DC Gold

[Chanilove]

*coughs* I trade fairly often, actually.

 

Also, if I happened to be looking for a 2nd gen Silver for a lineage? Yeah, I'd totally give you some hatchies for it.

Perhaps you would, but I wouldn't and I'm prone to believe most people share my mind on this. I prefer breeding things from my own scroll whenever possible, so I can choose the names and know that the names stay in place. If I could get a CB Silver (and raise a small army of pretty Guardians while I was at it) for just a little more than that 2G Silver, I'd convince myself that I'd eventually be able to breed myself a 2G from that pairing... and other pairings I may need as well. I'd be waiting a while, sure, but oh well. It's a CB Silver! And if everyone's as hung up on CB's as you imply (and they are) then most people will follow that line of logic and bypass that Silver of mine.

 

You might not like the way things are, but most of us prefer it to this new method. I suppose I can put it at rest, then. I hope this one won't take 11 pages to get shot down, but I'm certain it's headed that way now, so I can throw in the towel.

[Sadako]

Amazon-Warrior has an excellent point in that the idea of raising commons for currency and spending that at a shop (or mysterious stranger) is exactly the same thing as those threads where you raise commons, tally them, and trade them for a bred rare. The ratios are self-correcting if the price is high enough. It's just that it would be recorded and managed automatically by the site.

 

I've never participated in those threads because even though I raise CB commons I can't be bothered to tally them and I'm also a little shy about showing up in the thread all 'derp can I play give me your rares'. So, while some people don't want to lose the way it's done now, others like me who find it difficult to participate in that kind of group activity would have the chance to help out with ratios and have their efforts rewarded.

 

There would still be plenty of opportunity to trade egg-for-egg with other users for lineages and such, it seems like the community feel wouldn't be all that changed by it. I find this place a very nice community even though I have never once traded IOU hatchies for a CB rare, nor once participated in the common-raising threads.

 

I mean, I'm still not sold on currency in general and I know a lot of people are balking at the idea of a shop, but this really does make a good thought experiment.

 

EDIT: Like 8 posts were made while I was typing this, wow.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Sadako

[Chanilove]

Amazon-Warrior has an excellent point in that the idea of raising commons for currency and spending that at a shop (or mysterious stranger) is exactly the same thing as those threads where you raise commons, tally them, and trade them for a bred rare. The ratios are self-correcting if the price is high enough. It's just that it would be recorded and managed automatically by the site.

 

I've never participated in those threads because even though I raise CB commons I can't be bothered to tally them and I'm also a little shy about showing up in the thread all 'derp can I play give me your rares'. So, while some people don't want to lose the way it's done now, others like me who find it difficult to participate in that kind of group activity would have the chance to help out with ratios and have their efforts rewarded.

 

There would still be plenty of opportunity to trade egg-for-egg with other users for lineages and such, it seems like the community feel wouldn't be all that changed by it. I find this place a very nice community even though I have never once traded IOU hatchies for a CB rare, nor once participated in the common-raising threads.

 

I mean, I'm still not sold on currency in general and I know a lot of people are balking at the idea of a shop, but this really does make a good thought experiment.

It would change everything, though. It is different. It's setting prices on dragons. People can argue until they're blue in the face that dragons already have set prices, but they really don't. The Cave has a big part in choosing the prices already through ratios, but the community at least has a say now. That would be ripped to shreds if this were implemented.

[Fuzzbucket]

It would change everything, though. It is different. It's setting prices on dragons. People can argue until they're blue in the face that dragons already have set prices, but they really don't. The Cave has a big part in choosing the prices already through ratios, but the community at least has a say now. That would be ripped to shreds if this were implemented.

Yes - exactly. It is making the values SITE set somehow (god only now show ) rather than what PLAYERS feel they want to get !

[Amazon_warrior]

I'm thinking this system is too complex and would thus hurt one of DC's finest selling points: simplicity.

...if you think this is complicated, you should see the OP's suggestion!

 

 

@Chanilove: Maybe you do feel that way. I can only speak for myself though, not for you or anyone else. Oddly, once I reach my scroll goals then I actively *prefer* bred dragons. I upped said goals only recently because I'm mad like that people kept offering CBs instead of what I was looking for because the assumption is that *everyone* wants more CB Blusangs, right? In fact, once I reach my target number of a breed, then I have no need to collect more CBs unless I decide to start a new Doctor Who lineage or a personal lineage with a specific naming theme (like my poetry/lyric lineages). And for those I tend to choose common breeds deliberately. My thinking on the CB issue was that, if anyone could afford a CB of whatever after a given amount of work (and actually I imagine the gap between CB and 2nd gen metallics being far larger than you imply), then the "ooo special"-ness would be blunted somewhat. Maybe that isn't the case though.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Amazon, I was referring to the OP's post. l'D

[whitebaron]

Technically I already do that, if I just want a couple of commons for a CB Trio (and usually that's all I *do* want).  Users would still be trading dragons for dragons so there's still be personal preferences in effect and lineages might actually begin to be significant again.  I'm generally a bit fed up with the current "CB or nothing" attitude on the trading threads - it's why I rarely breed my dragons other than for my own lineages or for gifting (sometimes I do a mass-breed of my nicer lineages and abandon them to the AP).  If I trade anything, it's CBs - anything else mostly isn't worth my time.  Anything that levels that particular playing field, to my mind, has to be a good thing.

this is my usual trading-tagline:

top priority is:

• 2nd gen GW from gold mother
• 2nd gen Gold from GW father
• 2nd gen Silver from red mother
• 2nd gen Red from silver father
• 2nd gen Black from silver father
• 2nd gen Silver from black mother
• CB Magma/Ice
• CB Red
• CB or PB + EG BSA hatchies (more than one, red, pink, purple, magi)
• other metallics (CB metallic = pick all you want from my offers and my scroll)

and know what? The most I get offered is CB BSA hatchies. EG is so much simpler, faster obtained. Many people obviously don't like breeding.

 

---

 

As for the cave plumbing threads: The difference to this shop system is significant in that you CAN'T DECIDE which dragon you get. It might be a 3rd even gen thuwed dorkface checker. Might be a 27th gen inbred messy without any famous ancestor. All you decide is the color of dragon.

And that's why people would rather want this shop than a forums thread - because they care about lineages and rarity. But exactly that rarity changes once you can buy it... sadly many don't see that.

[Chanilove]

...if you think this is complicated, you should see the OP's suggestion!

 

 

@Chanilove: Maybe you do feel that way. I can only speak for myself though, not for you or anyone else. Oddly, once I reach my scroll goals then I actively *prefer* bred dragons. I upped said goals only recently because I'm mad like that people kept offering CBs instead of what I was looking for because the assumption is that *everyone* wants more CB Blusangs, right? In fact, once I reach my target number of a breed, then I have no need to collect more CBs unless I decide to start a new Doctor Who lineage or a personal lineage with a specific naming theme (like my poetry/lyric lineages). And for those I tend to choose common breeds deliberately. My thinking on the CB issue was that, if anyone could afford a CB of whatever after a given amount of work (and actually I imagine the gap between CB and 2nd gen metallics being far larger than you imply), then the "ooo special"-ness would be blunted somewhat. Maybe that isn't the case though.

I feel for you, I do. I have scroll goals that I follow as well and it's been ages since I've raised a CB to adulthood. All my "extra" CB metallics have not been kept, but either traded or gifted. I've only ever kept one CB Black and that was because I needed it for a stairstep. All this aside, I honestly don't think this will close that gap at all.

 

For me, at least, this would make trading and random gifting both undesirable. Not only that, but I'd stop even bothering to look for rares. Since there's really no call for them to be gifted to people who can't otherwise get them and no use trading them since I'd have to undercut the Cave, I'd lose interest in DC pretty quick. I love lineage projects and the like, but trading and gifting are both very vital aspects of this game for me.

 

Also, I can't help but feel that you're trying to make the rest of us conform to your trading standards. You want CB's to be worth less to everyone just because they're not special to you. I can understand coming from a similar position how frustrating it can be when the majority doesn't seem to share your values, but that's not a valid pro. The only pro I've seen for this is what Sadako mentioned earlier, and it's just not appealing enough to overrule the con of changing the Cave this drastically.

 

We can work under the pretense of this not effecting DC dramatically, but I think everyone here knows better. The change to DC would be huge. The only thing we can really debate is whether it'd be a good change or not. I think I've made it clear where I stand on that bit.

[Amazon_warrior]

Amazon, I was referring to the OP's post. l'D

Oh, derp! Sorry.

 

 

@whitebaron: I'd offer to try and breed you the GWs, except I know from bitter experience that it took me six months of weekly breedings to get one from my wretched Gold females. However, I'm willing to give it a shot after I've fulfilled a promise I made to someone else.

[Sadako]

Yes - exactly. It is making the values SITE set somehow (god only now show ) rather than what PLAYERS feel they want to get !

 

But if you can't use the gold to buy things from other players, then buying with currency from a site shop would have no direct effect on trading prices. Say a shop-born gold egg costs 500 currency. If you catch a cave-born gold egg and put it up for trade, other users can't give you 500 currency for it, they can only offer other eggs and hatchies.

 

The shop prices of other eggs could influence the approximate value of the egg you've put up for trade--say a shop-born silver costs 250 currency. That might make it likely that you would get an offer of 2 cave-born silvers for your cave-born gold that you've put up for barter with other users. If a shop-born red costs 100 currency, then 5 cave-born reds might be a realistic offer. (To be honest there is already a value scale. Everyone loosely agrees on what is worth what, with exceptions made for preference.)

 

But bred eggs, neglecteds, holiday lineage eggs and so on are wild cards in the system. You can hold out for an offer of 10 messy-lineaged reds if you need more BSA dragons, or for a neglected which would obviously not be sold in the shop, or for a special bred silver with a yulebuck parent. In fact, the shop could serve as a place to get trade fodder for higher-end trades.

[Amazon_warrior]

I feel for you, I do. I have scroll goals that I follow as well and it's been ages since I've raised a CB to adulthood. All my "extra" CB metallics have not been kept, but either traded or gifted. I've only ever kept one CB Black and that was because I needed it for a stairstep. All this aside, I honestly don't think this will close that gap at all.

 

For me, at least, this would make trading and random gifting both undesirable. Not only that, but I'd stop even bothering to look for rares. Since there's really no call for them to be gifted to people who can't otherwise get them and no use trading them since I'd have to undercut the Cave, I'd lose interest in DC pretty quick. I love lineage projects and the like, but trading and gifting are both very vital aspects of this game for me.

 

Also, I can't help but feel that you're trying to make the rest of us conform to your trading standards. You want CB's to be worth less to everyone just because they're not special to you. I can understand coming from a similar position how frustrating it can be when the majority doesn't seem to share your values, but that's not a valid pro. The only pro I've seen for this is what Sadako mentioned earlier, and it's just not appealing enough to overrule the con of changing the Cave this drastically.

 

We can work under the pretense of this not effecting DC dramatically, but I think everyone here knows better. The change to DC would be huge. The only thing we can really debate is whether it'd be a good change or not. I think I've made it clear where I stand on that bit.

I'm genuinely not trying to make anyone conform to anything - I'm honestly interested in the debate. As I said before, I do not care if this gets implemented or not, but I am interested in people's arguments against it. *puts on Devil's advocate hat* You're right, it probably would have a significant impact on trading, much like teleport did for regular trading. I was genuinely interested in whether that would be a positive or a negative thing, and you have definitely made your stance on that clear.

 

As for myself, I freely admit that I can actually be quite awkward to trade with. That's why I don't trade as much as I could do, and another reason I increased my scroll goals - suddenly people can offer me CB commons again without me having to come up with a new lyric lineage to make with them!

 

 

ETA: *nods at Sadako* Yeah, that's pretty much how I imagined it'd work.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Amazon_warrior

[brairtrainer]

But if you can't use the gold to buy things from other players, then buying with currency from a site shop would have no direct effect on trading prices. Say a shop-born gold egg costs 500 currency. If you catch a cave-born gold egg and put it up for trade, other users can't give you 500 currency for it, they can only offer other eggs and hatchies.

 

The shop prices of other eggs could influence the approximate value of the egg you've put up for trade--say a shop-born silver costs 250 currency. That might make it likely that you would get an offer of 2 cave-born silvers for your cave-born gold that you've put up for barter with other users. If a shop-born red costs 100 currency, then 5 cave-born reds might be a realistic offer. (To be honest there is already a value scale. Everyone loosely agrees on what is worth what, with exceptions made for preference.)

 

But bred eggs, neglecteds, holiday lineage eggs and so on are wild cards in the system. You can hold out for an offer of 10 messy-lineaged reds if you need more BSA dragons, or for a neglected which would obviously not be sold in the shop, or for a special bred silver with a yulebuck parent. In fact, the shop could serve as a place to get trade fodder for higher-end trades.

The problem with the shop is that everyone is going to buy breeds that are hard to catch and even if you program the shop to increase price as the ratio gets lower you're going to end up with a saturation of golds/silvers/nebulas/mints/anything and everying that might become popular.

 

And if someone can buy a CB gold why would they breed a 2nd gen CB silver to trade for it? The problems I see are because 1. You then how to change how the game fundementaly works. Teleport changed how the game worked by santioning trading, but users were already doing it through a glich through the ap that was not against the TS. This would require a change there, a change at how you get eggs. Honestly if DC is going to do this then we should look at unicreatures instead, where there is no need for a money sink because you can't trade and you just collect(!) but this isn't unicreatures, nor is it magistream.

 

I honestly like DC the way it is because of 1. Friendly giving community, if you need something someone out there will be willing to give it or give you dragons that will give you the means to.

 

2. The fact that Rich people in RL don't have an advantage over poorer(unless you count internet speed, but that can vary from area to area and cannot be helped)

 

3. Everyone, from a first day newb to and old seasoned vetren can catch a CB gold if they seen one. Sure not everyone has one but thats the beauty of something that is rare.

[Chanilove]

But if you can't use the gold to buy things from other players, then buying with currency from a site shop would have no direct effect on trading prices. Say a shop-born gold egg costs 500 currency. If you catch a cave-born gold egg and put it up for trade, other users can't give you 500 currency for it, they can only offer other eggs and hatchies.

 

The shop prices of other eggs could influence the approximate value of the egg you've put up for trade--say a shop-born silver costs 250 currency. That might make it likely that you would get an offer of 2 cave-born silvers for your cave-born gold that you've put up for barter with other users. If a shop-born red costs 100 currency, then 5 cave-born reds might be a realistic offer. (To be honest there is already a value scale. Everyone loosely agrees on what is worth what, with exceptions made for preference.)

 

But bred eggs, neglecteds, holiday lineage eggs and so on are wild cards in the system. You can hold out for an offer of 10 messy-lineaged reds if you need more BSA dragons, or for a neglected which would obviously not be sold in the shop, or for a special bred silver with a yulebuck parent. In fact, the shop could serve as a place to get trade fodder for higher-end trades.

I'm not talking about the direct effect. I'm aware that this gold would not be able to be transferred between players which is why I gave an example in my post to illustrate my point. It would be setting prices on dragons, albeit indirectly. The "exceptions made for preference" are exactly what I'm referring to as the freedom that exists in trading.

 

If I wanted to buy my adoptables with gold, I'd play Magistream. MS doesn't hold my interest for this exact reason -- everyone has access to everything via gold. The game is linear to the point that I easily get distracted from it. The only thing that would keep me from quitting altogether were this implemented is the existence of lineage projects.

 

I like that DC is different. I like the way trading and gifting is now. I'm not entirely abject to all change, but drastic ones like this to "fix" a system that (in my humble opinion) isn't broken will never garner any support from me. It doesn't really seem that anyone fully supports this idea. The only two people debating for it are waving the "I don't care" banner, whereas there's a slew of people who are strongly against it. I think that speaks for itself.

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I'm pretty certain this falls under "spontaneous egg creation", which is one of the things TJ has forbidden. It's mentioned in the BSA suggestions, but I'd like to think that it applies to all aspects of the site. Dolphinsong (I think it was her) stated this about the original idea.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Chanilove

[Sadako]

The only two people debating for it are waving the "I don't care" banner, whereas there's a slew of people who are strongly against it. I think that speaks for itself.

Heh, I think you just won the debate with that.

[olympe]

Let me ask a slightly different, but still related question:

 

What has to happen in order for an in-game currency system (for DC) to work?

 

In my opinion, it only needs a few things:

1. Currency is acquired through raising dragons and no other means (save in-game trading). This means that you cannot buy DC currency with real money. You cannot make an exorbitant amount of DC money by spending a couple of hours clicking stuff like mad. And you really can't quicken the process save with trading for or catching abandoned ER eggs.
2. A DC shop where you can buy stuff - like CB eggs or a breed-specific fertility drug for your dragons. The price for "buying" a CB gold and for a gold fertility drug (guaranteeing you a gold from your next gold breeding) would have to be the same. If the price for a gold is high enough so that you'd have to hatch more common eggs than the ratios demand for a gold to be produced, there won't be too much harm done. Prices could fluctuate, depending on demand - but that does not have to be the case, since the ratios appear to be fixed anyway. Also, it doesn't matter whether you got your CB gold with money you got for raising commons, or for money you got via trading - someone will have raised the appropriate number of commons for the money to be in the game in the first place. Prices for bred eggs can't be set too high, either, or people will prefer to buy CBs. (And, yes, I know this is spontaneous egg creation. The same kind of thing that happens when breeding - or in the cave. Sometimes, even wild dragons add to the spontaneous egg creation - eggs which then end up in the AP.)
3. Bought dragons (including those created with a fertility drug) do not count towards the ratios. This way, people who don't want to use DC money to buy anything won't be negatively affected by other people who do - because the ratios don't get thrown out of wack by bought dragons.
4. Money flows freely on DC. Since the DC shop is a money drain, as well as gives you an idea of what you can charge for your caught/bred dragons, there's no real point in accumulating money beyond a certain point. If you do, fine.
5. Strictly optional: DC taking taxes for trading, like 10% of the price.

I think that, with the influx of CB eggs from the shop, lineaged eggs will rise in popularity because the now rare CBs will become more common. But that's just an assumption on my part.

 

There's still the ratio argument. But it is possible to code so the shop eggs don't count towards the ratios. Also, if, for example, the ratios needed 500 commons for each gold egg and you'd have to pay the monetary equivalent of 1000 common hatchlings raised for a gold from the shop, it wouldn't be all that bad.

Edited November 4, 2012 by olympe

[Fuzzbucket]

Who would do the valuing ? TJ has always said ratios are not as fixed as we think, so it can't be directly tied to them. I can't see mods wanting to monitor and adjust them. Everyone in this thread has their own values attached to each dragon, so that won't work...

[HeatherMarie]

*bangs head against the wall* This thread gives me a headache.

 

I've repeated it over and over, and fuzz just asked it. How is anything supposed to be "valued" in this currency suggestion, when DC dragons don't *have* values in-game? Users set the values. And yunno what? To me, an inbred vine is more valuable then a CB gold.

 

Making breed values an in-game thing, that by itself would completely change DragonCave. Turn it into something it's not. Turn it into something most of us don't want it to be.

 

An in-cave store? To *buy* dragons? So, I spent 8 months working really hard to catch my first CB Gold, and now suddenly people could just raise a few commons and *buy* a CB Gold? THAT completely changes what DragonCave is.

[Chanilove]

*bangs head against the wall* This thread gives me a headache.

This. I've said it before, but I'm really done posting here now. I don't see this going through with so much vehement disagreement and as long as I don't feel threatened by this idea I've no point being here. I'm just tired of repeating myself; I feel like I'm going in circles. D:

 

On the off-chance that this does go through, well, I at least hope it's like other suggestions and takes ages to implement. That way I'm not around to quit when it goes public.

 

Good luck to the rest of you debating.

[olympe]

*bangs head against the wall* This thread gives me a headache.

I'd say the headache comes from banging your head. /puts on logic hat

 

An in-cave store? To *buy* dragons? So, I spent 8 months working really hard to catch my first CB Gold, and now suddenly people could just raise a few commons and *buy* a CB Gold? THAT completely changes what DragonCave is.

Make that a few hundred, maybe a thousand commons. Never a few. And, even with a gold trophy and endless incubates, it would take 41 weeks to raise 1000 commons from scratch. That's between 9 and 10 months.

 

 

[brairtrainer]

I'd say the headache comes from banging your head. /puts on logic hat

 

Make that a few hundred, maybe a thousand commons. Never a few. And, even with a gold trophy and endless incubates, it would take 41 weeks to raise 1000 commons from scratch. That's between 9 and 10 months.

Not if you trade them for money as hatchlings.

 

Really this does change the fundemental level of dc and left to a Different game!!

Edited November 4, 2012 by brairtrainer

[olympe]

Trading money for hatchlings doesn't work if you're trying to save up. After all, saving up means not spending it... You know that saying about the cake that you cannot have and eat?

 

And, yes, this would change DC. As did breeding, lineage view, teleport, incubate, influence, bite, earthquake (without and with the eggs killed by it counting for 24 hours), holiday releases, changed scroll limits, tinsels/prize dragons, enabling/disabling of multi-clutches, enforcing ratios for breeding, biomes, de-randomizing of hatching/maturing time... You get the idea. And the only change of those that I'm not happy with is the dragons for prizes thing (tinsels) - because a CB tinsel is like a player's private DC money printing press.

Edited November 4, 2012 by olympe

[brairtrainer]

What I mean is you get a hatchling so you get the gold, then you sell the hatchling (most likely to a newbe who has beginning amount of money) and that puts you to getting the cb gold faster which throws the ratios out of wack.

[demonicvampiregirl]

*bangs head against the wall* This thread gives me a headache.

 

I've repeated it over and over, and fuzz just asked it. How is anything supposed to be "valued" in this currency suggestion, when DC dragons don't *have* values in-game? Users set the values. And yunno what? To me, an inbred vine is more valuable then a CB gold.

 

Making breed values an in-game thing, that by itself would completely change DragonCave. Turn it into something it's not. Turn it into something most of us don't want it to be.

 

An in-cave store? To *buy* dragons? So, I spent 8 months working really hard to catch my first CB Gold, and now suddenly people could just raise a few commons and *buy* a CB Gold? THAT completely changes what DragonCave is.

^

This.

 

I don't have a CB gold or silver and would love it. I don't want to have to buy it and will wait patiently for it still.

 

I don't like water horses very much but I know someone who had a huge lineage of waterhorse dragons. Should I change the game to benefit myself and mess up her game style? The answer is obviously no. I don't think the cave should set the values ever. The users should like we always have. Some like every dragon some only like a few and some value CB over linaged while others it's the opposite. I don't think the game choosing a players game style when it's been up to the users this long to be changed.

[olympe]

I don't think that someone will stop loving water horses just because they're cheap by cave standards. That person loves them despite them being blockers now, so why would they be bothered by the fact that they don't cost a fortune?

 

Why would an in-game shop mess up her breeding of water horses or their motivation to do so? Personally, I'd breed even more of them for my perfect lineage and save the gold I got for raising them for the CB gold I can't seem to get any other way. (Okay, so it's not water horses for me, but more like daydreams and skywings and waters and the occasional bluna or shallow water at the moment - but this doesn't change the basic principle.)

 

What I mean is you get a hatchling so you get the gold, then you sell the hatchling (most likely to a newbe who has beginning amount of money) and that puts you to getting the cb gold faster which throws the ratios out of wack.

 

First of all, you will need to find someone willing to pay for your common hatchling. Second, the money someone else gives you for your hatchling has to come from somewhere - and the way I suggested it, you can only earn money for raising dragons. So, someone has raised dragons for the money you acquire through trading - only it wasn't you. (And, no, no beginning amount of money. Money isn't needed to start playing the game, so there's no reason to give anybody a starting amount.) So, since money equals the equivalent number of common dragons raised, the ratios won't be thrown out of wack.

Edited November 4, 2012 by olympe

[whitebaron]

So, since money equals the equivalent number of common dragons raised, the ratios won't be thrown out of wack.

You're missing one important point here:

While the ratios could stay intact with this idea, it would directly influence the players not using this new currency.

 

Why? Because every dragon bought from a store would mean one less dropped in the cave. It's damn hard to get a cb metallic as it is, now imagine every second one just does not drop because it is bought instead... This could easily spiral into no Gold drops, because people are then even more dedicated to getting golds in the store instead of in the biomes. (and there i thought you were against this idea from previous posts... boy was i wrong. )