Migration

[elynne]

I will restate the points I made earlier: no, this suggestion will not get rid of cave blockers. Unless something really interesting and new is implemented somehow, there will always be cave blockers. The biome solution has removed some of the earlier cave blocking frustrations. The migration idea is seeking to remove or at least alleviate a little more.

 

Shifting around the unwanted breeds will affect desirability. If there is an appearance of scarcity, more people will impulse-grab and raise those breeds. It's basic human psychology. If it changes gradually, say over the span of a week, every few months, most people won't even notice the change; but it will help the eggs in the biomes move a little more quickly.

 

I don't see a problem with "adding complexity for the newcomers." I don't see why newcomers would have to care about or be affected by the "complexity" at all. If they stay with the site, eventually all of the migrating breeds will become common again, in their seasons. There is always a learning curve with starting a membership with a site like DC, and there are some things even long-term members don't know or understand. If everything was easy on the first day, then we get back to the idea of handing every newcomer a complete set of CB dragons, including metallics, because anything else is just too hard!

 

I originally stopped replying on this thread because I saw a mention by TJ that he was planning to implement some new mechanic that would help with the caveblocker problem. I figured the holidays would have their new dragons and holiday special things, so I didn't say anything then. Now--the holidays are over, it's been a while, and the same breeds are right back to blocking the same biomes--whiptails and spitfires, stones and pebbles.

[Syphoneira]

That makes a lot of sense to me. It's a good compromise for those who don't want to completely lose breed availability.

 

A point that came to mind- when deciding which dragon species migrate when, it would be a good idea to make sure you balance out the commons leaving to the wanteds (roughly, of course, as wanted breeds change). You don't want more pretty/BSA dragons leaving in one season than the other.

 

One more thing- why just summer and winter? Why not have a rotation every season, or have dragons stay for two seasons? So (for example) the Nebulas stay for winter and spring, the Whites stay for spring and summer, Harvests stay for summer and fall, the Blacks stay for fall and winter...etc. It would be a lot more confusing, I guess, but it's an idea.

 

 

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a downer but going by various posts (just using an example from this comment quoted above) in this thread: I'm guessing that we'd have to hope that it would be arranged - not by us, of course, but by TJ - that in the annual rotation, CB Pinks would be unfindable, or virtually so, for anywhere from a few months to half a year, and that THEN a few months later, this would occur with Magis, and a few months later with Reds, rather than having all BSA dragons AWOL (or virtually so - not that they're easily found by slower people now) from the Cave at once, for a period not exceeding half the year?

 

And to hope that we could find them when they returned, as we could no longer be sure of the biomes they might be found in, when they are around, as they may migrate other places? (Needz a 'Find Waldo in The Dark' smilie, lol.)

 

As with the 'common' Blacks in the Cave, and the Whites, and all the others needed by hundreds/thousands for breeding/scroll completion all year around?

 

If implemented, wouldn't this make much lineage (and other) breeding a protracted business spanning years, with months - up to half a year - spent with projects on hold, awaiting a stiff competition for the Whites and Pinks missing/rare for so long when they come back with the Greens, Fogs and Mints flooding the Cave in that cycle?

 

Not to mention a similar time-line for new and other people with insufficient BSA (and other) dragons...

 

I dunno, guys, not my cup of tea, lol - are you quite sure it's yours?

 

You may think that you have all of the dragons you need, (unlike new people or many, many others) until, say, you're gifted short-gen Tinsels needing particular CB mates that you may not have or can't spare from other things, so that you may not be able to breed those shiny new Tinsels for months due to a lack of those CBs...

 

Besides, we've already had such difficulties happening, and I'm sorry but for many of us, it sucks quite badly enough already.

 

Obviously the idea of migration appeals to a lot of people, but I rather wonder if they've really applied it to DC life and the variety of commonly appearing scenarios adversely affected - or halted in their tracks - by this.

 

If so, then never mind me.

 

But for what it's worth, (maybe nothing, lol but here it is anyway, ) I have found that finding and catching various of the wanted CB commons is difficult to almost impossible already for a number of us, and in earlier years, some of us were under the impression that more new dragon types would over time replace the 'need' for having too many of ultra-common types in the Cave to stretch Drops out and make it a hunt.

 

We can easily see that that didn't work out.

 

While I am frequently mistaken, it does appear fairly clear to me that whatever we do, under current ratios, there will always be too many of some types for the player population to willingly absorb and that will spoil our playing time by blocking the Cave.

 

As much as I and others appreciate people making efforts toward trying to reduce Cave blockage problems, I really don't think that depriving people even more year-round of whatever slim chance they have of catching whatever wanted commons they need will do much for a happier game.

 

My 2 cents, at any rate, thanks for reading if anyone did, lol.

[stogucheme]

@Syphoneira:

I am not going to claim this wasn't the thread's intention, but it certainly wasn't my intention. Migration, IMHO, should only apply to ultra-commons. Greens, Stones, Whiptails, Neotropicals, etc. They certainly shouldn't apply to BSA or less common dragons! But that's just what I think.

[Disturbedchic]

Something I just wanted to point out, migration in nature isn't static and unchanging, its fluid. There are always species that alter their migration patterns or populations that cease to migrate and become permanent residents or species that start migrating or migrate further than before. You have have a species where some members of the species that live in one location migrate while a population in another area doesn't migrate or moves very little.

 

An example of this where I live is observed in canadian geese. Canadian geese are supposed to be a migratory species but some populations decided to become permanent residents here because they've found consistent food supplies and ideal habitats from the human populations. So while on a whole canadian geese migrate, we do now have permanent colonies and flocks in this area.

 

So I don't see why the dragon migration patterns wouldn't be fluid and designed to keep up with ranging demands. You can think of a species with high demand as being in a location that is nearly always catering to its needs with high resources so it doesn't migrate or migrates a little while a low demand species are in locations that are low on resources and have a greater need to migrate.

[StormWizard212]

@Syphoneira:

I am not going to claim this wasn't the thread's intention, but it certainly wasn't my intention. Migration, IMHO, should only apply to ultra-commons. Greens, Stones, Whiptails, Neotropicals, etc. They certainly shouldn't apply to BSA or less common dragons! But that's just what I think.

But the problem there is that dragon availability changes all the time. The dragons that are blockers at the moment might be extremely rare in the future (like how blacks have changed) so it would mean constantly having to re-assess which dragons are "too common" and which aren't. Which would make things very complicated.

 

While I do see the merits in the idea, I'm not quite sure the benefits outweigh the frustrations that would come along with it. Yes, it would mean that when metals aren't being dropped in the cave, you can breed them more... but the more you breed your metals successfully, the less CBs there will be when they come back, due to the increased number of bred ones. So for the ultra rare dragons, it would become even more impossible to find them CB and it would mainly be bred ones floating around.

 

But for the cave blockers, I think the effect would be the opposite. I think if blockers suddenly disappeared from the cave because they were out of season, people would be relieved, not inclined to breed them more. I doubt there would be much breeding of them at all. Which would then mean that when they come back in season, there would be even more of the blockers dropped in the cave to make up for the fact that we'd gone months with hardly any of them being bred.

 

So I don't think that this would help the cave blocker problem at all. I think it would just mean that for half the time, there are none because they're out of season, but then the other half there will be double the amount which would be a real nuisance. I doubt it would alleviate the problem entirely, just balance it out differently.

 

So yeah, I don't really support this since I don't think it would help the cave blocker situation. The only thing that I think will help is time and potentially new BSAs being implemented for those dragons to make them more desirable.

[Syphoneira]

You keep talking about blockers migrating.

 

Don't forget, the breeds you want will also migrate.

 

 

 

Just bringing this up for anyone who hasn't yet seen it.

 

The resulting permutations from having a perpetually fluid Cave population regarding different sprites with ratios constantly fluctuating how? because the balance currently considered ideal by the Cave system (if not by some of us, lol) is then missing a varying variety of its base is something else I suspect may not have been adequately taken into consideration in initial discussions.

 

 

Edit: there seems to be an assumption that it will not be difficult/impossible to breed species away on migration - do we know this to be true?

 

Isn't it possible, perhaps likely, that they may only breed, or only breed at normal rates, in the season of their return or something similar?

 

 

Re-edit for further clarification: will it really help if say, the numbers of Fogs and Earth/Green dragons doubled every day to cover the ratios for the up to 6 months the Mints and Stones are missing?

 

This multiplied by however many other sprites are on walk-about over this period, and whatever common replaces each of them in number, thereby over-loading the Cave with that type by that much more?

 

Or even if we're simply buried under whatever happens to be returning and miss the next migratory return which has no room to appear in the Cave because nobody wants to perpetually fill up on the same 6 blockers we never do catch up on?

 

 

Waaaaay back when, we used to think the AP would be better when we at least had more variety in AP blockers - and it was, lol.

 

At least there was an increased chance that somebody on at the time might want or be willing to take one of the 6 or 8 or whatever breeds might likely be there, rather than having predominately one or two breeds in most of the time.

 

Variety being the spice of life and all...

Edited January 6, 2012 by Syphoneira

[DayGloryNightGlory]

i know this is random but, perhaps instead of leaving the cave completely/almost completely, they simply move to a different area. true, they will clog up the new biome, but chances are it will free up other breeds to appear in their old biome.

just sayin'

*derp-de-derp-merp*

 

[Obscure_Trash]

~In case people would like to continue discussion on this or bring up new ideas. I do suggest keeping in mind TJ's comment that not only blockers will migrate, but also breeds you want.~

Edited September 4, 2014 by SockPuppet Strangler

[olympe]

Not every breed would have to migrate. After all, if you look at animals, some do migrate and others don't. In some bird species - I forgot which ones - there are even some individuals who do migrate and others that don't.

 

The way I see this, metallics really shouldn't migrate, they're too rare as it is. However, it sure would make sense if some dragons would be more likely to lay eggs in a certain time of the year.

[Natayah]

I'm not entirely sure why every breed would need to migrate. For example, breeds that live in volcanoes are, generally, always going to be in a hot climate no matter whats going on outside. Maybe volcanoes are less active in certain areas at certain times of year and so they move around to other volcanoes in other areas? But it doesn't seem like every area with every breed would need to migrate.

 

I get if its required as a coding thing because if coding is done, it has to be an all or nothing situation. But if that's not the case, then shouldn't the breed creator be the one who gets to decide if their dragons are a migrating species or not, or if during certain times of the year they migrate to other biomes or areas? Because that would certainly make things interesting for CB locations since with some dragons (mostly copper but maybe more in the future), location of CB determines offspring.

 

But I don't think this would need to be an all or nothing situation. There are other things that cause CB eggs appearing to flux like coding changes. Why would migration be any different?

Edited September 4, 2014 by natayah

[Fuzzbucket]

I am very iffy about this. I haven't forgotten the year winters just vanished from the face of the cave, and all seasonal linages were held up for an entire year.... It was horrid

[JavaTigress]

I am... not SURE how I feel about this.

 

It might work out fine, IF it were handled well; BUT if it were not I could see it becoming a real problem. It certainly would make the dragon breeds seem more realistic... I mean, most species do not breed all year around. I guess if this were implemented, I would have to trust that TJ knows what he is doing.

[cyradis4]

I think I'd be ok with seasonal shifts in the ratios, so for instance in fall the Harvests would breed better then they do in the spring, but I do not support non-seasonals simply leaving the cave for a period of time.

 

As for shifting biomes, I think that'd make things worst, actually. People would never know what would be where.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

[olympe]

Agreed. These dragons might actually migrate somewhere - but that doesn't mean that they have to breed there, too. Besides, isn't DC all about keeping things simple?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I like the idea of partial migration. Some breeds could dip from common to uncommon, others from common to rare, and so on and so forth. I do think SOME of that breed should be present at all times, though (non-migratory populations woo!), even if they're only present at 1% of their normal rate or something.

 

I think between biome migration would be interesting as well. Some biomes seem to be a lot more active than others (at least from what I hear), so having things move around might shake things up a bit.

[_Sin_]

You keep talking about blockers migrating.

 

Don't forget, the breeds you want will also migrate.

Well, I was all for the suggestion until I read TJ's post. I'm a collector, not a breeder. The idea of dealing with trading for bred BSA and bred whatever I need makes me very uncomfortable: I can see now what happens at the beginning and end of seasons on the trading threads. So, regretfully, no support.

[edwardelricfreak]

I'm definitely more in favor of having every dragon still present all the time, just maybe more rare during certain times. Some people hardly log in at all except for during significant breaks like winter and summer; they would miss out on the spring and fall dragons unless they traded for bred ones.

 

I'm also in support of possibly having certain dragons breed better or breed more eggs during certain times.

 

I'd rather not see dragons vanish altogether.

[irercha]

I'm against it, sorry. I want dragons to be available for my projects when I need them, as it is now (and yes, common ones too). I do few projects with seasonals, simply because they involve long waiting periods... so no, I don't want that to be the case with other breeds.

 

[Fiona]

I don't think having any breed be completely absent is a good idea. Not only would that hinder projects but make things impossible for people who have RL commitments during the year that make it hard to play for extended periods. That is beside the issue of new players trying to learn the game only to find out a breed they're interested in is unavailable in the cave. I'm not opposed to a reduction in some breeds' availability during various times of the year, but I don't think it needs to be all breeds, or even most breeds. It would have to be based on what makes sense for the breed. I also don't think migration should affect breeding, if the two calculations are indeed separate.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Fiona BlueFire

[Jazeki]

I don't think having any breed be completely absent is a good idea. Not only would that hinder projects but make things impossible for people who have RL commitments during the year that make it hard to play for extended periods. That is beside the issue of new players trying to learn the game only to find out a breed they're interested in is unavailable in the cave. I'm not opposed to a reduction in some breeds' availability during various times of the year, but I don't think it needs to be all breeds, or even most breeds. It would have to be based on what makes sense for the breed. I also don't think migration should affect breeding, if the two calculations are indeed separate.

I agree with Fi's sentiments should this be implemented.

[_Sin_]

I don't think having any breed be completely absent is a good idea. Not only would that hinder projects but make things impossible for people who have RL commitments during the year that make it hard to play for extended periods. That is beside the issue of new players trying to learn the game only to find out a breed they're interested in is unavailable in the cave. I'm not opposed to a reduction in some breeds' availability during various times of the year, but I don't think it needs to be all breeds, or even most breeds. It would have to be based on what makes sense for the breed. I also don't think migration should affect breeding, if the two calculations are indeed separate.

So... some dragons migrate but they must leave their eggs behind because they can't carry all of them. Basically those breeds will become rare or at least uncommon. Makes sense. Am I understanding your point?

[Fiona]

Yes, exactly. For most breeds I think a 50% reduction in drop rates would turn them uncommon and not rare. One of the things that would happen when a breed returned from migration would be that for a time it would be much more common though. If a breed goes from 50% of the base drop rate to 100% of the base drop rate at once, the cave is going to drop a lot of them to try to bring the numbers up.

 

This is not outside reality though. How many Canadian geese do we see all over the place when they return in the spring? They're everywhere. (I live where this is an annual occurrence) Another thing that is true is that not all of them migrate. A few hang around longer in the fall, some never actually leave. It's rare to see Canadian geese in the winter where I live, but it happens. Most of them go further south. Some of them live much further north during the summer and I guess they figure we're far enough south to suit them.

 

That's the kind of migration I'd like to see for DC, if migration is implemented. Decide on a dragon by dragon basis what migration makes sense for the breed and never reduce any breed to 0% at any time during the year.

 

One thing to note. Breeds that fall in all biomes are highly adaptable breeds. That means their tendency would be to not migrate, or have a smaller migration pattern. So, less of them would leave (if any) and would be away for a shorter period.

[Jelly_Doughnut]

It sounds like a good idea. But I don't think seasonal dragons should move, because they pretty much already migrate to wherever they would be found for the season. I do, however, think the idea of some dragons justbeing much harder to find, as opposed to being impossible to find, as the demand for them would rise quite a bit when they came back, speeding up the biomes a lot.

[Pixxelation]

This idea sounds more like hibernation than migration. I would support a true migration suggestion, where breeds move between between biomes depending on the season to alleviate such things as the overpopulated Alpine and underpopulated Coast, with rarities shifting a bit, but I am against this form of the suggestion.

Edited October 11, 2014 by PieMaster

[lindsy95]

I love it, I think it sounds like a great idea.