ANSWERED:Suggestions to improve the raffle

[Saami]

My problem isn't with the raffles themselves. Honestly, I couldn't care less if I never had a cb prize. I wanted one, sure. But I'm not going to cry if I don't ever get one. My problem is with how the trading market views them. I'm not a big trader, but I know that the only way I'm going to get everything I want is through trading, because I am at catching stuff in the cave. Without some kind of change to cheapen their prices, then I'm never going to be able to afford anything. That is what I'm getting frustrated with, not the lack of winning. It's making playing the game for me next to impossible. That's not fun and not having fun equals one less player.

[Syphoneira]

I'm well aware I'm in the minority, and I'm well aware no one is going to listen to what I have to say, but frankly reading all of this and stopping myself from responding just because of that is stupid.

 

I wouldn't mind if the numbers went up. I would fully support the number of raffle winners being raised JUST BECAUSE of the amount of drama-llama it creates every single year from people who *don't* win.

 

And that's the catch. NO amount of "raising the numbers" will EVER satisfy forumers, because there will STILL be a large amount of people who don't win and go around whining and threatening to leave the game and saying how unfair it is etc etc. No matter what the numbers are. If there are losers, there will be drama-llama. That's just how it goes, especially on this forum.

 

From what I've read in the News thread and what I've read here, the basic arguments seem to be that the number of winners is too small a ratio considering the player-numbers (which we have absolutely no clue about and TJ himself has said people are simply assuming and that's not a good idea).

 

Another argument is the "this game is a collecting game" argument, which is a great argument at face value and fairly worthless when it comes down to what people actually *mean* by that. Yes, DC is a collecting game. We collect dragons. Many people want to collect every breed there is. Even though that's not actually possible because of Frills and Bright Pinks. But this particular argument seems to stem solely on *CAVE BRED* collectors. The raffle isn't fair because DC is a collecting game and all these people who don't win will never be able to have a CB Prize Dragon. ..... Except no one was ever promised a CB *anything*. CB collecting is a type of playstyle, nothing more. Is it frustrating when you can't attain your scroll-goals for whatever reason, of course. But maybe, just maybe, CB-collectors should try to understand that the raffles need to be an exception to their scroll-goals, because the *vast* majority of players *won't* be able to get a CB Prize Dragon. It's not just you. It's not just CB-collectors. And we aren't entitled to a CB-everything, and we shouldn't expect it.

 

The other argument I see most often is that Prize Winners are completely unfair because they "charge" soooooo much for 2-gens of their dragon, so the raffle numbers should be raised so that there are more Prize Winners and, basically, more people to ask for trades. There are reasons some Prize Winners never tell people they won, I've read about all the trade-harassing. And frankly, if they have something that *everyone* wants, they have every right to "charge" whatever the heck they want for it. Have you seen those eBay auctions where people spend *hundreds of thousands* of dollars for clothes worn by famous people? If the demand is high, you can ask whatever you want. And that's their right. Is it frustrating, of course! But it's their right. And it's EXACTLY the same thing that happened during that old gold-draught; People who were lucky enough to find/breed a gold put it out for trade asking for *waaaay* more then a gold would be worth nowadays.

 

tl;dr: I'd support raffle numbers increasing, but I personally don't think there is anything wrong with how things are done right now.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi, Marie!

 

I think some confusion lies in the fact that most of us are not arguing that we personally aren't winning, but that there are too few available CB Prizes to breed low-gen offspring - especially at current low/slow rates - to produce 2nd gens for more than a relatively few people per year; and that some are pointing out that it ought to be possible for people to obtain lines suitable for actual lineage breeding, which is, undeniably, something that matters very much to many people on this forum.

 

 

When an entire dragon-collecting site is being switched over to a trading site where'

 

people make the largest offers they can fulful in the hope of getting on scarce 2nd gen lists, driving up prices further on scarce lower-gen Prizes

 

and when the owners often - quite logically - happily take these large offers, because they have scarce CB Prizes

 

so that dragons generally are becoming valued by trade worth in relation to one particular and very scarce category of dragon - lower-gen Prizes

 

and people for some time often didn't even bother to post their regular dragons in trade for other ordinary dragons, because they assumed that other people will be interested only in the scarce lower-gen Prizes

 

and the bulk of people are shut out of 'high-level finance trading' now forming the bulk of trading interest, because of the scarcity of lower-gen Prizes

 

and it's more difficult/impossible than ever for them to catch or otherwise obtain also the CB Golds, CB Coppers and other dragons being snatched up at far greater rates because being the only sprites 'valuable enough' - even en masse - to trade, in most cases, for lower-gen Prizes

 

and when people winning have actually quit because the demand for offspring was too much for them because of the scarcity of lower-gen Prizes

 

what area of the site is not being directly, strongly and - for most - negatively affected by the scarcity of lower-gen Prizes?

 

 

I do have to question as to how much actual drama-llama is going on here?

 

I've noticed maybe two or three newer people saying they'd leave because they hadn't won, and these are, I should think, very young.

 

Maybe I've missed or forgotten some, but what I'm seeing is, overall, a reasonable, reasoning and reasoned discussion about a problem with scarcity which is seen and felt as such by quite a large portion of the forum.

 

This is something with which others are free to disagree, but the imbalance is appalling to many, and it's a major factor changing the site and spoiling much of the fun for many who came here to collect dragons, rather than to deal with a virtual Wall St. economy.

 

The problem is not that the owners will take huge trades, given the offers they're getting; the problem is not people trying to get on lists by making huge offers; the problem is the scarcity creating this situation, which is what we're hoping will be addressed by some means.

 

Especially since prices seem to be continuing to rise, in great part because the Prize dragons reproduce so poorly that lists are taking forever to fill and people often have already added too many people to their slow-moving lists as it is, often out of sympathy and a wish to help.

 

 

We hope that the infusion of new Prizes will help, especially if increased Prize reproduction and the potential for multi-clutches is introduced for CBs/low-gens, but this does need to be addressed.

 

Many of us adore our dragons and have long been literally addicted to DC, but it's getting less like DC and more like the stock market all the time - due to the myriad adverse effects of extreme scarcity, among a group of fanatic collectors, of low-gen Prize dragons.

 

 

The fact remains that we do come here to have fun and collect dragons - we're stating our priorities and why we're here.

 

The site is becoming a market rotating around one scarce group of low-gen Prizes, and we'd like DC to remain about the dragons themselves, not just their prices - and to have the community not split into haves and have-nots to the degree it's now become.

[CNR4806]

No raffles at all

 

This was my thinking as well, the sheer amount of drama caused by these raffles far outweighes whatever good they may bring to the cave.

 

However, considering that this can of worm has already been opened, I'm afraid we're already past the point of no return, at least for simply terminating the raffles forever and do nothing else. The low-gen prizes will stay ultra-rare and nigh-unreachable for average players (read: not god-clickers like 42 or a fellow low-gen prize owner) if we stop here, and as such the prizes' mere presence will continue to distort the trade market.

 

If we're to discontinue the raffle, then we'll either need some kind of replacement event to distribute more prizes to the playerbase, or at the very, very least neuter all existing prize dragons, otherwise we're just going to make the problem worse.

Edited January 13, 2014 by CNR4806

[Mysfytt]

I am liking Suggestion #3 and #4

 

#3 - if there was a common chromatic colored prize sprite that either was released or appeared as 1 CB 'participation prize' on everyone's scroll, it would mean everyone would have the sprite of the prize, if not the color, and it would keep the metallic colors rare so they are still valued as a prize.

 

Having more than one CB chromatic if it were a sudden mass release for a one off as the raffle is announced (still runs the risk of people whining because they were not there for those days) but it would allow interesting lineages still.

 

If its just the participation 1 CB per scroll people can trade 2nd gens, since everyone will have one they shouldn't be that hard to get.

 

#4 - understanding of course that multi clutch would make the ratios so out of proportion - but yes it would be nice to get a mix of metal and kin eggs in a clutch instead of just one of either, since often both are sought after. This does run the risk of getting 4 kin though - and I seriously doubt TJ would implement a 4 metallic chance on all but it would still be a chance. But like the explanation says, you can get more 2nd gens out there because a Cb owner can breed more from the parent.

[DarkEternity]

I'm not sure if creating a new generation of shiny and metallic frills is the wisest thing to do and I'd not want to be the one breaking the news to winners and DCers alike that their dragons are now shiny paperweights.

Edited January 13, 2014 by DarkEternity

[Fuzzbucket]

Most people want to win, so naturally when they DON'T win they're going to USUALLY think that the win rate is not satisfactory.

 

Just because everyone has a chance of winning doesn't mean that everyone should win.

This, so very this.

 

NO win rate that does not include the person asking about it is ever going to be totally satisfactory to that person. I am deeply aggrieved that I have entered - must be over 500 at the very least - raffles n my time,and have won a CD exactly once.

And I also have friends who seem to win in every second raffle they enter. It's the luck of the DRAW - simple as that.

 

I'm not sure if creating a new generation of shiny and metallic frills is the wisest thing to do and I'd not want to be the one breaking the news to winners and DCers alike that their dragons are now shiny paperweights.

This too

 

The cave does not have a healthy virtual economy.

Indeed not. But why TREAT it as an economy ? I have exactly ONCE offered in advance, in order to get something. I offered to breed from my scroll to get a mate for a dragon. So far I haven't got one (see my sig if anyone can help ! I am after a tinsel FAIL, not a tinsel !)

 

Most of my good stuff that I didn't catch was gifted out of the blue. Two CB golds. A 4th gen from Jewel - to name but two. People here are very generous.

 

If we all stop making outrageous offers, things may settle down. Meanwhile - sure, more reliable breeding might help, but in the end, the only thing to do to carry on having fun would be to play on, breeding other lineages instead.

Edited January 13, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[angelicdragonpuppy]

@Fuzz: Many of us do rely heavily on trading, though, so answers like "ignore the economy" or "everyone stop offering crazy things and prices will drop" don't really help.

 

Surprisingly clear minded at 6:30 AM, and my final conclusion is again that the more limited the options in a collecting game the less fun it is. Giving just an extremely small part of the user base singular access to a market-dominating breed ruins the collecting and building through hard work spirit and, for many, adds bitter feelings and reminders of the unbalanced real world to a game that was once pretty even for everyone. Even slow players had shots at making Neglecteds... but no amount of dedication ensures a CB or even 2g Prize.

[Sheriziya]

Wow, the news about the raffle certainly spiked new interest in this thread

 

I see a lot of suggestions and "complaints" coming by so I thought it was good to look at what was the base of this thread and what our current "complaints" about the raffle are. And than proceed to possible solutions (once we've already seen and the new ones from the last couple of days).

Mind you, I say complaints, but it's the reason why people think the raffle doesn't work as intended. Mind you, this has become a looooooooong post. Sorry about that, but I thought it would be a good idea to try and put it all together again.

 

What's the base of this thread?

The thread started because the raffle:

• leads to mountains of PMs to the prize dragon winners [and a certain amount of harassment]
• leaves most of the users only dreaming of getting a prize dragon, their only hope a long gen months, or even a year or more in the future.

New "complaints" coming up (here or elsewhere):

• The amount of prize winners is not satisfactory
• The ratio of breeding results from prize dragons is not good (not enough prize dragons are being produced)
• Creating lineages with prize dragons is hard because the lineage creator can't get the dragons s/he wants
• Fear of (shiny) hatchies from multi clutches growing up through the AP (yes, we have already seen this happening, please check this thread for more information) and going to the wild instead of ending up on someone's scroll
• Balance between low-gen and high-gen prize dragons for breeders both in obtaining and creating lineages
• Not enough CB Prize dragons to get good lineages
• Did I miss anything?

Which is all culminating a trademarket which has gone insane, if I may deduce that from the comments. I don't have any experience in the trademarket, so I can't really say anything about it. This leads to the a general feeling amongst a (big?) part of our community:

Although DC was original a fun collectables games, it's become a trading game where it's become hard to actually collect every dragon you want.

 

Our concerns & Suggestions

I'm trying to get through the above points, so bare with me....

 

The amount of prize winners is not satisfactory

Since TJ has said he won't say anything about the win-rate and this thread is going to be closed if we keep talking about that alone, I thought it better to look back at our earlier suggestions and see if we can come up with a combined suggestion of which we all (or most of us) think might be a solution for the above problems/complaints, let's just call them concerns.

 

Bucketload of PM's

I think Amazon Warrior's Guide has helped several prize winners this year. I don't know how it will end, but maybe those who have come forward as prizewinners might be able to tell us if the guide is indeed enough? That would be a solution for at least one of our concerns.

 

The other problems

These all seem related, so I'll try to combine them.

 

Looking back at the original suggestions, we can conclude TJ has already implemented one of our suggestions with a twist: Increase the number of prize dragons given in the raffle.

He's given both Tinsels and Shimmer-scales with this last raffle. So, there will be unexpectedly new Tinsel blood in the community (regardless whether people will actually breed with them, mind you!) and there will be more Shimmer-scale blood (which was expected by several people) in the community.

In total (including this year) there are/will be in the community:

• 20 CB Gold Tinsels
• 40 CB Silver Tinsels
• 60 CB Bronze Tinsels
• 20 CB Gold Shimmer-Scales
• 40 CB Silver Shimmer-Scales
• 60 CB Bronze Shimmer-Scales

This helps with one of our concerns: We've got more of the same prize dragons in our community! Now the Shimmer-scales and Tinsels have the same amount of CB's released into the community. Will that help in the trademarket? We'll have to see.

 

I think one of the things which might help is Multiclutching per Olympe's suggestion (yes, I'm coming down from the idea I don't want multiclutching, if it helps in getting a solution for the problems.....). Of course, we'll have a chance of 4 prize dragons, 1 kin and 3 prize dragons, 2 kins and 2 prize dragons, 3 kins and 1 prize dragons, 4 kins. BUT..... that will also help in lineage building. After all, there are several people who WANT the kins because of a lineage. This solution will at least give a higher chance of getting more prize dragon offspring into the community.

Just as a reminder, Olympe's suggestion was:

CB: Chance of breeding up to 4 eggs.

2nd gen: Chance of breeding up to 3 eggs.

3rd gen: Chance of breeding up to 2 eggs.

4th gen and higher: no multi-clutches possible (unless mated to a holiday dragon during its breeding season)

This still leaves the question about ratios. I have no insight in that. TJ, perhaps this is a question you can answer?: Is the perceived problem (prize dragons not breeding/producing/producing fails) indeed a ratio problem (i.e. they should produce more prize dragons but they don't at the moment), or does it work as it's intended (i.e. prize dragons are rare like silvers and golds and will keep producing like they do)? I can imagine it's the latter and we perceive it as a problem because there are only the above mentioned numbers of CB prize dragons. On the other side, if it's because the dragons are supposed to be rare, you might expect the dragons produce better for a while until the ratios are/seem similar to the golds and silvers.

 

One of the concerns with multiclutching is that hatchies may grow up through the AP. There's an active discussion and experiment about that problem here. That thread discusses solutions for that particular problem, so I'd rather not take it in here, despite the relation the two solution may have.

I'm aware of the fact that there high-gen breeders who think the value of their high-gen dragons might become lower, but I honestly wonder about that. With more 2nd, 3rd and 4th gens you can even build bigger (and perhaps even better?) lineages, or at least I can imagine that. But I have to be honest: I'm not that big of a lineage builder nor a trader yet.

 

I still don't think a consolation prize will help, especially for the breeders. They'll want the prize dragon and not a dull/other colored prize dragon because of the color combinations they can make with it.

 

Scenarios & Solutions

Our other concerns (mainly related to breeding and creating lineages) will hang on 2 scenarios, or at least the way I see it. Let me explain:

One of the questions I immediately had, is: will we have a new prize dragon with the next raffle, now that the Shimmer-scales and Tinsels are on an equal amount of CB released dragons? Or will we get both Tinsels and Shimmer-scales again in the next raffle (whenever that raffle will be)?

I guess we'll have to wait and see what TJ will do with a next raffle, but since we don't know that, we might as well look at two scenarios for solutions (mind you, this is all assumption!!! not based on any insight knowledge or whatsoever, as I don't have any ):

Scenario 1:

With new raffles we'll always get Tinsels and Shimmer-scales

Scenario 2:

With the next raffle we'll get a new prize dragon

 

Scenario 1 With new raffles we'll always get Tinsels and Shimmer-scales

This would help with:

• New prize winners will less and less become bombarded with PM's (although that might have already been tackled, like I said earlier)

• Getting more fresh blood into the pool of prize dragons

• More possibilities for low-gen prize dragons getting into circulation and with that, on the long run, becoming cheaper (and thus more players getting a chance at getting a prize dragon)

• Creating new lineages becomes slowly easier

Do we still need a solution? It depends partly, I think, on the answer about the ratios. If the ratios work as they are supposed to, I guess lots of people will still feel unsatisfied because the dragons are still rare. So.... Multiclutching (per Olympe's suggestion) & More raffles might be a solution.

 

Scenario 2 With the next raffle we'll get a new prize dragon

This would help with:

• Getting more of those awesome sprites out! (yes, totally unrelated, but with the list of 500+ completed sprites out there with some awesome spriters that could easily become prize dragons imho......)

• Possibility to get another species besides Western and Eastern dragons.

Do we need a solution? Heck, yeah! Or at least I think so imho. So, what's the solution? A combination of several suggestion, I think.

New suggestion

Base:

• More raffles to spread the joy of the new prize dragons as well as the old (see the rest of the suggestion)

• Olympe's suggestion for the multiclutching:

  CB: Chance of breeding up to 4 eggs.

  2nd gen: Chance of breeding up to 3 eggs.

  3rd gen: Chance of breeding up to 2 eggs.

  4th gen and higher: no multi-clutches possible (unless mated to a holiday dragon during its breeding season)

• Higher success rate for breeding prize dragons as reports suggest that the success rate has gone down.

• Adjustment to API/hatcheries to deny access to the eggs/hatchlings on the AP to prevent prize dragons from growing up through the AP and going into the wild instead of on someone's scroll. Or whatever other solution comes out of this thread.

Prize dragons released during the years following this last raffle:

Raffle 1: special dragon 1 for prizes in raffle, Shimmer-scales and Tinsels retire and become available for HM as CB.

Raffle 2: special dragon 1 for prizes in raffle, Shimmer-Scales and Tinsels are still retired and available for HM as CB

Raffle 3: special dragon 2 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 1 retires and becomes available for HM as CB, Shimmer-Scales and Tinsels become available from now on as a rare dragon in the cave.

Raffle 4: special dragon 2 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 1 is still retired and available for HM as CB.

Raffle 5: Special dragon 3 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 1 becomes available from now on as a rare dragon in the cave. Special dragon 2 becomes available for HM as CB

Raffle 6: Special dragon 3 for prizes in raffle, Special dragon 2 is still available for HM as CB

Raffle 7: Special dragon 4 for prizes in raffle, special dragon 2 becomes available from now on as a rare dragon in the cave, special dragon 3 becomes available for HM as CB.

Etc.

Will this be a solution for all our concerns? I don't know, I hope so. With the prize dragons becoming rare in the cave on the long run they still are worth trading AND they become available for lineage building and collecting (what this game was all about in the beginning, right?). People who were "working" the trade market will still be able to profit from their prizes, although it slowly becomes less. I see that as a positive development, as the trade market wil, albeit slowly, become more balanced again. New blood for lineages is also a good thing, I think. So, all in all it might help with the trademarket, lineage building, collecting becomes collecting again and prizewinners will be less bombarded with PM's.

 

So.....after reading this way too long post, what do you all think?

[whitebaron]

I think that you (universal to thread) have no clue about real rare breeding.

Shimmers and Tinsels produce fine, as a total population. Blusangs, Silvers, Golds, and to some extent trios, are the very hard to breed. If I breed all my shimmers, I get at least 20-25% of Shimmer eggs. The statistical sample is large enough to say that Shimmers do NOT follow the rare breedings. There is just so many shimmers around that still get bred, on all gens, that it might seem like they never produce.

 

I bred Silver x Crimson for over 300 times. I have one 2g silver to show for it. Try to beat that with shimmers. You can't. they breed a lot better.

Edited January 13, 2014 by whitebaron

[Sheriziya]

Thanks, Whitebaron, for this excellent insight information I'm glad to see Shimmers have a good producing rate! Personally I love them

 

Anyway, what this will mean for the suggestion I made, I don't know at the moment. I've to leave in a few minutes, so I have no time to go into it now. I'll check in when I'm back from work in about 4 or five hours.......

[Princess_Pinkie]

I think that you (universal to thread) have no clue about real rare breeding.

Shimmers and Tinsels produce fine, as a total population. Blusangs, Silvers, Golds, and to some extent trios, are the very hard to breed. If I breed all my shimmers, I get at least 20-25% of Shimmer eggs. The statistical sample is large enough to say that Shimmers do NOT follow the rare breedings. There is just so many shimmers around that still get bred, on all gens, that it might seem like they never produce.

 

I bred Silver x Crimson for over 300 times. I have one 2g silver to show for it. Try to beat that with shimmers. You can't. they breed a lot better.

my silvers and golds breed better than my shimmers. it sounds like you have bad luck. my silvers almost always produce eggs and i get golds more often than my 50 shimmers produce eggs.

[Amazon_warrior]

I think that you (universal to thread) have no clue about real rare breeding.

Shimmers and Tinsels produce fine, as a total population. Blusangs, Silvers, Golds, and to some extent trios, are the very hard to breed. If I breed all my shimmers, I get at least 20-25% of Shimmer eggs. The statistical sample is large enough to say that Shimmers do NOT follow the rare breedings. There is just so many shimmers around that still get bred, on all gens, that it might seem like they never produce.

 

I bred Silver x Crimson for over 300 times. I have one 2g silver to show for it. Try to beat that with shimmers. You can't. they breed a lot better.

I think to an extent it depends on what's paired with what, but in the main I think this is about right. Prizes breed more like uncommons than rares. But what everyone WANTS is for them to breed like commons but trade like rares. You can have your cake OR you can eat it, people, but you really can't have both!

[Fuzzbucket]

But what everyone WANTS is for them to breed like commons but trade like rares. You can have your cake OR you can eat it, people, but you really can't have both!

Very much this

[LaHaine]

I think to an extent it depends on what's paired with what, but in the main I think this is about right.  Prizes breed more like uncommons than rares.  But what everyone WANTS is for them to breed like commons but trade like rares.  You can have your cake OR you can eat it, people, but you really can't have both!

I don't want them to be rare. The high prices are just silly. I support better breeding/more raffles/more winners exactly to improve the chances of getting low gens and lowering the crazy prices so everyone has a chance at them.

 

edit: It doesn't make sense to ask for both, like you said

Edited January 13, 2014 by LaHaine

[cyradis4]

All dragons shift in their breeding rates. Recently, my Ices have been breeding like rares, but the Silvers were breeding like uncommons. I don't expect it to last. The other week, I got a TON of Silver tinsels, but didn't get a single Gold or Bronze tinsel egg (from lots of breedings), and didn't get a single shimmer.

 

Breeding fluctuates, so you CAN NOT say "x breed breeds like a rare", because it changes on an regular basis.

 

It took me and a group of friends of mine something like a MONTH to breed 1 Ice from an Ice x Trihorn. The AP was seeing 30+ Trihorn eggs each week during that time. But I bred my other Ices to Silvers? After 16 breedings, I had 2 Ice and 1 Silver. Odds and ratios play no favorites, and just because one person is having good luck doesn't mean everyone is. Over the summer, I was breeding over 100 Tinsels each week, and getting 0 Tinsels. That's right, ZERO out of 100+ breedings. All summer. Talk about irritating! I was getting a couple of Silver and Golds each week, despite having far fewer of them.

 

But that happens, because the ratios shift with time. So I really dislike hearing "tinsels breed like rares" or "tinsels breed like uncommons", because it TOTALLY depends on WHEN you are breeding and on that most fickle of mistresses: Lady Luck. And the difference between uncommon and rare is such a fine line, and depends on perspective.

 

Having said that.... I'd really like for Tinsels and Shimmers to turn into an uncommon in the Cave, and I would REALLY LOVE a Black "participation" prize. After all, "loosers" on Christmas get coal.

 

Cheers!

C4.

[whitebaron]

I don't want them to be rare. The high prices are just silly. I support better breeding/more raffles/more winners exactly to improve the chances of getting low gens and lowering the crazy prices so everyone has a chance at them.

I want silvers and especially female golds to breed like commons, too.

 

but hey - they are also meant to be rares, prizes breeding like uncommons is a positive anyway.

[DragonNighthowler]

No raffles, and lets release the breed as CB commons to the cave. Problem solved.

 

Why commons? To stop all this drama nonsense. Eggs for everyone, problem solved. You guys want them to create lineages, right? So the more, the merrier.

 

I couldn't care less about shimmers and tinsels. They are practically worthless. Their lineage building is as nonexistent as the GoN's because, unless you have a CB, you're set with what you have. If it is a Silver-Pink lineage, you just can't go and breed it to a marrow and ruin the lineage.

Even gens have no order at all, they are so multicolored they are practically messy even gens.

Arrow gens imply a dead end. They look pretty, but I'd have to mirror it which is far more work than what they are worth.

 

So, summarizing, I'm not going to mortage myself through a full year to get a second gen of a lineage with such little possibilities. I have over 70 other breeds to do the trick, and which are far more fun and interesting than what tinsels can ever provide.

 

I once collected first raffle tinsels, and I might get all lineages simply because it was a goal I set myself, but I'm not working too hard towards it

But the next raffle tinsels, I completely ignored them, and as for the shimmers, I collected all I need.

 

There is a funny thing, you, the ones complaining, are the ones putting that prize. You, who put up a trade for four CB metals, a second gen holly and whatever else, are inflating the prize. I can't hunt CB metals, I should complain that you are putting such expectations on tinsel breeders, and you're shifting the market towards rare for rare trading, that you're making it impossible for the common hunter to be able to trade for metallics any more.

Hordes of collectors busting in to get a place at a rare, shinny thing's list, only because of its exclusivity. The same mentality that caused a full market and economic collapse in my country, and a 25% of unemployment...

[whitebaron]

dragonnighthowler: if it was a common breed in the cave, people would complain because metallics should not be as common. or golds and silvers should be more common too.

[Guillotine]

I don't want them to be rare. The high prices are just silly. I support better breeding/more raffles/more winners exactly to improve the chances of getting low gens and lowering the crazy prices so everyone has a chance at them.

This. I would literally rather that they breed like commons and go for next to nothing then have the current state of the market continue (and given the extreme scarcity of CBs, I strongly doubt low gens would stop being considered rare, especially if we're talking hard-to-find lines).

[LaHaine]

I want silvers and especially female golds to breed like commons, too.

 

but hey - they are also meant to be rares, prizes breeding like uncommons is a positive anyway.

You didn't understand, I was telling amazon_warrior I don't want both, it doesn't make sense to ask for more prizes and still treat them as "rares", because their prices WILL drop with the increase of their population. And I'm fine with that increase, it's what people want. No more dramas towards the winners. Like I said many times before, it sounds silly to me to give all lineages control over a breed to 10 people per year. Even if they are supposed to be rare, because they are prizes - they are prizes for what? Doing what everyone else also did? Why does that need to be rewarded with such a special gift?

Edited January 13, 2014 by LaHaine

[whitebaron]

You didn't understand, I was telling amazon_warrior I don't want both, it doesn't make sense to ask for more prizes and still treat them as "rares", because their prices WILL drop with the increase of their population. And I'm fine with that increase, it's what people want. No more dramas towards the winners. Like I said many times before, it sounds silly to me to give all lineages control over a breed to 10 people per year. Even if they are supposed to be rare, because they are prizes - they are prizes for what? Doing what everyone else also did? Why does that need to be rewarded with such a special gift?

why does everyone need control over every single lineage? Most people don't have that anyway, or do you see many running around flaunting 5g pb or checker rares?

 

so, it is a rare dragon. in general, there have to be rares, because else you could just disable hunting and have it be choose your dragon for the day, instead. prizes of course should be rares. CB Rares will be out of reach of most of the users for their whole DC life. And even if they got lucky accidentally, their one CB Gold does not give them any control over what they could breed.

 

I call you out on jealousy. Yes, I am jealous too, but this does not change the fact that a common variant of the prizes would a) not be metallic and not anymore wanted than trihorns, crimsons or blacktips.

[DragonNighthowler]

dragonnighthowler: if it was a common breed in the cave, people would complain because metallics should not be as common. or golds and silvers should be more common too.

It is as Amazon Warrior said, they want them to drop like commons but trade like rares.

 

Edit; I wonder what would happen if we change the status. If those advocating for more tinsels, more raffles, and multiclutches they have no control of, would still advocate the same were they winners of a raffle and owners of a CB specimen.

Edited January 13, 2014 by DragonNighthowler

[Guillotine]

...Except a lot of us are against them dropping in the cave in any form and just want them to be slightly less impossible to get?

 

And yes, I would advocate the same thing if I won. The current system is not a good one.

[LaHaine]

why does everyone need control over every single lineage? Most people don't have that anyway, or do you see many running around flaunting 5g pb or checker rares?

 

so, it is a rare dragon. in general, there have to be rares, because else you could just disable hunting and have it be choose your dragon for the day, instead. prizes of course should be rares. CB Rares will be out of reach of most of the users for their whole DC life. And even if they got lucky accidentally, their one CB Gold does not give them any control over what they could breed.

 

I call you out on jealousy. Yes, I am jealous too, but this does not change the fact that a common variant of the prizes would a) not be metallic and not anymore wanted than trihorns, crimsons or blacktips.

That's not what I said. It's the possibility to make lineages we are talking about here. What if all owners refused to breed their prizes with a certain breed? That line would never be possible for any of us even if we wanted to create it

 

And you calling me jealous greatly offends me. I've been defending this ever since the beginning and I would still defend it if I won a prize. If I had won a prize I would give it away to someone who was kind to me in another game, that's how much I want a prize. I've already had my share of lists and IOU's in the past year with a 2nd gen, which was a kind gift to me and not a trade. It's not a matter of jealousy, it's a matter of defending what I believe and I'm sorry you can't see that.

 

 

There is a funny thing, you, the ones complaining, are the ones putting that prize. You, who put up a trade for four CB metals, a second gen holly and whatever else, are inflating the prize. I can't hunt CB metals, I should complain that you are putting such expectations on tinsel breeders, and you're shifting the market towards rare for rare trading, that you're making it impossible for the common hunter to be able to trade for metallics any more.

 

There was no need at all to say something rude like that, DragonNighthowler.

Most people complaining here don't have trading possiblities and are against the amount of cb golds/neglecteds/whatever the current prizes go for, regardless of the current worth of their scroll. That's exactly why we are complaining: most people cannot afford a low gen and will probably never get one.

It's not only the fault of those who offer but also those who accept and those who wait for all offers to be made to decide which is better. Or you could say it's not anyone's fault, because it's not: It's how economy works. We don't have coins. We have dragons to trade for dragons. The only way this could shift was prety obvious ever since TJ implemented the trade system: Scarcity means rare, rare means expensive. So we trade rare cows for rarer cows until we get the rarest cow and can control the market. It's not something that depends on the community, well it does, but it can't be changed - it's human nature. It's pretty to say that if we refuse to trade, the prices will drop, but it's never actually going to happen.

[DragonNighthowler]

...Except a lot of us are against them dropping in the cave in any form and just want them to be slightly less impossible to get?

 

And yes, I would advocate the same thing if I won. The current system is not a good one.

Ok, lets make them like GoNs, unable to breed. The system is broken, lets make it so there is no economy behind them.

 

That solution isn't good either, everyone wants a piece of the cake, and that's the problem. There isn't enough cake for everyone.

 

The current system is a lottery, it works like a lottery, and there will always be some who win the grand prize, others who win little consolation prizes, and a mayority who win absolutely nothing.

 

Lets increase the number, lets make it 500, it will still not be enough.

A thousand!

Too few, we need more, there is someone down the corner who didn't win.

How many till everyone is happy?

 

There was no need at all to say something rude like that, DragonNighthowler.

 

Must be a cultural thing, but we have a very different opinion of what is considered rude. I'm just stating a fact. Shimmers would have never been priceless if there had not been a horde of people willing to bury tinsel owners under a pile of gold.

That without taking into consideration other facts which I'm keeping to myself, and the conclusion I've reached upon reading this thread.

 

most people cannot afford a low gen and will probably never get one

 

So? Most people will never get a Buggatti Veyron, but most people will have a car. It's not like you are totally incapacitated to do anything just because you can't get a 2nd gen tinsel.

 

also those who accept and those who wait for all offers to be made to decide which is better

 

Sounds like trading to me. Don't see what's so wrong with it. They wait because they know people are going to pay outrageous sums for them. If they knew eggs would grow on their scroll without an offer, things would be much different. They might even start gifting them for free.

But people don't want that either, because DC tinsel/shimmer market is evaluated based on how much you can get for their offspring.

 

it's human nature

 

No, it is purely cultural. It is western culture to be more exact, and it can be changed.

 

but it's never actually going to happen.

 

Which is pretty sad, considering you, as a mass, have the power to manipulate everything, and yet, you don't.

Edited January 13, 2014 by DragonNighthowler