Ascension

[Obscure_Trash]

It seems this thread got back on track, but since I got quite a few reports for this while I was gone, I'm going to close this thread for a while so I can go through it without having to worry about new posts.

 

No worries, I will re-open this later today. :3

[Obscure_Trash]

Alright, I'm re-opening this thread. Remember to play nice. Don't say anything you wouldn't want said to you. Debate points; no attacking people or points. Use the report button, even if you're not sure. It's my job to go through reports and use my own judgment on them. I'd rather receive 10 reports for something than none. ^^

 

~

 

I'm not for ascending frozen hatchies, either. It doesn't really make sense to go from eternal hatchling to "super adult". o-o

 

If we had options for ascending - how would this be handled? You choose one for the dragon/your scroll and then you can only try that one? Both options are available? Wat up?

 

With a time limit of a few months for how long before dragons can ascend, I don't really see much of a need for a limit for how many dragons you can ascend at once. If people would rather a limit, though, one per month is way too little, IMO. Something closer to the frozen limit or even more seems reasonable. I'm not exactly sure why there's a frozen hatchie limit, but I've always assumed it was so you couldn't just use it as a constant out to unlock yourself a few days earlier. With ascended dragons really having nothing to do with the limit of dragons you can do, a limit doesn't really make sense to me. ;3

[HeatherMarie]

I think people want an "at once" limit so that when/if it's implimented, older users don't go ascending their older dragons 100 at a time or whatever. I definitely think the limit, if there is one, should be on par with freezing hatchlings.

[Obscure_Trash]

But what does it matter if they do? If we're giving ascendeds more powerful/less cooldown time BSAs or something, I would see why it matters, but if all it's doing is changing the sprite, why not? o-o

 

/thought people said no to that or just didn't want to discuss it, but I have bad memory

[Lythiaren]

@Lyth: Please attack the argument, not the person. Insinuating that I like to turn my brain off for entertainment isn't the way to go if you want to win any argument with me.

 

And, even if you feel you have to attack an argument, please read the whole line of argument instead of repeating yourself over and over again. Just because my mind was going a few steps further without me expressly putting them into words the first time around doesn't mean the whole argument is moot. The fact that you don't like my line of argument doesn't mean it's moot, either.

#

Also, the fact that some people prefer to reward patience rather than repeating the same "interesting" action of clicking an action over and over again does not mean that their way is worse than yours. Patience is as valuable a trait as diligence. So, let me turn this around: Why do you have to be so impatient that you cannot wait for your dragons to be able to ascend naturally?

 

Also, the "ascension via magic potion" already affects the discussion about "ascension via time", which is what I hoped wouldn't happen. In order to make the search for the magic potion viable, people are now suggesting more or less severe limits on people's ability to ascend their dragons. Because search wouldn't make as much sense if you could ascend all your dragons older than X months once ascension is available. So, ascension needs to be limited to give the people with a clicking addiction a greater sense of accomplishment once they actually find the ascension potion.

 

So, yes, the discussion aboub ascension through a potion already affects the simple solution I'd like to see implemented.

 

(And, before you get started, I don't mind a limit to ascension, as long as it is within reason. 1 dragon each months is way beyond what I consider reasonable, but freezing limits for ascending just might work.)

Says the person who spent half the thread insinuating that I'm trying to force people to play the way I want them to, despite my continuous insistence that the item option is just that: an option. This entire debate your theme has been "Well I don't want impatient people to be rewarded, you have to play my way even if you're willing to do extra work." Random is random, you don't have to like it but don't tell us we aren't allowed to like it.

 

Your line of reasoning is flawed because you're insisting that the entire userbase must enjoy staring blankly at a clock and is not allowed to not enjoy staring at clocks, therefore no one should even be given the option to speed things up. You argue that diligence should not be rewarded at all. You ask, why do I have to be so impatient? Well why am I not allowed to be impatient? Why am I not allowed to speed up a process that would otherwise take months? Are people not allowed to use TGT now because it would get them rares they would otherwise take months to obtain? If I'm willing to do extra work to get a bonus, why should I be denied it?

 

To put this into a more onsite RP perspective, why shouldn't a dragon be able to challenge an exam (ie. perform the ascension rites early) if he did the extra work (found an important artifact) and is already prepared? Why shouldn't he be allowed to reap the fruits of his labor? Is it somehow disrespectful of his neighbour who's waiting?

 

 

Soft limit. Hard portion of X natural ascensions over time period of Y, soft in that item-based ascensions do not count toward said limit. Item option is now suddenly viable and appealing to those willing to do the work required, not gamebreaking in the least when paired with a low droprate that ensures someone can't ascend a dozen extra dragons per week, but appealing enough that people might consider trying their luck once in a while. Reward granted for those willing to do extra credit work. If no one uses it I'll still sit on my pile of useless crap and like it. Is it an advantage? Clearly. But it would be a well-deserved one if you're willing to repeat the action as diligently as some people repeatedly summon or spam rare breedings. What exactly is this massive problem you see with rewarding extra credit work? Why is it so threatening that you have to cry out that it should never be rewarded ever? I've been asking this for a long while and you haven't been bothered to answer with anything aside from "I personally do not want this, therefore no one else is allowed to want this." Meanwhile, people who are trying to compromise are bewildered because you won't be satisfied until you've squashed out the very idea that RNG might not be so bad if you could just not use it and still achieve the same thing with some extra waiting.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Lythiaren

[Kirbyburn]

Frankly, i'm tired of this arguement. Yall all have just been saying the samething over and over again....

 

Basically this is what I see>

 

One side does not want to wait for all the time to ascend. (potions)

The other does not want an unfair advantage.(no potions)

Neither wants to change conditions.(only age)*

One argues that chance/randomess will always be "unfair"(no potions)

The other argues that it's already like that(potions)

 

Solutions:

A SET drop rate(ex. 2 potions a month)

Potions only from events

No ascending

 

 

 

* The majority of yall here said different conditions would be to complicated. Now its ironic, because it seems that age has only made things worse. Im still infavor of having atleast some different conditions for all dragons.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Kirbyburn

[RheaZen]

... all of your solutions are worse than what's already been proposed.

[Fuzzbucket]

... all of your solutions are worse than what's already been proposed.

For me, age would be the MOST important thing.

[Kirbyburn]

... all of your solutions are worse than what's already been proposed.

Whats been proposed?

[~!~]

What exactly is this massive problem you see with rewarding extra credit work? Why is it so threatening that you have to cry out that it should never be rewarded ever?

I would think this is obvious. She doesn't want to do the extra work, not because it's extra work, but because of the nature of the work. She doesn't want to give people an advantage for doing this work, for the same reason nobody likes donor perks. If there are any advantages whatsoever associated with it, the site will favor people who do it. And if the site favors people who like searching for an item to do a thing, it will lean in that direction, because the userbase will shift that way.

 

For instance, say breeding were to be implemented today. Many users would cry out, stating that it gives a decided advantage to people who like the kind of site where you can breed the little animals you collect. The site will move in the direction of people who like breeding. And, lo and behold, it has. Alts, breed-only dragons, the entire lineage showing up on its own page; all features that assume the userbase is interested in breeding.

[KageSora]

Whats been proposed?

• Potion-only ascension
• Time-only ascension
• Time-based ascension and potion-based ascensions making each a choice rather than a requirement
• Time-based ascension with a potion to by-pass a limit of how many you can ascend per X period of time or lower/remove a cooldown

 

Possibly more variations, but that's what I remember right now. People have been debating which way is the best way to go.

[Obscure_Trash]

Guys, addressing a person is debating or attacking them rather than their point. Please address your arguments to no one, as addressing them specifically to other people is just ending up with hurt feelings and circular arguments. Address the point, not the person. =\

 

I was under the impression that either the potion or age option would be generally the same wait time (maybe ending up with a little less or little more time than the set age). The potion option would just give those who were bored a little something to do. It could be argued that the hard work or searching deserves a decidedly shorter period, but really, what's so hard about clicking around the site looking for something? We do that all the time when searching for eggs. Compared to the "hard work" of waiting? We also do that all the time when searching for eggs or waiting for new releases or events. I think both are really along the same level of hard work. o.O

[SlowHornpipe172]

Is there anyone out there who is against having BOTH age-based AND potion-based ascension? Cos I don't think I've seen anyone arguing that we should have only one and not the other, and if that's the case, then we're just going in circles. But correct me if I'm wrong.

[Aurora-Silver]

I'm for the option that the cooldown should be like freezing, but maybe the limit increases with the trophy level, like it's proposed for the egg / hatchie limits.

 

Also, Ascending should be available when the dragon has reached a certain age.

[Kirbyburn]

Is there anyone out there who is against having BOTH age-based AND potion-based ascension? Cos I don't think I've seen anyone arguing that we should have only one and not the other, and if that's the case, then we're just going in circles. But correct me if I'm wrong.

I kinda am, but from the looks of it, that's outta reach.

 

@Kage, so im basically accept for the last option. We've still been debating over the samething.

 

@Everyone

Can some explain to me why we can only use age for ascending?

[Aurora-Silver]

I must admit, I am not for the Potions.

 

Potion means, it must be bought or collected in some way, and we don't collect items here (yet, because hoarding has been suggested and I dunno if it could make it possible to find potions as well)

 

That's why I am for the aging part.

[Kirbyburn]

I must admit, I am not for the Potions.

 

Potion means, it must be bought or collected in some way, and we don't collect items here (yet, because hoarding has been suggested and I dunno if it could make it possible to find potions as well)

 

That's why I am for the aging part.

But what about other options?

[Fengari]

@Everyone

Can some explain to me why we can only use age for ascending?

EDIT: added in the quote to clarify what I was replying to.

 

I think it is a basically for flavor reasons: in a lot of stories ascending has something to do with being an Elder or something other age related. I think that is why a lot of people feel only dragons of a certain age should be able to ascend.

But there are other stories where 'ascending' is not age related. For example in the Magic The Gathering storylines, becoming a planeswalker has to do with having 'the spark' (kind of a rare genetic trait apparently) which then gets triggered by a massive event in the life of the character.

So from a flavor/RP point of view both are viable.

 

For me personally, this is how I would like to see it:

- the 'ascend' action only becomes available for a dragon after reaching a certain age. (And for me that could be a very high age, say a year... It would give new incentives to players who already got all their goals, while newer players still have a lot of other things to go for.)

- the 'ascend' action has a low success rate (but maybe not so low as the current summoning rate, as that seems to tick people off...) and a long cooldown.

- a potion can be used to significantly increase succes rate.

 

But seen purely in the light of DC gameplay (with an emphasis on free choice of how you want to play) I think it would be better to have a potion option available regardless of age (not everyone is playing with so many flavor and RP on their mind as I am).

Edited March 20, 2011 by Fengari

[olympe]

As I might have said before, I'm not against people searching for potions to ascend, as long as I won't be forced to do this in order to get ascended dragons. It's too reminiscent of the summon fiasco, and I'm so tired of summoning that I've done so about two times this year. After all, it doesn't ever work anyway.

 

That, and that alone, is why I, personally, prefer a time-based ascension option over one involving "work" and sheer dumb luck. That does not mean that I don't want other people to get that chance, as long as their chance doesn't impact the time-based ascension.

 

So, please remind me, why do some people want a limit on the number of dragons you can ascend in a given period of time? Why does there have to be a low success rate, as some people ask for? And why add a long cooldown to that? (Sounds to me like adding insult to injury.)

[Fuzzbucket]

As I might have said before, I'm not against people searching for potions to ascend, as long as I won't be forced to do this in order to get ascended dragons. It's too reminiscent of the summon fiasco, and I'm so tired of summoning that I've done so about two times this year. After all, it doesn't ever work anyway.

 

That, and that alone, is why I, personally, prefer a time-based ascension option over one involving "work" and sheer dumb luck. That does not mean that I don't want other people to get that chance, as long as their chance doesn't impact the time-based ascension.

 

So, please remind me, why do some people want a limit on the number of dragons you can ascend in a given period of time? Why does there have to be a low success rate, as some people ask for? And why add a long cooldown to that? (Sounds to me like adding insult to injury.)

I don't get the need for a specially long cooldown at all. Or the limits on numbers - if it is age related and you have a dragon that qualifies, why should you not be able to ascend it (if you CHOOSE to.) Any kind of fail rate means it isn't automatic, and a normal kind of cooldown per eligible dragon - or even per scroll - would be fine. (Two weeks, as with incubate ??)

 

I can see a limit on (if we have to have it !) the number of potion related attempts - say one a month MAX ?

[Fengari]

I can't speak for 'people', but for me that also has to do with flavor. I feel an ascended dragon should be a rare thing, not 'just another stage' every dragon in the end gets to (for me, that would have to be called 'old', not 'ascended'...). A high success rate and/or long cooldown would give that sense of rarity. That is why I would make it so if I was to design it just for myself.

 

But again, I appreciate that not everybody feels the same way about flavor as I do, so I have no problem with a high success rate and low cooldown either, if I don't want all my dragons to ascend because it doesn't feel right to me, I don't have to, right?

 

I just thought of another way to implement the rarity factor without making it hard to get. Maybe you could only ascend one dragon per breed per gender? So one male and one female for every breed. What do people think about that?

[Fiona]

I just thought of another way to implement the rarity factor without making it hard to get. Maybe you could only ascend one dragon per breed per gender? So one male and one female for every breed. What do people think about that?

But why should I be limited to only one male and female of a breed if I want more than that? Maybe I completely love the ascended white and want a scroll full.

 

One issue I think should affect how many/how quickly we can get ascended dragons is whether ascension has any other effect than a pretty new sprite. If it's just a different picture but no other effects, I say, why not let people ascend their dragons quickly if they choose? It doesn't give them any advantage in the game. So, in that case, there's no real reason to impose a scroll limit or a limit to the number of potions a person can use in a given time (provided they can find them) The only limit would be whether you've had the dragon long enough for those you ascend by age, or your luck in finding potions.

 

If being ascended has anything other than a cosmetic affect, then I can see imposing stricter limits.

[Fengari]

Even if only cosmetic, I can imagine eggs from ascended parents being valued more than eggs from non-ascended parents. DC trading values are funny like that, they care about a lot more than the actual gameplay.

 

In this game 'wanting' does not always equal 'getting'. I would like a scroll full of Yulebucks but there is a limit of 2...

Edited March 20, 2011 by Fengari

[KageSora]

Even if only cosmetic, I can imagine eggs from ascended parents being valued more than eggs from non-ascended parents. DC trading values are funny like that, they care about a lot more than the actual gameplay.

I don't see why that would be a problem--ascension wouldn't be limited to a select few people or anything. It'd be basically the same thing as lineages--some people like the way it looks more than others and thus place a higher value on it. If the only restriction was time (and possibly getting around that with a potion), then nobody is barred from getting some themselves for too long.

 

 

I'm against putting a limit on how many you can ascend total, but I could see putting a limit like freezing with X per Y weeks or something, just so long as that limit was reasonable.

[RheaZen]

I'm against putting a limit on how many you can ascend total, but I could see putting a limit like freezing with X per Y weeks or something, just so long as that limit was reasonable.

This, especially if the limit is flexible and based off your trophy - just like how egg and hatchling limits are going to be.