Gender and Gender Identity

[MedievalMystic]

I wrote out a very long post already explaining all of this. =|

 

Sorry, I missed it..

 

"oh I want these gonads"

 

lmao!

Edited October 10, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[sparkle10184]

What if I don't want to be labeled? Yes, I have a vagina. Whoop-de-doo. That doesn't make me a girl or female or whatever. It doesn't make me anything. My vagina has absolutely nothing to do with what gender I indentify as. Vagina doesn't equal female, penis doesn't equal male. My vagina means I have something that people are going to use to stick me into a box and label me as they see fit. But those labels don't fit me. I'm not female. I'm not male.

Stop defining people by what's in their pants.

[MasterWeavile898]

And people should respect you and define you by your gender. That doesn't mean your sex doesn't exist. Especially since without your sex you wouldn't be able to define your gender (You just defined it as not male or female, but without male or female it has no definition)

 

To abolish sex is to abolish gender because gender is defined by sex

[Birdwhispers]

I currently identify as cisgender but I don't actually feel right being that at all. My main problem is that I don't know what else I could identify as and I figured I'd come here for help since it seems there are a lot of people educated on the matter. I've tried searching on my own, but I can't find results that are specific to my feelings or I get vague descriptions which don't help me at all (I might just such at searching too XP)

 

Anyways, I hate being in my female body. I don't feel comfortable and at times it even makes me mad. Everything about being female, especially the sex specific body parts and their functions and implications, just feels wrong and uncomfortable. But, this doesn't necessarily mean I want to identify as male/a man/a boy either. Sure, I'd enjoy my life a lot more if I were, but I don't have a strong desire to be that. I dislike my name being associated with the words "she" or "her" but I deal with it because that's all I've ever been referred to as. I feel like I have trouble relating with and befriending other females, except for a select few (and even then, most of my relationships fall apart with them after a couple years) because I feel some sort of disconnect(?). This isn't really necessary to indicate anything, but to add, I don't care about clothes or make-up or hair at all and honestly it makes me upset when my mother tries to get me to care about that stuff.

 

I don't really know what to do or think about this. I think with the way that I currently identify, I'm only becoming more unsatisfied and frustrated. In the past while, my dislike for the way I am is starting to become a dislike for the female sex in general. I'm not sexist or generally mean or anything, but I find that my anger towards myself sometimes gets extended towards other situations which don't even concern me. I never speak any of these thoughts, but I often feel inwardly frustrated because of who I am.

 

Anyways, I'm sorry if I've used any terms wrong or just in general have not been right about something. I'm quite new to the specifics of genders so please try not to be too hard on any mistakes I've made >_<

 

Also, I'm not good at conveying my thoughts properly in general, so I hope I don't come across as a bad person or someone who's just trying to get attention (like the people I've read a lot about in this topic so far). I'm alright with being properly informed, but please try not to be too bold or harsh. I'm very sensitive and I'm just genuinely looking for information.

[Shienvien]

Vagina doesn't equal female, penis doesn't equal male.

"Male"/"female" are terms that denote sex, not gender. They are terms that describe the physical body, the same as "pale complexion", "red hair" or "six feet tall." They have nothing to do with your gender, whether you are man/woman/girl/boy/agender/queer/genderfluid/etc.

[MasterWeavile898]

Not certain I can get behind that one. I don't mind using male/female to refer to gender, so long as the variation of male/female used for sex is clearly denoted as separate

 

(Also I feel really uncomfortable referring to myself as anything besides female or girl)

[Shienvien]

I don't mind using male/female to refer to gender, so long as the variation of male/female used for sex is clearly denoted as separate.

Using it for gender is what makes sex, well, indistinguishable from gender in many people's minds. There should not be a need for "clear denoting", since the word by itself should be completely unambiguous and make it clearly apparent which is being dealt with. Edited October 10, 2014 by Shienvien

[F.ury]

Not certain I can get behind that one. I don't mind using male/female to refer to gender, so long as the variation of male/female used for sex is clearly denoted as separate

 

(Also I feel really uncomfortable referring to myself as anything besides female or girl)

And I know many trans women and transfeminine people who are really uncomfortable being referred to as anything besides female, girl, or woman and get very upset when other people refer to them as being "male bodied" or having "male sex organs" or similar statements because they do not identify as "male". Therefore, there is nothing about them that is "male" because they are not male. Same thing goes for trans men and transmasculine people; they generally don't want to be referred to as "female" in any way because it makes them feel extremely uncomfortable. Attempting to misgender trans people by saying that their "sex doesn't match their gender" is transphobic, can potentially be very triggering, and can be considered an act of violence if you've publicly outed them with your statements. Try looking up the rates of violent acts against trans people, particularly trans women, after they've been forcibly outed. You'll be shocked and appalled by the things people will do to others when they found out that someone isn't cisgender. People can choose to identify themselves as whatever gender they'd like; you do not get to dictate that to them. For all intents and purposes, "gender" and "sex" mean the same thing. The whole "but, biology!" argument is pretty meaningless when you're discussing someone's identity.

 

For an example that people might understand a bit better, let's look at human sexuality. It's not the same thing as gender identity and the example doesn't totally fit but it's the best non-gender related example I can think of to explain this to people who seem to have trouble understanding gender. I personally identify as either lesbian or queer (I'm comfortable with both terms) and do not identify as heterosexual in any capacity. However, someone could say "Well you can't be anything except heterosexual because humans can only naturally reproduce via heterosexual sex and the point of sex is reproduction so you have to be a heterosexual. So there! Biology!" but that doesn't make me a heterosexual because I don't identify as one. Yes, humans only naturally reproduce via what is generally referred to as heterosexual sex. However, biology does not get to override my sexual identity; I'm still not a heterosexual even though that's the only way I can reproduce (which I will never be interested in doing but that's not the point here). To connect that back to gender identity, let's say someone fits within the traditional biological definition of "female" but identifies as male. That person is then male because they identify as such. Your so-called "biological" definition of gender does not take precedence over that person's identities and terms they use to describe those identities. Moreover, you have no right to know anything about the biological makeup of a person's body. If someone chooses to share that information with you of their own free will, that's fine. But you do not ever get to make them tell you and you do not ever get to share that information with others. If I walked up to a cis woman and asked "Hey, tell me about your reproductive organs! You've got a vagina, right?" she would be quite understandably freaked out and upset. Same thing goes for trans people, if you ask "Hey, so is your sex male or is your sex female" is transphobic, incredibly invasive, and doesn't make sense because sex and gender are really the same thing.

 

tl;dr The idea of "gender is between your ears and sex is between your legs" is a very popular one but it's not correct and it invalidates the identities of trans people by giving the false idea that trans people aren't really the gender they say they are.

[MasterWeavile898]

"sex doesn't match their gender" is transphobic,

*Giggles like a stupid-ass ** I'm pointedly transphobic anyway (Actually that is a thing with me, I can try to explain tomorrow when I'm more awake)

 

But okay, seriously, no I would not like being referred to as male. That doesn't change the fact that, at least for now, that's what my body is. As much as I absolutely abhor it, it's undeniably true. Denying the truth for personal, or even mass, convenience is simply naive. Living in denial of the truth won't solve any of the issues you bring up, it will simply hide them from view

 

-10 points for overusing "deny"

 

P.S. FYI I didn't say we should look at people's sex over their gender, it's not something we should seek out

[hydrargyrum]

For me, the idea and connotation of female and woman are inextricably tied together (same for male and man, and sex and gender). We use these words interchangeably often enough that saying we can separate them when talking about trans people isn't so simple. The one simple fact of the matter is that the VAST majority of trans people say that being called male when they're women or female when they're men is hurtful and triggering. As a cis woman, personally, I feel that my female-ness stems from my identity as a woman NOT the fact that I have a uterus, vagina, and breasts, etc.

 

It bothers me on other levels, too, since the distinction doesn't even really seem that necessary. AFAB/AMAB are getting well known enough that it's easy to use them instead, and it doesn't misgender (since they're based only on what one would assume right after birth; it's about what other people thought, not what their actual identity is).

 

Also, I feel like the "but health distinctions" isn't a good argument, either. In general, I'd say anatomy specific health concerns fall into two broad categories:

 

1) Specific concern for a lot of people

For instance, breast cancer awareness, testicular cancer, menstruation etc. Generally, if you're addressing a concern like this, you don't need to talk about breast cancer AND menstruation at the same time, because they just don't really affect each other, even though generally only AFAB people experience both. This means it's pretty easy to just be specific: address people with breasts, people with testes, people who menstruate, etc. Euphemisms aren't necessary, so if they're hurting people, why not also work on destigmatizing words that describe our bodies?

 

2) General concern for a specific person

For instance, checking for early symptoms or trying to discover the cause of apparent symptoms. This is what the "male/female" box on health forms is part of. With an individual, they should be able to communicate their specific circumstances anyways, but even beyond that, I'm pretty sure trans women and cis men will probably STILL have different health concerns, even though they were born with the same anatomy. HRT can have very significant effects. Trans status still needs to be known to properly diagnose a patient, so why make them identify as something they're not?

[Fuzzbucket]

Just passing by to point out that men CAN die of breast cancer, just as women can - leaving aside all the rest of this, on which - while I support people's feelings and self-identifications, I do not feel qualified to judge/comment in detail. Men have breasts too.

 

Too many men have thought it was impossible and not seen a doctor in time....

Edited October 10, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[Shienvien]

AFAB/AMAB

I find using abbreviations for humans in general to be a very unlikable and borderline disturbing practice. I do not want to be called an "AFAB", thank you very much. Moreso because it holds rather strong implications which simply aren't true for me and most people I know; if to be used at all, these particular expressions should be restricted to people who were born intersex/hermaphrodites, and went through "corrective" surgery shortly after birth. Else they don't really make linguistic sense for me. Male/female refer to sex, not gender. (And sex/gender should be considered separate on all occasions, not just in case of transfolk.)

[MasterWeavile898]

I second the acronym thing

 

Oh, and just FYI, I'm really uncertain how to deal with intersex people and if someone has any suggestions I'm open to hearing them

 

I do have to agree with F.ury on one point. I still want to refer to myself as female, even though that doesn't match with my body. And restricting male/female to sex only removes that option from me. Yes my body is male, but I am not any less female because of it. And I will take offense to someone referring to me as male

 

There's really no reason for anyone to know that I'm sexually male unless they're going to be seeing it, but that doesn't mean I'm not (trust me, I've spent multiple weekends holed up in my room crying about it, it's definitely true)

Edited October 10, 2014 by MasterWeavile898

[hydrargyrum]

Why does using abbreviations to describe yourself/people seem negative? I have to say, that's the first time I've heard some say that about AFAB/AMAB. To me, and most other people I've talked to, they seem pretty neutral.

 

Moreso because it holds rather strong implications which simply aren't true for me and most people I know; if to be used at all, these particular expressions should be restricted to people who were born intersex/hermaphrodites, and went through "corrective" surgery shortly after birth. Else they don't really make linguistic sense for me. Male/female refer to sex, not gender. (And sex/gender should be considered separate on all occasions, not just in case of transfolk.)

 

I believe you're thinking of CAFAB/CAMAB (coercively assigned female/male at birth). I have definitely seen people use this out of context (use it instead of AFAB/AMAB when referring to non-intersex trans people). At least that's what I've always heard. I mean, everyone is assigned a gender at birth. The doctor says "it's a girl/boy" and they write a gender on your birth certificate, so you have been assigned a gender.

 

Edit to add:

Male/female refer to sex, not gender.

The entire point of this conversation is that using male/female to refer to anatomy rather than gender is hurtful and probably outdated. The way we use these terms has evolved. That's why AFAB/AMAB are used instead. That was literally my whole point in my last post. You just stating that over again is a bit tautological to your entire argument.

Edited October 10, 2014 by hydrargyrum

[Switch]

wait why is AFAB/AMAB or DFAB/DMAB problematic now??? i and several other trans people ive seen have been using it for a while with no problem. i used to see FTM/MTF used a lot but then that had some unfortunate implications so i've mostly seen it dropped.

 

ive never had a problem using abbreviations for myself?? i mean it means the same thing as 'assigned female at birth', which i was, it's just easier to type. o_o

im so confused

 

 

also ive never seen anybody use male/female when exclusively referring to sex??? like you guys are a first. im male, i was designated a female at birth. pls.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Switch

[Shienvien]

wait why is AFAB/AMAB or DFAB/DMAB problematic now???

It is dehumanizing and differentiating (so comes across as inherently discriminatory).

 

(I intensely dislike like the term typed out, too, for the record... Vile thing.)

 

There's really no reason for anyone to know that I'm sexually male

Indeed, there is no reason to a random person to know. What use do they have of the knowledge? Sex - unless we are speaking partners in a physical relationship or similar - is not really relevant in far most circumstances.

In many languages which do not use gendered labeling (he/she as opposed to general xe/ze/singular they), gender doesn't become relevant all that often, either ... English regrettably does make the distinction, and so there is the matter of pronouns and such (it would at the very least be a long time until the entire mass of more than a billion people discard the gendered pronouns).

For the most part, the gender labels are there (or should be there) to let people identify themselves to both their own selves and others around.

 

- Somewhere there there is the matter of which bathroom or dressing room one should use, but that's perhaps a topic to be unearthed a bit later.

 

(Male/female is generally sex- or structure-only in most fields; in common use people sometimes confuse it. Then again, people confuse a lot of things in common use...)

[Obscure_Trash]

I see now Sock! Thanks. c:

 

It's just a weird topic that needs definition but at the same time can't really fit into any definition. Maybe it will eventually just be "people with vaginas" and "people with penises" and "people with both vaginas and penises"? o3o

 

What do you think it *should* be like and/or *will* be?

o3o

 

Yeah, if we really need to sort people by their genitalia (and depending on situation of course!).

 

Hm, kind of a hard question since we're so far away from things I would like to see. I can't say anything on will - we've decades of rights struggles behind us in half a dozen different categories and things seem to only get hidden better but not really fixed. But as for should...

I'd like for babies to not be gendered. Gender should be something you grow into. Either neutral use of pronouns or just always switching up pronouns so kids can begin to see how each feels. Then whenever, they can just start asking for a specific pronoun or something.

I'd also like names to be considered gender neutral.

I want people to be able to experiment and be fluid and be comfortable. o3o

 

~

 

I'm having too hard a time reading back over posts about "biological sex" and just can't make it through it. So I'll just leave a general question that will hopefully explain what I'm trying to say a little better: Why is it so important to folks that penis = male and vagina = female? How does this help you? What would change if we stopped making that connection?

 

lmao!

 

I'm glad we can amuse each other. xP

 

I'm pointedly transphobic anyway (Actually that is a thing with me, I can try to explain tomorrow when I'm more awake)

 

That's... not a good thing.

 

I find using abbreviations for humans in general to be a very unlikable and borderline disturbing practice. I do not want to be called an "AFAB", thank you very much.

 

These abbreviations are to draw attention to the fact that our aggressively-gendering binary system is harmful and also ridiculous.

 

However, everyone has a right to be referred to as they wish. If you don't want to be referred to as AFAB, that's your choice. I just hope you leave others the same choice to label themselves that if they wish. =3

 

(Also, by your last post, I'm wondering what you think the abbreviation stands for? I'm not quite sure how the abbreviation itself is vile and not the thing it is protesting against.)

[Switch]

It is dehumanizing and differentiating (so comes across as inherently discriminatory).

 

(I intensely dislike like the term typed out, too, for the record... Vile thing.)

 

why???? like i said a lot of Actual trans people use them??

and why do you dislike the term? i was assigned a female when i was born. that is what happened.

[MasterWeavile898]

It has to do with my issues with the term in the first place. It's used extremely negatively and often demonizes people

 

But in addition, I feel it's tossed around far too much as a "you disagree with my opinion on transgenderism and thus you are transphobic" Which really, really grates on my nerves because it's counterproductive. On top of this, it has no real definition (if it did it would refer to a literal phobia, and I've never seen it used in that light) so there's no real way to say "that's the wrong way to use that word" when someone uses it simply for their opinion

 

Which is to say, a lot of people just use it as an insult, and you can't call them out on it because there's no way to say they used it incorrectly

 

And thus, since a lot of people simply use the term transphobic to refer to someone who disagrees with them on the subject of transgenderism, and I disagree with anyone using the term transphobic, which is part of the subject of transgenderism, I am transphobic

 

It's kind of a protest of a term that I abhor? I guess in a manner I'm trying to take some of the pain from those who get called transphobic for no real reason by taking the term upon myself... Which is kind of out of character for me, but you'll see why it's so important to me in the next paragraph

 

Oh, and I do suppose a large portion of why I dislike it is because when I was questioning early on, I got called it a lot. I even at first refused to accept my transgenderism because of it. And while that's a personal thing, it does make me wonder how many people who might have been accepting, or even trans themselves, have been turned away by someone tossing a meaningless (see: definition) term in their face for not understanding something

 

If someone says something that you feel is wrong or demeaning to trans people, maybe instead of saying it's transphobic you could try to explain why they shouldn't think that way. And no, doing both doesn't work, people don't listen to people who insult them

 

TL;DR I don't like the term

[Shienvien]

Re: "But people use those terms."

 

That people use those terms - even about themselves - does not mean that they are not inherently offensive; for instance I've met a Rroma who referred to *oneself* as a G----. As our resident Shiny has repeatedly said in another thread, the G---- word not only incorrectly places her people, but has also been a slur ever since it was created.

 

These abbreviations are to draw attention to the fact that our aggressively-gendering binary system is harmful and also ridiculous.

Sex != gender. Sex is just the description of the physical body; it cannot be assigned, only identified and - typically surgically - altered. Gender is what gets assigned. Male/female refer to sex, not gender.

 

What I advocate here is disconnecting sex and gender further. Males == people with penises, testicles, and generally proportionally narrower hips and less fat deposit in the chest department. It is just the shorter way of saying all that. Nothing more, and ideally, people should remember and understand that it is nothing more.

Man? Man is something different, and also something everyone should be able to define for (and, if they find it appropriate for them, label themselves as) themselves. Male != man.

 

Re: Trans people and their bodies. Some transfolk are uncomfortable in their body (and by all rights, it should be recognized as an actual condition, and not something that won't just "magically go away if you learn to love your body" or some such), other are fine with their current physical attributes as long as no one questions their right to be men/women/other.

[Obscure_Trash]

I've posted my question/s several times now for those stubbornly sticking to "biological sex = male or female" as a concept several times now. Please read them and answer them. I am genuinely trying to get somewhere here, but this is not going to get anywhere if people keep skipping over my points. Just repeatedly trying to tell me "it's okay to be transphobic this way because it's just sex not gender" isn't getting us anywhere because I fundamentally disagree and have posted several times trying to explain why and to get us all to think about what gender really means and what terms are actually useful to us for biology/medicine.

 

I'll repeat this as much as necessary: using "biologically male" and "biologically female" is harmful to many trans and nonbinary people. So why do you think those terms and concepts are still so important? What happens if you disconnect this idea that your biology has a gender? How does this harm you?

 

What I advocate here is disconnecting sex and gender further. Males == people with penises, testicles, and generally proportionally narrower hips and less fat deposit in the chest department. It is just the shorter way of saying all that. Nothing more, and ideally, people should remember and understand that it is nothing more.

Man? Man is something different, and also something everyone should be able to define for (and, if they find it appropriate for them, label themselves as) themselves. Male != man.

 

What this boils down to is "you can call yourself a woman, but you're still a male" which is transphobic and harmful to trans and nonbinary people, as many of them have been trying to tell us. It doesn't matter if you "disconnect gender from sex" if you are still gendering sex. That is my entire problem with this setup. There is absolutely no reason to gender biology. Not even biology is as binary as the society wants us to believe.

 

It has to do with my issues with the term in the first place. It's used extremely negatively and often demonizes people

 

So you're more upset over people using the word transphobic than you are people being transphobic?

 

I always see people trying to tone police "you have to explain!" but ignoring all the times people do explain. I've explained several times in this thread and only about one or two people have actually read my posts and responded to my initial points, even if they still disagree with me.

[MasterWeavile898]

Yes I am, because you're just tossing the word transphobic out as a weapon to assist in making opinions that differ from yours seem negative. You or "many trans people" do not define what is and isn't "transphobic." As I said, it can't be properly defined and thus has no real meaning outside being an insult

 

And like I said, it's counterproductive. I want people to learn and accept me. And that isn't going to happen if they come into places like this and read a bunch of contradictory posts all saying that differing opinions are transphobic. Or they start talking to someone who's immediate response to anything they say that's "incorrect" is "no that's bad and transphobic"

 

EDIT: Oh and if you don't get me on the contradictory thing. You yourself have said mixing sex and gender is transphobic, which is the exact opposite of what you're saying now

 

Now then, you want reasons? Let's try this: Gender is based on sex. It's an irrevocable fact. Gender exists purely as a societal construct around the fact that people have different parts and some people don't associate with the parts they are given. If you strip away sex you strip away gender as well, because gender is defined by sex. Male and female genders (I'll get to nonbinary genders in a minute) are defined by their sexual counterparts (unless we want to define them by stereotypes?)

 

As for nonbinary genders, those are defined by the fact that they don't fit into the male/female binary. If we remove the definitions for the binary we also remove the definitions for the antithesis

 

And while that may not matter to a very small minority of people who could care less about their gender, most people it's a part of who they are. And for some of us (at least as many as those who couldn't care less) it's literally how we define ourselves. So I'd really rather you not strip me of my identity so that I can ignore the fact that I wasn't given that identity in the womb (And honestly if I wanted I could call you transphobic for trying to strip certain trans people like me of their identities, so case and point for the transphobic thing)

 

And if you really want to disagree, define gender without sex. What makes a woman a woman? Without something to define it, it's no more than a word we call ourselves and we may as well abolish gender and just go back to defining people by their sex

Edited October 11, 2014 by MasterWeavile898

[Switch]

i still haven't gotten a clear explanation as to why DMAB/DFAB are apparently comparable to slurs.......................................

[Obscure_Trash]

Yes I am, because you're just tossing the word transphobic out as a weapon to assist in making opinions that differ from yours seem negative. You or "many trans people" do not define what is and isn't "transphobic." As I said, it can't be properly defined and thus has no real meaning outside being an insult

 

And like I said, it's counterproductive. I want people to learn and accept me. And that isn't going to happen if they come into places like this and read a bunch of contradictory posts all saying that differing opinions are transphobic. Or they start talking to someone who's immediate response to anything they say that's "incorrect" is "no that's bad and transphobic"

 

EDIT: Oh and if you don't get me on the contradictory thing. You yourself have said mixing sex and gender is transphobic, which is the exact opposite of what you're saying now

 

Now then, you want reasons? Let's try this: Gender is based on sex. It's an irrevocable fact. Gender exists purely as a societal construct around the fact that people have different parts and some people don't associate with the parts they are given. If you strip away sex you strip away gender as well, because gender is defined by sex. Male and female genders (I'll get to nonbinary genders in a minute) are defined by their sexual counterparts (unless we want to define them by stereotypes?)

 

As for nonbinary genders, those are defined by the fact that they don't fit into the male/female binary. If we remove the definitions for the binary we also remove the definitions for the antithesis

 

And while that may not matter to a very small minority of people who could care less about their gender, most people it's a part of who they are. And for some of us (at least as many as those who couldn't care less) it's literally how we define ourselves. So I'd really rather you not strip me of my identity so that I can ignore the fact that I wasn't given that identity in the womb (And honestly if I wanted I could call you transphobic for trying to strip certain trans people like me of their identities, so case and point for the transphobic thing)

 

And if you really want to disagree, define gender without sex. What makes a woman a woman? Without something to define it, it's no more than a word we call ourselves and we may as well abolish gender and just go back to defining people by their sex

I'm "tossing" out the word transphobic as an adjective. Simple part of speech. You are taking it as a weapon. I am pointing out what the line of thinking is. It is up to you to do with that what you will.

 

Transphobic is not an insult. =_= I will not accept that at all. It means whomever is being hateful or harmful towards trans people. =_=

 

No, I am not contradicting myself. I said that there is absolutely no reason to gender sex and I have stayed consistent with that, unless you went and looked through months old posts where I had a lot more transphobia issues I hadn't educated myself on yet.

 

No, gender is not based on sex, which is what my questions have been pointing to, my questions that so far have received no answers, unless I missed one in a post I had to skip.

 

How do you know what your gender is? Describe to me. It is not based purely on what genitalia you have or want. To think so is simplifying a complex, confusing concept so far down that it is just plain wrong.

 

What makes you the gender you are? Why do you identify as that?

 

My identification has nothing to do with my gonads. My body is a separate issue from my gender confusion.

 

If you define gender purely by gonads, you are denying the existence of trans people. If vagina = woman and penis = male, then there is nothing else.

 

I haven't stripped anybody of their identity. I have no idea how you identify even. So please explain to me how you identify and how you think I've stripped this away. I have literally repeated over and over again that gender is a useful concept. I have simply repeated time and time again that there is no reason to gender gonads or biology.

I have also repeated several times that if that's how you personally want to call your body, that is fine, but that does not make it a general definition that works for everyone.

 

I really need people to stop picking parts of my posts they disagree with and missing my entire point. =|

 

I have asked time and time again for people to explain to me what makes them sure they are x gender and again have been ignored, yet here is your post trying to pose the same question back at me. *sigh* As said above, my gender has nothing to do with my sex. That's exactly the reason I've been prompting people to think about it because I bet you cannot pinpoint it. As simple as we seem sometimes, no, humans are not actually so simple that gender boils down to our basic biology.

 

And again, I have said several times I have no desire to "abolish" gender and that I myself find it a useful concept. Ungendering biology does not abolish gender. To so strongly gender sex is to be transphobic and that is what I'm trying to get people to think of.

 

How does it really harm you to stop IN GENERAL gendering biology????????? If you want to personally gender your biology, then use whatever labels you want. But that does not apply to everyone as a whole. Again, as I have said several times, many, many trans and nonbinary folks are harmed by gendering biology even if you yourself, however you identify, are not.

 

That people use those terms - even about themselves - does not mean that they are not inherently offensive; for instance I've met a Rroma who referred to *oneself* as a G----. As our resident Shiny has repeatedly said in another thread, the G---- word not only incorrectly places her people, but has also been a slur ever since it was created.

 

I missed this, but that person was probably reclaiming the word, and as they were Rroma, they have every right to do so.

[F.ury]

Now then, you want reasons? Let's try this: Gender is based on sex. It's an irrevocable fact. Gender exists purely as a societal construct around the fact that people have different parts and some people don't associate with the parts they are given. If you strip away sex you strip away gender as well, because gender is defined by sex. Male and female genders (I'll get to nonbinary genders in a minute) are defined by their sexual counterparts (unless we want to define them by stereotypes?)

I'm going to ignore all the reasons why gendering sex can be harmful to many trans people as I feel that Sock has done a really good job explaining this already and just focus on biology for a minute here.

 

First of all, the biological definition of sex doesn't even use the terms "male" and "female". In biology, an organism's sex is defined by the type of gametes that it can produce. This is because many organisms are capable of changing the type of gametes they produce; some change from year to year, some change at a certain age, some change based on social status and dominance, etc. Attempting to classify sex with the terms "male" and "female" doesn't work for many organisms because their life cycles do not agree with the sort of rigid binary that many humans seem to like using.

 

When discussing human biology, a human's sex is either "producer of small motile gametes", "producer of large non-motile gametes", "does not produce any type of gamete", or possibly "producer of both small motile gametes and large non motile gametes" (I know this has been observed in many non-human organisms but I don't know if humans are capable of this). Attempting to gender sex by attaching the terms "male" and "female" based on the type of gametes a human produces does not make sense. Biology is not gendered. You can't "ungender biology" because biology was never meant to be gendered in the first place. Just because it's become popular to assign the terms "male" and "female" to people based on the gametes they produce does not mean that it's correct to do so.