Gender and Gender Identity

[Fizzix]

XY females are comparatively common, for instance, so it doesn't really tell as much...

Nnnnnah I want you to re-read that. Primary (and to a lesser extent secondary; perhaps I should have clarified that secondary is a lesser extent there; I figured it was implied 'cause, you know, secondary) sexual characteristics.

 

So the number of XY-with-a-uterus-and-ovaries-and-also-other-XX-presenting-characteristics (since that's what we're interested in at a doctor, a shortcut for "patient has * bits + * sex-related concerns") is limited to fairly rare cases. I'd be pretty confident as a layman saying that many of those cases are actually due to chimerism. But hey, I could be wrong there, I'm not a doctor.

[TCA]

Yeah, hence the "if sex chromosomes as shortcuts was widespread enough to be meaningful". Since most people aren't karyotyped, it's currently not meaningful because most people don't even know.

[Shienvien]

Nnnnnah I want you to re-read that. Primary (and to a lesser extent secondary; perhaps I should have clarified that secondary is a lesser extent there; I figured it was implied 'cause, you know, secondary) sexual characteristics.

The "perfect" examples of the exact condition I'm referring to are due to two different mutated genes co-occurring in the Y-chromosome (so no, it is not chimerism). Either of those separately is fairly common. Both at once is rare, but still common enough to be significant - as in, there are at least a few hundred people (estimated couple thousand people) like that walking around. Typically, they have been going undiscovered unless they are karyotyped or - in many cases - look deep enough into why they have problems conceiving.

 

And then there is crossingover fails, as ObsessedWithCats mentioned, as well as X females, XXY and XYY males, and so forth. (Which are, admittedly, even more common than what I mentioned. My instance is mostly just much harder to detect if you have just a couple of cells from the person to go by, and no person to look at)

Edited January 29, 2015 by Shienvien

[JavaTigress]

If you want to be honest, using shortcuts that literally use the sex chromosomes when looking for primary (and secondary) sexual characteristics would be way faster than getting into this debate about whether female/woman male/man are sex or gender or both or neither.

 

XX, XY, XO (X0? I'm not familiar with which is used), XXY, XYY, etc. The abnormal chromosomal states will tell you more than just "male" or "female" on a form will.

 

But society says that forms with "sex" or "gender" or whatever are important. I'll select as appropriate to the context. This forum? The context is personal information and identification. "Not Telling" is as close as I can get since I can't even tell myself anymore.

Oddly enough, Fizzix, the XO one applies to me.

 

It refers to Turner's Syndrome.

 

That being said... the parts I have are definitely of the female variety. The issue is mainly that they didn't grow as they ought to have done.; which is to say that for me to ever have a child of my own is... unlikely. In fact, the ONLY reason that I get those 'reminders' each month that were mentioned in a post... is because my hormones come out of a pill. ( Which stinks but I need the meds or I'd have osteoporosis by the time I was thirty years old).

 

I have never considered myself to be 'intersex' or whatever though... although I am certainly not the most feminine of females.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Silverswift

[pony459]

The way I see it gender is in your head and can be outwardly expressed (through pronouns, clothing, etc). and sex is the biological sex you were given at birth, and what hormones and parts your body has. Of course biology can be referred to in multiple ways, but this is just how I like to describe things. I have it easy though, i'm a cisgender female.

[Shienvien]

I have never considered myself to be 'intersex' or whatever though... although I am certainly not the most feminine of females.

X0 (or simply single-X, or Turner's syndrome) are considered female in case of humans. And sadly (or luckily, depending on whether you want children or not), all people with Turner's syndrome are (to my knowledge) always infertile.

 

Hey, and I am not exactly too "feminine" either, even if I am both XX female AND a woman. Nothing wrong with that.

 

(Gender by me will always be defined by what you feel, not how you behave or dress or whatever. Sadly, society tends to be a bit stuck in stereotypes at times, and I've gotten a fair bit hate for not being dainty little ladylike thing.)

[JavaTigress]

X0 (or simply single-X, or Turner's syndrome) are considered female in case of humans. And sadly (or luckily, depending on whether you want children or not), all people with Turner's syndrome are (to my knowledge) always infertile.

 

Hey, and I am not exactly too "feminine" either, even if I am both XX female AND a woman. Nothing wrong with that.

 

(Gender by me will always be defined by what you feel, not how you behave or dress or whatever. Sadly, society tends to be a bit stuck in stereotypes at times, and I've gotten a fair bit hate for not being dainty little ladylike thing.)

ACTUALLY, my sister isn't all that stereotypically feminine, either and SHE is XX female as well.

 

Maybe how we were raised.

 

As far as the Turner's goes, I guess that I am lucky my body accepts the hormone replacement. There are cases whee the person's body DOESN"T.

[Fizzix]

On my drive to work, I came to a conclusion: there are very few occasions that you should be talking about me that you would need to know my preference of pronouns.

• You could be referring to my possessions to someone who is not me. (Try using Fizzix's instead?)
• You could be referring to me to someone who is not me. (Why? Evaluate context and reconsider if my gender identity is important to the context. If it's not, why are you using it? I could be "a friend" or "a moderator" or "someone I know".)
• You could actually want to know what honorific you should use to refer to me. (Am I a sir or a miss? I really don't care. TBH, if you're showing respect by trying to use one, it's good with me?)

• You could be role-playing as me. (... why?)

Edit: to clarify, the point is generally that if you need pronouns to talk about me that are gendered, you are probably not talking about me to me.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Fizzix

[Shienvien]

Somewhat interesting point. If you're talking to a person, you generally refer to them as "you", or in rare occasions (mostly when you want to get their attention), their name or username.

 

Pronouns are indeed, mainly used when talking about a third person ... and in this case, they are predominantly used just so that the identifier (name or username) of the said person would not be repeated over and over ad nauseum. Or because he/she/they/xe/whatever is generally much shorter and easy to pronounce than the identifier.

 

"Shienvien said that in Shienvien's opinion, this kind of labeling puts Shienvien into a category into which Shienvien does not wish to belong."

vs.

"Shienvien said that in her opinion, this kind of labeling puts her into a category into which she does not wish to belong."

[Fizzix]

[shienvien's opinion is]/[shienvien opined]/[shienvien thinks] that gendered pronouns cause uncomfortable and unnecessary categorization (because of gender politics and expectations).

Opinions are inherently personal, so once you've mentioned a name, give the opinion to the name, not a gender.

 

Shienvien dislikes being called "her" because it implies things that are untrue.

Doesn't claim anything about your identity, merely mentions that you don't like being called "her" because of its connotations, etc.

 

IDK. I'm aware I'm being somewhat contrarian in my refusal to use a gendered pronoun (and I do it unintentionally all the time and will be rethinking that practice tbh) in this case, but I'm making a point that in most cases that it really doesn't matter enough to come up casually? IDK.

 

 

[FiveSix]

When describing events that involved me to each other when I'm present my friends will refer to me with third person pronouns. This happens fairly often but since I changed my name and pronouns they do substitute my name in more often.

[Wandering4Ever]

this is kinda sorta on the topic happening in posts above me, but also not...? but it made me think of it because. ... well here.

 

so i go by female pronouns (her, she, ma'am, miss, etc). But I don't always ID as female.. and actually, most days, I don't feel 100% female. Like today. I feel very...... "I am a human that happens to possess a vagina and boobs so I guess Nikki is good and so are female pronouns"-ish. ... if that makes any sense. Like rather than being 100% female, I feel maybe. .. 60% female and 40% nothing.

 

Then there are days that I'm more... 30% female, 60% nothing, 10% male. And while I still prefer the 'her' and 'she', I'd rather be addressed with "Nik" instead of "Nikki". And some of my friend's know this, but I never tell them those days because I don't... I don't want to just be all "Hey, today's a "Nik" day." I dunno. It sounds simple but I hate having to say that so I just. Don't.

 

And I've wanted to try and present as male but... Well. Having no money for a binder and being 'blessed' with huge woman curves and a feminine face... I can't figure out how to 'hide' the female % of me and present as neutral or male ...

....

sorry this is stupidly off topic you guys can continue i just. wanted to get this off my mind too. it's a really brain-foggy day for me -hides under rock-

 

EDIT: also i tend to identify myself as genderfluid because i'm never a solid % of anything but... now i'm starting to wonder if demigirl fits better. ah friggen lobsters I don't even know e-e

Edited January 29, 2015 by Wandering4Ever

[Fizzix]

this is kinda sorta on the topic happening in posts above me, but also not...? but it made me think of it because. ... well here.

 

so i go by female pronouns (her, she, ma'am, miss, etc). But I don't always ID as female.. and actually, most days, I don't feel 100% female. Like today. I feel very...... "I am a human that happens to possess a vagina and boobs so I guess Nikki is good and so are female pronouns"-ish. ... if that makes any sense. Like rather than being 100% female, I feel maybe. .. 60% female and 40% nothing.

 

Then there are days that I'm more... 30% female, 60% nothing, 10% male. And while I still prefer the 'her' and 'she', I'd rather be addressed with "Nik" instead of "Nikki". And some of my friend's know this, but I never tell them those days because I don't... I don't want to just be all "Hey, today's a "Nik" day." I dunno. It sounds simple but I hate having to say that so I just. Don't.

 

And I've wanted to try and present as male but... Well. Having no money for a binder and being 'blessed' with huge woman curves and a feminine face... I can't figure out how to 'hide' the female % of me and present as neutral or male ...

....

sorry this is stupidly off topic you guys can continue i just. wanted to get this off my mind too. it's a really brain-foggy day for me -hides under rock-

Nah, that's totally on topic! We're being a bit silly about pronouns atm is all.

 

I know the feeling tbh. I've got the boobs that do not love being repressed even by a sports bra so at the end of the day it's like behhh. Binding came up as an idea to myself the other day and I'm just like "... nnnnot happening" even though I'd like to present more androgynously.

 

Best I can offer (since I'm weird about texture and compression) is maybe some compression garments/shapewear. They're available in the intimates section for women generally. I've heard of people using the control pantyhose bits, cutting the legs out, and turning it upside-down to use as a cheap binder that isn't as dangerous as some other methods?

 

I've heard a joke about a genderfluid individual and father talking. Dad asked if it was a son-day. "Today's Saturday."

[sparkle10184]

It seems redundant to say "Sparkle told me that Sparkle is going to be going away on vacation so Sparkle won't be able to talk much." vs. "Sparkle told me that xe is going to be going away on vacation so xe won't be able to talk much."

Of course if someone told me that pronouns make them uncomfortable I would refer to them only as their name, but otherwise I don't see the point of not using them...

[Fizzix]

Eh. I'm not saying abolish gendered pronouns entirely. It just (kind of suddenly) strikes me as odd that in a context where you could easily say "Sparkle is going away on vacation and won't be able to talk much," you would insert a gender identity statement.

 

I'm not saying "this is bad" so much as "This is weird. Why do we do this? Can we think about this?"

[JavaTigress]

Eh. I'm not saying abolish gendered pronouns entirely. It just (kind of suddenly) strikes me as odd that in a context where you could easily say "Sparkle is going away on vacation and won't be able to talk much," you would insert a gender identity statement.

 

I'm not saying "this is bad" so much as "This is weird. Why do we do this? Can we think about this?"

The really odd thing is that people do it. ALL. THE TIME. Without even really THINKING about why they do it.

[Shienvien]

I'm not saying "this is bad" so much as "This is weird. Why do we do this? Can we think about this?"

Force of habit? It can be hard to reconstruct the manner you're used to speak in on the fly, and sometimes you might end up with slightly different implications...

 

(Note how you turned the statement that someone relayed you information of a specific kind into the stating of a fact. You don't actually *know* whether Sparkle is going away - you're only quoting xe on what xe said here in this thread.)

Edited January 29, 2015 by Shienvien

[ChocolateIzzy]

I'm cisgender and female c:

[catstaff]

Eh. I'm not saying abolish gendered pronouns entirely. It just (kind of suddenly) strikes me as odd that in a context where you could easily say "Sparkle is going away on vacation and won't be able to talk much," you would insert a gender identity statement.

 

I'm not saying "this is bad" so much as "This is weird. Why do we do this? Can we think about this?"

If only one sentence about Sparkle is used in the conversation, the way you've suggested would work perfectly well. But assuming the conversation continues for whatever reason, pronouns are almost certain to be used. For example:

 

"Catstaff is going away on vacation and won't be able to talk much."

 

"Oh, for how long?"

 

"She said she'd be gone for a couple of weeks."

 

"Lucky her. Wish I had a vacation trip coming up."

 

And as Shienvien said, most of us are quite simply used to gendered pronouns. I'd like to think that the majority of us are willing to try to adjust our pronoun use if someone was to come up to us and say, "Hey, please use xe instead of he or she when speaking of me."

 

At the same time, though, especially for us older folks, using he or she to refer to someone isn't meant as a gender identity statement, it's simply meant to refer to that person. I know I'd never heard of any alternate pronouns before this thread; at best, I'd seen the use of "they" as a singular pronoun to refer to someone that hadn't indicated a gender preference.

 

 

 

 

[AquaTart]

If only one sentence about Sparkle is used in the conversation, the way you've suggested would work perfectly well. But assuming the conversation continues for whatever reason, pronouns are almost certain to be used. For example:

 

"Catstaff is going away on vacation and won't be able to talk much."

 

"Oh, for how long?"

 

"She said she'd be gone for a couple of weeks."

 

"Lucky her. Wish I had a vacation trip coming up."

 

And as Shienvien said, most of us are quite simply used to gendered pronouns. I'd like to think that the majority of us are willing to try to adjust our pronoun use if someone was to come up to us and say, "Hey, please use xe instead of he or she when speaking of me."

 

At the same time, though, especially for us older folks, using he or she to refer to someone isn't meant as a gender identity statement, it's simply meant to refer to that person. I know I'd never heard of any alternate pronouns before this thread; at best, I'd seen the use of "they" as a singular pronoun to refer to someone that hadn't indicated a gender preference.

When it comes to talking about friends, family, or strangers to other people, unless I am comfortable with what they like to be referred, I will usually fall back on using "they". It's something I recently have started to do in the last year or two because of a revelation of my own. I do have to occasionally think about not using "he" or "she" but it's only out of habit with that specific person at the time.

 

It is honestly the easiest way to talk about someone without the constant gendered pronouns. It just feels a lot nicer especially when I find some one I am not quite sure the gender of and want to avoid offending them. And it happens quite frequently!

 

Considering how I feel about myself I would be glad if everyone would do that when referring about me or just in general. (It's almost like a slap in the face when I hear someone emphasize "she" while talking about me. It can be degrading when it seems they are trying to shame me into behaving the way society deems "normal".)

 

I understand that not everyone will understand or ever have the thought cross their mind that something they do out of habit and is an every day occurrence can be hurtful but it most certainly can.

 

I try to not take it personally and never will I lash out at someone ignorant to the problem. It is not anyone's fault if it's just never been brought up before. (After all, in the past it was easy to condemn "different" to death without a second thought) I always take the time to discuss it with someone who is open-minded enough to understand and allow them time to consciously start to think about it.

[JavaTigress]

When it comes to talking about friends, family, or strangers to other people, unless I am comfortable with what they like to be referred, I will usually fall back on using "they". It's something I recently have started to do in the last year or two because of a revelation of my own. I do have to occasionally think about not using "he" or "she" but it's only out of habit with that specific person at the time.

 

It is honestly the easiest way to talk about someone without the constant gendered pronouns. It just feels a lot nicer especially when I find some one I am not quite sure the gender of and want to avoid offending them. And it happens quite frequently!

 

Considering how I feel about myself I would be glad if everyone would do that when referring about me or just in general. (It's almost like a slap in the face when I hear someone emphasize "she" while talking about me. It can be degrading when it seems they are trying to shame me into behaving the way society deems "normal".)

 

I understand that not everyone will understand or ever have the thought cross their mind that something they do out of habit and is an every day occurrence can be hurtful but it most certainly can.

 

I try to not take it personally and never will I lash out at someone ignorant to the problem. It is not anyone's fault if it's just never been brought up before. (After all, in the past it was easy to condemn "different" to death without a second thought) I always take the time to discuss it with someone who is open-minded enough to understand and allow them time to consciously start to think about it.

I think AquaTart brings up a good point here.

 

I believe that the use of gendered pronouns is... 9 times out of 10... a matter of habit.

 

It is what people were taught to use, grew up using and, for MANY people ( Admittedly not ALL), they serve their purpose quite well. This has the consequence that most people that have never been told otherwise use them in situations where they maybe shouldn't. I am not saying this isn't hurtful to the one being misgendered and I am not saying it NEVER happens on purpose, just that more times than NOT it isn't even a thing that crosses people's minds.

 

Like I said, most people probably don't even THINK about WHY they use them.

 

ALSO, as catstaff pointed out, there are a lot of people that aren't even AWARE that other sets of pronouns exist.

 

THOUGH I do also think that all of the above is changing.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Silverswift

[AquaTart]

I think AquaTart brings up a good point here.

 

I believe that the use of gendered pronouns is... 9 times out of 10... a matter of habit.

 

It is what people were taught to use, grew up using and, for MANY people ( Admittedly not ALL), they serve their purpose quite well.  This has the consequence that most people that have never been told otherwise  use them in situations where they maybe shouldn't. I am not saying this isn't hurtful to the one being misgendered and I am not saying it NEVER happens on purpose, just that more times than NOT it isn't even a  thing that crosses people's minds.

 

Like I said, most people probably don't even THINK about WHY they use them.

 

ALSO, as catstaff pointed out, there are a lot of people that aren't even AWARE that other sets of pronouns exist.

 

THOUGH I do also think that all of the above is changing.

I think the problem also lies in the fact that it is for EVERY language, not just our own. There are masculine and feminine words used to describe people and things. It's just how it's always been. If someone is learning how to speak English it probably wouldn't be a good idea to attack them for using "she" or "he" either. They are simply saying what they were taught.

 

It has been ingrained into not only our society but as a whole that there were only two genders. Now it has been made clear that is not the case and so far it is being widely discussed and open to being understood. It will take years for it to be common knowledge between everyone. But I am honestly glad with how quick this generation seems to have broadened their idea of what is considered the norm. (At least in America)

Edited January 30, 2015 by AquaTart

[FiveSix]

There are a lot of languages where there's not even a plural gender neutral third person pronoun, let alone one that's coming into use as a singular.

 

(A note for anyone struggling to convince people to use singular 'they' - the reason 'you' as a singular second person singular pronoun uses plural grammar ('are' instead of 'is') is because, like 'they', 'you' used to be plural only)

[JavaTigress]

I think the problem also lies in the fact that it is for EVERY language, not just our own. There are masculine and feminine words used to describe people and things. It's just how it's always been. If someone is learning how to speak English it probably wouldn't be a good idea to attack them for using "she" or "he" either. They are simply saying what they were taught.

 

It has been ingrained into not only our society but as a whole that there were only two genders. Now it has been made clear that is not the case and so far it is being widely discussed and open to being understood. It will take years for it to be common knowledge between everyone. But I am honestly glad with how quick this generation seems to have broadened their idea of what is considered the norm. (At least in America)

That is true as well.

 

In SOME languages, even inanimate things... like pencils or paper... that have no biological sex are ascribed a gender.

For no reason at all that I can see.

 

Spanish is a good example of this.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Silverswift

[Fizzix]

My post was just to get you thinking about exactly what you're thinking about right now. "Why do we do this?" I'm not saying that we shouldn't use them. Just - why does it matter that it's she or her favorite cereal. It's a thought exercise to promote awareness, not a campaign to remove pronouns. :3

 

(And yeah, I know about Romance languages, etc., stuff that came from Latin using gendered nouns. I took years of French.)