Ascension

[annageckos]

I am going to stay out of this argument. I just wanted to say that I favor having both, by age and a potion to ascend. That way you have a option to just wait it out, or try to speed it up with a potion you may or may not find. If you do not like the idea of items, you are not forced to use it.

[Lythiaren]

Not exactly that.

 

I think KageSora explained it very well. The point is, right now we introduce potions to make ascended dragons. It's a very inocent add on, it's not neccesary at all because you can choose whether to do it by potion, or to do it by waiting the 6 months.

 

How long until items DO become neccesary? How long until we suddenly have a Super Saiyan form and we do need the potion for it?

 

Or a magick lamp with a djini dragon in it?

 

Or maybe GoNs will become breedable only through a potion?

 

Or... so on.

 

It's a risk I'd rather not take, personally.

 

In another note, if by waiting 6 months we get the ascended option, why a potion? Why not a BSA? Just like we wait 4 days for the egg to hatch, but can reduce it to three in the case of Incubate.

hi

That's mainly the reason I'm not too fond of items. That, and because I just don't see the point in hoarding a bunch of old boots, gold nuggets, rings and other trash. In petsites, these things have a reason, however stupid some are. You can sell them for money you use for something else, give your monsters superpowers, food, clothing, and so on.

How long until DC goes that exact way? Why have a gold nugget if you can't use it? Only to look at it?

Why have an apple you can't use?

 

So those are mainly my thoughts on the topic. I'm not completely No-No in the idea, I just don't trust the thing will stop just there, giving us two possible options.

 

EDIT;

 

Skinst. I am not opposing to ideas. People have suggested longer cooldown, a fail rate, so on. I did not oppose to that, actually, I do think there should be a bit of a fail rate, however not as frustrating as Summon. Something closer to vampires. you get some kills, you get some tosses out, but in the end, and after hard work, you get your vampire army. Until I got my first female (my first vamp was a lucky catch, a male), I spent two kills and one toss out, three months.

Well, I was not unhappy with that. Sure, you get annoyed the first five minutes, but right now I have about 7 or 8 vamps (haven't counted them), and I don't have more because I'm not biting. From time to time I bite just to toss to the AP for others to grab.

 

Anyways, I am open to ideas. Just read back and see, because frankly, it seems like you who is not reading. Maybe my non english native thing is the problem at not making myself clear but, until the whole potion thing was brought up, I did not disagreed vehemently to any idea, and actually contributed with my very own.

 

However, others have usually better ideas than me, so maybe I'm not voicing myself so strongly in that aspect.

 

I have agreed it should be a click only thing, the six months sound great, or maybe a BSA (I think I suggested that somewhere in the thread).

 

So no, I'm not closing myself to every idea. I'm merely closing myself to the idea of items due to what I have already explained. Do I need to repeat myself endlessly?

Can we actually just go on with the real topic here?

How long, then, before high-horse people like you get your way and TJ starts taking steps to make sure the site is not in any way like any petsite in existence? Descriptions are on every petsite, we can't have that. Byebye, descriptions. Oh wait, risk-free trading is a feature of most of those too, ther goes teleport. Some of them have breeding, let's lose that too. Most if not all petsites allow us to name dragons, we can't have that! Petsites have a wide variety of adoptables, quick, we have to make all the dragons identical to make this site unique!

 

Oh wait, now DC is just a pixel dispenser.

 

Your logic goes both ways. The moment one item is introduced with a use, does not mean that suddenly there has to be a large collection of usables. Even if this somehow was the case, nothing is mandatory and what you've been doing really just amounts to forcing your playstyle on everyone. If an option becomes mandatory by nature of its use, it's a balance issue and needs to be corrected. Have some faith in TJ, he knows where to draw some lines. A breed switching potion is probably never going to go through, for example.

 

I haven't seen you present any kind of ideas beyond "I want to wait, therefore everyone should be forced to wait because that's how I want to play." My entire participation in this debate has amounted to presenting the idea that people who have more time on their hands should be allowed to find another way.

 

Your suggestion that it be done through BSAs is flawed as well. Why a BSA? Some things cannot be accomplished through that means, but that doesn't mean those things can't add anything to the game. Some things fit every breed while some things fit nothing. Many of those things really add nothing to gameplay or can be abused. Items, however, can be balanced. Consumable items even prevent feature spam because you can only spam it until you run out of items. Search is one of those things that can be done by everything; what exactly makes it so x breed is able to look for stuff and prevents every other breed from doing so? Speeding up Ascension via BSA is one of those things that fits nothing. What breed exactly would even be able to do that?

 

As for the point of hoarding a bunch of old junk?

 

It was mentioned earlier in the thread and you completely missed it. Western dragons are notorious treasure hoarders. Want an example? In The Hobbit, the dragon Smaug slept on his treasure pile so much that it had stuck to his soft underside and formed a thick layer of armor. Bilbo managed to slay Smaug by stabbing him in a space that was not protected by stuck bits of treasure.

[SlowHornpipe172]

Now, compare that to this: You can wait for your Dragons to be able to ascend, or you can go and find the potion and speed up the process. Either way, you get the result you want.

 

So, for casual players who don't want to spend hours online, can just check the site again in, say, 3 months and ascend their dragons. While others who want to go nuts and find potions can also do that and ascend their dragons faster.

 

In the end, the result is the same.

Skinst says good things.

 

I still think there should be a one-ascension-per-month limit or somesuch once this is implemented if time-based is an option, to prevent old farts like me ascending hundreds of dragons.

[Kirbyburn]

Skinst says good things.

 

I still think there should be a one-ascension-per-month limit or somesuch once this is implemented if time-based is an option, to prevent old farts like me ascending hundreds of dragons.

No, we already discussed that there shouldnt be a limited, you've "already" waited for your dragon to age.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Kirbyburn

[~!~]

I haven't seen you present any kind of ideas beyond "I want to wait, therefore everyone should be forced to wait because that's how I want to play."

That's not an uncommon sentiment among players here. An element that is added to a game can change the feel of the game, whether or not people choose to use that element. For instance, what if DN was objecting to a new breed of dragon, that was significantly different from the other dragons in DC? She could always choose not to collect that dragon. But the very existence of that dragon would affect the site in ways that would eventually affect her.

[Dr. Paine]

Skinst says good things.

 

I still think there should be a one-ascension-per-month limit or somesuch once this is implemented if time-based is an option, to prevent old farts like me ascending hundreds of dragons.

I don't see why that's really needed...

[Lythiaren]

Simple enough, it shouldn't be too easy to ascend, otherwise it loses its value. How special and cool is your ascended red when you got a dozen of them last week? Not very.

 

A month might be a bit much, though.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Lythiaren

[Angziety]

Why not like frozen hatchies, whith a limit of X a month/week.

[Lythiaren]

That would probaly work better, methinks. One per month is a little excessive given the number of breeds we have and the multi-breed nature of releases.

 

Plus the system is already in place.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Lythiaren

[Dr. Paine]

Simple enough, it shouldn't be too easy to ascend, otherwise it loses its value. How special and cool is your ascended red when you got a dozen of them last week? Not very.

 

A month might be a bit much, though.

Maybe one a day/every couple of days? Lets people with a huge backlog start ascending their dragons fairly quickly, but not at an insane pace.

[Kirbyburn]

Maybe one a day/every couple of days? Lets people with a huge backlog start ascending their dragons fairly quickly, but not at an insane pace.

3 Dragons every month.

[DragonNighthowler]

I am on the high horse? I am making wild assumptions by voicing my opinion on the matter? WTF? O_O

[KageSora]

I still think there should be a one-ascension-per-month limit or somesuch once this is implemented if time-based is an option, to prevent old farts like me ascending hundreds of dragons.

Mmm, I think "one a month" would be bad, for people like us who have several hundred dragons--I'd be more in favor of a limit along the lines of freezing or killing, or maybe like 10-15 per month. Or perhaps it could tie in to the trophy level--X per month for a bronze trophy, Y per month for a silver trophy, and Z per month for a gold trophy to correspond to the increasing number of adults you have. Personally, though, I don't think there should be a limit--the mass "upgrade" of dragons would really only happen at the start once it was added and then maybe scattered here or there if an older player came back to a large scroll or something after some time. Though I suppose what Lyth says is true, too, about it not being as special if you can just do it super-easily.

 

Or, maybe, it could correspond to the maximum number of dragons you could raise in a given week?

 

Maybe we should just have one potion drop every month.

I think that'd be a bad idea. If we did go with the potion idea, I'd rather see it either incorporated into a larger feature (like search or something) or handled in a similar way to the ToT and Egg Hunt events--it'll show up every so often for each player, and when that player sees it they grab it without worrying about fighting hundreds of other players to get it if it were to drop on the AP or in the main cave or something like that.

 

Unless you mean "one potion per month per user" or something?

 

Furthermore, regarding the slippery slope argument, how the heck does it relate to something as frivolous as playing dressup?  I'd like to see the chain of suggestions that would lead out that way.

Mostly I see it as a "Potion X leads to potion Y which leads to potion Z" and we eventually have potions being suggested for a number of things that are silly (instant-adult-just-add-potion or something, becasue hey instant-ascended-just-add-potion so why not?), and maybe some that remove elements of the game that are challenging/frustrating (depending on your PoV) being added eventually.

 

Though, as for something like leading to dress-up... Here's a chain:

 

 

Search feature added > collect silly trinkets > people get frustrated not having the specific trinket they want > people want to be able to trade trinkets > people want to be able to buy trinkets if they don't know anybody who has the one they want > people demand some sort of in-game currency > old trinkets can be sold for said in-game currency > shops designed to sell trinkets > people think it would look cool if a dragon could wear a trinket like a crown or something and are bored with said trinkets doing nothing > dragon trinket-wearing is added

 

 

(Mind you, I don't personally believe such would happen over a short time, or even possibly at all the way DC is run now--but things change, and you never know. Though if we ever did get to the dress-up point, I'd assume it'd be years down the line and DC probably would, at that point, be near unrecognizable from what it is now anyway.)

Edited March 14, 2011 by KageSora

[Dr. Paine]

3 Dragons every month.

Way too few. I'd be more on board with it being similar to the freeze limit... three a month is going to be torture on people with a huge backlog of dragons to get through. Which will probably be the majority of players.

[DragonNighthowler]

I still believe it should be more like vampire thing. A slight failure rate, with a cooldown of a couple of weeks, or so. It'll make it not so instant, and a bit more challenging. Good for both parts, who want it to be relatively easy or achievable, and for those looking for a greater challenge.

[Fiona]

I don't think you guys are giving TJ enough credit to make sure that "dragon wearing trinket" chain will never happen. Anything like in game currency? I'm pretty sure he's adamantly opposed to stuff like that. And also to dragons wearing stuff.

[Lythiaren]

Mostly I see it as a "Potion X leads to potion Y which leads to potion Z" and we eventually have potions being suggested for a number of things that are silly (instant-adult-just-add-potion or something, becasue hey instant-ascended-just-add-potion so why not?), and maybe some that remove elements of the game that are challenging/frustrating (depending on your PoV) being added eventually.

 

Though, as for something like leading to dress-up...  Here's a chain:

 

 

Search feature added  > collect silly trinkets  >  people get frustrated not having the specific trinket they want  >  people want to be able to trade trinkets  >  people want to be able to buy trinkets if they don't know anybody who has the one they want  >  people demand some sort of in-game currency  >  old trinkets can be sold for said in-game currency  >  shops designed to sell trinkets  >  people think it would look cool if a dragon could wear a trinket like a crown or something and are bored with said trinkets doing nothing  >  dragon trinket-wearing is added

 

 

(Mind you, I don't personally believe such would happen over a short time, or even possibly at all the way DC is run now--but things change, and you never know.  Though if we ever did get to the dress-up point, I'd assume it'd be years down the line and DC probably would, at that point, be near unrecognizable from what it is now anyway.)

Except TJ would probably just lolno and smile at people at the first mention of instant adulthood potions because "it's magic!" doesn't work that way, yah? Ascension being tied to one's power and development, a magic item (doesn't need to be a potion, 'memer?) could logically be a tool used to achieve these heights of power, like learning from ancient texts or studying a magic crystal to discover something new. Of course, over time a dragon may learn these things on their own, but having something to build that process on would be the logic behind use of an item. Waiting for months isn't a stretch for people like me (lol waiting 2 years for an adoptable) but I understand that most people are not like that.

 

And that chain is awfully long. At the fourth step, a predictable immediate response from several people (myself included!) will be "Why? It's not like they do anything." And in order for people to request a means of buying trinkets from people, there needs to be a currency system to begin with, not the other way around. That link seems a bit of a stretch, doesn't it? It would definitely require that TJ doesn't decide to veto it for going out on a limb. |D

Edited March 14, 2011 by Lythiaren

[DragonNighthowler]

I view KageSora's response as a metaphoric possibility rather than a fact.

[Fizzix]

What I see everyone saying:

 

1: Ascension is neat. Let's do that.

2: Options are good.

-- A certain age at which dragons can ascend unaided.

-- A certain magic item that allows dragons to ascend regardless of age (once they hit adult).

3: Some sort of limit to keep people from ascending everything ever all at once might be a good idea.

 

My personal thinking is we need to simmer down and take this back to basics. The search-and-find-an-ascension-aid system could probably easily be implemented using the existing easter/trick-or-treat coding. It'd be nice to have an option for people with high activity levels to ascend more quickly, but is not vital. I don't want to see that magical aid be the only method of ascension, but luckily I don't see anyone suggesting that.

 

I think we need to quit bickering over specifics and leave personal play styles out of it -- we have suggestions that would allow both active and less-active users to achieve the goal of ascension. Let's get back to talking more generally (and more civilly) about this until TJ comes in to tell us what we can and can't have with the potential system.

[Lythiaren]

I view KageSora's response as a metaphoric possibility rather than a fact.

So was my response. And so was your slippery slope, though you seemed rather swift to tote yours as a 100% inevitability rather than a minute possibility that would require that TJ loses sight of his original philosophy.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Lythiaren

[RheaZen]

(Pardon if I'm parroting, a bit lost among the tl;dr ^^

 

Maybe have the limits like the eggs/hatchlings limits? The more dragons you have, the more you can ascend per week?

 

5/10/15 for Bronze/Silver/Gold?

Edited March 14, 2011 by RheaZen

[KageSora]

Except TJ would probably just lolno and smile at people at the first mention of instant adulthood potions because "it's magic!" doesn't work that way, yah? Ascension being tied to one's power and development, a magic item (doesn't need to be a potion, 'memer?) could logically be a tool used to achieve these heights of power, like learning from ancient texts or studying a magic crystal to discover something new. Of course, over time a dragon may learn these things on their own, but having something to build that process on would be the logic behind use of an item. Waiting for months isn't a stretch for people like me (lol waiting 2 years for an adoptable) but I understand that most people are not like that.

 

And that chain is awfully long. At the fourth step, a predictable immediate response from several people (myself included!) will be "Why? It's not like they do anything." And in order for people to request a means of buying trinkets from people, there needs to be a currency system to begin with, not the other way around. That link seems a bit of a stretch, doesn't it? It would definitely require that TJ doesn't decide to veto it for going out on a limb. |D

True, still won't stop people suggesting it, though. And yeah, the chain is a bit of a stretch, more just a possibility that could happen than a probability of what would happen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Rhea: I like that idea myself, if we need limits. It would make sense, too.

[olympe]

No, DNH, you haven't answered my question. All you have done is state why you don't want it to be mandatory. The question I posed was specifically asking why you're opposed to having this option offered. Do I have to blow up the word "option" to size 24 font?

No, thanks, I can read quite well. And, as long as it is just one of several options, I couldn't care less.

 

But you argue all the time that the potions are so much more fun than "simply clicking an action" and that we (who don't like it) have to see how great and rewarding searching endlessly for them is. Well, it isn't, not to many players. Yet, as long as there is another, easier option, the search feature will suffer from being way harder than "simply clicking an action", so, in order to get many people to like searching, you'll have to fight the "easy way out" for everyone else. Which is pretty much why I voted for "action only" instead of "both action and item". Because the "both" choice would have looked as if I didn't have a set preference - which I do.

[Completely Different]

I still like the both idea, and here I'll explain why.

 

Firstly, the normal age ascension thing is the simplest. Your dragon reaches x age, can attempt to ascend (possibly with a y cool-down rate). Its understandable and presumably not too difficult to code, which gives it a higher chance of being implemented. And as some people have pointed out, they like that the game is low maintenance.

 

Some people, however, wish there was more to the game, which is why ideas such as Battling and Search/Hoard have been suggested.

 

Search, for the most part, would be another aspect of sprite collection- not dragons, but little things, like jewels and feathers and books. More collecting for a collection site, albeit in a different way that doesn't cause direct competition between users. People could choose to do it, or just stick to dragons. Their choice; it doesn't influence gameplay.

 

Then you could get an Ascension Potion among the search, although rarely, which could bypass the time-limit or cool-down. This would of course be nice for those who are impatient, or a bonus for people who just enjoy searching. But it wouldn't be necessary. You wouldn't be forcing anyone to put in time. Its an extra option, but just an option.

 

As for people afraid that it'll just be a slippery slope to an in-game currency and wearing trinkets- it seems like a rather tenuous link. Especially considering how long it takes most ideas to get to implementation stage, between users debating it, TJ considering it and him coding it, along with the fact that most of the users are definitely against those things (not to mention TJ). As for actually wearing trinkets....well, I don't actually see how that would work with the sprite system.

 

So, tl;dr:

Options are nice. Start simple, add options, and eventually we should probably get the best of both worlds.

[Lythiaren]

No, thanks, I can read quite well. And, as long as it is just one of several options, I couldn't care less.

 

But you argue all the time that the potions are so much more fun than "simply clicking an action" and that we (who don't like it) have to see how great and rewarding searching endlessly for them is. Well, it isn't, not to many players. Yet, as long as there is another, easier option, the search feature will suffer from being way harder than "simply clicking an action", so, in order to get many people to like searching, you'll have to fight the "easy way out" for everyone else. Which is pretty much why I voted for "action only" instead of "both action and item". Because the "both" choice would have looked as if I didn't have a set preference - which I do.

If you couldn't care less if the option was available, then why are you arguing so very hard against the mechanics of such an option, to the point of attempting to dismiss a low droprate by shrinking it to miniscule value rather than a reasonable one? Oh right, you were attacking my preference for challenge over merely staring at a clock. I prefer not to turn my brain off for my entertainment.

 

Fighting the easy way out is beyond simple enough. For many, searching will provide a chance to skip the wait altogether. The wait time becomes a safety net for those who either don't want to search or have bad luck with searching. You want to ascend as fast as possible? You grind. I will guarantee you that if you take two users with at least 100 dragons (takes approximately 6 months to accumulate if you raise 4 per week) and equal scroll population through a full year, the one who searches will ascend more dragons in a year than the one who merely sits on their hands and waits. Why? Because they will have had the timer as well as the ascension item(s) acquired through search. Will it actually be fun? For some, yes. Others like you will look at it and go "UGH NO" because it may well be that all you'll see is a lot of tedium. Which is fine too, because you don't have to do it. You're perfectly welcome to go sit over there in your chair and wait. Meanwhile, I and people like me will enjoy our useless coins, rocks, cracked pottery and broken statuettes while we grind away. We'll probably get frustrated a few times when search yields yet another shiny beetle or empty potion flask, but it will all feel worth it when we finally discover an ancient enchanted scroll and pop it for an extra ascension. The feeling of accomplishment when you finally obtain a rare thing is very potent.

 

Is it an advantage? Oh yes, yes it is. But is it gamebreaking? Considering how the user has to choose between searching every week for earlier ascensions or just ditching the work? No, no it's not. You're not going to be restricted to that one method, just as no user is restricted exclusively to cave, AP, or breeding to obtain eggs. You do the work you get a reward.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Lythiaren