"Display lineage as originally received"

[Fuzzbucket]

I have a few that were done from siblings and they all display the same. They can't be read as inbred because the info is gone. I can't even tell which were the siblings now.

 

Was looking at the link C4 provided from way back (I was pretty ill and not playing at that time lol) and found this:

 

From Fuzz in reply to TJ:

 

 

rofl rofl rofl.  So....

Yes - and I did also say in this thread that I actually don't care that much any more, now that the REAL deadlines are gone.

 

That is what I see with my own deadline - a deadline (sadly with the name showing !_ that I can click on the tombstones (and of course I only need to click on two ) But some of the arguments seem so - OTT... I can't resist replying...

 

Not least over the trade value issue. I did NOT say in the other thread that I valued lineages for that. Cuz I don't. And I tend to think that "trade value" should be a reason for ANYTHING being done to anything.

 

But as I also just said - I would love to see a compromise.

 

@whitebaron - with whom improbably I am still in agreement - my 8th EG grey didn't take that long (though I DO have some in that I was gifted (didn't have to trade - I just had a note in my sig ! - by people here and on another forum, whom I trust, as it did involve CB shadows !

Edited December 5, 2013 by fuzzbucket

[purplehaze]

Honestly, i'm really disappointed in this being brought up by the same people all over and over again, especially since TRADE VALUE seems to be one of the driving factors.

 

If you want perfect control over the whole lineage, build everything yourself.

if it is supposed to be high-gen, just take your time.

That might work quite well for most things, but if I want a lineage built on Tinsels it'll never happen. Or CB golds, either, since in all my years of playing this game I have never been able to catch one.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Honestly, i'm really disappointed in this being brought up by the same people all over and over again, especially since TRADE VALUE seems to be one of the driving factors.

 

If you want perfect control over the whole lineage, build everything yourself.

if it is supposed to be high-gen, just take your time.

It keeps being brought up because it's still an issue. Not to mention that the current situation does squat for either side. People who work on deadlines are frustrated because the messy remains can still be seen. People who work on normal lines are upset because they still can get stuck with tombstones. About the only ones the current situation favors are a few select individuals (I think we can all think of at least one...) who enjoy ruining the looks and value of other's lineages out of spite. People who get bent out of shape and kill a dragon because they auto-abandoned a dragon and the new owner didn't return it. People who quit the game and decide to screw over everyone they've ever traded with before they go. Those are the people in power right now.

 

And is it really such a horrible thing for people to want to ensure what they pay for remains valuable? Go buy a collection of rare items or cards that you plan to resell, then find out the old owner somehow altered your objects after you bought them so that they're now useless. Go on. See how happy that makes you. Yes, obviously DC is just a game, but the time and energy invested is real. A person who joins an even gen project in which everyone agrees not to kill the dragons, then finds out a 3rd gen in the line has been killed... someone who works hard to get a CB Metal to trade for a rare Tinsel... these people have every right to be upset when what they've worked for is so meaninglessly altered on them.

 

Plus, now that dead things show tombstones, most lineages can be proven as what they are anyway. It's just a matter of how they look. And even then, it's really the even gen lineages, the pretty checkers and such, that are most at risk. Things that don't really have any trade value, but are very beautiful, and can in some ways be hurt even more by a dead ancestor than can most rare lines. The rarest things, from what I've seen, tend to be stairstep lines. The loss of one ancestor from them is obviously frustrating to look at it, but so much more so are the massive gaps that can be created in even gen lineages when a higher gen ancestor gets the ax.

 

And yes, right now people have to work on lineages entirely alone to ensure their safety. But is that really a standard we want to cling to? Is a game in which you can't collaborate / trade with people without being scared of losing what you've worked to get / create really the ideal solution? It seems to me like a sorry state that should be worked on to improve.

 

Also heck, even if you think lineages / trade value / whatever don't matter, they clearly matter to some.

 

Is it such a big deal to allow something that benefits some people (preserving beloved lineages) without hurting anyone (by still allowing people to kill their dragons / create deadlines / whatever they wish to their heart's content)?

 

Because seriously, that's the main argument against this I'm seeing. "Trade values / lineages don't matter / aren't a part of the dragon." But clearly they are very valuable to some.

 

So why. Whyyy. Is it such a big deal that you must prevent it. When it would make some people very happy. And cause no anguish that I can see. I have seen not one person on the opposing side get deeply upset or offended about how this would impact them. Because it wouldn't.

 

Not to mention how illogical it all is! It's been said over and over again that having dead dragons = loss of all ancestry information makes no sense. Yes, it's a game about collecting magical dragons, but since BSAs / dragon descriptions / so many other things are now emphasized as "this must make sense," why shouldn't this make some sort of sense, too?

 

I also very much fail to see how showing dead ancestors in a lineage is somehow "deceitful." Is showing someone a family tree with your dead great grandfather on it deceitful? He really did exist, and he really was related to you, wasn't he? I'd say slashing him and all his ancestors out of the picture once he dies is a lot more deceptive.

Edited December 5, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Rosedamai]

I just want to point out that "it keeps being brought up" isn't THAT compelling an argument to me. There are always people who want CB golds through some BSA, or other ways than catching, or want frills/bright pinks....just because lots of people want it doesn't mean it's right or even, has merit.

[WraithZephyr]

Right on.

 

OT - but this was a deadline made from dragons on my scroll, bred for this purpose. I would still love to know if it would have worked if the goal posts hadn't moved so close to the end... I would never have passed on an offspring without the warning that it was 25th gen and one of the most inbred in the whole game (as cited by a fan site owner last year - not just the NUMBER but the pattern, I was told : )

as far as the inbreed check on that lineage of yours.. As long as the codes for the dead dragons continue to exist for those dead dragons, the lineage will be shown as inbred. Had the way deceased dragons are shown in lineages not been altered, then your dragon would have ceased to be an inbred once the codes were dumped from the database to be recycled (usually happened at the 2 week period, though sometimes could take longer).

 

Way back in the day I happened to catch twin 2nd gen golds. The owner of the CB gold and CB green decided to kill the parents off for some reason about a year later. Once rare-rare became allowable again, I started breeding them together so technically their offspring are inbred but because there are no longer any codes associated with the parents, they come up clean on the inbred checkers. Of course people will assume that the offspring are from a deadline due to horribly messy lineages which is not the case.

[Rosedamai]

In other words, if you get a dragon and later on one of its ancestors is killed / loses its name / has its name changed, you won't see this change. 

Wait what???

 

If I change the name of a dragon for a reason, it's because I want it to STAY THAT WAY. The name change part does not make sense. If my grandfather changes his name I can't keep calling him by what his name was and that would be disrespectful of me.

 

For example, all my dragons have the same suffix behind them. It's there for a reason. I do NOT want people changing the way it looks on their scroll because they presume to know what's better for my dragon than me.

 

ETA:

 

And what if someone else takes that name when there is a name loss? Do I have the rights to, say, keep calling my dragons' name as "dreer" when the dragon by that name is something else?

 

Also a lot of the cb tinsel/shimmerscale owners have changed the name of their cb prizes for whatever reason-I remember one changed to "I prefer the old golds"-and that didn't make any changes as to its trading value because people knew what it still was.

 

I dunno about the dead dragons part but the name part seems HIGHLY DISRESPECTFUL to me.

Edited December 5, 2013 by ylangylang

[Syphoneira]

The point of the lineage viewer is to show the ancestors of a certain dragon, the current state of how things are, the breed, name and other characteristics of the parents/grandparents/etc. What's the point in the whole option if, as a result of this suggestion being implemented, it would display *false information* having to do with the ancestry? It kinda contradicts the whole purpose of the viewer, I think!

 

And not only do some of you want to give users an option to change the way a lineage is displayed for themselves, you are implying that this setting should affect *others*. Seriously, how does that make any sense?

 

 

And yeah, I have to agree that "dragon" doesn't equal "lineage" at all. By changing the state of dragons that have offsprings, people do not affect *dragons* of others, they only affect lines.

 

My ancestry is mine, but I am not it. I'm an individual who has parents, grandparents etc. but that doesn't make them belong to me, lol.

 

If my mother decides to change her name on paper, I don't see how it would be fair of me to disregard that change and claim her name to still be the same, and on top of that to make  people around think that way. I don't like providing real life analogies, but I guess it's somewhat similar to this. If something in a dragon is changed, then I think it would only be fair if that info was updated on the lineages of its offsprings, otherwise the lineage view feature ends up providing outdated intofmation about it, it falsifies it.

 

 

 

 

Hi, ZzelaBusya,

 

the point we're making that it's only fair to allow players to preserve the history and beauty of the lineage of the dragon the owner has, so that it's not lost forever.

 

In the example I gave of my family's genealogical charts, one branch was reproduced by a Great-Uncle and Great-Aunt in England, with a copy made for each of us (at the time) young-uns - we're all on that, but any children had by any of us since aren't, and neither are names changed by marriage since, because it was a snapshot in time of that branch *as it was*.

 

Nobody would be 'claiming that everything is the same and that nothing had changed', and the lineage would need to be marked as 'frozen', obviously, (and yes, it would be ideal to have any dead dragons marked as deceased, or to have the names of dragons having had name changes bolded, or some such indication - anyone clicking on such a dragon in the lineage would be able to see the current name, but, in example, dragons named after parents would still have their names make sense, because still in context) but the lineage would still be as originally intended to appear and offspring would still be a worthy gift or trade.

 

This without in any way affecting the person from whom the dragon was obtained, who'd be able to do as s/he pleased without adversely affecting each person who'd obtained offspring - and those having descendents of these - who would then each have the option of 'freezing' the lineage as it was and was intended to be when acquired, to protect themselves against having something they valued ruined.

 

It's bad enough for people who have put hours or days into 'paying off' a dragon, but when people who are not fabulous catchers may have spent weeks or months intensively doing so, and may have been on a list for a year or more to get that dragon, only to have it - and all babies gifted/traded away, as with all of THEIR offspring - wrecked, it can be devastating, all the way down the line.

 

This is merely basic player protection against fraud, lol.

 

 

I have no idea why anyone would feel that it's important for anyone else to be deprived by what (edit: some owners) may choose to do with their dragons after trading/abandoning offspring and would want to ensure that (edit: other owners) had no option of retaining what may have cost them a lot of time and effort, (perhaps hundreds of dollars worth, if translated into what they would have been paid for working that many hours, over time) because they don't want an original lineage preserved on dragons they don't own (edit: but others do).

 

No, it's not likely that we'll get this option, but I do fail to understand why people will argue for a right for people to be defrauded by others with no protection to be allowed at all, should it ever become a possibility.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Syphoneira

[WraithZephyr]

That's contradictory. You have no control over what happens on other's scrolls... Yet you can change how they view their dragon's lineage records? Hate to break it to you, but... that's controlling what happens on someone else's scroll. The lineage of my dragons is a part of my dragons. You have no right to edit those records on me.

It is not contradictory. The dragons in the lineage are not *all* on your scroll and therefore not under your control. The lineage viewer is not your scroll. The lineage viewer is not your actual dragons. The lineage viewer is just a convenient way to look at the ancestry and nothing more.

[edwardelricfreak]

Go buy a collection of rare items or cards that you plan to resell, then find out the old owner somehow altered your objects after you bought them so that they're now useless. Go on. See how happy that makes you.

That is not a proper analogy.

 

And besides, if it's THEIR dragon, THEY can kill it if they want. The dragon on your scroll is not directly affected. You dragon isn't lost, isn't renamed, isn't killed, and isn't abandoned. THAT is what the rule applies to. No one can take control of your scroll and do those things. The other person isn't coming onto your scroll and intentionally messing with your dragon.

 

If someone kills your great great great (still living) grandfather, you might be sad, but you are not physically harmed (unless you start harming yourself). You might be mentally/emotionally scarred, but not physically. That person did nothing to you directly.

 

If your mom got her name changed, it still does nothing to YOU.

 

Yes, people HAVE gotten quite picky about their dragons, imo. It seems like lineages are the only thing that make a dragon worth something any more, not just their rarity alone. If it were just their rarity, then people would be accepting the messiest of Golds and only because they're rare. I've heard of people having a hard time giving away HOLLIES just because they didn't have "nice-looking" or "interesting" lineages.

[pinkgothic]

build everything yourself.

Just a quick side-note (I'm sure you're personally aware of it, but some others reading the thread may not, off-hand): For discontinued dragons, old holiday dragons and for prize dragons, this isn't possible.

[Syphoneira]

That is not a proper analogy.

 

And besides, if it's THEIR dragon, THEY can kill it if they want. The dragon on your scroll is not directly affected. You dragon isn't lost, isn't renamed, isn't killed, and isn't abandoned. THAT is what the rule applies to. No one can take control of your scroll and do those things. The other person isn't coming onto your scroll and intentionally messing with your dragon.

 

If someone kills your great great great (still living) grandfather, you might be sad, but you are not physically harmed (unless you start harming yourself). You might be mentally/emotionally scarred, but not physically. That person did nothing to you directly.

 

If your mom got her name changed, it still does nothing to YOU.

 

Yes, people HAVE gotten quite picky about their dragons, imo. It seems like lineages are the only thing that make a dragon worth something any more, not just their rarity alone. If it were just their rarity, then people would be accepting the messiest of Golds and only because they're rare. I've heard of people having a hard time giving away HOLLIES just because they didn't have "nice-looking" or "interesting" lineages.

 

 

You see, that's the thing.

 

Lineage appearances are essential to bred dragons, for possibly most players who have been here for any length of time.

 

The lineage might be as simple (and, typically, expensive) as a 2nd or 3rd gen Shimmer or Tinsel, or as complex as some multi-gen patterns I've seen, which must have taken years to complete.

 

As pinkgothic points out, retired dragons are not possible to obtain, and where these - as they must - form the base-line, years of work can be destroyed by, in example, one attempt at a zombification.

 

It's the owner's right to do as they please with their dragons, but when the lineage (generally accepted throughout DC as being important to value placed on bred dragons, even by those who themselves may place little or no value on lineages themselves and can't understand it) is destroyed, so is a lot of work/time invested, as is the joy felt by those able to make a particularly nice gift to others, bringing them joy in turn, with all involved then saddened at having that entire line ruined, and the gifts made worthless.

 

The lineage (whether CB or bred) IS a part of each dragon and typically a factor in its acquisition, being typically essential to most owners, most often because it's pretty, and a perfect lineage of various types can be almost a form of art.

 

Even with metallics, a CB or nicely bred 2nd gen has (descending with lineage length) value, where bred metallics over 5th gen cannot be posted on a certain trade thread, because their value is held to have diminished.

 

Having a 'dead' in the line trashes the value, in most cases.

 

This may not make sense to some, but in DC, lineage determines the value generally placed on any dragon type, and giving people an opportunity to preserve original lineage appearances, or to create ones that some players value from a messy/long-lineaged and generally 'worthless' line by creating dead lines, makes sense to many.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Wait what???

 

If I change the name of a dragon for a reason, it's because I want it to STAY THAT WAY. The name change part does not make sense. If my grandfather changes his name I can't keep calling him by what his name was and that would be disrespectful of me.

 

For example, all my dragons have the same suffix behind them. It's there for a reason. I do NOT want people changing the way it looks on their scroll because they presume to know what's better for my dragon than me.

 

ETA:

 

And what if someone else takes that name when there is a name loss? Do I have the rights to, say, keep calling my dragons' name as "dreer" when the dragon by that name is something else?

 

Also a lot of the cb tinsel/shimmerscale owners have changed the name of their cb prizes for whatever reason-I remember one changed to "I prefer the old golds"-and that didn't make any changes as to its trading value because people knew what it still was.

 

I dunno about the dead dragons part but the name part seems HIGHLY DISRESPECTFUL to me.

But the lineage is a snapshot. You would be calling your grandfather by his new name (aka calling a dragon by its new name on its page), but old ancestry records and family trees preserved by your family (aka dragon lineage records) wouldn't magically update, would they? New ones would show the change (aka non-frozen records), but not the old.

 

There's a few reasons I think it'd be nice:

 

1) Name harassment: there are people who auto-abandon eggs and then rename the parents nasty or even threatening things. I'm pretty sure renaming parents to "GIVE THIS EGG BACK" "OR I KILL THE PARENTS" is making a threat. Other times, again, people who are quitting the game might give their dragons a bunch of rude, offensive names to spite the people who own the offspring. Having a name lock feature would prevent this.

 

2) Lineage integrity: sometimes, really famous dragons lose their names! Midas Dorkface lost his at one point (and, indeed, never got it back--he's "The Original Midas Dorkface" now). While that name was lost, identifying real Dorkfaces required being familiar with his code, which I reckon not many people remember offhand. Name locking would prevent a lot of that confusion.

 

3) Name loss: if someone leaves the site, it's kind of a shame that all their dragons lose their names. I've seen some gorgeous high gen lineages that suddenly looked very squished, and lost all their connection to the lineage project in question, when their names vanished. That being said, I'm very much in favor of eventual name loss--with a unique name system, there has to be some recycling going on--but it'd be nice if there was a way to also keep a copy of how it used to look. The codes would still be unique, so as long as people clicked the dragons rather than typing in the name link, all should be well (Although, names no longer seem to be lost due to inactivity, so this might not be a concern at the moment).

 

That being said! My main concern here is how dead dragons are dealt with. As per the OP, the name bit can always be taken out of it's a big deal. Another thing to consider could be marking dead dragons with (deceased) as the name.

Edited December 5, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Rosedamai]

But the lineage is a snapshot. You would be calling your grandfather by his new name (aka calling a dragon by its new name on its page), but old ancestry records and family trees preserved by your family (aka dragon lineage records) wouldn't magically update, would they? New ones would show the change (aka non-frozen records), but not the old.

 

There's a few reasons I think it'd be nice:

 

1) Name harassment: there are people who auto-abandon eggs and then rename the parents nasty or even threatening things. I'm pretty sure renaming parents to "GIVE THIS EGG BACK" "OR I KILL THE PARENTS" is making a threat. Other times, again, people who are quitting the game might give their dragons a bunch of rude, offensive names to spite the people who own the offspring. Having a name lock feature would prevent this.

 

2) Lineage integrity: sometimes, really famous dragons lose their names! Midas Dorkface lost his at one point (and, indeed, never got it back--he's "The Original Midas Dorkface" now). While that name was lost, identifying real Dorkfaces required being familiar with his code, which I reckon not many people remember offhand. Name locking would prevent a lot of that confusion.

 

3) Name loss: if someone leaves the site, it's kind of a shame that all their dragons lose their names. I've seen some gorgeous high gen lineages that suddenly looked very squished, and lost all their connection to the lineage project in question, when their names vanished. That being said, I'm very much in favor of eventual name loss--with a unique name system, there has to be some recycling going on--but it'd be nice if there was a way to also keep a copy of how it used to look. The codes would still be unique, so as long as people clicked the dragons rather than typing in the name link, all should be well (Although, names no longer seem to be lost due to inactivity, so this might not be a concern at the moment).

 

That being said! My main concern here is how dead dragons are dealt with. As per the OP, the name bit can always be taken out of it's a big deal. Another thing to consider could be marking dead dragons with (deceased) as the name.

No, I still feel this offensive as yes, people DO change your grandfather's name in historic records. A friend of mine got her name changed and now she's listed as her new name in family records. That's how most governments deal with it, unless your government is transphobic and won't recognize it when you transition. Same with silly names, I can change my name to somethimg ridiculous if I want, and also, in some countries I can change my family name as well.

 

1. Their dragon, their wishes. As far as I know rude names like writing as your dragon's name leads to either your scroll being burnt or your dragon killed, etc. And yeah it is a threat when someone names their dragons like "GIVE THIS BACK OR ELSE" but firstly, it's the only thing they can do since we do not have a messaging system in-game and secondly, lol, if you're going to be hard-hearted, who cares, their loss.

 

2. Not really. The original dorkface and shallynar were gold and white dragons respectively. The current ones are I think either a flamingo/bbw and something else.

 

3. They don't CARE for the dragons any more. The only good this would do would be to save their dragons names somewhere, but the site does warn that after a limited time period your dragons will lose their names. Or has this changed? In that case your argument doesnt hold any water.

 

To he very frank, this name change at least suggest that you care more about how certain dragons, that aren't even yours, look like more than the dragon's owner themselves and that again is super disrespectful from my pov. What if I continued to call your mother her old name?

[Tawanda001]

Personally I don't care much one way or the other, but...

This -> http://dragcave.net/lineage/73DVe pretty much looks to me just the same as this -> http://dragcave.net/lineage/V8TtF as far as a lineage and or trade value goes. The first is actually more interesting to me because it is fun to look past the tombstones if I choose to, of course I always have the option to choose not to do so too. (I'm always in favor of having more choices, not fewer!)

 

What I don't understand about this whole argument is that the people who are basically saying 'buyer beware' because ancestry isn't important are some of the same people who trade bred eggs basing the trade value on the lineage. Come on, how can you ask for rares or multiple CB hatchies in exchange for a PB thuwed or a rare shimmerkin or other hard to get bred dragons if you really don't place importance on what a lineage looks like? You are not just trading a dragon, you are trading a lineage.

[cyradis4]

Who said this ever? No one has said it that I'm aware of... Dead dragons have their ancestors removed anyway currently and sometimes when they still have names, you can still click them to view their ancestors...so they aren't gone forever.

 

 

No one said THAT either. They said that lineages are out of your control unless every dragon is fully owned by you. Since an ancestor is someone else's, if they kill their own dragon, that's THEIR decision to make. No one said "sucks to be you" OR that they didn't care that they hurt you.

 

We said that you accept pretty lineages at your own risk, and if something happens, you will have to deal with it because that other dragon isn't yours. But no one ever used that language you described.

edwardelricfreak:

Yes, the original look of the lineage IS gone.

And the saving of the dead dragon lineages is fairly new, and drew a huge uproar from the deadliners when it happened because they didn't want anyone to see the original linage of the dragon. For ANY reason. Read the BSA thread I linked earlier, it has some spectacular posts in it, assuming they weren't deleted.

 

Yes, I put it bluntly and strongly. But as I've said before, this argument crops up on a regular basis.

This thread hasn't seen any of the "I don't want anyone to see behind the tombstone ever for any reason!!!" that other, similar threads have had (the BSA thread I linked earlier had those kind of posts in it originally, don't know if it still does). Instead, people have just said they want to keep things the way they are, destroyed lineages and all, and if someone used dragon killing to maliciously affect you? Read the thread again, and you'll hear it again and again: that's the danger of trading with others, and we like it that way.

 

In short, so long as the images of all of the ancestors (living and dead) are removed from the lineage for every dead dragon and replaced with a single tombstone, no exceptions made, anyone who trades for non-CB dragons, or even picks one up from the AP, runs the risk of having their new dragon's lineage destroyed.

 

This is affecting many people's game play, who have lineages destroyed. Or who loath the sight of tombstones and won't stand for one being in one of their dragon's lineages. They have had other people affect their play style, which is a big no-no in DC.

By saying this is a non-issue, you are telling that hurt person that their pain / anguish / time means nothing, and that the way they play the game is wrong. That they should have "known better".

That other people have the right to hurt another person, and that there's no reason to discuss potential ways to change it so the hurt party has less of a chance of being hurt.

Or so that the affected person can play the game the way they want it.

 

But as I said in my post earlier.... Unless the deadliners are willing to discus some way to protect at least some lineages, then there is no way to compromise.

 

In short (and this will likely cause an uproar, it did last time I said it, and I'm not directing it at anyone specific), but it is my own personal view, how I see the posts of others. How your words are being taken by me.

The only reason I can think of to support keeping things like they are, with not even a discussion of compromise, is if you have malicious intent.

Or want to preserve your ability to take malicious actions.

 

Why? Suggestions like this will not affect responsible deadliners. And being against against change for change's sake is, to me, not a valid reason. And saying that TJ has better things to do isn't valid either. TJ knows what TJ has to do, so let him decide what is worth his time, and help us present him with the best ideas we can. Saying it can add stress to the server is also an excuse. Let TJ decide what adds strain to the server.

 

I'm sorry if you don't like that, but that is how, to me, you are presenting yourself. All of the reasons against have, to me, been invalid excuses to not even discuss a compromise. And the only reason I can think of to not make some sort of change is malicious.

 

C4.

Edited December 6, 2013 by cyradis4

[edwardelricfreak]

I never said it was a non-issue. I never said their time and effort meant nothing, or that the way they play is wrong. NONE of those points were EVER said.

 

You're twisting the words being said and inferring an entirely different argument.

[cyradis4]

I never said it was a non-issue. I never said their time and effort meant nothing, or that the way they play is wrong. NONE of those points were EVER said.

 

You're twisting the words being said and inferring an entirely different argument.

You personally may never have said it, but others have most definitely implied it.

 

And if they didn't mean to imply it? Then they should stop saying "no change" and start discussing ways we can satisfy both parties.

 

C4.

Edited December 6, 2013 by cyradis4

[edwardelricfreak]

I never even meant what I said as those things. I DON'T think it's nice to purposefully ruin someone's lineage, BUT I also don't think it makes sense to permanently freeze one, and even less to pass it on to a hatchling.

 

That's why I suggested screenshots. I know they can be doctored, but if you're an honest person you wouldn't do that, and certainly not for your own precious dragons.

 

And whether this suggestion is passed or not won't affect the trade value at all. The lineage is still PERMANENTLY ruined, even if you can't see it. That's why, if you want to keep an image of it as you first got it, take the screenshot. Put it somewhere safe, like a folder.

 

Even if this suggestion is passed, all it's going to do is basically an on-site version of a screenshot, and I don't think it should be permanent.

 

Maybe you can have a "lineage history" that records a dragon's lineage as soon as you get it, and whenever a change of any sort is made (an ancestor dying, and ancestor being named), you can see the different changes that occurred (which it sounds like this suggestion might have been going for this, but didn't quite explain properly). Otherwise, if you view lineage, it's just the most current state. But I'm against "freezing" a lineage otherwise.

 

I don't really get how "no change" means "I hate your lineages and want to allow people to destroy them" but okay I guess...

Edited December 6, 2013 by edwardelricfreak

[cyradis4]

Maybe you can have a "lineage history" that records a dragon's lineage as soon as you get it, and whenever a change of any sort is made (an ancestor dying, and ancestor being named), you can see the different changes that occurred (which it sounds like this suggestion might have been going for this, but didn't quite explain properly). Otherwise, if you view lineage, it's just the most current state. But I'm against "freezing" a lineage otherwise.

That's the spirit! Lets get some actual discussion of various ideas going!

 

Now, I actually like the idea of a lineage history, so you can view how it looks in different ways. Its certainly an idea to present to TJ! (But people will say its "coding intensive", though I suspect that TJ already has all he needs to be able to do this).

 

So, lets say for instance, there is a special page you can go to, where you can see all the changes that have been made to your dragon's lineage.

 

An example (as you can see, someone in the ancestry was a very unhappy camper! But this dragon is wild, so I can link to it, and is hence forth called Wild Dragon!) :

http://dragcave.net/lineage/RDVMN

 

So! You'd have at least two options to choose from, to view the lineage:

- The current deadline

- The one where Santa was still alive

 

I choose the 2nd, and everyone who views Wild Dragon will see the lineage with Santa's picture and name.

Any offspring of Wild Dragon? The new owner will have to select the default lineage view for that dragon.

 

Now, lets think.

 

How about, no matter what lineage view you have, there is always say, a red star after the dragon's name? To indicate that there are other views where the lineage looks different and that it is that dragon that was changed?

 

Let the ideas roll! (or the arguments. it'll probably be arguments, but I'd prefer discussion and ideas, brainstorming is fun!)

 

Edit: erm. Names. I'm in favor of always keeping the current names, but I know others will want to be able to view the old ones. So it could go either way. Maybe have names that are not current in red? Or blue or green? or a different font type?

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited December 6, 2013 by cyradis4

[Sarah864]

I think I'm a bit lost...correct me if I'm wrong but basically you're trying to do a lineage toggle feature.

 

Lineage toggle feature = see ancestry of dragon + ancestry of dragon without death

 

This feature would only be available to those with the offspring/dragon in question.

 

The main arguments are:

 

1) Trade value. A non-tombstone tinsel is currently (if im not mistaken) worth more than one with. This new feature may change that or place even more value on lineages.

 

2) My dragon my rules. Viewing past lineage goes against what is actually there, thereby messing with the intentions of the original breeder.

 

The main reasons for this are:

 

1) Stopping malicious trades where a lineage is offered and then altered after the trade.

 

2) Preventing hard work in building lineages from going to waste.

 

The main technical issues are:

 

1) Names might be built up.

 

2) Coding could be complicated.

 

Did I get everything?

[cyradis4]

Those are the broad points, yes.

 

The malicious one isn't just for trades, though. Its for AP eggs as well. In fact, some of the most spectacular ones have happened because an egg was auto-AP'ed.

 

Who has the ability to toggle is open to negotiation.

 

My own view is, I'd like there to be a default view set by a particular dragon's owner (perhaps with some sign that changes have been made, even if the lineage is showing the deadlines). And then let people visiting the lineage shift how they want the dragon viewed by themselves.

 

Some people want a default view which everyone has to view for that one dragon and no other views can be seen.

 

Some people want the current view, with the dead dragon showing, and no other options.

 

 

 

And despite what you might get from this thread, the vast majority of such problems aren't about trade value: They are about destroyed lineages that work was put into that are now destoryed. Except for a few notable exceptions (Santa himself, a 2nd gen Tinsel, a few others), the most commonly effected lineages are those that aren't worth a ton, but are very time intensive, hard to make, and hard to replace: long even gens, or lines with discontinued ancestors in specific patterns.

 

Like this lineage:

http://dragcave.net/lineage/2AZ5p

 

That lineage, with both discontinued dragons, which is exactly 12 generations long, would be ruined by one tombstone. And while not worth a lot, trade wise, is near impossible to replace / repair.

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited December 6, 2013 by cyradis4

[WraithZephyr]

Stop insinuating that people are ruining other people's game play because of what they chose to personally do to their own dragons. They've done nothing wrong. The people who are overly obsessed with lineage views need to get a grip. If someone is going to be that persnickety over how a lineage looks and then cry foul when something changes outside of their control, then they should not be picking up eggs from the AP or trading for dragons that they did not produce from scratch. Your dragon's ancestry is not yours to control unless you created it all from scratch and kept the results of that work of labor. If people insist on picking up other people's dragon's offspring and are still that concerned about what might happen to the lineage that they have no control over, then take a screen shot and save the file to your computer.

Edited December 6, 2013 by WraithZephyr

[cyradis4]

Stop insinuating that people are ruining other people's game play because of what they chose to personally do to their own dragons. They've done nothing wrong. The people who are overly obsessed with lineage views need to get a grip. If someone is going to be that persnickety over how a lineage looks and then cry foul when something changes outside of their control, then they should not be picking up eggs from the AP or trading for dragons that they did not produce from scratch. Your dragon's ancestry is not yours to control unless you created it all from scratch and kept the results of that work of labor. If people insist on picking up other people's dragon's offspring and are still that concerned about what might happen to the lineage that they have no control over, then take a screen shot and save the file to your computer.

I don't have to insinuate anything and I didn't, I stated it right out in the open! There are people posting here who've stated that their game play has been negatively affected by malicious killing.

 

In fact, that's the reason people maliciously kill dragons: to ruin another person's game play.

 

If killing said dragon didn't affect the other person, why then kill it? Like the owners of that Shimmer and Cavern Lurker who said if the auto-ed egg wasn't returned to them they'd kill the Lurker.

 

Other than that, I'm not going to respond further to your comment. Such beliefs, and an unwillingness to even consider compromise when you ARE affecting other people, are why every single thread about this has devolved into major arguments.

 

Oh and by the way, except where its physically impossible to do so, I always do my own lineages, because I'm not willing to give you the ability to affect my game play.

 

C4.

[Syphoneira]

No, I still feel this offensive as yes, people DO change your grandfather's name in historic records. A friend of mine got her name changed and now she's listed as her new name in family records. That's how most governments deal with it, unless your government is transphobic and won't recognize it when you transition. Same with silly names, I can change my name to somethimg ridiculous if I want, and also, in some countries I can change my family name as well.

 

1. Their dragon, their wishes. As far as I know rude names like writing as your dragon's name leads to either your scroll being burnt or your dragon killed, etc. And yeah it is a threat when someone names their dragons like "GIVE THIS BACK OR ELSE" but firstly, it's the only thing they can do since we do not have a messaging system in-game and secondly, lol, if you're going to be hard-hearted, who cares, their loss.

 

2. Not really. The original dorkface and shallynar were gold and white dragons respectively. The current ones are I think either a flamingo/bbw and something else.

 

3. They don't CARE for the dragons any more. The only good this would do would be to save their dragons names somewhere, but the site does warn that after a limited time period your dragons will lose their names. Or has this changed? In that case your argument doesnt hold any water.

 

To he very frank, this name change at least suggest that you care more about how certain dragons, that aren't even yours, look like more than the dragon's owner themselves and that again is super disrespectful from my pov. What if I continued to call your mother her old name?

 

 

 

Hi, ylangylang,

 

I suspect that your friend didn't have her name magically changed on her original paper/plastic birth certificate or any letters she or her parents may have written grandma as a child or whatever - historical documents record what was placed on them at the time.

 

Your friend had new records made with her new name on, or electronic ones altered to reflect her name change; the change of her name did not alter any physical (rather than electronic) record existing which was created prior to the change, while her previous name had still been in use.

 

 

`1. Yes, the wishes of the owners control what they can do with their own dragons - that holds true for everyone.

 

Since the value placed on each lineage determines the value of the dragons - and whatever trade value demanded by the breeder for offspring then owned by someone else - it's the lineage as much as the spite type being 'sold' by the trader which passes into the possession of the person then entitled to do as s/he pleases with his/her own dragon, as are those gaining possession over offspring of that dragon, and so forth.

 

That includes the owner of offspring being entitled to retain what s/he may have paid rather a lot for - a lineaged dragon of a certain type.

 

And if the owners of offspring were to gain a right to retain that lineage despite whatever the breeder may do to his/her dragons, as is his/her right, then this maintains equal rights for each dragon owner to not have their dragons lineage and value unwontedly changed by someone else, regardless of their feelings in the matter.

 

 

2. If you were taking a class where a paper was required on some famous historical figure, would a paper on Ben Franklin, your neighbour up the road, be considered to qualify?

 

 

3. It doesn't matter whether somebody else doesn't care about THEIR dragons anymore, this is not about them.

 

A LOT of good would be done for individuals having descendents of such dragons which they own and care about, because people could preserve a beautiful image of a lineage on a dragon that matters to them.

 

We're arguing for fairness regarding dragon owners being able to preserve lineages forming the reason they obtained dragons in the first place, and on which their value - emotional and/or trade - depends, while you seem to be arguing other things which do not always involve the same issues?

 

 

While the odds may be very much against our ever gaining such an option, the concept of, and respect for, the principles of fairness form a valid and important point worth supporting, and we are never going to be convinced otherwise.

 

 

To be very frank, we care about our own dragons and the way their lineages look, and about the value they therefore have for people to whom we've gifted/were going to gift or with whom we've traded, or were planning to trade - this has nothing to do with other people's rights to do as they please over their dragons and everything to do with EVERYONE's rights to do as they please with their own dragons, including retain the lineages with which they came.

 

People are not suggesting calling dragons OR people by their old names, they are suggesting an option enabling people to retain a historical record of what lineage they wanted and got, and on which the value of their dragons may depend.

 

We accept the fact that EVERYBODY has a right to do with their own dragons as they please - why do you feel that these rights must be restricted to only the top tiers among dragon owners?

[Tawanda001]

Stop insinuating that people are ruining other people's game play because of what they chose to personally do to their own dragons. They've done nothing wrong. 

I thought that this argument was not so much about what people do to their own dragons. Kill 'em, release them, name them fugly names if you like.

I don't think people are as upset over that as they are over the fact they are being told they can't view the dragons history (which is all a lineage is IMO) in any way other than the way that dragons owner wishes.

 

I guess I just don't get the whole 'it's my dragon and you can only see it's ancestry the way I want you to' argument. Shouldn't the whole 'once it's off your scroll you have no say so' go both ways?

 

How is taking a screenshot and saving it that much different than toggling to a view that shows the same thing? Other than having to go offsite to view it, which would be a pain, why can't I just view the same thing from my own scroll if that's what I choose?

(and how many deadliners actually visit their progeny, to even see how the scroll owner would have the view set?)