I mentioned on DC, some of which belong to users who do not care about lines at all, some being frozen et cetera. And yeah, before you claim that the site wouldn't need to save any lineage snapshots having to do with such dragons, then please tell me how you think the system would need to determine whether a dragon is worthy of being recorded that way or not? The game treats bred dragons the same way, value is given by players according to their personal tastes so it's no argument. Just imagine the amounts of unnecessary data in the system ending up being stored for no purpose! Just because a bunch of players want to "restore" their stairstep Shimmers.... The site provides you with a line viewer - what you are trying to do is turn it into some weird lineage gallery feature with endless snapshots, variations and old, invalid information everywhere. As long as the game doesn't differentiate between "nice" lineages and "ugly" lineages, I fail to see how a suggestion like this makes any sense. Obviously there's a too-picky point when it comes to lineages but all we're asking is that lineages stay as they are when they were received. The way they looked when we put in hours to swap for them, or fell in love with them and built off them, or thought out lovely descriptions for them based on their pedigree. Is that really so much to ask? That we be able to trade and collaborate without fear that our lineages--which to many of us are one of very few things that make our dragons unique--can up and have their records changed on us? Have to admit such emotional statements and questions do not affect me, so I'll personally say the following: yes, it is too much to ask. Otherwise your idea would face a lot less protest. If you would like to hear the reasons why it is too much to ask, please see the previous pages, they contain a lot of valid arguments from people who are against this suggestion. Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) Really? Then how is that not "falsifying information" about lines that I mentioned earlier? That isn't fair at all. Basically you are implying that upon receiving a lineaged dragon with ancestors you do not own, you do not only change the settings in order to view the lineage the wrong way that you want yourself, you also take control over the whole lineage and pass the false image over to the people who get offsprings, without even giving them the chance to get the line they received back in case it got changed later? How is the wish of the first owner to see what they want any more important than the wish of the person who got an offspring, if both lineage snapshots took place? I am sorry, but in case of question 1, I'd say that 1-B isn't the original lineage! It's an altered lineage, a false lineage that the owner created an illusion of for themselves, nothing more. If other people want to go on viewing the same outdated lineage, then it should at least be a matter of their choice! In that case you contradict yourself, because what you mention isn't "originally received". When that person traded for the egg in question, they were able to view both lineage options, right? Or not? If they did, then why do you say "it's what they saw first, it's what they agreed to pay for and raise"? Maybe they traded for that dragon because they liked its original view, the normal lineage with a dead dragon and no names? And later, once it got altered, they wanted to restore that view? That basically means that the only person who can fully use the "lineage restoration" feature is the one who owns the dragon whose *closest* ancestor is killed, because if we go further, then owners and their wishes concerning the lineage end up depending on what said owner wants and does to their lineage view - isn't that concept exactly what you are trying to fight against? Also, how is that not cheating then, creating an impression that the lineage is still in its old state, which isn't true any longer, and making others view it the same way too, more or less, even the owners of the offsprings if they want to restore something else in the line that they *also witnessed in the line* when they got the dragon? That's so blatant I'm in a loss of words. In my eyes that's worse than "ruining" (even that's technically not even ruining, it isn't even defined that way anywhere) lineages by killing ancestory you're talking about, because it's just lying and trying to cover the lies in a beautiful manner, and in addition to that trying to pass it to other people as much as possible. [...] The site provides you with a line viewer - what you are trying to do is turn it into some weird lineage gallery feature with endless snapshots, variations and old, invalid information everywhere. As long as the game doesn't differentiate between "nice" lineages and "ugly" lineages, I fail to see how a suggestion like this makes any sense. Have to admit such emotional statements and questions do not affect me, so I'll personally say the following: yes, it is too much to ask. Otherwise your idea would face a lot less protest. If you would like to hear the reasons why it is too much to ask, please see the previous pages, they contain a lot of valid arguments from people who are against this suggestion. The purpose of a lineage tree is to show a lineage. I don't see how showing what dragons a dragon is related to is in any way falsifying information. Cutting out dragons that die, with all their ancestors, is making it look like they didn't exist. That is falsifying things. Showing an accurate family tree is not. The lineage should not exist as a bulletin board of who's dead and who's alive... O___o I'm very confused. People get what they pay for. They can't trade for something / collect something and regret not having the other view, because... they never saw the other view. They have the control to show the original line, what they paid for, or any changes after. How can someone possibly feel cheated about getting exactly what they were looking at? What you seem to be saying is people might be angry about finding out an ancestor is dead when they didn't know it was dead, but again, that's how real family trees work -- they show relatives, not alive / deceased status. Also not sure why a dead relative would be a big deal when you could see the lineage in full anyway. Are people you gift / trade with really going to check several dozen dragons to ensure they're all alive because they'll be deeply upset if one isn't...? I don't think so. Uh. A line viewer? Um. Isn't that a family tree? Which should show a lineage, not a "hey this dragon died so you can no longer see its relatives, even though they are related to your dragon." The information isn't invalid, it's the true family tree. How is that a lie? It's not. If you show me a family tree with your dead great grandma, that isn't you lying to me about her. She did exist. It's a family tree, nothing more. Same is true here. As for how the information is stored, I admit I'm no coding buff, but I've seen a few people mention that having time stamps on death (which we already do) would make it easier for the system. Rather than saving every single lineage, it saves time stamps of deaths, and when you ask it to bring up how a lineage was at point whenever it runs the equations and slaps up which dragons were or weren't alive before that time. I've worked in excel, so this seems possible, but again I won't know until a coding pro says so. Deadlines are the oddity, here. Just like the old drop-to-AP trade style. It's outdated and weird to remove dragons and their ancestors from lineages just because they die. Unfortunately, a lot of people decided to build lineages around that oddity, so I'd still like to find a solution that ensures lineage protection and allows for deadlines. Obviously we're still figuring out the details, but people just saying lineages don't matter / suck it up / this is too much work isn't really helping to fix things, now is it? Because if people don't want to look for a solution to both sides, then the only feasible option to ensure lineages work as, well, lineages is to stop deadlines from this point forward. I can't think of a single other family tree system in which dead relatives get shuffled off the original into a series of other papers... it's a very backwards system... To sum up my thoughts, I would like deadlines to stay around, but not at the expense of changing how family trees are supposed to work. Which has been my goal here and over in the Research BSA as well. Edited December 6, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy Share this post Link to post
Posted December 6, 2013 (edited) O___o I'm very confused. People get what they pay for. They can't trade for something / collect something and regret not having the other view, because... they never saw the other view. They have the control to show the original line, what they paid for, or any changes after. How can someone possibly feel cheated about getting exactly what they were looking at? I think your view on what "original" is is a bit strange... If you trade a 3rd gen Silver I posted above, and you have it set to (1-B), I would still be able to see the normal lineage (1-A), right? I trade for that dragon and keep the normal lineage view, not your "preserved" one. The normal lineage (1-A) gets altered because you name one of the 2nd gen dragons, and I would like to get its original view back. Why cannot I do that? Why all I can restore is something that you changed, not something that originally existed at one point? And if you mean that the person who wants the dragon doesn't even get to see the REAL lineage behind the "preservation", then yeah, it does seem like cheating to me. Edited December 6, 2013 by ZzelaBusya Share this post Link to post
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