DC Gold

[Amazon_warrior]

Can anyone explain to me the difference between getting a rare dragon for raising commons for one of the cave clearance thread and buying a rare dragon with currency earned by raising commons? Assuming the rares and commons are linked to the ratios in both scenarios, I don't think there *is* a difference (other than you'll likely get a bred rare with the first method and a CB with the second). Especially if bought eggs don't generate currency (and they shouldn't imo). Don't some of those threads already rate commons with points values? 5 points for an Albino, 10 for a Waterwalker, or whatever? You raise the dragons, total your points and "buy" your rare. This'd be the site keeping an official score of that and encouraging players to collect those dragons with an actual mechanic. There are enough threads about trying to achieve that exact goal. The Cave would still need to exist or where are those commons going to come from? You'd hardly be expected to buy them, or indeed anything else if you have the time to sit and hunt for what you want. DC, when you get right down to it, is all about time - time spent catching or breeding a desired egg, hatching that egg, raising the hatchling. We choose how to spend our time in a way that benefits our goals, and we already have mechanics in place to modify the time for certain things to take place (incubate, I'm looking at you, influence and fertility have an effect too). If the pricing management is done right, a shop isn't going to mean that CB Golds will be as easy to buy as CB Balloons - most people simply wouldn't be able to afford them without raising a serious amount of commons. They may prefer to find a trade on the forums or camp the main Cave instead - it might suit their playstyle better.

 

NB: Currency, if implemented, should only be spendable on the site, not used for player/player trading - that really would muddy the waters.

 

Also, I kind of get the feeling that the word "shop" is triggering a lot of people to instantly nay-say at this, but I don't know what else to call it. "A mysterious stranger appears, with a selection of dragon eggs they've collected from all across the world. You look over their collection to see if there's something you want." I admit, DC is the only sprite-collecting/pet site I've ever played, so I haven't been burned by poorly thought-out currency systems elsewhere. That's probably why I'm not understanding the amount of negative emotion this is generating.

[Fuzzbucket]

Can anyone explain to me the difference between getting a rare dragon for raising commons for one of the cave clearance thread and buying a rare dragon with currency earned by raising commons?

Yes.

 

The ones using threads here involves co-operation among players who all want to work towards the same thing; it is PLAYER defined and PLAYER regulated. The buying/valuing/limiting thing takes that level of control by players out of it.

 

I give a homeless man my lunch sandwich because he looks hungrier than I feel - my gift.

I give someone the money to go out and buy that guy a sandwich because I am rich - maybe because I am so OLD - but I can't be bothered to go and buy him one myself - totally different.

[fainewebbe]

Can anyone explain to me the difference between getting a rare dragon for raising commons for one of the cave clearance thread and buying a rare dragon with currency earned by raising commons?

 

Yes. In the first scenario, people can obtain rare dragons without fundamentally changing the way the the game works for everyone else. It offers a way for people to get a rare within the confines of how DC is played.

 

Just out of curiosity: if there is no difference, then why suggest an alternative?

 

Edited for my typo.

Edited November 4, 2012 by fainewebbe

[Fuzzbucket]

Just out of curiosity: if there is no difference, then why suggest an alternative?

Good point

[Amazon_warrior]

Yes.

 

The ones using threads here involves co-operation among players who all want to work towards the same thing; it is PLAYER defined and PLAYER regulated. The buying/valuing/limiting thing takes that level of control by players out of it.

 

I give a homeless man my lunch sandwich because he looks hungrier than I feel - my gift.

I give someone the money to go out and buy that guy a sandwich because I am rich - maybe because I am so OLD - but I can't be bothered to go and buy him one myself - totally different.

The homeless man still gets the sandwich though? Why would he mind how he got it? Whether it came from your own fair hands or you caused it to be bought for him, he still gets lunch. I'd say that's a win for him. (And a seriously poor analogy.) My point is, *mechanically* it is *exactly* the same thing, even if you feel that emotionally it isn't.

 

 

@fainewebbe: Not all users are on the forums to join such threads, but might appreciate the opportunity to get something in return for raising more common dragons. And lest we forget, trading was not an official mechanic of DC... until it was. Did it change the way people play? Yeah, probably. Is that necessarily a bad thing? I don't think so. There's also the prize dragons (both Tinsel and others) to consider, if we want to fuss about spontaneous egg creation. Also, I didn't start this thread suggesting alternatives to trading, but I *do* think it's interesting to debate ways that a currency system could work, as a thought exercise if nothing else.

[Fuzzbucket]

The homeless man still gets the sandwich though? Why would he mind how he got it? Whether it came from your own fair hands or you caused it to be bought for him, he still gets lunch. I'd say that's a win for him. (And a seriously poor analogy.) My point is, *mechanically* it is *exactly* the same thing, even if you feel that emotionally it isn't.

 

 

@fainewebbe: Not all users are on the forums to join such threads, but might appreciate the opportunity to get something in return for raising more common dragons. And lest we forget, trading was not an official mechanic of DC... until it was. Did it change the way people play? Yeah, probably. Is that necessarily a bad thing? I don't think so. There's also the prize dragons (both Tinsel and others) to consider, if we want to fuss about spontaneous egg creation. Also, I didn't start this thread suggesting alternatives to trading, but I *do* think it's interesting to debate ways that a currency system could work, as a thought exercise if nothing else.

It is the mechanics of the gold thing that makes this so unpleasantly commercial, though. Rich people can do more IRL. Older players here are richer. Gifting (or trading) by those who have little, out of the goodness of their hearts is pleasant and brings its own rewards (some of my best stuff was glomped by people I had bred something for because I saw them wishing, for instance.) . Bringing MONEY into it (including virtual money) will make people lazy - can't be bothered to catch - send someone else out and pay them. Want to make them pay over the odds for that sandwich ? Set your price... and so on.

 

The way it works now is by interaction between players, not by gold just changing hands while players lie back and collect blockers.

[Chanilove]

I'm completely against it, but for once I'm saying this out of self-interest. I would feel useless as a catcher and likely stop participating in gifting threads. I'd still give things to my friends, but that'd be the end of it. I've given CB Golds to people who I thought could not otherwise obtain them and received whole-hearted thanks. That wouldn't be the case any longer -- it wouldn't be, "Oh my gosh! I've been playing three years and haven't got one. Thank you so much!" It would be, "You saved me a lot of work. Thanks."

 

But again, that is shameless self-interest, I won't even bother denying it.

[Fuzzbucket]

That wouldn't be the case any longer -- it wouldn't be, "Oh my gosh! I've been playing three years and haven't got one. Thank you so much!" It would be, "You saved me a lot of work. Thanks."

Exactly. It's the whole FEEL of the place that would change

[fainewebbe]

I'm completely against it, but for once I'm saying this out of self-interest. I would feel useless as a catcher and likely stop participating in gifting threads. I'd still give things to my friends, but that'd be the end of it. I've given CB Golds to people who I thought could not otherwise obtain them and received whole-hearted thanks. That wouldn't be the case any longer -- it wouldn't be, "Oh my gosh! I've been playing three years and haven't got one. Thank you so much!" It would be, "You saved me a lot of work. Thanks."

 

But again, that is shameless self-interest, I won't even bother denying it.

 

This. ^ You hit the nail on the head again, Chanilove.

 

 

[Amazon_warrior]

It is the mechanics of the gold thing that makes this so unpleasantly commercial, though. Rich people can do more IRL. Older players here are richer. Gifting (or trading) by those who have little, out of the goodness of their hearts is pleasant and brings its own rewards (some of my best stuff was glomped by people I had bred something for because I saw them wishing, for instance.) . Bringing MONEY into it (including virtual money) will make people lazy - can't be bothered to catch - send someone else out and pay them. Want to make them pay over the odds for that sandwich ? Set your price... and so on.

 

The way it works now is by interaction between players, not by gold just changing hands while players lie back and collect blockers.

*scratches head* People are already lazy, then. I admit, I totally use CB uncommons I catch to trade for CB common hatchies, thus I have paid someone else for their time and effort to raise them to that point - I have sent them out to do my work for me. I could have just as well grabbed and raised those commons myself, but I didn't. A quick glance at the trading threads suggests that I am not alone in this behaviour, either. Also, player/player trading would hardly be halted. All the CBs in the world aren't going to help you if you don't have a particular CB Holiday or whatever to breed it to, but you want to create a lineage with particular pairings. I also fail to see why it would be bad if everyone raised more blockers - isn't that *exactly* what everyone complains about and why we get so many suggestion threads about rotating the Cave eggs or changing how the ratios work? In addition, if a blocker stopped being a blocker (like Pinks or Seasonals did), then the values would adjust accordingly, and a different breed would become the new blocker and need collecting. Not to mention, more blockers raised means a better shot at catching or breeding those rares because the ratios wouldn't be so out of whack. I can't help feeling you're answering me without fully reading what I've written, or without actually considering it first.

 

And again, why shouldn't players who've put in the hard work and time to raise a lot of dragons enjoy certain benefits associated with that? If not, why do I have a nice gold trophy on my scroll and the ability to raise 7 eggs at a time? If I'm prepared to put in the time and effort to create an ND, why should I not expect to be recompensed accordingly? It doesn't stop me from gifting stuff, either, if I see someone I can breed something nice for. I don't join gifting threads because I don't have the patience for them, but I frequently offer to breed for people on the EG threads and anyone who PMs me politely can request eggs at any time.

[Chanilove]

Exactly. It's the whole FEEL of the place that would change

Yeah, I guess that's what I'm getting at. It's really hard for me to explain it. Mechanically everything would be the same, but emotionally everything changes drastically. I like the generous, kind-hearted nature of this community and I think it'd be somewhat of a waste.

 

Also, trading would change dramatically. Golds and Silvers as they are now have a special price tag on how hard they are to catch/breed. That bit of the price goes away and the only price remaining is their rarity. I mean, you wouldn't trade an IOU of certain hatchlings to someone for a shiny 2G when you could just raise a few extra hatchlings with breeds of your choice, keep them, and get a CB shiny while you're at it. The only way it would be viable is if we "undercut" the dragon shop, which restricts our trading to what the Cave decides our eggs are worth. I just really don't want a system that puts a pricetag on everything. Any freedom that we have in trading disappears if this is implemented.

[dernwyn]

Exactly. It's the whole FEEL of the place that would change

This is how I feel too - and not just for gifting, but for trading as well. The way it is now, I feel connected to the players I trade with, especially in breeding trades - when I see them post in other threads on the site, I think "oh, that's the person I got my pretty gold wyvern from! I wonder how they're doing with the lineage I bred them that white for?" and I can go check on it and be like "ooh, it's so pretty! I'm so glad I got to be a part of that " It's like we're all part of a cooperative group helping each other reach our goals.

 

Whereas with the currency system... it would become commercialized, all about the cold, hard cash.

 

I would still, if possible, play the same way, trading egg for egg with other players who feel the same way I do, but if the majority of DC went commercial, I think it would really change the dynamic of the entire community. People in general would become less connected to each other, linked only by money trails instead of raising each other's babies.

 

And if I were the homeless guy getting the sandwich - it would definitely make a much bigger difference in my life knowing someone cared about me enough to give me their own personal sandwich, rather than dropping some soulless money in my hand.

Edited November 4, 2012 by dernwyn

[kerrikins]

I think my biggest problem with this is that so far, the biggest reasons for this is 'I think it would help me get more of the dragons that I like'.

 

Now, there's nothing wrong with that - I'm not one of those people who think that there's something wrong with making a suggestion that's for personal gain. It'll never be voted in unless other people see an advantage, after all.

 

My biggest problem with the motives behind this is that I don't think that that's actually what would happen. I don't foresee this changing the economy of DC so drastically, not when ~everyone's equal~ doesn't play out in any economy, whether online orr offline. There would be rich players and poor players... The same problems that exist now would remain, except with a more convoluted system involved. :/

[Amazon_warrior]

I think my biggest problem with this is that so far, the biggest reasons for this is 'I think it would help me get more of the dragons that I like'.

 

Now, there's nothing wrong with that - I'm not one of those people who think that there's something wrong with making a suggestion that's for personal gain. It'll never be voted in unless other people see an advantage, after all.

 

My biggest problem with the motives behind this is that I don't think that that's actually what would happen. I don't foresee this changing the economy of DC so drastically, not when ~everyone's equal~ doesn't play out in any economy, whether online orr offline. There would be rich players and poor players... The same problems that exist now would remain, except with a more convoluted system involved. :/

...I actually couldn't care less whether or not this is implemented. Really. Like I said, it's an interesting thought experiment, or it would be if anyone would read my posts fully and rebut me with something other than "ewww, icky".

[5icky]

To be honest, i created a magistream and i have pretty much forgotten about it every day after the first few.. and i would remember but not want to go on. For some beautiful reason, Dragon Cave has held my attention for a span of now 4 months and has been my literal obsession ever since.

 

I DO NOT WANT CAVE MONEY, this will ruin the concept of breed, catch, trade, continue especially if there is a put price on a dragon. What if you are looking for a 9th gen messy gold that's inbred, but someone puts one up for the price of like... 7000 gold. That is rediculous unless put catagories are in place to start the price of the dragon, and then you check boxes that would make it a reasonable price such as

Gold [rare] would start as say... 5000 gold

then you check boxes to raise or lower the price..

[inbred]

[messy lineaged]

[well lineaged]

[CB]

and so on.. Checking CB would make the price range higher, checking inbred or messy may lower the price...

 

 

Still^ i got off track and my point is that i don't want gold in the cave.

*Smacks self in face* what am i going to do with myself?

[Chanilove]

...I actually couldn't care less whether or not this is implemented.  Really.  Like I said, it's an interesting thought experiment, or it would be if anyone would read my posts fully and rebut me with something other than "ewww, icky".

I mentioned how it would effect trading in my post. Everything would have a set price. Every time we had a rare, we would have to undercut the Cave in order to trade it. I'd just end up keeping it or gifting it rather than be bothered, personally. Trading and gifting are two things I am absolutely obsessed with here on the Cave and both of those would irrefutably be drastically changed if this were implemented.

 

@IcarusTheDragon: Read the last couple pages, please. We're no longer talking about the same mechanics mentioned in the OP. We're talking about having a shop you can buy rares from in-game. The gold would be obtained through raising commons and would be bound to your account, meaning that you cannot trade/gift it.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Chanilove

[fainewebbe]

Like I said, it's an interesting thought experiment, or it would be if anyone would read my posts fully and rebut me with something other than "ewww, icky".

 

This idea would change the very foundation of how the game is played into something radically different =/= "eww, icky".

Edited November 4, 2012 by fainewebbe

[Fuzzbucket]

...I actually couldn't care less whether or not this is implemented.  Really.  Like I said, it's an interesting thought experiment, or it would be if anyone would read my posts fully and rebut me with something other than "ewww, icky".

I thought I was doing. *snif*

 

But OK, I will try again :

*scratches head*  People are already lazy, then.  I admit, I totally use CB uncommons I catch to trade for CB common hatchies, thus I have paid someone else for their time and effort to raise them to that point - I have sent them out to do my work for me.  I could have just as well grabbed and raised those commons myself, but I didn't.

But you are interacting with other players when you trade - and someone else gets those hatchies - someone who wanted them for something. You are just going shopping when you buy - however you acquired your money. VERY different feel.

I also fail to see why it would be bad if everyone raised more blockers - isn't that *exactly* what everyone complains about and why we get so many suggestion threads about rotating the Cave eggs or changing how the ratios work?

Sure. So raise them and trade them with people who want them !

In addition, if a blocker stopped being a blocker (like Pinks or Seasonals did), then the values would adjust accordingly, and a different breed would become the new blocker and need collecting.

And who is going to set and reset those values ? NIGHTMARE stuff.

Not to mention, more blockers raised means a better shot at catching or breeding those rares because the ratios wouldn't be so out of whack.  I can't help feeling you're answering me without fully reading what I've written, or without actually considering it first.

I might cry here (except that I have dry eye syndrome and crying hurts with no tears ) I could say the same of you

And again, why shouldn't players who've put in the hard work and time to raise a lot of dragons enjoy certain benefits associated with that?  If not, why do I have a nice gold trophy on my scroll and the ability to raise 7 eggs at a time?  If I'm prepared to put in the time and effort to create an ND, why should I not expect to be recompensed accordingly?

You can be. Raise one and name your price - in eggs and hatchies - and if I can, I will meet it - as I have failed miserably fo far !

It doesn't stop me from gifting stuff, either, if I see someone I can breed something nice for.  I don't join gifting threads because I don't have the patience for them, but I frequently offer to breed for people on the EG threads and anyone who PMs me politely can request eggs at any time.

But honestly, hand on heart - how long do you think that atmosphere will continue to hold up ?

 

One of the nicest thing here IS player interaction - which takes a bit of effort, and in a way, more effort than just paying for stuff. I never want to lose that.

 

It is an interesting thought experiment, yes, which is why I stick around this thread. But the more I think, the more I think it would engender a radical change in the game which would make it so much more like other games out there that it would lose much of its special appeal. So I COULD care less whether or not this is implemented - in that I hope very much that it isn't.

 

Is that me saying "ewww, icky" ?

 

Edited for quotes going nuts on me

Edited November 4, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Amazon_warrior]

I mentioned how it would effect trading in my post. Everything would have a set price. Every time we had a rare, we would have to undercut the Cave in order to trade it. I'd just end up keeping it or gifting it rather than be bothered, personally. Trading and gifting are two things I am absolutely obsessed with here on the Cave and both of those would irrefutably be drastically changed if this were implemented.

 

@IcarusTheDragon: Read the last couple pages, please. We're no longer talking about the same mechanics mentioned in the OP. We're talking about having a shop you can buy rares from in-game. The gold would be obtained through raising commons and would be bound to your account, meaning that you cannot trade/gift it.

Technically I already do that, if I just want a couple of commons for a CB Trio (and usually that's all I *do* want). Users would still be trading dragons for dragons so there's still be personal preferences in effect and lineages might actually begin to be significant again. I'm generally a bit fed up with the current "CB or nothing" attitude on the trading threads - it's why I rarely breed my dragons other than for my own lineages or for gifting (sometimes I do a mass-breed of my nicer lineages and abandon them to the AP). If I trade anything, it's CBs - anything else mostly isn't worth my time. Anything that levels that particular playing field, to my mind, has to be a good thing.

[Fuzzbucket]

For the record I have never EVER posted CB or nothing on any thread (except for the CB vines I wanted for a lineage !!!) And many MANY trading threads are full of other requests.

 

I spent ages asking for 2nd gen greys !!!! But mostly I keep an eye on people's sigs etc and if I see something I can easily provide, I will do. Without even being asked. This is NOT me playing holier than thou, it is just the way people have often treated me (hey I was GIVEN three hollies last year out of the blue and everything ! And although it was well known that I "would give anything for one" none of the donors would accept anything as trade) I like to give back to such a giving community. We could lose all that.

Edited November 4, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Chanilove]

Technically I already do that, if I just want a couple of commons for a CB Trio (and usually that's all I *do* want).  Users would still be trading dragons for dragons so there's still be personal preferences in effect and lineages might actually begin to be significant again.  I'm generally a bit fed up with the current "CB or nothing" attitude on the trading threads - it's why I rarely breed my dragons other than for my own lineages or for gifting (sometimes I do a mass-breed of my nicer lineages and abandon them to the AP).  If I trade anything, it's CBs - anything else mostly isn't worth my time.  Anything that levels that particular playing field, to my mind, has to be a good thing.

You may already do that, but most of us have different values on certain eggs than the majority does. As someone who doesn't trade often, you could hardly understand what this would do to that aspect of the game. It takes away the community's freedom to choose what is worth what.

 

This would not even the playing field. As I said earlier, no one's going to want my 2G Silver in the trading threads for a few common hatchlings, because they could just raise a few more than what I'm asking and get a CB Silver... and get to keep the hatchlings to boot! This will solidify the "CB or bust" attitude if anything.

 

If this had been in place when I had been a newbie, I wouldn't have even bothered with the Newbie Gifting Project. I'd just raise some commons to get a CB Stripe, rather than some hand-me-down from someone else. I thought most of the commons looked pretty cool anyway -- everything was new and shiny -- so I would've had no problem raising the commons to do it.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Chanilove

[Fuzzbucket]

Most of us have different values on eggs than most of us - as you might say. I don't suppose anyone wants a vine/brimstone cross ?

 

Thought not ! But they make a lovely lineage So....

 

I would love a CB gold. But otherwise - I have - while I was on 28k DIAL UP YET ! - caught 2 CB silvers. I have better internet now. I will catch a gold in the end. I know I will.

[Amazon_warrior]

You may already do that, but most of us have different values on certain eggs than the majority does. As someone who doesn't trade often, you could hardly understand what this would do to that aspect of the game. It takes away the community's freedom to choose what is worth what.

 

This would not even the playing field. As I said earlier, no one's going to want my 2G Silver in the trading threads for a few common hatchlings, because they could just raise a few more than what I'm asking and get a CB Silver... and get to keep the hatchlings to boot! This will solidify the "CB or bust" attitude if anything.

*coughs* I trade fairly often, actually.

 

Also, if I happened to be looking for a 2nd gen Silver for a lineage? Yeah, I'd totally give you some hatchies for it.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'm thinking this system is too complex and would thus hurt one of DC's finest selling points: simplicity.

[Fuzzbucket]

Also, if I happened to be looking for a 2nd gen Silver for a lineage? Yeah, I'd totally give you some hatchies for it.

Me too. What do you want ????